Relevance?

Who said they did? At least with Los Anaheim. There's your relevance about who placed the call, we've got no reason to believe that Toronto called the Angels to propose a deal in the first place.

My whole point is that they don't want to do the deal, given the offer that's out there. Who has said they did want to do a deal is also not relevant. I have not been seeking disagreement, just responding to you.

And once again, who made the call still has no bearing on my point. I am guessing everyone interested in Halladay called the Jays, and not the other way around, after Ricciardi publically revealed his availability. You could actually say Ricciardi's announcement was a call to all other 29 teams.

But, regardless, that is still not relevant to what I am talking about.

Which seems to be that the poor Angels didn't get the deal they wanted. BFD.

Presumably they asked what it would take to get the deal done & Ricciardi answered the question. How is there anything wrong with that?

Maybe that's the only package he would accept from them? What in the bloody hell is he supposed to do, tell them "nah, there's really nothing you could do" or tell them the one thing that he'd take in return? It's up to the Angels to say no if they don't want to trade themselves weak at a position, it's not remotely Ricciardi's place to protect them from doing so by declining to ask for it.

Damn, CR, I really don't get what else you wanted him to do unless it's to take less than he wanted for him or simply not answer the question at all.

i think CR's point was just that it seems obvious from the nature of what Ricciardi is demanding in return for Halliday that he is unlikely to get him dealt at all, and maybe never really wanted to deal him, so he was trying to price him out of the market in effect. which is certainly his right, but it does beg the question: "if you're going to set the asking price so high that nobody will meet it then is the asset in question really truly for sale?"

If I offer to sell you my house for $100 billion, knowing that you don't have that much money, is my house really actually "for sale?" Or is it just a case of "everything has it's price so i'll put an astronomical price on this."

Given that they'd get Halladay next year too, I'm kind of surprised the Phillies aren't just willing to suck it up and get the guy. With that lineup and Hamels/Halladay it would be tough for anyone to beat them in a postseason series.

Did anybody really think he wanted to deal him except in return for a near perfect offer? I never had any sense of desperation or even urgency on their part, which makes sense given that he's not leaving in a couple of months.

If the Angels didn't like the deal then I have to imagine that's just fine by Toronto. But this whole attitude of having some burden of answering the question with less than what you actually want/would strikes me as somewhere between bizarre and unbearably arrogant. And it leans STRONGLY toward the latter.

was there some of that attitude in CR's posts? i didn't see it, but i wasn't 100% focused on them, so maybe i missed it

That's very much how it came across to me, as though there was something wrong with the Blue Jays asking for what they wanted ... (edit to add) specifically because it wasn't something attractive to the Angels.

+1

aaaah okay

No, not my point. You're really bad at this.

My point is that if the Jays want to get a deal done, they should spread the talent request around, so that a team considering their offer might actually consider accepting (be it the Angels, or whomever). Since they did not, I propose they don't want to do a deal.

I'm not sure what is difficult about that point for you to understand. Apparently stating it and restating it for you isn't working, though.


I don't "want" Ricciardi to do anything. I am just proposing a possible interpretation on the events unfolding.

I'm not entirely sure this encapsulates my argument, but it's a fair approximation.

If you want to say Ricciardi wants to deal, but not the Angels, I can get behind that. It would certainly work in the Jays favor to move Halladay to the NL.

That said, the Jays' proposals to the Phillies and Dodgers, by all reports, have also been pretty exorbitant. So maybe it does hold true for all teams the Jays are negotiating with.

ahem...... cubs are officially back in their rightful place atop the nl central

No one has argued that the Jays should take less than they think Halladay's worth.


