Front Office Football Central - Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

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Cut taxes and government spending by 50% or more

I didn't like this question. I support cutting spending, but I don't support cutting taxes until our national deficit is gone.

I want more nuance in the questions, but pretty much where I would expect. Libertarian on social issues and more liberal on economic issues.

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Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 1819151)

alan - that's right about where I scored, except I was slightly more in towards the center (not on the edge of he box)

I scored as a centrist, but I think it had me a bit more liberal than where I really am because of the type of questions asked and how they were asked. They didn't ask anything to do with some of my more conservative leanings either. I bet a more in depth quiz woudl have me a notch or two to the right or up where I am closer to the center and a little bit closer to libertarian as well I bet.

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Originally Posted by JPhillips

Arles: Do you think you'll really nail me here? Sure, Biden's made bad decisions including IMO the bankruptcy bill. Obama's made bad decisions as well. DOes that make you happy? I've never tried to argue that Obama is perfect, he's just more in line with what I think is important than McCain.

My point is that Biden's "experience" is often on the wrong side of history. It would be like McCain bringing on Jimmy Carter as a VP for his economic fiscal policy.

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As to your specific points, I haven't looked, but Obama probably has more money from high dollar bundlers, but he also has far more total donors than any candidate ever has and a lower per donor amount than any nominee. There's too much money in the system IMO, but it's simply fact that Obama has gotten more people at smaller dollar amounts involved than anyone else ever has.

The bolded part is the point. As a parallel, think of a republican candidate who rails on people who use pot and then gets caught smoking it. Most people don't have a huge problem with someone smoking pot, but because he railed so vehemently against it - it shows a great deal of hypocrisy to use it.

Obama constantly stated early on how Washington insiders were in the pocket of lobbyists and special interests and how public finance was the answer and he was going to change thigns. Then, when a ton of people (and lobbyists and special interests) wanted to support him, he quickly changed his tune and went private financing, gladly taking the big checks from special interests.

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Obama does have more than "very little" bipartisan achievements. He's worked with Republicans and the Independent Democrat on a number of bills.

With Dick Lugar on securing Russian nukes and pandemic preparation

With Joe Lieberman on protecting taxpayer privacy

With Tom Coburn on lobbying reform and no-bid FEMA contracts and making public all government contracts

With Olympia Snow on Veterans Health Care

The problem here is that the republicans here agreed with the democrat agenda. There wasn't any "compromise" from Obama, just a few fairly liberal republicans (or democrats in Lieberman's case) joining on. McCain atleast has shown some compromise on things like campaign finance, tax reform, education, health care, immigration and energy. In fact, I wish on some he would not have compromised. Still, I can't think of any issue where Obama went "centrist" to get a bill passed. It's either you join him or he votes against it. Again, much like with the special interests, the fact that he is like that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is this picture of a "enabler" he has created when his actions in the senate are just the opposite.

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I agree that he is another politician, and I'm not likely to see half of the things done I'd like. Obama, though, is a guy I think can push us in the right direction and maybe pull off something big. I'm not looking for rainbows and bunny rabbits, just a President that has priorities more in line with my own.

Hey, Obama has some ambitious policy plans and if you agree with them I can understand why you want to support him. My issue is that not only do I not agree with many of them, but he has done nothing to show me that he can cultivate the support (either through persuasion or compromise) to get the ideas I do support through congress. As much as McCain has frustrated me on numerous issues, he has atleast been able to accomplish things that many did not think possible through compromise/persuasion.

So, if you like the concept of someone bringing reps and dems together to get things done, I think the records of McCain and Obama are stark contrasts from a results standpoint (to the frustration of many conservatives in McCain's case).

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1819156)

I don't feel this hardcore libertarian, but hopefully it provides context to my ramblings in this thread.

I'm more hardcore than you. :p

I'm fine with disagreements on policy, and I'm fine with believing that McCain will be a better President. I think some of your criticism of Obama applies equally to McCain and using those points is a way to cover up the real issues.

