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kingfc22 12-21-2012 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015 (Post 2760357)
Instead of the teachers, let's add a gun class.

When you kid goes of to Kindergarten, they get trained in how to use a very basic gun and they get to carry that gun. Then, as they get older, they get trained in how to use more advanced guns. By the time they're in the 12th grade, they'll all be carrying AK-47s and no one will fuck with them then.


That will be covered in the SNL version of the NRA "press conference".

GrantDawg 12-21-2012 11:30 AM

Funny:

Jay Rosen @jayrosen_nyu Exact quote just now from the NRA press conference. "This is the beginning of a serious conversation. We won't be taking any questions."

stevew 12-21-2012 11:30 AM

There are all kinds of support positions throughout the school that could be filled by appropriately trained persons. Throwing a cop in every school when they cost >100k per year each is pretty crazy. But maybe you can augment existing jobs with a bump in pay. For example, when my wife taught in Norfolk they had a retired cop who was an aid. There are probably an endless supply of guys like him that are old enough to retire from a primary career, but might still want to work in the community.

Alan T 12-21-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760347)
Perhaps that training becomes part & parcel of teacher qualification. I mean, if we're going to put everything on the table & all.


My wife is a school psychologist.. and I don't want to see her suddenly having to learn how to use a gun for the first time ever... I pay taxes for others to help keep her and the kids in that school safe.

This in my mind is kind of like saying we should have the mail man also pick up the garbage while going through a neighborhood. Just because they are there already, does not mean they are the right choice for that task.

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 2760350)
Problem with that is individuals who go into that field are looking to teach. They are not looking to become a marksmen.


Many of them also didn't go into the field wanting to work with computers on a daily basis, however ...

Quote:

I can't begin to imagine how a teacher especially one in an elementary school is supposed to teach 20-30 kids while trying to keep a weapon concealed for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 10 months out of the year.

I'm going to guess that you meant "secured" here rather than "concealed".


FTR, I'm not particularly advocating an arm-them-all policy, at least not at this point. I do believe it's a more effective route in case like CT than the NRA proposal this morning or most of the ideas that have been floated about.

Truth is, nothing will be more effective than superior firepower capable of being brought to bear extremely quickly against that particular type of threat. Whether it's something that should be implemented begs the question that no one seems willing to discuss very much right now: the degree of the threat that actually exists.

molson 12-21-2012 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015 (Post 2760357)
Instead of the teachers, let's add a gun class.

When you kid goes of to Kindergarten, they get trained in how to use a very basic gun and they get to carry that gun. Then, as they get older, they get trained in how to use more advanced guns. By the time they're in the 12th grade, they'll all be carrying AK-47s and no one will fuck with them then.


I think this is what Switzerland does . Of course, they do that as an alternative to having a military at all.

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T (Post 2760368)
My wife is a school psychologist.. and I don't want to see her suddenly having to learn how to use a gun for the first time ever... I pay taxes for others to help keep her and the kids in that school safe.


But the argument seems to be that the approach in place isn't working, hence the examination of other options.

FWIW, I'm not necessarily keen on making a provision of this type mandatory for school employees. I have long favored making it an option for any school personnel who choose to carry & are otherwise legal to do so.

spleen1015 12-21-2012 11:40 AM

So, let's say for the sake of argument that we put a cop in every school.

What happens when the cop is the crazy son of a bitch that decides to go on a massacre? What then? Add another cop to watch the cop?

Some way or another we need to prevent crazy people from getting guns or help the crazy people so that they're not so crazy.

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015 (Post 2760375)
Some way or another we need to prevent crazy people from getting guns or help the crazy people so that they're not so crazy.


You left out the most obvious -- and effective -- solution: removing the crazies from circulation in the first place.

spleen1015 12-21-2012 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760377)
You left out the most obvious -- and effective -- solution: removing the crazies from circulation in the first place.


I'm cool with that idea. Move all of the crazies to NJ and build a wall around the place. Works for me.

GrantDawg 12-21-2012 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015 (Post 2760375)
So, let's say for the sake of argument that we put a cop in every school.

What happens when the cop is the crazy son of a bitch that decides to go on a massacre? What then? Add another cop to watch the cop?

Some way or another we need to prevent crazy people from getting guns or help the crazy people so that they're not so crazy.