See, the issue here is "less". You think I am arguing the Jays should ask for less. Wrong. I am saying it's nonsensical to ask for both prospects at one position from a team, because you can almost be sure, just on pure logistics, that team will turn it down. The Jays can ask for the same level of talent or even more, but if they have an interest in the offer being considered, it would make more sense for them to ask for, let's say, Wood and Kendrick, who play different positions, instead of Wood and Aybar. Presuming Aybar and Kendrick are on a same level talent wise (arguable, I think they're roughly comparable in level of talent, but I digress...), the Jays aren't asking for less---they are just asking for a deal the Angels are more likely to consider.

Since I never proposed the Jays as needing to ask for "less", I reject your "bizarre and unbearably arrogant" characterization, as it is just another example of your inability to read my posts correctly.

You read it correctly. JIMG read into it what he wanted to, not what I said.

Plenty of relevance. If Anaheim called, then Toronto is just telling them what sort of players they'd want. The Angels can counter and say, well, Aybar and Wood are both 2B, how about Wood and Kendrick with Saunders or something like that.

I mean, this is a negotiation. Of course the original offer is going to be too much to stomach. That's HOW you negotiate. Hell, because you never know. One day someone may actually accept and then you get Johan Santana for a package of crappy minor league prospects (for example).

But my point was to debate the likelihood that that specific offer would be accepted by the Angels, given the way it was constructed. It was very specific to that offer in that moment of time, and nothing else. As such, who called who is not at all relevant, only that the offer was made, and here's the offer.

We don't know what else has been negotiated or what responses have been given from either side. I suppose if that ever comes to light, we can talk about that then.

If we're going for a 1B/DH to replace Ortiz going forward, I'd rather have Adrian Gonzalez. He's a great defensive 1B and actually an elite hitter, not just someone considered an elite hitter because they play (poorly) a certain position half the time.

Actually, I'm kind of impressed with the offer Riccardi recently turned down from the Phils: Happ, Carrasco, Taylor, and Donald.

I never thought that current management would give that much up in any trade for any player. So, J.P. seems to be a good job working the angles to get as much as possible.

I still think a deal gets done between the Phils and Jays. My prediction is Drabek, Brown, Carrasco, Donald (which would be a great trade for the Jays, IMO).

I don't see Adrian Gonzalez going anywhere any time soon. His contract is very nice for the Padres, and there really is no incentive for them to get rid of him, at least for the next 2 years. Perhaps if they are not competing when he is due to be a free agent, they likely will deal him. I think he does not like playing at Petco at all, but for the next 2 years, I don't see him going anywhere.

I have the exact same feeling.

How much more obvious would it have to be that there WASN'T ANOTHER SPREAD OF ACCEPTABLE TALENT TO REQUEST FROM THE FUCKING ANGELS to give them?

Ricciardi clearly knows what he wants from various teams (see Phillies, Philadelphia as a prime example). In this instance, he asked for the deal that was acceptable to him. He's not in this to make the Angels happy, nor does he seem the least bit concerned with making it easy for them to do a deal. He wants what he wants & they're free to take it or leave it. I agree that he doesn't particularly give a damn whether they (or anybody else much) wants to deal or not, nobody's holding a gun to their head but no one is really holding much of a gun to his head either.


As am I, and find your interpretation to be wholly based on ignoring the situation as it is, not as you would apparently like it to be.

Bullshit, that's precisely what you've been insisting they should have done because they clearly don't consider the alternative pieces talent as interchangeable or equivalent. Otherwise they would likely have asked for them or presented them as alternatives fairly quickly.


Pretty big word there, that "almost". Do I believe he thought they would bite on the deal? Not particularly. But there's a zero percent chance of them doing so if he doesn't ask.


Now there's a shocker.

At this point, trying to bluster your way through such an obvious thing, apparently figuring if you protest loudly enough that people will believe you, is actually getting to the point of being more offensive than your whiny ass post was in the first place. I think your protestations are pure unadulterated bullshit, I don't believe a single fucking word of them and I'm genuinely & sincerely insulted that you think I'm actually stupid enough to believe them, and so I'll simply take my leave of the subject now as neither of us are likely to change our positions nor our opinions of what the other has said.