I do want to touch on the idea of bringing people together. First, as a snarky aside, if you want to say the Democratic agenda is securing Russian nukes, pandemic preparation, protecting taxpayer privacy, lobbying reform, regulating no-bid FEMA contracts, making public all government contracts, and Veterans Health Care, I think the Dems would pll at 70% or higher. Also, Tom Coburn would be a little upset at being called liberal.

The bigger point, though, is that I rarely agree with a splitting the difference approach to policy. I'm all for trading components, say ANWR drilling for higher CAFE standards, but trying to always find a middle ground doesn't accomplish anything IMO. I prefer politicians that have convictions and work with opponents where those convictions meet. Bipartisanship to achieve common goals is great, but bipartisanship for the sake of bipartisanship isn't worth much if you ask me.

This feels like a panic move to me by McCain.

It makes me wonder if he decided, after absorbing the Demmy convention, that he didn't like his choice of finalists (presumably Romney and Pawlenty) and decided to make a gut choice. I also wonder if Palin was his first ("gut") choice or if he may have put a feeler out for someone like Kay Bailey Hutchinson and she was not interested.

Overall, I think Palin will probably be a pretty neutral/non-factor in this election.

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Originally Posted by Kodos (Post 1819164)

Cut taxes and government spending by 50% or more

I didn't like this question. I support cutting spending, but I don't support cutting taxes until our national deficit is gone.

Weirdly phrased.

Although, considering that the site is run by "Advocates for self-government," probably to be expected.

I was surprised by my score:

Not by the libertarian, but by the idea of being a slightly left-of-center libertarian.

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Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1819112)

I'd like to know what role Palin played in the scandal on Miranda. Did she know anything about the project? If so, did she do anything to stop it? I mean, she sounds like she'll be pretty tough against the reavers but that doesn't mean much to me if she helped create them.

Awesome.

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Originally Posted by SFL Cat (Post 1819192)

What a shocker! :p

Hi neighbor!

I kind of think Palin was a good choice. From what I've heard early on, she could solidify McCain's base and maybe draw some Hillary supporters who just wanted to see the first female president.

Look at the size of that flag pin! Nobody can question her patriotism.

It is very heartening to see a majority falling in or near the Libertarian grid. There has to be something to that, you know?

correction of my earlier post. Apparently, the Buffy the Vampire slayer thing was a rumor. Her kid is named Willow, but not based on the character from the show.

Don't know if that'll change anyone's vote or not.

As far as the VP, I think it was almost a process of elimination. Pawlenty and Romney would have been duds. A pro-choice VP was out of the question. And Huckabee was too kooky to be seriously considered. There's the old white guys (like Guiliani, Ridge) but those are out of the question too. That left with Jindal but he's busy. Had to go with a bold/risk choice that appeals to the conservative base.

Personally, I think she brings an interesting dynamic to the race as well. But as I said a little while ago, it has become too partisan to have fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer (Post 1819221)

It is very heartening to see a majority falling in or near the Libertarian grid. There has to be something to that, you know?

The "something to that" is that it's a test designed by libertarians.

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Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1819230)

The "something to that" is that it's a test designed by libertarians.

Nothing wrong with that. :)

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Originally Posted by Buccaneer (Post 1819221)

It is very heartening to see a majority falling in or near the Libertarian grid. There has to be something to that, you know?

But unless its with their voting records, it's kind of a moot point.

From Time.com:

Why McCain Picked Palin - TIME

Quote:

John McCain needs to persuade swing voters that he's willing to take on the Republican establishment. He needs to persuade conservatives that he isn't squishy about social issues. And he needs to close the gender gap. When you think about it, the real surprise about Sarah Palin's selection as his running mate is that it's such a surprise.

Palin may be an obscure 44-year-old first-term governor and mother of five from tiny Wasilla, Alaska, but in many ways she reinforces John McCain's narrative of a maverick conservative crusader. She's risen to power by battling corruption in her own state's Republican establishment, exposing misconduct by the state GOP chairman and challenging the incumbent GOP governor. She's a committed Christian who's pro-life in practice as well as in theory; she recently gave birth to a son that she knew would have Down Syndrome.

