Yeah, I know. But most people still look at it as a worthwhile accomplishment, so kudos to K-Rod.

Well, the goal going into '08 was a Winning Season for the first time in a while.... Now sitting at 66-80, can the RedLegs somehow win their final 16 and achieve the basic goal that Dusty laid out before the season began?

66-80 right now?? WTF!!

I know some won't give the record it's just due, but congrats to Frankie Rodriguez on passing Bobby Thigpen for the single season saves record.

Indeed, congrats to him. I wonder where it would rank on greatest season for a closer?

Great year - but I think it's a shame that teams STILL limit pitchers of this caliber to 60 innings a year. And a lot of those innings come when the team is winning by 2-3 runs, and almost ALL of those innings come with nobody on base when he comes in. It's a total waste of his talent. He's going to get MVP votes, which is a joke.

The closer role is stupid. It drives me crazy.

When a manager puts his best relief pitcher into a tie game in the 7th inning I think that someone's finally figured it out. But it's always an anomaly.

Hey CR, my knowledge of K-Rod is basically his stats and your rants on him at different times during the season. With Wagner out next year, it's expected the Mets will make a run at him. Should I be nervous?

Yes and no. I'll start with the yes.

K-Rod has a very good (but not great fastball), a wicked forkball/slider that is his out pitch and one of the best of its kind in the league, and a change and curve he occasionally uses, but not nearly as mucha s the first two.

When he is throwing his heater with control and confidence, he is virtually unhittable a la World Series 2002. Hitters are torn between whether to expect the fastball or try to be prepared for that slider that's in the back of their mind. I can't tell you how often K-Rod seems to groove a fastball right down the pipe, easy as pie, and the hitter is frozen, can't swing, because he bet on the slider that pitch. He just stares at the ball hopelessly as it flies by.

Why is this a bad thing? Because K-Rod doesn't always have pinpoint control of his fastball, and he doesn't have enough heat or movement (about 95 mph) on it to make major league hitters miss all the time. When hitters see they don't have to worry about the fastball, they lay off the slider--which is almost always a ball and in the dirt. It's an intense pitch and hitters love to take a hack at it, and they almost always miss. Its late bite is incredible. But if you know the slider won't be a strike, and K-Rod's fastball is off, you can basically wait for your pitch or take the walk.

Also, K-Rod just always seems to put one or two guys on. Seeing him shut the door so often in the end, it just seems like he does it on purpose. Silly, I know, but if you watch him every day, you get the sense that he isn't always focused until the pressure is on. So the result is a cardiac situation every time he pitches (or so it seems). 1-2-3 innings are extremely rare.

He will also probably only sign for $13-15 M per year, because he thinks he's as good as Mariano (and that's what his agent is telling him), and he won't sign for less than 4-5 years. That's a ton of money to devote to a closer pitching limited innings (which is the primary reason the Angels will probably look elsewhere).

Also, a lot of people think his wild delivery will lead to longterm arm problems. Hasn't happened yet, but then, he's only 26. But he already has a lot of innings on that arm, for a reliever anyway.

Now, the reason not to be nervous. Start with the obvious. He gets the job done. Whether you like how he does it or not, it can't be argued that he shuts the door. He just does. I have already talked about hsi quality pitches. That's for real; he has that.

Next, he has pitched in all sorts of relief situations, and in high, high pressure spots like playoffs and World Series, and he has come through with flying colors. He thrives on pressure and crowds and noise, feeds off of it.

He's a very emotional guy, but the sort that grabs that emotion and focuses it into an angry determination that helps him on the mound.

His emotion will play well in New York. The fans will love him for it. Opponents will hate it, and his finger pointing to the sky and his displays of emotion when he fist pumps with a yell after getting a strikeout. New Yorkers are used to Joba, though, so this would be no biggie to them.

He is popular in the clubhouse, both among Hispanic and non-Hispanic players, and speaks English very well, almost unaccented, despite being from Venezuela. He WILL talk. That will play well in New York, too, and the papers will love it, but he'll probably say something mildly stupid or controversial at some point that people will comment on. He'll shrug and go on.

If that's your only real hole and you have $15 M in your budget to burn, there are few better ways to spend that money, IMO. But few teams are in the situation, and it's definitely an overpay. But so long as he's healthy and you have some Tums always available for his cardiac relief spots, he'll get the job done for you.

That was a healthy write-up. Thanks. A lot of my fellow Mets fans don't seem to understand that he has a downside, and I probably wouldn't either if not for threads like these.

We have a couple potential closers in the system, but none that will be ready for next year unfortunately. If they don't grab K-Rod, it will probably be the length of the deal that's the issue, for the reasons you stated.

The Mets need to overpay for KRod and I am optimistic they will.

You mean because Luis Ayala, with the team up 4-2 in the 9th, just gave up a 3-run PH HR to some stiff?

Anyone watching the Cubs?

I'm saying nothing!! Its not on TV here, I hope they break into the ESPN game to show the bottom of the 9th :(

I don't know what you guys are talking about. La dee da dee da.

