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JPhillips 10-07-2019 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3252708)
Ally in name only these days. Erogan has been real cozy with Putin.

Regardless, another huge win for Putin.


But the name matters. We're still obligated to come to their defense as they are ours. My pessimistic prediction of what happens over this ends with Trump withdrawing from NATO.

SackAttack 10-07-2019 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252691)
He had me at "great and unmatched wisdom."


Pretty sure "if you do anything I decide I don't like I'll destroy your economy" blasted for the world to see is an act of war, and only Congress can declare war.

Add another one to the list of impeachable offenses.

JediKooter 10-07-2019 01:27 PM

One things for sure, Trump is good at destroying things...steaks, airlines, casinos, universities, marriages...

tzach 10-07-2019 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252691)
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 7, 2019
He had me at "great and unmatched wisdom."



this sounds so much like a quote that could come from a Civilization game

PilotMan 10-07-2019 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack (Post 3252717)
Pretty sure "if you do anything I decide I don't like I'll destroy your economy" blasted for the world to see is an act of war, and only Congress can declare war.

Add another one to the list of impeachable offenses.



It is nearly the exact thing that even 10 years ago would have come from Lil' Kim and Ahmadinejad would have spouted off and we would have laughed and laughed at the crazy mad man with his delusions of grandeur.

NobodyHere 10-07-2019 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3252677)
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/07/polit...uit/index.html

Chances of Twitter Rant: Extremely High

Grab Popcorn and Take Cover


Looks like a stay was ordered

Edward64 10-07-2019 10:00 PM

I'm all for bringing the troops home from Syria and Iraq but there has to be a better way than to just desert allies.

This looks like Trump's "line in the sand" where Turkey will likely cross it and Trump won't do much.

Edward64 10-07-2019 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tzach (Post 3252720)
this sounds so much like a quote that could come from a Civilization game


Hah, that's a good one.

Atocep 10-07-2019 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3252757)
I'm all for bringing the troops home from Syria and Iraq but there has to be a better way than to just desert allies.

This looks like Trump's "line in the sand" where Turkey will likely cross it and Trump won't do much.


We had the Kurds remove border fortifications and fall back in order to create a safe zone. Then a month later we bailed on them and let Turkey attack. It's sickening what we did here.

NobodyHere 10-07-2019 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3252761)
We had the Kurds remove border fortifications and fall back in order to create a safe zone. Then a month later we bailed on them and let Turkey attack. It's sickening what we did here.


Yeah this is what gets me if all this is right and reports are also saying that Turkey is bombing Kurdish areas.

I've generally felt that we should get out of Syria (and Afghanistan for that matter) and I know that a clean break is unreal.

But this just feels like Trump just watched Revenge of the Sith and wanted to use Order 66.

Edward64 10-07-2019 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3252765)
But this just feels like Trump just watched Revenge of the Sith and wanted to use Order 66.


My guess is Occam's Razor says it was because he was PO'd with all the impeachment mess and so he went into the call without really thinking things through (or listening to advice), played it by ear (unprepared), and wanted to distract by coming up with something else the MSM can chase instead of impeachment.

Unfortunately, his closest allies (e.g. Fox News etc.) are all telling him it was a bad decision. So he is probably in a worse mood now.

And in the meantime, nothing much happening in NK or China.

JPhillips 10-08-2019 08:25 AM

The State Dept is refusing to let the Ambassador to the EU testify before congress.

Thomkal 10-08-2019 03:58 PM

Senate Intelligence Committee releases report on social media influence on the 2016 election. Somehow they found out the Internet Research Association (IRA). a Russian group, celebrated Trump's win by opening a bottle of champagne and toasting. "We made America great again."


Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

GrantDawg 10-08-2019 04:16 PM

The White House releases a letter stating they will no longer be giving anything to congress, saying the impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional. They are basically saying congress has no oversight power.

JediKooter 10-08-2019 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3252833)
The White House releases a letter stating they will no longer be giving anything to congress, saying the impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional. They are basically saying congress has no oversight power.


Soooo, checks and balances are now unconstitutional? So how soon before he declares himself Emperor of America?

Atocep 10-08-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3252833)
The White House releases a letter stating they will no longer be giving anything to congress, saying the impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional. They are basically saying congress has no oversight power.


It's a delay tactic and an attempt to paint it as a partisan witch hunt as they did Mueller Report. If this moves as quickly as Dems would like it to its more difficult for the White House to counter punch while the longer drags out the more likely the public is to get tired of it and turn against it.

