Nice move Lathum. It almost backfired because I almost went with the idea of switching votes. But it drew out some nice info.

Hmm...Machiavellian. Maybe Lathum's the world's greatest villager, too.

I had a plan the whole time.

And sorry for pushing your buttons but I had to make it seem I was 100% against you guys

nice! good to see us get another one of those bastards! *happy dance* ok off to reset my phone once this post freezes it. hooray!

I think that Saldana got duped, so it's pretty clear where our votes should be going tomorrow I think.

Great plan, you bastard. You worked me like a violin. Well done.

I just wish you guys coulda got us without all the fucking cheating.

Do you guys trust me now?

huh?

Lathum certainly has made it easier for me to finish up my list, but as you can see, Hoops, I wasn't talking out of my ass and tomorrow I'll feel very certain about everything.

Nice job, Lathum.

1. I'm very glad I did not get traction on you yesterday. Still not sure why the wolves didn't put votes there, but I don't care
2. Upon further review, I don't want the question to be answered and out there for the wolves so I'll wait until after the game

Does the Pope like boys?

Heck yeah.

umm....

This game is over.

I think it is over at this point so go ahead.

Assuming it is, it is a lesson that wolves have the best voting records.

Wow, not even going to try to keep snowing us? All right by me I guess.

It should be noted that per the rules EF really did not tell us what is role was. The same can not be said for you guys.

OK, so what the hell was Lathum's role? It sounded like such a load of crap.

I'm also curious what Autumn was able to do to get info.

We had to be talked out of quitting two days ago.

Hoops, I was just the non-evil version of EagleFan's role.

Lathum, were you teh Risk Taker? And if so why didn't I see any votes on you?

Wolves, why didn't you take out me or Chief last night and hope you got the double?

You guys felt like we were able to talk about roles far too freely?

I won't be answering another question in this game.

It was a fun game (especially since this is the longest I believe I have lasted as a wolf) but I don't think its a good idea to do "hidden" roles with no reveal again - too much gray area with what can and cannot be said.

I agree with this, under the rules I allowed too much and when I tried to stop the village from keeping on the whole roles thing, they kept pushing it and I really couldn't say anything or risked the giving the wolves away.

I won't be doing another game with this mechanic. In theory I still like it, but too much grey area like you said and very few players played the way I was hoping everyone would.

yes, I was the risk taker

Okay, sorry.

I tend to agree. There was too much gray area. hoops and I weren't sure at all how much we could say.

And you took a risk on the day you voted PB? That was what I was reading from you, but no votes showed up against you.

So you guys were lovers then?

I talked with someone via AIM after I had died about that. My comment was that I understood why you implemented the rules (to try to prevent a mass reveal type scenerio), but my guess was after the game you'd likely admit that it didn't work as well as you had hoped.

What is the "Risk Taker" role? And I don't recall the details on EF's role - Autumn/Danny, can one of you guys post your role?

The wolves certainly dida remarkable job of hiding thier voting record. Going by that I would have strung up a whole lot of villagers. Did you guys basically offer up Telle on that day to get the brutal kill and great voting reocrds?

That's the technical WW role mimicked, although, technically, we were Leader and Follower. hoops was the Leader, if he went, so did I. Didn't work the other way. If I went, he still lived.

We were surprised you guys didn't take one of us out last night.

You are The Information Collector- You are great at collecting information! Each night you will have a talk with the therapist who will randomly reveal an unlisted role without realizing it. You will not learn who has that role.

Yes, but with a twist. If I died, Chief died. If he died, I lived.

The Risk-Taker- You love the thrill of the risk/reward of a decision. At one point in the game as night action you may submit the order to “take a risk”. This will result in a random number of votes being added to your total the following day. The number of votes added to your total will be a random number from 1-5. You will be given the number of votes added in a PM. If you survive that lynch, you will gain the ability to survive one night kill or lynch later in the game

Hell they offered me up the day before that.. every single wolf was on me until the last-second tie happened.

The list of Clap voters that day says that is exactly what happened.

yeah, I see how that could be frusterating.

I kind of saw the trouble coming from a mile away. Werewolf has 2 key aspects. Voting and roles. When you try to limit people talking about roles it removes not only creativity but something you use to gauge who you should vote for.

