Ortiz and Ramirez Said to Be on 2003 Doping List - NYTimes.com

David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez were on the 2003 steroids list. Not surprising at all.

No-brainer. The only guy I'm sure wasn't juicing from that (or any) team is Curt Schilling (not because he's a fatty, just because I believe his rants about steroids are genuine).

But even as a Sox fan, I wouldn't disagree with anyone that says that the '04 World Series win was tained. That's what the players union and the owners did to us, and every fan.

But these guys are going to have a hell of lawsuit on their hands if we ever find out how these names are getting released.

Yeah, and I hope this doesn't keep going where one or two names come out every few months. Just release the whole damn list and get it all over with or destroy the list. Everyone used steroids, we get it so let's just move on.

Meh, don't care, but it makes it all the more fucking ridiculous how Bonds gets blackballed, while people the writers like get free passes. Face it - this is primarily an issue for old farts to whine about the "sanctity" of the game.

What's with all these little by little released names? For drama's sake?

Btw, I'm with Crapshoot.

I think it'd be more newsworthy to announce people that HAVEN'T juiced. The fact that they keep throwing out a name or two at a time is just stupid.

Presumably, it's not the same person deciding which names to announce every few months. These are sealed documents. Some lawyer (or intern) sees them, calls a sportswriter, and maybe tries to get free tickets for a game or something.

Certain lawyers may have access to part of or the entire list. Lawyers working on the Giambi stuff probably knew only that Giambi was on the list. Same with Bonds. So those names were leaked then. Maybe these particular lawyers only had access to Manny and Ortiz, for whatever reason.

One things for sure, when they leak a name, it's a blatant violation of court orders.

Unsurprisingly disappointing.

I hate when steroids are brought up. It always makes me think "why do I still care about baseball?" And then I try ot decide whether I should just drop the sport altogether.

Yep. And that's highly disappointing... but, of course, people think its ok, because they are outing a player for using roids, ugh.

Let the subtle, but obvious, "sweeping under the rug" by ESPN, MLBPA, the owners, the agents, etc... begin.

Olympic-style drug testing is the ONLY solution to this mess, but we all know the greed of the involved parties will never allow the most effective testing program on the planet to be used(of course, it isn't going to catch everyone, as the millionaires involved in baseball can pay to stay a few steps ahead of the testing, but it's certainly better than the joke of a piss test we currently have). Like Ben Johnson(Canadian Sprinter, "former" Olympic Champion), the records of these "greats" should be removed from the books once the proven cheat hangs up his/her cleats...at the very least, the Sammy Sosa/David Ortiz's of the world should be listed with an asterick next to their name in the official record books.

I understand most think this is way too harsh, but I do believe the Olympic program is ideal. In a perfect world, a first offense would result in a two-year ban from baseball, a second offense? Find a new job/league...

The powers that be shouldn't have silenced Frank Thomas when he claimed this was a serious issue in the early 90's...it's too bad his name will be linked with these asterick-clowns.

Shit....you're telling me that David Ortiz....a guy thats 1.5 times the size of David Arias......juiced?

Seriously?

And agreed about them needing to leave Bonds alone, it's not like he was the only high profile guy doing this.

Bonds is the only one to break the home run record, but he's also generally a jerk who brought most of this upon himself. Mark McGwire and Roger Clemens did not come out of this exactly unscathed, however, so to claim Bonds gets particularly nasty treatment because of steroids isn't really true. The most that's come down on him because of that was scorn over the homerun record.

Per Ortiz, earlier this year:


I'm sure he'll voluntarily take a year off.

I am guessing back in June and before many of the Red Sox fans probably were wishing he took this year off. :)

Wait... did he say "bang them" or "ban them"... because that changes a lot! ;)

I thought he was already taking the year off.

Apparently Kevin Hart has drilled 4 people this inning for the Cubs: 2 Astros and the Umpire (twice).

I'm sure it would be too much for me to hope that Bill Hohn's crew is working this game.

:(

I'll wait for more than one source, but :(. Not Papi!