JPhillips 10-08-2019 05:28 PM

Yeah, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the GOP position is now that the President can't be investigated, can't be indicted, and can't be impeached.

cuervo72 10-08-2019 05:34 PM

So, wait - does Matt Gaetz actually think "kangaroo court" has anything to do with Captain Kangaroo??

thesloppy 10-08-2019 05:35 PM


JediKooter 10-08-2019 05:51 PM

I think Australia should challenge trump to a fight with a kangaroo.

Atocep 10-08-2019 07:05 PM

I think this article has become more relevant now than it was just a year ago.

How Congress Stopped Working — ProPublica

Chief Rum 10-08-2019 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 3252836)
Soooo, checks and balances are now unconstitutional? So how soon before he declares himself Emperor of America?


Lathum once brought up the possibility of Trump refusing to leave office, which I put down as conspiracy theorist thinking, but for a moment, just consider if it happened.

Would there be another civil war?

Thomkal 10-08-2019 07:49 PM

I think the House has to start using their power to arrest people who resist subpoenas. Start with the ones that have already done so, then subpoena every high-level White House adminstrator and arrest them too.


I think violence is more than likely to happen now and probably against both parties.

Edward64 10-09-2019 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3252848)
I think the House has to start using their power to arrest people who resist subpoenas. Start with the ones that have already done so, then subpoena every high-level White House adminstrator and arrest them too.

I think violence is more than likely to happen now and probably against both parties.


If they ignore or refuse to testify and get sent to jail, can Trump pardon them?

I do agree that violence is more likely to happen. Per my other post of whether they should do impeachment proceedings now or wait till 2Q to better impact the elections ... I think they should do it now, get it over as soon as possible - win, lose or draw.

Edward64 10-09-2019 07:26 AM

In addition to Trade & IP, "freedom of speech" issues are coming to the forefront with China.

I get China blasting Apple on app to aid/track protesters, but NBA or Blizzard comments, criticisms etc. is an overreach. Where does it end, can't say anything negative at all about China?

I do want Trump to continue course and play hard ball with China but he is weakened, distracted etc. Unless China's economy crashes they have the luxury of waiting it out since they have Premier for life. It makes it more likely for Trump to cut a deal (any deal) and call it a win.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/09/stoc...ade-talks.html
Quote:

Bloomberg News reported, citing an official, China is prepared to accept a partial trade deal as long as no more tariffs are imposed by President Donald Trump.

The report added that Beijing would offer non-core concessions like purchases of agricultural products in return, but not budge on major sticking points between the two nations.

The unnamed official said, however, negotiators were not optimistic about securing a broad agreement that would fully end the trade conflict between the world’s two largest economies. Both sides are set for high-level trade negotiations in Washington on Thursday.

Lathum 10-09-2019 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252847)
Lathum once brought up the possibility of Trump refusing to leave office, which I put down as conspiracy theorist thinking, but for a moment, just consider if it happened.

Would there be another civil war?


I think it more likely a foreign power, China and/or Russia, invades us while we have a weakened government with a contested President.

Next Christmas we may all be speaking mandarin.

Chief Rum 10-09-2019 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3252877)
I think it more likely a foreign power, China and/or Russia, invades us while we have a weakened government with a contested President.

Next Christmas we may all be speaking mandarin.


Extremely unlikely. Neither of those countries have a ghost of a chance against the U.S. Navy, which is immensely larger and more technologically advanced than any other force by a wide margin.

And that's beside the point that, one, neither has anything to gain from the move as a net goal, and two, doing so woild immediately unite and radicalize Americans (armed Americans, generally) against one common enemy.

Of course, you're probably joking. I think.

albionmoonlight 10-09-2019 08:27 AM

There's no need for a foreign power to actually invade us. As Chief Rum points out, that comes with a lot of downsides.

All they need to do is what they have been doing--convince a large portion of Americans that they are better off with a foreign government controlling the country via a puppet GOP than letting the Dems be in charge.

That's actually working really well for them. If I were China/Russia, I'd just keep doing it.

Lathum 10-09-2019 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252879)
Extremely unlikely. Neither of those countries have a ghost of a chance against the U.S. Navy, which is immensely larger and more technologically advanced than any other force by a wide margin.

And that's beside the point that, one, neither has anything to gain from the move as a net goal, and two, doing so woild immediately unite and radicalize Americans (armed Americans, generally) against one common enemy.

Of course, you're probably joking. I think.


Not joking at all.

