I think this is pretty spot on. The show hasn't done that great of a job fleshing out characters. It struggles with a larger cast and the better episodes tend to be those that focus on a smaller subset of characters.

While I don't think the comparison is all that fair, if you look at the roster of characters in just the first season of "Lost", for example: Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Jin, Sun, Hurley, Charlie, Locke, Michael/Walt, Sayid, Claire and Boone/Shannon. A pretty large ensamble cast that, more or less, all turned out to be pretty memorable, fleshed out characters.

By the third season, you could add a number of other very memorable characters.

In a little over two seasons we got very little of T-Dogg. In almost three full seasons, Carol has had some development of late, but not nearly enough for a character who has been around as long as she has. In a season and a half, Beth (Maggie's sister) is really just Maggie's sister who occassionally ends an episode by singing (though she did end the fight last episode by shooting a gun, if she starts to develop more of a personality, she is going to end up like T-Dogg, Oscar and Axel.)

Characters who I feel are pretty well definied: Rick, Carl, Hershel, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne (getting there), Andrea (defined by her suckage), Darryl, Merle and the Govenor.

I would say, of those lost, Dale, Shane and Lori were pretty well defined.

So, yeah, the show has struggled with the larger cast and making more of the side characters memorable. "Lost" tended to do it by making character-focused episodes and then larger, ensamble episodes as well.

I am rambling.

JIMGA and HB - that is exactly why I started a TWD Survivor Pool...hopefully they DO axe off a bunch of them :)

Although not Darryl...my wife would probably cry for days if that happened, lol.

And not Carol...because I have her :)

Why they didn't do episode centric flashbacks focusing on other characters is beyond me....that is how LOST got you into all the characters. I know the show is supposed to focus on Rick and how he adjusts to this life but why couldn't we see T-Dog doing whatever it was he did before the world went to hell? I've read bits of the comic and it is great for THAT medium but I think with the direction this show is going, they are going to have to do something to develop the "minor" characters more than they have. Otherwise, you got Rick, Carl, Andrea, Daryl and a bunch of Star Trek red shirts waiting to get bitten, shot, or something else.

Hey Jon, how have the ratings been looking with season 3.5?

It's a fucking monster. Re-premiere episode was the most watched (12.3m) scripted show in cable history. 2nd ep of the half season dipped a bit but every ep since has been in the low-to-mid 11 million viewer range).

A18-49 ratings have been very stable, The Bible has cut into the all ages audience a little bit but it dipped sharply (25%) with 18-49 after the premiere

I'm glad to show is still highly rated and hope it stays that way.

For all of its flaws from time to time, I do enjoy it greatly.

FWIW, the Bible is amazing and im not religious.

i hope the bible gets put on netflix soon...hate i have missed it but subday night tv has me spread out pretty thin.

I saw it. It was slightly less preachy than The Newsroom.

I'm just going to point out the obvious here.


Lost had 25 episodes the first season. Walking Dead is only on it's 32 episode.

a 25 episode season is a massive disadvantage for a show. The amount of filler time required is immense, and it seriously drags down the quality of any show. I get the point you're trying to make, but its the opposite of how it actually works in virtually every instance.

The Walking dead does action great. They are hit and miss on overall character development in general, and they are frequently a trainwreck when it comes to strict dialogue scenes, the more emotional they try to be, the worse they are, most of the time. There has been more than enough time to turn all those underdeveloped characters that HB mentioned into deep characters, but they either aren't interested, or aren't capable of doing that. The main one to me was T-Dog. The treatment of that character by the writers is a freaking disgrace.

But, as HB also said:


I think most of us here would say exactly that. I enjoy the hell out of this show, but there are countless times where I find myself frustrated because it could be so much more if it did a couple things better. Its still pretty awesome though.

this is exactly how I feel.
(it's also how I felt about LOST, fwiw)

I kind of liked Andrea in this episode. She is the only one willing to stand up to both Rick and The Governor. She is calling them out on their idiotic feud and trying to get them all to do the right thing and focus on the walkers. The fact that she is kicked out of her own meeting so "the men-folk can talk" show how little common sense is worth and how crazy the leaders are.