I honestly tried to say as little as possible about my role but it was very diffucult

my role

The problem with this is all the regular werewolf roles were public roles. Everyone else was supposed to be playing as a vanilla villager, it just happened you would have extra information to work with. Instead everytime someone with a hidden role was questioned they fell back onto using their role as a vice for escaping suspicion. I made the mistake of thinking people would not do that, so in that regard the mechanic was not a good one to use.

Yeah, Danny, I felt it proved too difficult. The roles were not just useless but dangerous if we never even referenced them. If someone pressed you why you were voting a certain way, and you had no other evidence what could you do, make things up? You'd basically get lynched for using your role at all.

At least one like mine that gave you information. I'm sorry, Needies, if you felt I was out of line. I wasn't sure where to draw it and assumed Danny would slap my hand if I was doing too much. By the end of hte game I had enough roles to have pegged almost everybody and there was no way I wasn't going to vote on that, and no way people weren't going to assume that had to do with a role.

I guess the votes were hidden.

Basicly I wanted to get a run on anyone and felt PB would be a good candidate. I had a +3 added on to me.

I was hoping the wolves would come for me at night and I would maybe identify one but that never happened.

Yeah, in retrospect, I think the wolves played an awesome game. Considering what they ended up going up against, it's one hell of an achievement to do what they did.

Really, I wouldn't call this a village win, but a draw, invalidated by the game getting out of hand from its original framework (and that's not to put the onus on Danny, this was just one heck of a tough game to moderate).

That was some pretty daring wolf play then, guys. It certainly had me looking at exactly the wrong crowd for a while. I was happy to have caught you at the Eagle Fan thing though.

???


We just ended the game?

Danny, the problem is that the villages can't really offer information that they have and neither side can make fake reveals because they only people allowed to act like they have a role is the BG/Seer/Duke.

Which really tightens the screws, forcing a lot of "I can't say why I believe that". I get the feeling you wanted us to make up stuff that was in the thread as a method to justify information that we had but how does that make for a better game?

So there was vote analysis and a whole lot of gnashing of teeth, likely on both sides.

Well people need a reason to show why they did what they did. People are going to vote in a certain way based on their role and the information that comes with it.

Ah, well that's crazy. I would have been sure of you a while back if I had seen any votes. I eventually came around when nobody made a hint that you were faking and they were the risk taker.

Just to make sure, all of the needies love me still right? :) I didn't reveal anything about my role.. I assume you kill the ones you love the most.. right? :)

And it should be known that we really had no idea who the seer was - we just got pretty lucky with Martin.

I agree and and I would not use this mechanic again. I may not run a game again for that matter (at least for a while). Still, everyone really should have tried to play under the mechanic laid out even if it meant not liking it and complaining to me after the game.

Huh - go figure.

I still had fun in the game, Danny, despite that, and I still think you ran a great game - so thanks for that

Yes, this is how I felt. I didn't feel it made any sense to dredge up nonsense from the thread to justify a vote. I'd basically be flashing a Wolf sign if I did that.

The "I can't say why I believe that," was all we could do, and that could do nothing but sponsor further discussion among the rest about what that role could be. That was the biggest problem I think, how can we stop the village from debating what someone's role might be? If they can't do that, there's no way to, for example, consider somene's faking.

I think, in retrospect, I should have used my role like a Night One scan and then hinted at being the seer on Day Two with a successful Night One scan of BK, would have been a lot easier for me.

lol...don't worry, we didn't have a flippin' clue either.

I thought the game was interesting.

I thought it was Autumn when I died. I thought I played a way that day to protect Autumn and make the wolves come after me... I guess I was wrong about that.

To be fair, the wolves followed the intent of the game to the letter and ended up punished for it. I feel really bad about that because they played the superior game..

I apologize again if I was over the line. I tried my best and assumed you'd PM me if I had strayed, as it seemed you had done that with others.

Man. I never revealed anything about my role, and I was allowed to!

Now we can just enjoy the Memorial Day weekend and not worry about werewolf (not that I would hope people would anyway, haha)

Let's all shake hands and call it a day - until the next game of course ;)

MartinD too! :)

Heh, but then again, neither did clap and Martin. Pretty funny.

But see, it sounds like this wouldn't have been legal either. It seems all you could do is know that BK is good and use that internally.

What would a person do when they publish a trust list that is based on their inside information?