Post 3601 dude ;).

still fewer Sox juicers than Yankee juicers

yeah i apparently missed the new page when i clicked "new posts" it took me back a page so i didn't realize it was up on here yet

Probably not a good road to begin walking down.

Just an update on Halladay:

Detroit was told it'd take Rick Porcello, Ryan Perry and Casey Crosby for Doc. As much as I say you have to trade prospects for a guy like him, I am glad this was turned down. Our system is lacking depth, but Crosby seems very legit at this stage. Meanwhile Porcello is 20 and going to be most likely a 12-13 game winner already while Perry has the potential to be dominant in a year or two out of the pen.

Plus Doc can't hit which kills us because we just don't score runs.

Is that really saying all that much? I do know that the Royals woefully underachieved when it comes to juicers. No wonder we can't win.

Probably not a good road to begin walking down.

Steroid Nation: Kansas City Royals in the 2000s: Dugout of juicers?

Thats something to be proud of!!!!!

dola,

By my count that makes 5 tainted Boston championships in the 2000s.

Good work fellas!

The only player who deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to steroids, in my mind, is Frank Thomas. Everyone else is presumed guilty.

What about Kevin McHale helping out an old friend?

As a fan, I'd rather have 6 tainted championships than 0.

true true.

McHale helped out everyone though, so I don't think that one counts.

Yeah no kidding not Big papi:(................And if so he should have fired his trainer/dealer since he sure did not get the same stuff Arod and the NY Yankers
took (take) from the looks of his gut.

Strong words from a Pirates fan:)

I still have same faith in Griffey and Jeter.

Griffey being a cheeter would basically be the only thing that would make me sad. The rest of these guys, i basically have no attachment to whatsoever.

true. but neither was Jas being a douche

That would crush me as a fan.

He was being a douche? Where?

Where not?

So apparently the Mets have won 5 straight. I'm not exactly sure how that happened.

I hadn't seen this before. Cool gift :)

SI

Royals are now 10-11 in games pitched by Zack this year. Sad, just sad.

SI

Jose Canseco says there's a current HOF that used, but wouldn't name him.

Jose Canseco not surprised by report on Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz - ESPN

I would assume that's Ricky Henderson, but I don't know why the guys that their primes in the 80s but played through the 90s are always given the benefit of the doubt - Ripken, Murray, Sandberg, Molitor, etc.

I guess if you can't have 26 World Series titles, this will do, right? ;)

Dola


Whenever anyone says "no comment" to a story, you know it has to be true. I mean, how hard is it to say, "These accusations are false, I did nothing wrong, and I will prove it."

Trade----

John Grabow and Tom Gorzellany to the Cubs for supposedly Ryan Theriot and Jay Jackson.

Maybe others, maybe that's the wrong two. I know those two pirates are traded to the cubs though.

I heard a rumor that the Pirates were offering their stadium for a single A player to be named later (presumably Pumpy Tudors) and cash. Is this true?

So I guess he's not going to go the taking responsbility route.

He deserves the jeers he'll get on the road and the questions about the legitmacy of his career.

I'm telling you what, I'm tired of watching the Pirates dismantle this 67 win team brick by brick.

:)

I'm waiting for some team to send prospects to the Pirates with the express agreement that the Pirates will return the prospects to the sending team the second they accomplish anything in the majors (for more prospects).

I was thinking, the ideal trade would be Zach Duke to a team for an above average prospect, and a ptbnl(Zach Duke)

Rent our guys out for the rest of the season, and then get them back next spring.

I like what the Pirates have done. Outside of Bay (and that's even debatable) have they traded anyone you would build a team around? Or even close?

Are you sure? Why would they send our starting shortstop who's hitting nearly .300 for a couple of lefty relievers?

I'm pretty sure The Riot is not going anywhere.

Aramis, Jason Schmidt....After that we're talking nobody since the early 90s who's even been good.

And now that Aramis makes the big bucks and has like 8 homers, he's probably not even a franchise guy anymore.

That part is probably wrong then. Does he normally get double switched out of the lineup?

I love it when Yankees fans say this, as if they were actually around for all of them.

The AL is a much tougher league than the NL with a DH to contend with.