Another good part of the episode was showing the cracks in the relationships of followers to their leaders and letting the two sides meet, gain an understanding, and widen the cracks. The shift in relationship between Daryl and Bat-boy may have been a bit too abrupt, but it shows how meaningless the petty squabbling is. Same with Herschel and Book-boy. I'm not sure that Rick will have to take out The Governor. I think his own people might take care of it.

I do have one question, though. Why doesn't the prison gang send out a daily patrol along the fence to kill the walkers on the other side of the fence. They have plenty of weapons they can stick through the fence to make it a zero risk activity. If they are ever going to reclaim the planet, they have to eventually take out all the walkers. Why leave a major threat contained when they can eliminate it, or at least reduce it? Seems like a no-cost/moderate-gain concept.

I guess I'd just rather hear discussion about the show we love, instead of bitching and complaining about it's flaws. Yes there are flaws, but they aren't flaws enough for us to hate what is going on.

I agree with you DG. The problem is, the show doesn't seem like ti is offering up enough for discussion.

I'm enjoying where it is right now. I think they slowed things down lately and they did keep it interesting enough. They're giving you the insight into the situation and people before it all blows up in the next few episodes.

It'd be better with more people selling underpants. Just sayin'

An entire episode without the main cast ... and it didn't totally suck. And it even had a fair amount of Andrea & didn't totally suck.

I'm not sure I would have thought that possible.

I decided to fast forward through each one of the governor's speeches. Makes this go down easier.

At least they gagged Andrea so she can't talk.

Yay for (a little) more Tyreese!

Yeah I agree. My only complaint is that there is no way Andrea would have ended up in that truck when the governor got to her, she knew exactly what would have happened, and there would have been a fight to the death.

If he was going to drug her or something to get her back, freaking show that on the screen. Don't do it the way they did, its a bit dishonest.

I'm hoping that Milton survives til next season.

I really liked the scene with Rick. Wondering if he was hallucinating or not.

Some good startle moments. I thought it would have been awesome if they would have killed off the governor in this episode. Would have been a major shock and really twisted up the source material plot for good.

I actually predicted him dying next week, not even making it to the finale.

More or less dishonest than Governor working his way out of a warehouse full of zombies coming from multiple directions with no ammo? And then being in shape to track down Andrea and silently take her down seconds from Rick spotting her?

I get that they wanted to have a certain ending, but the way just about the entire Governor hunting Andrea scene played out was a bit dishonest. Advanced plot? Sure. Suspenseful? Yeah, for the most part. But it plays to the same idea you raise ... show the stuff on camera.

Also, Andrea knows the drill in terms of the prison swarming with zombies outside ... she wouldn't approach on foot. Commandeer a car along the ride, or at the very least make your own zombie minus arms to walk in the front door like you did last time.

He's showing a personality...that means he's going to die soon.

Hah, good point :) I'm basically willing to buy anything with walkers at this point, but maybe I shouldn't be.

Ha - here's hoping that isn't the case. Would be a major waste, if you ask me.

I think they are setting up the finale with a decent number of possible ways for it to go. We've got the good old fashioned shootout. We've got Milton getting over his internal struggle and taking out the Governor. We've got Andrea breaking free of her bondage and taking out the Governor. Tyreese set up to foil the Governor and earning his place with Rick. I'm hoping Milton has a big role in the finale, but like Jon said, he very well may not make it there.

I think there is one thing which will come from Milton, with two possible consequences: At some point in the next two episodes, probably the finale, he will finally get over his indecision and fear and he will DO something critical. And the possible results are simple, he'll either live or die doing it (and if he lives, he will join Rick's group).

That's my best guess.

I think Milton will end up rescuing Andrea. He's really the only one who knows about the Governors's secret torture palace. I imagine he'll figure it out at some point.

I was wondering if at the end when Milton mentioned what happened with the fire, whether he was just sort of coming out and telling the Governor that he did that as a bit of a rebellion, or he just screwed up.

A lot of the episde felt a bit too... slasher-flick for me.