How do you know that? Sources deep in the Toronto and Anaheim organizations? Please, pray tell.


I have disagreed with none of this, so I am not sure why you bothered to type it out.


No, I have pretty much stated the specific situation as it is, as I show in my response above to ISiddiqui. It is you who wants to make more of it than what it is, and introduce your own assumptions and falsehoods into what I'm saying.


You're making assumptions again about what the Jays are doing that presumes information you do not have, unless, again, you happen to be Ricciardi's close personal friend or something. You don't have any more of a clue (and probably less) than anyone else what Toronto's thinking.


It's actually risky. He could end up with two SSs. Even if talented, he just inherits the problem the Angels have, or hope that Wood's training out of necessity at 3B and 1B will pan out. He also risks insulting the Angels, which is very risky if he indeed actually intends to make a Halladay deal, and it turns out that the Phillies and Dodgers decide the price is too high, and no other suitor with the same possibilities as the Angels comes up. And don't think that isn't a real possibility--Moreno has shown himself to be sensitive to public sleights from other teams, particular in negotiations (see, Cabrera and Teixeira).


Ooh, I'm scared now. JIMG is insulted. If you spent half the time reading and comprehending my posts, that you spent locking into your own assumptions and misreads and madly typing away, maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this point.

So, good, go away. This thread's better for it.

absolutely. for Gonzalez i'd happily give up something like the package they were talking about for VMart (plus a little more non-elite)

Has there been rumors lately that Gonzalez is on the market? The Padres would be incredibly dumb to move him honestly for anything short of a can't refuse type of deal. I am actually surprised that they would be shopping him if that is what is happening here.

This is what I wrote previously about Gonzalez to the Red Sox.. Is there actual rumors out there that Gonzalez is going to be traded, or is this more just wishful thinking about a player that is untouchable?

i'm not sure...i've heard it discussed but i'm not sure whether there's been any type of actual substantiated rumors from people or if it's just internet-BS

Yeah but Gonzalez really isn't available. He's younger and a better hitter than Martinez but San Diego has almost no reason to move him. The Padres have said a team would have to "overpay" to get Gonzalez, which probably means a package like the V-Mart one plus more.

Actually, there was a lot of talk about Gonzalez in and around the Peavy deal discussions in the offseason, because it seemed to be widely acknowledged that Gonzalez was not going to stay in San Diego past next year (not sure if that's straight from Gonzalez or what, but it was on the level of presumed fact in discussions I read or heard).

The thinking has been that, like with Peavy, the Moore divorce was going to make it hard for the Padres to offer Gonzalez enough money to re-consider.

All that said, in these same discussions, I also heard/read that the Padres are much more interested in moving Peavy, and that they wouldn't be considering Gonzalez until the Peavy situation was dealt with. Plus, as you know, Gonzalez is just locked into arbitration right now, so the Pads don't really see a reason to discuss moving him before, perhaps, this offseason.

Some of this is from the Angels or baseball boards or rumor blogs and a lot from local radio from months back, when the Angels were being discussed as a possible Peavy suitor, and then nutty Angels fans would try to craft huge deals for Peavy and Gonzalez, too. I hate fans who construct trades that have no public basis as being considered, because they are almost always off the wall ridiculous.

I don't think Gonzalez is moving this deadline. Not sure if someone might take a chance on Peavy with his injury, although I'm not even sure players on the DL can be traded.