Do I think that is going to happen, no. Do I think it could happen? Yes. It’s clear we have a compromised leader on the White House. Why is it such a stretch our two biggest enemies wouldn’t take advantage of that to destroy us? I mean, what’s Russia’s end game in all of this?

Thomkal 10-09-2019 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3252875)
If they ignore or refuse to testify and get sent to jail, can Trump pardon them?

I do agree that violence is more likely to happen. Per my other post of whether they should do impeachment proceedings now or wait till 2Q to better impact the elections ... I think they should do it now, get it over as soon as possible - win, lose or draw.



I think he can do that, but so far he's pardoned nobody. I think Congress has more power to compell testimony from them, lose many of their 5th amendment rights about self-incrimination. Not a lawyer, but that was the talk when Trump was considering pardons for Manafort and the like. This article was from a couple years ago when Trump was considering using them:


Donald Trump Pardons: How a Pardon Could Backfire | Time

BYU 14 10-09-2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3252882)
Not joking at all.

Do I think that is going to happen, no. Do I think it could happen? Yes. It’s clear we have a compromised leader on the White House. Why is it such a stretch our two biggest enemies wouldn’t take advantage of that to destroy us? I mean, what’s Russia’s end game in all of this?


As treacherous as Russia is, they are really not that stupid. That end game could bring the world to the brink of destruction.

PilotMan 10-09-2019 09:01 AM

The battle of the future is autonomous and technological.

Everything from information and technology to culture and media. This is actually where the US is the weakest. Our tolerance for opposing views versus the monolithic state run narratives will be difficult to overcome. Attacks against power grids and strategic drone strikes will make for a constant, never ending war there is no escape from.

The power of the future is who gets to say the loudest that they won and that they ate right. Battlefields will rarely result is army versus army conflicts.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252847)
Lathum once brought up the possibility of Trump refusing to leave office, which I put down as conspiracy theorist thinking, but for a moment, just consider if it happened.

Would there be another civil war?


I don't think there will be another civil war. In a way, I personally feel like we are kind of in a 'cold civil war', but, if anything, you will have incidents here and there of violence like we have already seen these last few years since trump has been in office.

JPhillips 10-09-2019 09:11 AM

What we are learning is that the system is fragile enough that if the Senate doesn't care, Trump can do whatever he wants. Under these circumstances, there's not much an opposition can do to stop a largely lawless president.

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 09:14 AM

Lots of Executive Time so far this morning.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3252891)
What we are learning is that the system is fragile enough that if the Senate doesn't care, Trump can do whatever he wants. Under these circumstances, there's not much an opposition can do to stop a largely lawless president.


It seems like the fear of not getting re-elected is greater than the problem of a criminal president and doing anything about it. I wonder if we can just Citizen's Arrest trump and take it out of the hands of the cowards in the senate?

NobodyHere 10-09-2019 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 3252894)
It seems like the fear of not getting re-elected is greater than the problem of a criminal president and doing anything about it. I wonder if we can just Citizen's Arrest trump and take it out of the hands of the cowards in the senate?


Mace Windu tried that and it didn't go so well for him.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3252899)
Mace Windu tried that and it didn't go so well for him.


Too soon!

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 12:09 PM

Turkey attacks. The blood of the Kurds is on the hands of every single Trump enabler.

One poll is up to 28% of Republicans supporting removal. Previously Trump-supporting pundits and R politicians appear to be furious with him. Ironic if Trump gets removed for being too much of a pacifist.

albionmoonlight 10-09-2019 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252910)
Turkey attacks. The blood of the Kurds is on the hands of every single Trump enabler.

One poll is up to 28% of Republicans supporting removal. Previously Trump-supporting pundits and R politicians appear to be furious with him. Ironic if Trump gets removed for being too much of a pacifist.


There were good reasons for leaving Turkey. Agree or disagree with them, but they were there. There was also a good way to do it (i.e. with lots of planning and coordination).

Trump did it for bad reasons and in a ham-handed way.

The best analogy I saw is that the front door and a fifth story window are both ways to leave a building, but that does not mean that there isn't a difference between which way you choose.

(EDIT--To be clear, I actually don't know enough to know whether the good reasons for leaving outweighed the good reasons for staying. It is a hard problem that I don't know enough about. My point was only that the President's reasons were not deliberated in the way one would hope.)

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 12:15 PM

Good gracious. Even Franklin Graham.

albionmoonlight 10-09-2019 12:53 PM

Now THIS I can relate to:

Kirk Cousins on call from the President: “Very random” – ProFootballTalk

If I were President, I'd totally use the perk of being able to call random famous people and have conversations with them whenever I want.