But Palin can help McCain through biography as well as resume. She'll be the first woman on a Republican ticket, which the campaign is surely hoping will appeal to Hillary Clinton voters and help reduce Barack Obama's advantage among women. She's a fresh face to counteract Obama's message of change, and she's about as far outside the Beltway as you can get. A child of the middle class with a friendly face and big hair, she is so affable that she once won Miss Congeniality in a beauty pageant. Her son is about to deploy to Iraq. She's an ice fisherman, a moose hunter, a small business owner and a lifetime NRA member. And she shelved her state's pork-laden Bridge to Nowhere that McCain has ridiculed on the trail.

One more point in her favor: In the topsy-turvy election of 2008, the Last Frontier is actually a battleground state — and Palin is Alaska's most popular politician.

There are certainly risks to the choice. Palin's presence will make it awkward for McCain to harp on Obama's inexperience, much less play that attack-dog role herself. She's only served as governor one month longer than Obama's been running for president, and she's argued that her youth helped her clean out corruption in Juneau, echoing an Obama talking point. "The age issue, I think, was more significant in my career than the gender issue; your resume isn't as fat as your opponent's, that kind of thing," Palin told TIME last month. "I don't have 30 years of political experience under my belt but that's a good thing. I've never been part of a good-ol'-boys club."

A journalism major from the University of Idaho, Palin started her political career in 1992 as a Wasilla city councilor. She was elected to the first of her two terms as mayor in 1996, and earned a reputation as "Sarah Barracuda" -- also her nickname as a feisty point guard on her high school basketball team -- for taking on entrenched bureaucrats. After running a strong race for lieutenant governor as an unknown in 2002, she made her mark on Alaska politics as a commissioner of a state oil and gas commission, when she tried to expose GOP officials with improper ties to the industry, and eventually resigned in 2004 after her complaints were ignored.

Palin challenged Governor Frank Murkowski in the Republican primary, and crushed the incumbent on a platform of change and reform. She then defeated the formidable former governor Tony Knowles in the general. But it's a long leap from Juneau to the White House. It's not clear what Palin thinks about foreign policy or many other national issues, though she has criticized the lack of a long-term plan for Iraq. And the top consideration for any candidate for the number-two job is readiness for the number-one job, an issue that may weigh more on voters' minds when the potential number one has just turned 72 years old.

Meanwhile, Palin's strong support for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge will contrast with McCain's muted opposition; she's said she expects McCain to change his mind on the issue, which will create an awkward dynamic no matter what he does. She also surprised Alaska's conservatives by vetoing a bill that would have denied state benefits to same-sex couples (though that might help her appeal to less socially conservative independents). Her profile as a good government crusader may not be such an easy sell, either. She was endorsed in an ad by Senator Ted Stevens, who is now under indictment in a Republican corruption scandal. And she's already embroiled in a mini-scandal that's under investigation by the state senate; Palin's former public safety director has claimed he was fired because he refused to fire a state trooper who was involved in a custody dispute with her sister.

Still, Palin boasts an 80% approval rating. She lived the first three months of her life in Idaho, but Alaskans clearly see this self-described "hockey mom" as one of them, a former Miss Wasilla who worked as a TV sports announcer and helping to run a commercial fishing business before entering politics. Her husband, Todd Palin, is part native Eskimo who works in the oil fields in addition to his fishing business, and is also a champion snowmobiler known in Alaska as the First Dude. In a state where Big Oil is king, Palin has been a staunch drilling supporter while maintaining her independence from the industry. And she impressed a lot of conservative Christians when she carried her son Trig to term despite his genetic tests indicating Down Syndrome. "I'm looking at him right now, and I see perfection," she said after returning to work.

Politically, in a year where the Republican brand is so tarnished, Palin will help McCain make the case that he's a different kind of Republican. It might be his best shot to be America's First Dude.