So who did MartinD scan each night?

I agree that this concept was not a good idea, although I understand why it was tried. But it was pretty clear from the early going that this was going to be a mess. The same thing came up in the angels and demons game when I was Gabriel and knew who Lucifer was - it's just too hard to talk around such an obvious, gaping hole and not leave loose ends.

It's a shame it ended like this, because for all the frustration it was a very, very good game - the wolves played extremely well, most of the villagers had no idea what to do, even after today.

I thought someone, I think it was Chief or Hoops? was the seer, the day they voted Clap. That's why I followed them, lol

I agree, the wolves did very well at staying UTR and having no damning voting records at all, that was amazing.

So Danny, for example, did you want Chief and Hoops to not come out at any point and say they trusted each other? Or to say they do but simply give some made up evidence for why?

I would do something like this:

Day Two Trust List:

Amazingly Trustworthy: BK
Normal: Everyone else

In order, Telle, Hoopsguy, Barkeep and Claphamsa

All right, well, I had a really good time, Danny and thought it was a fun game, for what that's worth. It's the only villager win I've ever been a part of, and I'll take that even if it's maybe tainted.

I enjoyed the game but it was a tough work around.

I made my move day 2 and when everyone questions me what am I supposed to do?

FWIW I think the wolves played a great game.

Wow, so Martin had Telle pegged all that time? And then voted EF and Saldana? That's weird.

So he knew about me from Night 1? And let me last that long? Wow.

I wanted it to be based upon gameplay (votes etc). This mechanic did not work well like I said and if someone uses something similar in the future, I will make sure they don't :)

Sometimes, if I hit on Night One, I'm tempted to try and get a few more scans before revealing too. I might drop a hint in the thread just in case, but I suck at hints, so.

Good game all.

Danny, I liked the game and the effort you put into getting creative with it. With that said I think we had a bit of an uphill battle with all the roles that were out there. One thing that could have helped is if the leader/follower role would have been a 2 for 1 nk/lynch.

Had we killed Hoops, it would have been 2 for 1 (CR would have gone down too)

Yeah, you guys came really close today, if you had hit Hoops. I was worried that he was the Leader.

So Danny, did your PM box get blown up like I said it would?

Wolves, why criticize me 2 times in a row?

I'll just let it be known that in my game not only will you be able to reveal your roles, you'll be encouraged to reveal roles that aren't yours.

Don't knock yourself up, Danny, and don't let it scare you away from running a game.

I did this exact sorta thing last year in the Political game with the bill writing. I mean, thinking about now, holy crap, I was going to let the crazies run the insane asylum? I set myself up to having to try to set parameters around what they could do, which, let's face it, if I was going to do that, I might as well just put the rules in stone and move forward.

It was a fun idea in theory--not so great in practice. This probably falls into that same category.

Incidentally, I also think Pass and Abe put themselves in difficult positions as game GMs with the mechanics they used. I love the ambitious ideas, but it just goes to show how hard it is to nail one of these.

Looking back now, I think of the one great game I feel I ran, The Cubicle, and I thank my lucky stars that one went right.

I wanted you ctiticized the first night too... ;)

I thought the Political game was fun and interesting. I commend all the guys that run games here. I am sure any one of us could easily just run a typical Werewolf game, but no one does that - everyone tries to mix it up and use the werewolf under the surface, but the stuff is nothing NEAR Werewolf (look at Abe's game...well, maybe that wasn't quite WW, but still, hehe)

One last comment about the mechanic as I go back and look at it. I think this would work really well if not all the villagers had a role. I think that was the Achilles Heel, that we knew everybody had one. If it was only a few and only discovered on death that would be a nice twist I think. There wouldn't be all this pressure from everyone to give up the details of your role.

that actually would have changed things alot because I wouldn't have been able to come out guns blazing at PB

Speaking of night one, what happened night one.. with no kill, no conversion..

oh yeah, did we get a bodyguard block?

BG block on my attempted kill on Barkeep.

Did you guys assume Abe/BK were Lovers?

I don't think anyone said, so I'll ask again (cuz I am really curious).

I thought it would not be difficult to deduce some sort of relationships between hoops and I that was "Lovers-esque".

Why didn't you guys try to NK one of us?

I always assume Lathum/saldana are... ;)

ok, im a shitty BG and i dont like begin the BG lame