Gonzo is locked up very cheaply for 2 more seasons after this one. I actually think the Padres would be foolish to move him at this point. Next year around this time, I could see it.

dola-
San Diego is actually a very good bet to get Strasburg next year. If the Nats don't pay, they'll likely be picking 3rd next year and can snag him. I'd be willing to bet he'll be much more likely to sign for them.

i think that might be getting ahead of yourself on several fronts

There haven't been any outright rumors since the team was sold from Moores and his divorce. At the same time, we know the RS amongst others are interested in him, and I don't get the sense he's untouchable in an Albert Pujols, Hanley Ramirez, Longoria, Mauer type of way. If we were actually going to meet the Blue Jays demands of Buchholz, Casey Kelly +2 more B/B- prospects, the Padres would be silly not to take the deal - that's 2 cost-controlled top 20 pitching prospects in baseball. Even if we were to meet the Indians rumoured asking price of Buchholz+ (and if we were trading for Gonzalez, Lars Anderson would probably be included) the Padres would consider it, although we'd probably try to switch in Bowden instead of Buchholz.

It's less a case of credible rumors out there and more a case of if we're going to give up that much, let's actually get a 3/4/5 hitter going forward who is still in his prime. Bay doesn't profile that way going forward, Holliday was exposed in the AL outside of Coors this year and the best bet on the FA market outside those two is probably the injury-prone Nick Johnson. Halladay is superflous going forward because it probably means we let Beckett go after next year, and I don't think Martinez is an impact bat at 1B/DH or going to stay at C long-term. So since they'll be needing to make a monster trade for a middle of the order bat soon since we didn't sign Teixeira, save the chips up and use them there rather than going for stopgap players.

EDIT - or we could just sign a guy like Julio Lugo, who now has an OPS of 1.800 since being traded. I mean, Manny was expected, but even Lugo is great after being traded??? Come on :)

yeah...that's basically my thoughts put as well as i could put them

I think J.P doesn't want to make the deal. That's one of those trades that turns a fan base against the front office, and there's NO WAY J.P survives a rebuilding project of several years at this point. Really, the only way he stays past next year is if he can keep the team together, some of the younger arms make progress and they have a surprise run.

I can see the owners not minding a trade, so J.P. is officially "listening", but he's signing his own termination papers if he pulls it off.

I'm really stoked. The bats have started coming alive. Soriano looks to be going on one of his streaks while Aramis looks to be close to 100%. Bradley is even showing some signs of life at the plate.

I'm still concerned about the injury to Lilly. He's our rock on the staff and always gives us a shot to win every 5th day.

I think he wants to deal and knows he has to. I think he's just playing it cool right now and knows that there is a chance someone comes up with a Godfather type offer for him.

They have to make this move and try and get 3 top prospects from an organization. Rebuilding is their only option at the moment.

Interesting. So you think this is all some power play in the Toronto office, JP has his marching orders to shop Halladay around, but ownership has given him the leeway to make the "baseball decision", and allowing him to keep Halladay if a good deal isn't in the offing? I could see that. Question is, is Ricciardi more influenced by getting what he believes Halladay's trade market value is, or by his own job security?

I could see him doing this on job security. It seems to me, from what Toronto fans here have said, that JP and his decisions haven't exactly made him popular up there.

Ya, I think it's just kind of a general tension that is probably pretty common between owners and GMs who are on the hot seat. The owners are looking at long term, and money, and the gms need to win now. But if the GM appears TOO much to be focusing on the short term and the now, it's a pretty easy decision for the owners to make to let them go and start fresh. I don't know how much of it is literal "marching orders", but I think (just speculation), that J.P. wants to look like he's got the long term future of the franchise in mind, but has to know that he won't be GM for long unless they win next year.

Yes, I heard on the radio on my way to New Hampshire this morning that SI.com evidently was reporting that the Red Sox were inquiring about Gonzalez, so I guess it is not just some wishful thinking on the part of Red Sox fans, but I still wonder how much of it is the Padres actively looking to move him vs the Red Sox being interested in him and the Padres sitting back and saying "Wow us" similar to what Toronto is doing with Halladay.

I just don't think it makes much sense for the Padres to trade him now unless they are fine with telling their fans that they don't intend on competing for the next 2 seasons. That would be the only reason you trade him right this very second.