I think that Palin was a brilliant choice. High risk, high reward. But it reinforces McCain's ethical reform image.

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Originally Posted by Greyroofoo (Post 1819232)

But unless its with their voting records, it's kind of a moot point.

But who should we vote for?

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Originally Posted by Greyroofoo (Post 1819232)

But unless its with their voting records, it's kind of a moot point.

I think it is a matter of educating and advocating libertarian ideals to the voting population, and encouraging those elected or wanting to be elected to not go along with more government growth and the increasing of federal powers.

I like David Gergen and find him one of the more well-reasoned analysts on CNN. But, on the Campbell Brown show, he just said that a big negative for Palin is that she's pro-life and a member of the NRA and won't bring as many pro-choice Hillary voters as Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Wow, there's no way he can think Hutchinson would have been a better VP pick. She may be the only US senator that makes McCain look young and vibrant. Plus, if the abortion issue is your main concern, would you really have gone for McCain anyway? He could have added the 1970-version of "Jane Roe" as his VP and those people still would have not voted for a McCain ticket. The more I listen to all these pro-democrat beltway analysts bash this pick, the more I think it was a very strong pick. It also helps that I lobbied for her a few weeks back in this thread ;)

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Originally Posted by Arles (Post 1819245)

David Gergen. Pro-Democrat. Malfunction. Need input. Need input.

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Originally Posted by Arles (Post 1819245)

Wow, there's no way he can think Hutchinson would have been a better VP pick. She may be the only US senator that makes McCain look young and vibrant.

That would be the last thing his campaign would want. :)

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Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1819246)

David Gergen. Pro-Democrat. Malfunction. Need input. Need input.

That's true. I should have said "pro-Obama". Not all the beltway crew that's in favor of Obama support the democrat rank and file. Thanks for the correction!

As I said earlier, I do like Gergen, but he can't possibly believe what he said above. To put it in another light, if someone stated that his political future was staked to either Palin or Hutchinson as the VP, there's no way he would choose ole' Kay Bailey. He's too politically savvy to do that.

haha, someone already registered vpilf.com

Finished reading the Time article, then did some additional reading.
I didn't think it would be likely but now I'm even less enthused about the ticket than I was before. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by molson (Post 1819060)

Great point, especially with Buffett. One of the smartest financial minds ever knows that the government sucks with money.

Gates' charity does approximately a billion times more good the government would with the equivalent tax revenue.

Buffet is an Obama fundraiser/backer by the way, so I wouldn't make this assumption....

Warren Buffet Backs Obama For President

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Originally Posted by SFL Cat (Post 1819046)

I know you can't be serious...

Neither are you "libbie" friends. See? You're learning.

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Originally Posted by molson (Post 1819057)

So, larrymcg421, are you going to go after flere-imsaho now or are you a hypocrite, and your criticisms only apply to conservatives?

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Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1819067)

Huh?

Apparently I missed the sarcasm tags for you guys.... :lol:

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Originally Posted by MikeVic (Post 1819114)

I had to read this twice. :D

Same here, but once I did, it was full of win! :D

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Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 1819274)

Finished reading the Time article, then did some additional reading.
I didn't think it would be likely but now I'm even less enthused about the ticket than I was before. Sigh.

I know you're pretty strongly pro-choice, but I didn't think you cared enough for it to be a make/break issue. Is it the lack of experience?

hmm..same spot as usual for me...

How do you all feel about her having a kid that's less than a year old and she's trying to get elected Veep? I mean, I know she's an independent woman and stuff. But 5 kids, with a working husband? How is that going to connect? Especially a newborn with a disability?

When she got off stage today, did anyone notice that she didn't even acknowledge the kid? Apparently one the daughters? was carrying the kid or maybe it was a babysitter...but that's gotta be traumatic for a newborn for a crowd of that many people.

Though it was a McCain rally, so at least it's not like an Obama rock show.