I had no problem with the Governor getting out of the warehouse. There was the big group in front of him and it looked like one behind him. He had a gun and presumably plenty of ammo and that shovel. He's an evil badass too.

As for Andrea's tactics. She made a call to bolt. Something she should have done a while back. All she had was her knife. She figured that they would go out to look for her. So, given she has very little time, is alone and only has a pocket knife, how is she supposed to make her own zombie minus arms to walk in the front door? Last time, she had help with that and the proper equipment. Also, there aren't that many cars that work just sitting around waiting to be drive. I think she did the bast she could with what she had at the time.

My bigger problem was the slasher-flick feel to it all, including the governor showing up at the end to haul her down. A bit much.

That last shot of her in the chair was pretty haunting.

Slasher-flick is a good description. The hidden fire-starter, the last minute capture of Andrea, too many instances of forced mystery.

Do we know if Tyreese knows about the fire? He seemed to buy the Governor's explanation about a bluff which is more powerful to the viewer if Tyreese set the fire. If he didn't set the fire but does know about it, he shouldn't buy the bluff lie. The fire must have been set by someone that does know the tactics.

I don't think Tyreese set the fire. It doesn't really seem his style and both him and Sasha seemed genuinely confused by the question about the gasoline.

I think it was Milton who did it.

I totally agree. For most of that scene, the writers wanted us to think it was Tyreese, and then be frustrated when he apologized since the bought the "bluff" line. What I don't remember is if Tyreese knew about the fire. Him buying the "bluff" line makes sense if he doesn't know about the fire...not if he does.

Tyrese and Milton are good characters who they should keep. Best case scenario is Governor kills Andrea, Rick kills governor and the jail becomes unlivable so they leave. Tyrese and Milton help Rick after they learn what happened to Andrea.

I have a hard time seeing Milton survive the season. I wouldn't mind if he does, but I just don't see it happening. Tyrese on the other hand I think is highly likely to survive. Hopefully he ends up with Rick's group next season. Its possible that my prediction about Tyrese is skewed because I would be really pissed off if they used him so little this year and killed him off, b/c I like the actor playing him so much and want him to have a long term role here.

My guess: Milton goes to rescue Andrea, only to discover that she was simply being used (for the time being) as bait for the trap to fully convict him as a turncoat. He dies shortly thereafter, probably shot through the eye or something.

I would like to see Milton live and eventually be the one to reveal how this all got started/find a cure or something along those lines.

I'm getting pretty close to bailing.

I really want to like this show, as there are good moments, but yesterday had way to many "WTF, thats just ridiculous" scenes for me.

I realize I'm in the minority, and you have to suspend belief during most shows, but it just seemed like lazy writing.

A few examples:

The zombie is now strong enough to hold Andrea with one arm behind a tree, but a minute later, Andrea i guess ate some spinach, and bent the arm the other way......

The Governer, sneaks up on Andrea, and takes her down....fine, but he covers her mouth, and she's now POWERLESS?! There's no fight left in her when she's so close?! Goes against everything her character is supposed to be. Oh, and every zombie in the area is suddenly ignoring them, like they already ate lunch.

This could be part of the reason the show runner was let go.

As for Andrea being powerless, my take was, she was exhausted by the time she reached the prison. However, when the Governor made it back to Woodbury, he seemed to be holding the side of his stomach. Made me think that maybe Andrea tried to stab him with her knife.

Or, as I was thinking as the episode wound down ...

I think he's probably toast.

possible spoiler

From what I heard, people were displeased with something in the 2nd half of this season. Considering they've turned out at least 4 stinkers in 6 weeks, it's not surprising.

That's your opinion on the stinkers. I personally am of the opinion only two of the second half episodes have been stinkers, and even last week's stinker, IMO, had some redeeming moments.

That was my thought too...

I did have that thought too. It would be an appropriate send off for him in my opinion.

Does Glenn work as a double agent/the masked person who let the walkers in? He has the body size of a girl. Maybe they broke him/he made a (bad)deal with the Gov for passage to Woodbury. He wanted to take Michonne to get the governor. How did the Gov hear about the weapons.