I mean, I wouldn't pick Kirk Cousins, but I get the impulse.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 12:54 PM

I wonder if he thought Cousins had some dirt on Biden.

Chief Rum 10-09-2019 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3252882)
Not joking at all.

Do I think that is going to happen, no. Do I think it could happen? Yes. It’s clear we have a compromised leader on the White House. Why is it such a stretch our two biggest enemies wouldn’t take advantage of that to destroy us? I mean, what’s Russia’s end game in all of this?


Russia and China are two very different countries. They don't particularly get along, and if it wasn't for the fact that there is almost nothing of value between the heavily populated east coast of China and the bulk of Russian population west of the Urals, they probably would have fought a war or two by now.

They certainly would not combine to take on the U.S. The U.S. controls the seas and through immense air power much of the land around all seas. Even together, China and Russia could not currently stand up to that. To have any chance of success they would have to somehow get their troops to U.S. borders. They would have to cross by land, over Alaska and Canada. They would have to send the bulk of their very large standing armies to stand a chance in such an invasion.

This would leave their homelands virtually undefended. Hong Kong would break away. Taiwan, Japan and South Korea would likely invade China. Eastern Europe and Turkey would invade Russia. NATO would come out completely on the U.S. side. Canada and Mexico would immediately join up with the U.S. as well.

I don't think you understand the Mount Everest of accomplishments it would take to actually invade the U.S., between geography, technological and financial superiority and a population more than willing to do "warhawk" and die on American ideals. It would be an utter and complete nightmare.

Izulde 10-09-2019 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252917)
Russia and China are two very different countries. They don't particularly get along, and if it wasn't for the fact that there is almost nothing of value between the heavily populated east coast of China and the bulk of Russian population west of the Urals, they probably would have fought a war or two by now.

They certainly would not combine to take on the U.S. The U.S. controls the seas and through immense air power much of the land around all seas. Even together, China and Russia could not currently stand up to that. To have any chance of success they would have to somehow get their troops to U.S. borders. They would have to cross by land, over Alaska and Canada. They would have to send the bulk of their very large standing armies to stand a chance in such an invasion.

This would leave their homelands virtually undefended. Hong Kong would break away. Taiwan, Japan and South Korea would likely invade China. Eastern Europe and Turkey would invade Russia. NATO would come out completely on the U.S. side. Canada and Mexico would immediately join up with the U.S. as well.

I don't think you understand the Mount Everest of accomplishments it would take to actually invade the U.S., between geography, technological and financial superiority and a population more than willing to do "warhawk" and die on American ideals. It would be an utter and complete nightmare.


Not to mention, if doomsday does come, it wouldn't be through a conventional war scenario like this - it'd be through exchange of nuclear arsenals.

Chief Rum 10-09-2019 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izulde (Post 3252918)
Not to mention, if doomsday does come, it wouldn't be through a conventional war scenario like this - it'd be through exchange of nuclear arsenals.


Ironically, I think this would happen, but not by the U.S., Russia or China. They would already have an understanding of the place that road leads to. No, it would far more likely be a small nuclear exchange on the Korean Peninsula or in Kashmir, which would happen because the big boys are off fighting their own war instead of minding the shop.

I think the one nuke the U.S. might consider dropping would be on any invasion force in the Vladivostok region preparing to cross over to Alaska-- but they prob wouldn't bother. Getting a cajillion troops through the inhospitable landscape of Alaska would be a Herculean achievement all on its own.

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 01:51 PM

From #NeverTrump to big-time Trump enabler to #SwearInPenceTonight. An interesting journey




Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 02:40 PM

And now reports that Drudge is flipping on Trump.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252924)
And now reports that Drudge is flipping on Trump.


My thinking is, if the media influencers (breitbart, fox, etc...) of his base are flipping, the more likelihood that the cowards in the senate will finally start to flip. I hope, but, not holding my breath.

NobodyHere 10-09-2019 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 3252925)
My thinking is, if the media influencers (breitbart, fox, etc...) of his base are flipping, the more likelihood that the cowards in the senate will finally start to flip. I hope, but, not holding my breath.


So it wasn't the racism, the sexism, the scams, the paying off of porn stars, the cuddling up to Russia, the lies, the rampant deficit, failure to overturn the ACA, or the Ukraine calls, but the Kurds that may cause conservatives to flip on Trump?


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