You can be sure he will:

1. Allow at least one run per inning.
2. Never get past 5 innings.

Padres are the 2nd worst team in the league this year.
The Nationals may not sign Strasburg.
We now know that a player has to allow a team to "redraft" him the next year.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Strasburg ends up in San Diego.
Especially cause they'll basically have all offseason and such to work out a deal with him.

Y'know, I figured this was probably one of those hyperbolic statements that the stats wouldn't prove out. That's usually what happens when I get curious and go look.

Not this time.

-- Only two NL starting pitchers with more than 60 innings have a higher ERA (Manny Parra in MIL and Scott Olsen in WAS.
-- Only one NL starting pitcher has allowed more hits (Aaron Harang in CIN) and he's pitched 17 more innings
-- Only one NL starting pitcher has allowed more earned runs (Bronson Arroyo in CIN) and he's pitched 14 more innings while allowing just one more ER.
-- Only one NL starting pitcher with more than 60 innings has a higher WHIP (Parra)
-- No NL starting pitcher with more than 60 innings has a higher Component ERA
-- In his last ten starts, he's allowed no fewer than one less run than innings pitched 8x. For the season, he's been within 1 of runs allowed/innings pitched in 15 of 20 starts.

This guy almost deserves his own thread.

Wow.. although I figured I was close just from watching him this season.

I'm sending this to LaRussa. :D

Oh, I left out something.
-- His ERA is nearly a half run higher than the Nationals bullpen.
-- His BAA is 54 points higher than the Nationals bullpen.
-- His OPS allowed is nearly 100 points higher than the Nationals bullpen.

The Mets fire Tony Bernazard.

Wow, I never thought I'd see it. The rumor was he had Wilpon's ear better than Omar does and was in line to take Omar's place whenever he moves on.

Not long ago, this seemed about as likely to happen as George H.W. Bush coming out and saying that GWB was a shitty President.

:eek:

Some cringe-worthy numbers from this article:

Major leaguers with the least trade value - ESPN



Barry Zito is still owed $89.1 mil through '13.

Soriano is still owed $94.8 million through '14

Vernon Wells is still owed $116 million through '14.


My apologies to Giants, Cubs, and Jays fans for bringing these up. Its just really hard to comprehend these contracts.

That contract for Wells should be a very fresh reminder for Jays' fans as to why they need to deal Halliday because if they want to sign him it'll be for an even worse contract and they should get as far away as possible from something like that.

If JP Riccardi was in your fantasy football league, and offered to trade Petersen. Then acted the way he was acting(Michael Turner, Chris Johnson -and- Anquan). I don't think anyone would mind if he wasn't invited back the next year.

The Soriano contract is ugly for the Cubs, but he still kind of produces. He'll still end up with close to 30 homers a year despite his crappiness in the field.

The Vernon Wells contract is the worst in my eyes since it's for a team without a huge payroll. The Cubs can absorb a bad contract or two, but not the Jays.

Finally. A list of "bad" things in MLB that doesn't include the Nationals. :)

Well there is the $8 million that Austin Kearns is getting to put up Jeff Francouer numbers. But at least that isn't going midway through the next decade.

I wouldn't mind if JP was gone next year too. But this is strictly in a fantasy football hypothesis.

And thanks for bringing up Wells' contract guys. Made my day. :mad: There was an article on some Jays' blog (have to find the link) that basically summarized in order for a team to take Wells' contract, it would have to be Halladay and Wells for nothing in return, and even then they'd have to get lucky. There were some formulas behind it.

Since I got a sense of humor about Barry Zito, his ugly contract really doesn't bother me anymore. That he is putting up decent back-of-the-rotation numbers helps.

Nice point in the article that Zito's deal ends at the same time Lincecum is scheduled for free agency.

Guzman is also getting $8mm to have an OBP only 15 points higher than his BA (dude never walks) and play sub-par SS. But neither of those numbers compare to the ones on the above list.