How about we do all three? Any one solution is not very effective. There are multiple answers that need to be used here.

cartman 12-21-2012 12:16 PM

In regards to having an armed person on school grounds, Columbine had an armed guard, a sheriff's deputy, on campus.

Marc Vaughan 12-21-2012 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760377)
You left out the most obvious -- and effective -- solution: removing the crazies from circulation in the first place.


The problem is that 'crazies' don't come with a label on their forehead, as such its not something you can largely predict or do.

(and if you mean just remove anyone with mental health issues from circulation - bear in mind that some 10% of the population will have such issues to a greater or lesser extent at some point in their life)

DaddyTorgo 12-21-2012 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan (Post 2760399)
The problem is that 'crazies' don't come with a label on their forehead, as such its not something you can largely predict or do.

(and if you mean just remove anyone with mental health issues from circulation - bear in mind that some 10% of the population will have such issues to a greater or lesser extent at some point in their life)


It'd help us get rid of Jon though, right?? ;)

King of New York 12-21-2012 01:33 PM

If we pay for all the school security guards through taxes on firearms and ammunition, then I'd be cool with it.

Kodos 12-21-2012 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King of New York (Post 2760414)
If we pay for all the school security guards through taxes on firearms and ammunition, then I'd be cool with it.


A capital idea, old chum!

Edward64 12-21-2012 02:34 PM

Just a thought. I've not read anything about what teachers think can help in situations like this. They are closest to it and it would be interesting to get their POV.

Qwikshot 12-21-2012 03:43 PM

A number crunch from slate.com (I know they're pretty leftist right?). Possibly about 5.5 billion to have an armed person at each school.

Cop in every school: How much would Wayne LaPierre's proposal cost.

Qwikshot 12-21-2012 03:44 PM

Also pretty interesting...Columbine had an armed guard during the massacre there.

Columbine-armed guard: Colorado shooting shows that NRA's Shield program likely won't work.

molson 12-21-2012 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qwikshot (Post 2760441)
Also pretty interesting...Columbine had an armed guard during the massacre there.

Columbine-armed guard: Colorado shooting shows that NRA's Shield program likely won't work.


Columbine wouldn't have been prevented by another armed guard.....or by more gun control regulations.....or by better access to mental health care. The bigger picture is starting to emerge here.

RainMaker 12-21-2012 03:50 PM

Why don't we just copy the countries that don't have as many shootings? They do things better in this area.

cougarfreak 12-21-2012 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 2760428)
Just a thought. I've not read anything about what teachers think can help in situations like this. They are closest to it and it would be interesting to get their POV.


I'm a teacher. I've never been for banning guns ever. I have guns locked up in my home. I also have a 5 and 6 year old. The Connecticut thing scared the hell out of me. I don't know that I have a POV...... I'm friends with our school resource officer. He told me flat out the Monday after, more than likely he couldn't have done much. I really don't have an answer. I think it's hard to argue banning assault rifles and larger clips at this point, if you're realistic. Arming teachers? I can think of a few teachers in my school I wouldn't want armed. Not sure I'd want to be armed, it would be another thing I'd have to worry about (as in where's my gun and is it secure).

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760446)
Why don't we just copy the countries that don't have as many shootings? They do things better in this area.


So that would leave out Scotland, Yemen, The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway and France.

Autumn 12-21-2012 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cougarfreak (Post 2760448)
I'm a teacher. I've never been for banning guns ever. I have guns locked up in my home. I also have a 5 and 6 year old. The Connecticut thing scared the hell out of me. I don't know that I have a POV...... I'm friends with our school resource officer. He told me flat out the Monday after, more than likely he couldn't have done much. I really don't have an answer. I think it's hard to argue banning assault rifles and larger clips at this point, if you're realistic. Arming teachers? I can think of a few teachers in my school I wouldn't want armed. Not sure I'd want to be armed, it would be another thing I'd have to worry about (as in where's my gun and is it secure).


Yeah, arming teachers basically means we no longer have to worry about where the nutjobs are going to get their guns. They're already in school!

Edward64 12-21-2012 04:47 PM

Good speech. One last chance after Christmas.

molson 12-21-2012 04:47 PM

Even the NRA isn't saying we should "arm every teacher." It's a non-issue.

RainMaker 12-21-2012 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760449)
So that would leave out Scotland, Yemen, The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway and France.


I would take the countries with the least amount of gun violence, see what they are doing differently, and copy it the best we can. I don't know what countries fall into that category off the top of my head. I do know we aren't anywhere near the top.