But I wondered legit about how that's going to play. I listened to talk radio on the way to Chicago this evening and it seems the right wing pundits love the pick, while wingbats like Michael Savage hate the pick because it kills whatever McCain advantage over Obama vis a vis experience.

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Originally Posted by Dark Cloud (Post 1819331)

But I wondered legit about how that's going to play.

FWIW, my wife mentioned that point with a very disapproving tone within the first hour of the pick being announced.

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Originally Posted by Crapshoot (Post 1819297)

I know you're pretty strongly pro-choice, but I didn't think you cared enough for it to be a make/break issue. Is it the lack of experience?

The experience thing bugs the hell out of me and I believe it was a poorly thought out giveaway of the #1 factor in McCain's favor (or more specifically the overwhelming reason I don't want Obama anywhere near the White House except with a tour group). But that's not what shoved me so far back today.

I've already had to swallow hard to deal with RINO McCain. Getting stuck with a governor who vetoed the blockage of non-married partner benefits legislation is damned near too much for me to stomach frankly. And yes, I read the deeper background & her reasoning behind the decision & while that makes it less offensive, it still ultimately plays to me like a bad call. Bordering on unforgivably bad.

Between McCain's weakness on immigration and this, I'm starting to wonder again if it really makes much difference which party presides over ... well, I'm bordering on a real rant here so I'll stop there.

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Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1819230)

The "something to that" is that it's a test designed by libertarians.

+100

This isn't a quiz - it's a cleverly designed tool used to influence people into identifying themselves as libertarian. The questions couldn't be more biased towards libertarian ideals. To score as a conservative in that quiz, iyou'd have to: (1) want to abolish sex for adults (2) want the gov't to "censor speech..." (3) reinstate the draft...

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Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper (Post 1819365)

You say that like those are bad ideas????

A local blogger is getting nationwide attention as he had been promoting Palin for VP since early 2007

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Brickley's first post for his online blog, Draft Sarah Palin For Vice President, said he was "considerably less than thrilled" with other possible VP candidates being tossed around. Assuming former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani would win the GOP nomination, he figured the perfect running mate would be: "a(n) energetic, young, fresh face who will energize the electorate, not connected to the current administration, pro-life, pro-gun, a woman or minority to counter Hillary or Obama and put to rest the idea that America only elects white males."

After some research, Brickley concluded Palin fit the description. He filed frequent updates to the blog, often noting Palin's appearances in the media and going out of his way to note he has no connection to the governor. Some blog posts attracted hundreds of comments from readers, and it inspired others to start Web pages along the same lines.

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Originally Posted by Arles (Post 1819264)

As I said earlier, I do like Gergen, but he can't possibly believe what he said above. To put it in another light, if someone stated that his political future was staked to either Palin or Hutchinson as the VP, there's no way he would choose ole' Kay Bailey. He's too politically savvy to do that.

Not to mention that I've heard McCain and Kay Bailey can't stand each other.

Quote:

With all due respect again to Governor Palin, she’s been a governor for two years, she’s been able but undistinguished. I don’t think people could really name a big, important thing that she’s done. She was mayor of the 10,500th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Wasilla, Alaska it’s smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona; north Las Vegas or Henderson, Nevada. It’s not a big town. So if he were to pick Governor Palin, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States?

Who said it?

No one, actually - but if you replace Sarah Palin with Tim Kaine - it's Karl Rove.

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Originally Posted by molson (Post 1819236)

But who should we vote for?

Hell , thats easy..the geriatric and the hot chick!

Is there going to be a "None of the Above" choice on Nov 4th?

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Originally Posted by flere-imsaho (Post 1819416)

Palin was for the "Bridge to Nowhere" before she was against it.

DNC is already faxing out its talking points? Cool! :p

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Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker (Post 1819417)

Hell , thats easy..the geriatric and the hot chick!

heh...

Choice No 1. Geriatric and the Hot Chick

Choice No 2. Empty Suit and the Motormouth

Choce No 3. None of the Above