Steroids, PED's, and HgH has become such the norm in MLB these days that I am numb to it. It is kinda like watching the evening news and seeing the typical house fire, murder, and/or robbery.

How sad that this once great sport has fallen so far. I am much more interested in minor league baseball these days, at least as far as attending games is concerned.

Curse of the Great Bambino? Finally the Red Sox get off the hump and win a couple titles and then have it tainted by their best players being implicated in the steroid scandal.

Grabow is a type A free agent.

That would make me....ummm.....86 years old. So, theoretically, I COULD have been around for all of them. Alas, however, I was not. :(

The Pirates are receiving SP Kevin Hart (who won the game today) among two others.

But then we have no shortstop on a team that has struggled on offense. Just doesn't make much sense unless there is another trade in the works. Our lefty guy out of the pen has also been better than anyone we're getting in the trade.

I agree on the what the Pirates are doing. why not just load up on prospects and hope for the future. but what about when some of these guys blossom and they can't afford em?

Dola they are getting Kevin Hart (not bad at all) + Jose Ascanio and Josh Harrison

They trade them for prospects.

LoL its the revolving door of Pirates!

It would be nice to get to that point first

The Pirates should focus on putting together the most dominant AAA team ever. Maybe that can be the first step towards a tiered league with relegation.

I'm pretty sure thats what they are doing, lol.

Are you unfamiliar with the concept of ERA+?

I don't like it for the Cubs. Hart has been real solid for us this year and looks like he's come into his own as a starter. With Lilly out, Dempster struggling since coming back and Harden bound to get hurt, I'd like the insurance of Hart.

Just drove home from going out biking with my nephew and niece and WEEI sports radio is just horrible to listen to today.

Nothing like caller after caller of people trying to defend David Ortiz when it was likely the same people who were bashing Arod and Manny earlier this summer.

Hart was never that particularly good. He's had a decent stretch, but I'm not that big on him, especially if it nets us what we've been lacking for a good long while: A lefty you can rely on in the bullpen. Sean Marshall has been good, but he's likely a better starter, if they stopped bouncing him back and forth between the rotation and the pen, and isn't really that dominant lefty force.

I just don't like trading guys who are currently helping the team. Hart has been great this year in his spot starts and having him as insurance down the stretch is big in my opinion. I'm all for giving up prospects to win now but am a little leary of giving up a player who has been helping the team.

If Harden goes down tomorrow, what's our rotation look like?

Grabow is a solid pen arm. He has his moments with too many walks. He does a fairly good job of working out of jams.
He can be pretty effective in multiple innings. And he's not just a LOOGY.

And I guess if you got a small peepee that will also do right?:)

You aren't surprised are you? After seeing highlights of the cheering after Ortiz hit the game winner today, I had to make sure I was not looking at AT&T Park. It just the way fans are.

What? The notion of Jeff Samardzija as your fifth starter isn't filling you with optimism?

I would think you'd just promote Marshall to being a starter.

Wells becomes the 3, Marshall becomes the 4, and that still leaves The Gipper for the 5 slot.

With the way he's pitching? It looks like 1 more win than we'd normally have every 5th game.

Zambrano, Lilly (back in two weeks), Dempster, Harden, Wells
Marshall would probably get stretched out in the event of an injury.

The Cubs get to find another spot starter for the next two weeks.

Kevin Hart = Sean Gallagher? I don't think he has more long-term upside than Gallagher, and the Cubs have not missed him all that much. They just need their four starters that they are paying 8-18 million to take their starts down the stretch.

He has been lights-out his last three starts. If you want to change the argument to the way he looked in the first half of the year then you might be onto something.

Well color me Not Really Noticing his last few performances.

I'm still a touch bitter about, well, pretty much the whole team's mediocrity in the first half. :)

Marshall has been so good out of the pen that I wouldn't want to risk moving him to the rotation.

This isn't to say that Kevin Hart is a great talent. It's just to say that he has helped the team and is someone I consider an asset. He's a guy who can give you a spot spart or just eat up some long innings in relief. A great guy to have on the roster in September. I don't like removing pieces that are helping you unless you are getting a major upgrade somewhere. Grabow is a nice piece, but I'd prefer to have just given up another prospect than a guy who can actually help us make the playoffs.