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760457)
I would take the countries with the least amount of gun violence, see what they are doing differently, and copy it the best we can. I don't know what countries fall into that category off the top of my head. I do know we aren't anywhere near the top.


Just looking at the list, I'd say we can eliminate western europe as a model for eliminating school shootings. The Chinese have had problems of their own lately so that leaves, maybe central america or africa. I omitted an incident in Argentina & one in (IIRC) Baku but those seem to be the regions that have had the fewest.

molson 12-21-2012 05:19 PM

We'd have to pass some crazy legislation and have the government seriously impose its will on American culture to become Denmark or whatever. Edit: Though, is that the goal now? You used to get struck down as being paranoid if you suggested that that might be the goal. I don't think any people or culture is 100% a product of their government, though it's always exciting when governments try to have that kind influence.

RainMaker 12-21-2012 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760458)
Just looking at the list, I'd say we can eliminate western europe as a model for eliminating school shootings. The Chinese have had problems of their own lately so that leaves, maybe central america or africa. I omitted an incident in Argentina & one in (IIRC) Baku but those seem to be the regions that have had the fewest.


Well I'm talking about reducing, not eliminating. You can't eliminate something like this completely. We've had twice as many school shootings over the last decade and a half than all other industrialized countries combined. Obviously this is a bigger problem here and we should be looking at the countries that don't have these problems on a regular basis for leadership.

RainMaker 12-21-2012 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 2760459)
We'd have to pass some crazy legislation and have the government seriously impose its will on American culture to become Denmark or whatever. Edit: Though, is that the goal now? You used to get struck down as being paranoid if you suggested that that might be the goal. I don't think any people or culture is 100% a product of their government, though it's always exciting when governments try to have that kind influence.


Murdering people isn't culture. The goal is to reduce the number of murders, not destroy cultures.

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760462)
Murdering people isn't culture. The goal is to reduce the number of murders, not destroy cultures.


Then reduce the number of lunatics on the street, as well as the number of known criminals roaming free (you said "murders" not "school shootings", so I'll take that expanded opportunity).

molson 12-21-2012 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760462)
Murdering people isn't culture. The goal is to reduce the number of murders, not destroy cultures.


We have drastically reduced the number of murders in the U.S. over the last 20 years. There's lots of different societal and cultural theories for why that is, but I doubt you can point to a government law that's done it all.

And you WOULD have to somehow destroy the gun culture here to make us more like Denmark or Finland or whatever the goal is. People sometimes talk as if its only gun regulations that prevent people in Western Europe from going crazy and killing each other. I don't think that's the case. I don't think it's always about laws. The gun culture is very strong in the U.S., its a very popular hobby and way of life in a way that I think people who aren't a part of that have a very difficult time understanding. If assault weapons are banned (as they have been in the past), people evolve, modify the weapons (or hide them). We're not Denmark yet in that scenario. We'd have to do a lot more to snuff out that gun culture.

RainMaker 12-21-2012 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760468)
Then reduce the number of lunatics on the street, as well as the number of known criminals roaming free (you said "murders" not "school shootings", so I'll take that expanded opportunity).


That's fine. I'm not advocating a particular policy, I'm just saying that we should be striving to reduce the number of school shootings, murders, everything of that sort. Murder isn't culture and we shouldn't be shrugging our shoulders and saying we can't stop it because it is our culture.

I've heard a couple unique idea bantered around lately. Perhaps the most interesting was a way to determine when a gun entered a particular area. Would require gun manufacturers to implement this technology into newer guns, and you'd still have the issue of older ones not having it (although you could require gun owners go in and have it done). But it embed RFID into the metal and a school for instance would be able to send out a signal that would detect when one enters a certain radius. Wouldn't stop everything, but if a gunman entered the grounds, it would signal an alarm to dispatch local police and could enable lockdown procedures before they can make it inside.

RainMaker 12-21-2012 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 2760471)
And you WOULD have to somehow destroy the gun culture here to make us more like Denmark or Finland or whatever the goal is. People sometimes talk as if its only gun regulations that prevent people in Western Europe from going crazy and killing each other. I don't think that's the case. I don't think it's always about laws.


What exactly is gun culture? I know of hunting culture, but is there some great culture behind owning 5 high powered weapons? Is there not some way that responsible people who need a gun for hunting or home security can own it while at the same time reducing the amount of gun violence?