No, because they don't have a real closer (Ayala was never the answer regardless of what he did today) and they do have money to burn

I thought my question was innocuous enough :)

If I recall correctly, Z has had a couple of close calls in the past. Great to see him get the no-no.

:D

Grats to Zambrano, that is so great to see.

Man that was exciting. The first no-hitter I have ever watched. I was shaking.

How much of it did you guys see? I turned over to it in bottom of 5th, first batter I saw was the HBP. So I got to take in about 1/2 of it.

Barkeep went up to the game tonight - can't wait to talk to him about it.

I've been watching the entire game, flipping between the game and the replay of Fringe.

My buddy was in the left field bleachers too, what an experience that must have been.

Only the bottom of the 9th. It wasn't on here. :(

Rats, I thought everyone was talking about the Phils 4 game sweep of the Brewers.... ;)

I knew I never should have stuck my fucking head into this thread the other day... :mad:

Just announced during the Cubs game that the Brewers fired Yost. WTF? I mean ok if they don't make the playoffs by all means do it if you feel it should be done. But when you're tied for the wild card and could do some damage if you could somehow sweep the Cubs in the upcoming series. As a Cub fan and an outsider I don't get it.

Well, there is the little matter of back-to-back September collapses by the Brew crew last year and this year. Couple that with the jolt a couple of teams seem to have gotten with new managers (Blue Jays and Mets) and I'm guessing they are looking for something/anything to help them get into the postseason this year.

It has been something like 25 years since their last appearance. They aren't going to have CC next year and I think Sheets is a (restricted?) FA as well. If it isn't this year for Milwaukee, then when is it going to be?

That's the best argument I can come up with for axing him today, instead of after the season. Not sure I buy it, but maybe some Brewers fans can chime in with info on Yost + clubhouse that suggest why this had to happen.

Go Cito Gaston.

Rays have not "choke" away the AL East yet.

The big man strikes again!!! :D

He's got a chance at 50.

I hope they ship you to India for good ;)

Huge win for the Rays tonight!

:D

I think some teams have actually figured this out. Detroit had Todd Jones as their "closer" when he clearly wasn't their best reliever and TB seems to be doing much the same thing with Percival. I still haven't seen anyone do it with a K-Rod or Papelbon, but it seems some managers intentionally don't name their best reliever the closer.

Considering how inflated power numbers are these days, there's a good chance the AL home run champ has under 40 this year and it's possible Ryan Howard is the only one in either league over 40.

SI

Bochy is the new Dusty. Look at the pitcher stress numbers from Baseball Prospectus. Sabathia is #2 at 29 and Lincecum is #1 at 51!

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/st...php?cid=204015

For a young pitcher, who has been referred to as "The Franchise", that's unconscionable.

And that stat tells us what exactly?

Yeah, don't get me started. I want that oversized cranium the hell out of SF/

It's a measure of stressful starts a through pitch counts. The real shock is the gap between #1 and #2.

Again, that stat tells us what?

It's a measure of how some people either don't want to read or pay attention to what's been written.

It's a meaningless stat, it means nothing in the bottom line of things.

Reveal yourself Dusty Baker!

Particularly an injury prone one with a build that isn't ideal for a pitcher.

SI

High pitch counts, pitching on short rest (and increases in workload) are linked to injury, particularly in young pitchers. CC Sabathia for example, is 29, in the middle of a pennant race and will not be on the Brewers next season.

Tim Lincecum is a 24y/o pitcher, future ace of the franchise, throwing 138 pitches in meaningless September games for a team mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. He has never thrown more than like 160 innings in a season, and he's at 221 now. Possibly in a futile effort to win him a Cy Young or keep fans coming to the ballpark. (Matt Cain is also top 5 in PAP.)

Maybe his space-age delivery keeps him injury-free, but past examples like Mark Prior and Kerry Wood suggest it's unconscionable to be risking such a valuable long-term asset for absolutely no gain this month. Aaron Harang is another example

The one defense of the Giants is that he's shown nothing (other than being short) to indicate he's particularly injury-prone.

Shit, if I paid that much in trade for CC, I'd definitely be pitching him till his arm fell off.

Anyways, they need a fan abuse pitcher stress metric. One can only take so much of Ian Snell.

And while I'm at it, is it safe to say that John Van Benschoten is one of the worst pitchers in major league history yet?

90 IP, 2.14 Whip, 9.20 ERA

For some reason BP adapting hurricane rating terminology to pitch counts amused me.

Nice K/BB ratio for Benschoten there. They don't have anyone better than that somewhere in the organization?

If you look at his career earnings, it looks like he's been playing for free in 2007 and 2008. :p

John Van Benschoten went to my HS!

He should have never been a pitcher to begin with. Especially after he tore his labrum and rotator cuff in '04, but by that time the Pirates probably thought major arm surgery was typical for young pitchers.

I have the stub from the game that the Rays clinched their first ever playoff appearance!!!!!!!