If we had a bonafied, stable rotation, I'd be fine with the move. But we have some big question marks.

Lilly - Shoulder injuries are not something you just come back from. We don't know what Ted Lilly will show up. We also know the Cubs organization has a history of lying about injuries and underplaying them to the media.

Dempster - Looked real bad in his first start back and is still someone who I think is just mediocre.

Harden - We all know he's due to get hurt.

Wells - Has been solid but will enter a stage where he'll throw more innings than he ever has before. Does he hold up down the stretch or would a fresh arm like Hart be a worthy replacement? I just have trouble trusting rookie pitchers late in the year when they enter inning territory they've never seen.

The only guy I'm sold on as solid is Zambrano. The rest have question marks. With starting pitching being our biggest trump card in the division, I would do nothing to weaken it. Making our starting staff weaker to make our bullpen stronger just seems like a wash with the potential to backfire if one of our starters goes down.

Agreed with the worries on health. If you look at the Cubs starting rotation from the beginning of the year four of the five starters have spent time on the DL. The fifth, Marshall, was moved to the pen because it was a disaster.

Randy Wells has pretty much saved their bacon and Hart did a nice job in his starts. But the division, and anything more, is likely going to have to be won by the guys you are paying the dollars. If the rotation is in a spot where they needed a Kevin Hart to be winning big games in September - or, god forbid, October - then it just was not meant to be this year.

We'll see how the deal plays out, but I'm guessing that the rationale is something pretty close to what I'm suggesting.

The Dempster signing is a problem, as they threw money at a guy coming off a career year. That one is going to haunt them for a little while. At least with the Z signing you were investing in a guy who had a track record, a high ceiling, and little history of injury.

Marshall's future is going to be in the rotation. He was doing a decent job there before he had to get shifted to the pen. I hope that they are healthy enough in the starting rotation that they can leave him there for the remainder of this year but the team does need a better medium/long term solution for bullpen lefty. It clearly was not Cotts, Viscaino (sp?), or any of the other guys that they have run through over the last 100 games. But if they are not then it probably will be Marshall getting the "Joba" treatment down the stretch.

There is some buzz on the radio that the Lilly injury is way worse than they are letting on and the move was made so that they would have a lefty in the rotation down the stretch. I know they've been saying 4-5 starts, but the Cubs lie a lot about injuries.

Well... he was a former Brave and, as someone on MLBTR pointed out "the .282 OBP sealed the deal."

SI

Suck it Charlie Manuel; suck it hard.

I genuinely feel for the Royals; for the love of all that is holy, the Pirates have a better plan. Is there a more pathetic franchise in baseball (well, the Nationals perhaps)?

Dayton Moore apparently has decided he won't hide his hard on for tools this season.

Any rumors of him not being around next season?

I think he's going to be on the hot seat next season and if the team doesn't perform, he's gone. But I don't think we're there yet.

Also, the bolded line can be read so many different ways and all are wrong ;)

SI

Lets get back on topic.

Manny(who we already knew was) and Big Papi are both cheeters. Funny how A-Roid gets a 300 post thread, and Papi doesn't get equal time. And no noob even bothers to start a thread about it.

I can't wait for the rest of this list to come out.

Other than Pujols, I can't think of a single guy who I would find it significant that they were confirmed to be a steroid user. I guess finding out that Griffey used would be sad. But at this point, my feeling is that everybody was using and so be it.

If I'd have had to pick a list of 5 likely clean players Manny would have been on it and now he's been busted twice...

As for Big Papi, who was stupid enough to think he was clean? I think that's the big difference between him and Aroid, people thought Rodriguez had enough natural talent to actually be doing it without the drugs and the fact that he used was actually a surprise.

Honestly there aren't many guys who'd really shock me if I find out they juiced.

Curtis Granderson, Derek Jeter (Yes, I really would be shocked if Jeter ever failed a test for PED), Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling.

That's about it.