RainMaker 12-21-2012 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 2760335)
I'd imagine the cost of armed guards at every school would be astronomical.


Their proposal was for volunteers to be doing it. Not paid professionals.

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760473)
Is there not some way that responsible people who need a gun for hunting or home security can own it while at the same time reducing the amount of gun violence?


Apparently not, since most of the efforts I'm seeing mentioned will largely serve to restrict the rights of law abiding gun owners.

JonInMiddleGA 12-21-2012 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760474)
Their proposal was for volunteers to be doing it. Not paid professionals.


The liability seems to make armed volunteers a non-starter.

gstelmack 12-21-2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760472)
That's fine. I'm not advocating a particular policy, I'm just saying that we should be striving to reduce the number of school shootings, murders, everything of that sort. Murder isn't culture and we shouldn't be shrugging our shoulders and saying we can't stop it because it is our culture.


The problem is that the right has suggested many ways to deal with this, but the left is all for rehabilitation, cleaning the prisons out, emptying the mental health hospitals, mainstreaming everyone, etc. If the right agrees to discuss gun control, can we get the left to discuss our criminal justice system, and especially the mental health aspects of it?

RainMaker 12-21-2012 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 2760490)
The problem is that the right has suggested many ways to deal with this, but the left is all for rehabilitation, cleaning the prisons out, emptying the mental health hospitals, mainstreaming everyone, etc. If the right agrees to discuss gun control, can we get the left to discuss our criminal justice system, and especially the mental health aspects of it?


I don't think it is the Left that is cutting mental health programs. And while I don't agree with rehabilitation in many cases, other countries do focus on it and their crime rate is significantly lower than ours.

JPhillips 12-21-2012 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760480)
The liability seems to make armed volunteers a non-starter.


This. What insurance company is going to be okay with armed volunteers wandering around schools?

Lathum 12-21-2012 07:38 PM

Putting an armed guard at schools will solve nothing. What is to stop the murderer from killing a bunch of kids at recess? Or parking across the street and picking them off when the bell rings? Or waiting at the first bus stop and storming the bus?

The bigger issue is identifying these individuals ahead of time and not giving people access to assault weapons that the average citizen has no need for.

molson 12-21-2012 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2760491)
I don't think it is the Left that is cutting mental health programs. And while I don't agree with rehabilitation in many cases, other countries do focus on it and their crime rate is significantly lower than ours.


I don't think it's the left that cuts mental health care, but it is SOME on the left that oppose compelling mental treatment, involuntary medicating, or institutionalization when necessary, on people against their will.

Lanza's family had all the money in the world, it wasn't a resources issue.

albionmoonlight 12-21-2012 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 2760490)
The problem is that the right has suggested many ways to deal with this, but the left is all for rehabilitation, cleaning the prisons out, emptying the mental health hospitals, mainstreaming everyone, etc. If the right agrees to discuss gun control, can we get the left to discuss our criminal justice system, and especially the mental health aspects of it?


I'm a leftist who is actually pretty sympathetic to gun rights. And I would LOVE a discussion of mental health and the criminal justice system

(1) Expand public mental health resources. Stop using the criminal justice system as a dumping ground of last resort for the violent mentally ill. Do not empty the mental health hospitals. Fill them. Then build more and fill those. Do a better job of screening at schools for mental illness.

(2) Reduce sentences for non-violent offenders. Use the freed prison beds to house violent offenders.

Two ideas that I would imagine are pretty non-controversial that would at least start trying to solve some of these problems.

molson 12-21-2012 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 2760497)
Stop using the criminal justice system as a dumping ground of last resort for the violent mentally ill. Do not empty the mental health hospitals. Fill them.


I touched on this earlier in more detail, but right now, the only way to fill the mental health hospitals is through the criminal justice system. That's the only way people are being forced into treatment and institutionalization, they need that record, that "proof" that they're a danger to others. It would be great if the state health & welfare agencies had more authority to do more and it wasn't left to the criminal justice system.

Edward64 12-21-2012 08:21 PM

I think Boehner is toast. More details in the article about using secret ballot.

House Republicans Circulate Plan to Oust Boehner from Speakership
Quote:

Several conservative House Republican members are contemplating a plan to unseat Speaker John Boehner from his position on January 3, Breitbart News has exclusively learned. Staffers have compiled a detailed action plan that, if executed, could make this a reality.

The Republicans, both conservatives and more establishment members alike, are emboldened after the failure of Boehner’s fiscal cliff “Plan B” on Thursday evening. Dissatisfaction with Boehner is growing in the House Republican conference, but until now there hasn’t been a clear path forward.

Those members and staffers requested anonymity from Breitbart News at this time to prevent retaliation from Boehner similar to what happened to those four members who were purged from their powerful committee assignments a few weeks ago. Their expressed concern is that if Boehner knew who they were, his adverse reaction toward them would be much more brutal than losing committee assignments, such as a primary challenge in 2014 by a leadership-sponsored candidate.


Edward64 12-22-2012 07:08 AM

A little bit for both camps. I think the retired state trooper is a viable option (but probably not enough for all public schools). Bullet proof glass, one point of entry etc.

The reality is a determined person is still going to get into a school and do some damage, but these may provide enough time for teachers/administrators to protect more kids.

Anyone know how the Israeli's do it. I bet they've got a state of the art system.

Armed guards, locked entryways, cameras: Schools seek security after Sandy Hook - U.S. News
Quote:

The National Rifle Association’s call to put armed guards in every public school in America has even further intensified the debate over how to protect the nation’s children in class, with some districts saying they’re preparing to take just that action and other educators cautioning that doing so sends the wrong message about education.

And short of giving teachers and officers their own guns, administrators across the country are desperate to find a way to keep their pupils safe. Locked vestibules with buzzers, emergency preparedness drills, stronger glass and surveillance cameras are among measures being considered after the massacre last week at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

Even before the NRA’s Wayne LaPierre said Friday that armed police should be placed in schools, guards with guns were posted at all 14 schools in Butler, Pa.

The district of 7,500 pupils about 40 miles northeast of Pittsburgh had already gone to court to get a judge's approval to have at least one armed retired state trooper in every school. They were in place as classes resumed Monday after the mass shootings Dec. 14 in Newtown, Conn.
:
Fearing a repeat of the tragedy in nearby Newtown, O'Reilly is planning to modify the district's school buildings so they each have a small, locked vestibule between the main entrance and the building's interior, which will hold visitors for screening.
:
Security experts recommend that school districts start with a security assessment. Because changing entryways or installing security cameras can be expensive, these experts said school systems need to figure out exactly what their biggest shortcomings are before plowing ahead.

"The number one request [schools have been asking for since Newtown] is to conduct a security assessment. We look at everything, from your written practices to the physical security devices and emergency plans," said Paul Timm, president of Illinois-based, school security consulting firm RETA Security.

He said his recommendations usually fall in two main areas.

"There are two categories that protect people better than anything else: access control, which includes a locked vestibule, running a closed campus, visitor management procedures; and communications.

Do we have public address systems, do we have telephones that are outfitted with emergency dialing instructions, do we have two-way radios?" Timm said. "Those two areas, more than cameras, more than metal detectors, more than burglar alarm systems, protect people."

Locked vestibules can literally stop an intruder in his or her tracks. As administrators have become more concerned about security, many schools have restricted access to just one main entry point in the hope of doing that, Timm said.

Another solution for safety-proofing schools: bullet-resistant glass. Timm recently helped a school in Hastings, Minn., replace all the tempered glass in the building with laminated glass after a student brought a gun to school, and the total cost was about $3,500.

But such a low dollar figure for security fixes is rare.


Dutch 12-22-2012 07:13 AM

Has the national attention focused on a stronger judicial system against violent crime that ensures criminals either stay locked away for life or maintain a debt to society for the rest of theirs if they are released?

Let's make criminals pay for all these defensive countermeasures.

Marc Vaughan 12-22-2012 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2760449)
So that would leave out Scotland, Yemen, The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway and France.


When you indicate Scotland you might want to consider that actually caused further tightening up of gun laws in the UK - since which no further incidents have occurred (that was approximately 16 years ago).

Dunblane school massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(I don't know anything about the other incidents)

Dutch 12-22-2012 09:45 AM

I had never heard of that massacre, so I wanted to learn more. Quick research found this article Gun crime soars by 35% | Mail Online from 2003.

Gun crime (in the UK) soars by 35%

...Criminals used handguns in 46% more offences, Home Office statistics revealed...

...Firearms were used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the 12 months to last April, up from 7,362...

...It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993...

...Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871...


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