Don't get me wrong, their are crap contracts in the organization, it's just nice to have a piece in the national media about bad baseball decisions that does not continue to make the Nationals the laughing stock of MLB. :)

I was interested so I did a quick spreadsheet. I used the payroll numbers on mlb.com, which only take into account the active 25-man roster.

Great.

Now he'll end up in Knoxville working as a consultant to Ed Orgeron.

Took two lines to see that your numbers are wrong: you're not using the active roster if that's the Mets salary.

A) The Padres can easily be "beaten out" for 2nd-worst record by the Royals, Pirates, Orioles or a couple of other teams.
B) That's tampering and illegal.
C) Strasburg has so much to risk by waiting the year. Does he sit it out and let teams start to doubt him, or does he pitch in an independent league and risk injury?

So it's a nice conspiracy theory, but I wouldn't go putting any money on it yet.Precisely, but if we're going to be giving up multiple top prospects, go for the 27y/o cleanup hitter over the 32 y/o pitcher you'll have to give a crippling extension to (Simply put, we're going to be paying a 3-year younger Beckett ~20m a year starting in 2 years - no way we dish that out to Halladay too in a contract that goes until he's ~40). fwiw, here's one man's list of the top 50 players in terms of trade value 2009 MLB Trade Value: Recap | FanGraphs Baseball The relevant members

Apparently here's a lot of rumors that Bronson Arroyo is headed to the Yankees soon.

Please, please, please be true.

Pete Abraham did some checking and wrote on his blog that it's not true.

I used the numbers at Washington Nationals Salaries - MLB Baseball - ESPN (looks like it wasn't mlb.com)

On the Strasburg situation: what if the Nationals somehow move into 29th place? Does San Diego (or whoever?) take Strasburg or Harper (presuming Harper is still considered the phenom he is expected to be)?

TATIS!!!!

Freddy Sanchez is not in the lineup tonight

Dunno if he is injured or to be traded. Just had an off day too.

I'm curious if Luis Castillo has played himself into having trade value now. Never thought I'd be saying that...

Omar would then replace him by signing someone to an equally stupid contract.

Good thing he's about to be gone.

Great Twitter quote:

"here's a list of things the Wilpons and Minaya don't understand : 1) P.R., 2) journalism, 3) ponzi schemes, 4) baseball."

Allright Sack, 1 down, 3 to go!

Pitcher with a limited (albeit very impressive) track record and a violent arm motion or a catcher? You go catcher every time if it's close - much less downside risk.

What is the status with Ackley or Tate?

And how were the Rays able to get Beckham signed quickly last year?

How does Omar Minaya still have a job? I can't believe that stunt he pulled at the press conference today. What an embarrassment to the organization.

Because Omar has a contract extension that kicks in after this season and Fred Wilpon lost $700 million in the Madoff scam

San Diego takes Harper, and the Gnats wind up without either wunderkind. Though I would assume that if the Nationals wind up failing to sign Strasburg, ownership lays down the law and any Washington player who as much as legs out a double the rest of the season gets his kneecaps broken.

Tim Lincecum. 15 K's. Just wow.

I was listening to the radio, but I don't understand how the Giants got the 4th run. Something to do with there not being a 4th out appeal?

Pirates continue to frustrate, but Timmah is pretty freaking good.

A)True-The Padres can get beaten out. I don't think that Strasburg wouldn't sign with the Nationals because of the off chance to go to San Diego.
b) Tampering/Schmampering-The Padres can't directly negotiate with Boras till the draft is over, but I wouldn't doubt there might be a few "hypotheticals" discussed during coffee. Perhaps. The Pirates had a deal with Sanchez before the draft(and they were picking #4). The rays signed Tim Beckham really freaking fast the year before(June 19th). Matt Bush signed on freakin draft day.
C. I agree there is a risk to Strasburg.

I think you were reading too much into my post. If the Nationals don't sign Strasburg, it will be because of his agent, or the Nats being unwilling to meet the price.

San Diego, in their current draft position, looks like a very realistic landing spot for Strasburg if the Nats drop the ball.

Without seeing the game, I can't say how it was, but generally, a 4th out appeal situation is like follows:

2nd and 3rd, 1 out: Batter hits a fly ball to the outfield. The Runner on 3rd leaves his base before the ball is caught in an attempt to score. Meanwhile, the runner on 2nd tries to tag up and advance to 3rd base.

The runner who was on 3rd crosses home plate successfully, while the runner who was on 2nd gets caught in a run down and tagged out (after the base runner has scored).

If the defensive team appeals that the runner on third left early, the fourth out is recorded, and the run does not count. However, if the defensive team steps off the field of play (generally, if everyone steps over the foul line on their way to the dugout), the chance to appeal is lost, and the run will count.

EDIT: I looked up the game review: In this case, the radio got it wrong. What happened is the ball deflected off one player trying to make a shoe string catch, and went straight to another player. The umpires blew the call and ruled it a base hit. If they had ruled that the catch had been made, and the runner left early, they could've gotten him out as well.

It was awesome. Watch a replay. :D

Nah, they didn't say 4th out appeal, I didn't understand what the hell they were talking about though.

So, because the guy calls something a hit, and then gets overturned by another ump, the run stands? Is that what happened?

-nevermind, didn't see the pickoff.

Is it possible to play the game under protest when something like that happens?

Man. A feat more rare than a perfect game and it's not even mentioned!

Josh Willingham with two grand slams last night. He was the 13th player ever to do so.

I mean, I didn't expect his own thread, but at least throw him a bone. :)

Did you know that Bill Mueller is the ONLY player in Major League history to hit his two grand slams during the same game from opposite sides of the plate?

Sorry...had to pimp Billy M there!

edit: and 4/13 have been Red Sox!

Unfortunately Willingham's feat came at the expense of my beloved Brewers who are absolutely reeling right now.

Fuck going after a good pitcher when the rest of the staff sucks too (or in the case of the relievers very overworked).

Isn't one of their relievers starting tonight?

Indeed, Carlos Villanueva. His June ERA was 7.94 and his July ERA is a sparkling 10.80.

Tee off on him for three innings and then get into the Brewers bullpen once again. I have a feeling that we may see a position player pitching tonight for the Brewers if everything falls into place how I think it will.

I would love for you to be correct. :)

So it is being reported the Red Sox are now offering Buckholtz, Bowden and a single A outfielder for Halladay. I would love to see this happen. Pitching rotation of Beckett, Halladay, Lester, Wakefield, Penney for this year and next year with Dice K the number 5 next year along with Okajima, Bard, and Papellebon in the bullpen:)

That would definitely kick ass, but it doesn't seem any better than the Phillies offer.

Prospects in general are incredibly overrated at this point, the Red Sox really have the chips to do this if they wanted (and if J.P. really wants to)

It would suck to trade Westmoreland (he'd have to a PTBNL) because he only signed out of high school since he's local. I would hope that they would get his blessing/find another part instead. That's a pretty good package, I'd say on par with the Drabek/Happ package the Phils were haggling over.

If the Jays need to trade Halladay, I of course want them to get the most for him. But if he stays not only in the AL, but in the division too... holy crap. I think fans would not like that one bit. And with the Sox already having Jason Bay, some Canadian Jays fans might transfer to that team?

Agreed.

At least football season kicks into gear pretty quick...

Yes.

Its important maintain some depth in your minor league system in order to have cheap alternatives when players leave for free agency, get too expensive, or to cover injuries but teams have taken things too far.

Isn't Boston's problem hitting though?

In the playoffs, everyone's problem is hitting once they face great pitching.

Mark Buehrle's first gift to the team : here is DeWayne Wise' personalized: