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rowech 04-04-2012 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2634447)
I think his statement was purely political. Meant to play to those in the middle. Points out the hypocrisy of those on the far right but at the same time says something that those on the left don't want to hear.

I think he knows the mandate is going to get tossed and he's positioning himself for that scenario. His position is looking like the same one those on the right have used in regards to Supreme Court rulings. It's worked for them so why not steal it.


Might have been his point but it was an unbelievably stupid thing to say.

JPhillips 04-05-2012 06:32 AM

If what Obama said was this bad, what are we going to do with the legions of Republicans that have said far worse about the legitimacy of the courts?

As for the substance, this is what happens when the court becomes obviously politicized. Scalia was embarrassing using terms like broccoli mandate and Cornhusker Kickback. He sounded like a B list AM radio host. Thomas hid his wife's GOP lobbying income for years. Scalia has spoken at right wing fund raisers. And at least four of the five GOP appointees were members of the Federalist Society, which has been quite open about how they would like to radically change the way the court works.

The court isn't separate from politics, and likely never was. If we've survived decades of, OMG liberal judges, we'll get through this, too.

molson 04-05-2012 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2634937)
If what Obama said was this bad, what are we going to do with the legions of Republicans that have said far worse about the legitimacy of the courts?



We're not going "to do" anything except realize that Obama is essentially the same as those "legions of Republicans". (I mean, if that's the measuring stick for Obama now, damn, we're in a very different place than we were 4 years ago).

But even if we're content to just say, "it's politics" and go no further, I still wonder what "politics" this helps exactly, especially when it comes to all the cases now and in the future the U.S. has in front of the appellate courts. Will any justices be scared and vote the way Obama wants now? Will anyone who was inclined to blame Obama for the plan's potential failure, and was going to change their vote this November now change course, blame the Supreme Court, and vote for Obama anyway (I'd like to meet that voter.) Is that number of voters worth the bad will with the judges, annoyance from moderates, and puzzlement from a lot of liberals (there was at least one negative opinion from a liberal in the NYT yesterday over the silliness of this), and even the backhanded defense from the most loyal liberals ("hey, the worst republicans are still worse"). Not a huge deal, but the negatives outweigh the positives I think, and I'd be beyond annoyed if I was an assistant U.S. attorney (most of that job actually isn't political, like I said earlier 99% of U.S. legal representation doesn't have the political drama of Obamacare, but all of those jobs just got a lot more political.)

JPhillips 04-05-2012 08:17 AM

It's just a broad strategy designed to tarnish the whole brand of the GOP. I'm not thrilled that we've gotten to this point, but after Bush v. Gore, Citizens United and maybe this, it's hard to see the court as anything other than devoted to implementing a conservative agenda.

It may fire up the base, but it may not. I don't think these comments by themselves matter one way or the other in terms of the election. The low information swing voter likely hasn't heard anything about it.

albionmoonlight 04-05-2012 12:06 PM

Letter is posted.

Only 2.5 pages. Judge Smith ran into the classic teacher trap. His student just started page three. He should have specified 3 FULL pages. Rookie mistake.

I saved the letter as a pdf, but I don't think that I can attach it here. It will be posted on the legal blogs soon enough, however.

albionmoonlight 04-05-2012 12:07 PM

dola:

And looking at it some more, the first half of the first page is all letterhead and salutation.

I can see how Eric Holder got to where he his. That's a guy who can work the system.

molson 04-05-2012 12:36 PM

http://cache.abovethelaw.com/uploads...r-response.pdf

I thought they would just go through the motions but they did take the opportunity to talk about how appellate courts should be reluctant to strike down acts of congress. (i.e, they should be reluctant to strike down ONE PARTICULAR act of Congress, but more often, they should apply that living constitution liberally) And I think the last sentence is incorrect, but whatever, maybe everyone can move on now and do regular court stuff in court.

molson 04-05-2012 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2634979)
It's just a broad strategy designed to tarnish the whole brand of the GOP. I'm not thrilled that we've gotten to this point, but after Bush v. Gore, Citizens United and maybe this, it's hard to see the court as anything other than devoted to implementing a conservative agenda.



I wonder if you would ever complain about the Court "implementing a liberal agenda". I don't think it's the "agenda" part you have a problem with, it's just the "conservative" part. That's what was off-putting about Obama's comments, and this whackjob judge's actions. If we just want to go full on acknowledging agendas and then have the legal debates over that, it's an honest discussion. For now, everyone just demonizes agendas while having agendas.

Edit: I don't see why it can't be enough to support a policy, support or draft legislation to carry out that policy in a manner one believes is constitutional, and then subsequently defend the case in Court and stand up for its constitutionality. Instead its judicial activism this and agenda that and unelected justice this, which is just so hollow when you see they make the opposite argument most of the time (i.e if anyone disagrees with me it must be an "agenda" and if a court disagrees with me it must be "judicial activism"). Which is fine for commentators and people selling books and radio talk show hosts but it's unfortunate when it's from the people in power, presidents and judges.

JPhillips 04-05-2012 01:33 PM

I cited those two cases specifically because the court did a lot more than issue a decision I don't agree with. In Bush v. Gore they determined the election and then said that the decision isn't a precedent for any other future decision. They knew the decision opened a huge can of worms, so they bent their decision to achieve their goals.

In Citizens United they went so far as to rule on questions that weren't specifically a part of the case. A ruling for the plaintiff in that case would have had much narrower application, but they saw an opportunity to erase decades of established law and they ran with it.

The court makes decisions I disagree with all the time, but I'm generally willing to say the interpretation of the law has merit. Over the past decade or so, his court, though, has made very questionable decisions to allow their decisions to stand outside of the normal channels of the law. That's what makes them political activists.

Edward64 04-07-2012 07:03 AM

Gallup says Obama's approval at 50% and disapproval at 43%. Not sure why other than economy seems to be slowly, trending up and the drama is with the GOP royal rumble.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Ga...-Approval.aspx

rowech 04-07-2012 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 2636364)
Gallup says Obama's approval at 50% and disapproval at 43%. Not sure why other than economy seems to be slowly, trending up and the drama is with the GOP royal rumble.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Ga...-Approval.aspx


Looking at the alternatives we will be presented with probably has a lot to do with it.

Edward64 04-22-2012 09:48 PM

No real details yet and not sure what to think of it. If I got a sense that Karzai (or his successor) is the/our guy I would be all for it. My sense is he isn't.
http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news...ithdrawal?lite
Quote:

KABUL, Afghanistan -- The U.S. and Afghanistan on Sunday reached on a long-delayed "strategic partnership" agreement that ensures Americans will provide military and financial support for at least a decade beyond 2014, the deadline for most foreign forces to withdraw.
:
:
The agreement is both an achievement and a relief for both sides, coming after months of turmoil that seemed to put the entire alliance in peril. It shows that the two governments are still committed to working together and capable of coming to some sort of understanding.

"The document finalized today provides a strong foundation for the security of Afghanistan, the region and the world and is a document for the development of the region," Spanta said in a statement issued by President Hamid Karzai's office.

Neither Afghan nor U.S. officials would comment on the details of the agreement. A Western official familiar with the negotiations said it outlines a strategic partnership for 10 years beyond 2014.


Grammaticus 04-23-2012 06:07 AM

Health care stuff:

President Obama’s Medicare slush fund—Benjamin E. Sasse & Charles Hurt - NYPOST.com

An $8 billion trick?

Call it President Obama’s Committee for the Re-Election of the President — a political slush fund at the Health and Human Services Department.

Only this isn’t some little fund from shadowy private sources; this is taxpayer money, redirected to help Obama win another term. A massive amount of it, too — $8.3 billion. Yes, that’s billion, with a B.

Here is how it works.

The most oppressive aspects of the ObamaCare law don’t kick in until after the 2012 election, when the president will no longer be answerable to voters. More “flexibility,” he recently explained to the Russians.
Postponing the pain: The administration is temporarily restoring funds to Medicare Advantage so seniors don’t lose coverage before the election.
Getty
Postponing the pain: The administration is temporarily restoring funds to Medicare Advantage so seniors don’t lose coverage before the election.

But certain voters would surely notice one highly painful part of the law before then — namely, the way it guts the popular Medicare Advantage program.

For years, 12 million seniors have relied on these policies, a more market-oriented alternative to traditional Medicare, without the aggravating gaps in coverage.

But as part of its hundreds of billions in Medicare cuts, the Obama one-size-fits-all plan slashes reimbursement rates for Medicare Advantage starting next year — herding many seniors back into the government-run program.

Under federal “open-enrollment” guidelines, seniors must pick their Medicare coverage program for next year by the end of this year — which means they should be finding out before Election Day.

Nothing is more politically volatile than monkeying with the health insurance of seniors, who aren’t too keen on confusing upheavals in their health care and are the most diligent voters in the land. This could make the Tea Party look like a tea party.

Making matters even more politically dangerous for Obama is that open enrollment begins Oct. 15, less than three weeks before voters go to the polls.

It’s hard to imagine a bigger electoral disaster for a president than seniors in crucial states like Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio discovering that he’s taken away their beloved Medicare Advantage just weeks before an election.

This political ticking time bomb could become the biggest “October Surprise” in US political history.

But the administration’s devised a way to postpone the pain one more year, getting Obama past his last election; it plans to spend $8 billion to temporarily restore Medicare Advantage funds so that seniors in key markets don’t lose their trusted insurance program in the middle of Obama’s re-election bid.

The money is to come from funds that Health and Human Services is allowed to use for “demonstration projects.” But to make it legal, HHS has to pretend that it’s doing an “experiment” to study the effect of this money on the insurance market.

That is, to “study” what happens when the government doesn’t change anything but merely continues a program that’s been going on for years.

Obama can temporarily prop up Medicare Advantage long enough to get re-elected by exploiting an obscure bit of federal law. Under a 1967 statute, the HHS secretary can spend money without specific approval by Congress on “experiments” directly aimed at “increasing the efficiency and economy of health services.”

Past demonstration projects have studied new medical techniques or strategies aimed at improving care or reducing costs. The point is to find ways to lower the costs of Medicare by allowing medical technocrats to make efficient decisions without interference from vested interests.

Now Obama means to turn it on its head — diverting the money to a blatantly nonexperimental purpose to serve his political needs.

A Government Accounting Office report released this morning shows, quite starkly, that there simply is no experiment being conducted, just money being spent. Understandably, the GAO recommends that HHS cancel the project.

Congress should immediately launch an investigation into this unprecedented misuse of taxpayer money and violation of the public trust, which certainly presses the boundaries of legality and very well may breach them.

If he’s not stopped, Obama will spend $8 billion in taxpayer funds for a scheme to mask the debilitating effects on seniors of his signature piece of legislation just long enough to get himself re-elected.

Now that is some serious audacity.

Benjamin E. Sasse, a former US assistant secretary of health, is president of Midland University. Charles Hurt covers politics in DC.

JPhillips 04-23-2012 06:20 AM

With such a balanced and neutral take how can we be anything but stunned?

Swaggs 04-23-2012 07:07 AM

Written by a Bush appointee (who was also Chief of Staff for a Republican congress member) and a Drudge Report writer for a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch... Sounds like red meat for conservatives.

Mizzou B-ball fan 04-23-2012 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2645539)
With such a balanced and neutral take how can we be anything but stunned?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Swaggs (Post 2645541)
Written by a Bush appointee (who was also Chief of Staff for a Republican congress member) and a Drudge Report writer for a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch... Sounds like red meat for conservatives.


I appreciate the effort to discredit the author, but any chance either of you could discredit the actual material rather than just saying, "he's a Conservative". I'm not saying he's correct. Just help me understand why this is a legitimate move and not a cover-up as the author suggests.

JPhillips 04-23-2012 09:24 AM

It has nothing to do with he's a conservative. It's lines like,

Quote:

Call it President Obama’s Committee for the Re-Election of the President — a political slush fund at the Health and Human Services Department.

and

Quote:

The most oppressive aspects of the ObamaCare law don’t kick in until after the 2012 election

that make this a clear hit piece, not to mention writing an article on a study that hadn't been released at the time of publication.

Here's a much more neutral account:

Quote:

Medicare is wasting more than $8 billion on an experimental program that rewards providers of mediocre health care and is unlikely to produce useful results, federal investigators say in a new report.

The report, to be issued Monday by the Government Accountability Office, a nonpartisan investigative arm of Congress, urges the Obama administration to cancel the program, which pays bonuses to health insurance companies caring for millions of Medicare beneficiaries.

Administration officials, however, defended the project and said they would not cancel it because it could improve the quality of care for older Americans.

In the 2010 health care law, Congress cut Medicare payments to managed care plans, known as Medicare Advantage, and authorized bonus payments to those that provide high-quality care. Investigators found that most of the money paid under the demonstration program went to “average-performing plans” rated lower than the benchmarks set by Congress.

The report said the project would cost $8.3 billion over 10 years, with 80 percent of the cost occurring in the first three years.

Federal investigators are trying to determine whether Medicare officials had the legal authority to make the changes.

Senator Orrin G. Hatch of Utah, the senior Republican on the Finance Committee, and Representative Dave Camp, Republican of Michigan and chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, said the report suggested that Medicare officials had abused their authority.

In a statement, Mr. Hatch and Mr. Camp said they were concerned that the government might be “using taxpayer dollars for political purposes, to mask the impact on beneficiaries of cuts in the Medicare Advantage program.” Administration officials denied that.

A separate federal panel, the independent Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, also criticized the project, saying it increases “spending at a time when Medicare already faces serious problems with cost control and long-term financing.”

The panel denounced Medicare’s “overly broad use of demonstration authority” and said “limited Medicare dollars should go to truly high-performing plans.” It said “the extension of quality bonuses to the vast majority of plans is likely to result in far greater program costs than the reward system enacted” by Congress, and that by spreading the rewards so broadly, “the demonstration lessens the incentive to achieve the highest level of performance.”

The G.A.O. said the project “dwarfs all other Medicare demonstrations” in its impact on the budget, but is so poorly designed that researchers could not tell whether the bonus payments led to improved care. As a result, it said, it is unlikely to “produce meaningful results.” Insurers can use the bonuses to offer extra benefits, like vision and dental care, or to lower premiums.

More than 12 million people are in Medicare Advantage plans. About one-third of them are in plans that would receive bonuses under the 2010 law. By contrast, under the demonstration program, 90 percent are in plans eligible for bonuses, the report said.

The administration said that by offering bigger bonuses to more health plans, it hoped to encourage larger, more rapid improvements in care. “All Medicare Advantage plans will be part of the demonstration,” a federal health official told James C. Cosgrove, the accountability office’s director of health care studies.

The Medicare commission said “demonstration authority is intended for smaller-scale projects” that test innovations in the way health care is financed and delivered.

The health care law cut payments to private Medicare Advantage plans after many studies found that they were being overpaid. President Obama said the private plans were getting “unwarranted subsidies” that “pad their profits but don’t improve the care of seniors.”

The commission said payments to private plans, including the bonuses, were still about 7 percent higher than what the government would pay for similar beneficiaries in the traditional Medicare program.

Mizzou B-ball fan 04-23-2012 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2645616)
It has nothing to do with he's a conservative. It's lines like,

and

that make this a clear hit piece, not to mention writing an article on a study that hadn't been released at the time of publication.

Here's a much more neutral account:


Other than some inflammatory words in the first piece, there's not much difference. The neutral article as you cited it says basically the same thing. The worst part is probably the defense of it from the Administration where it says that it 'could' improve treatment. If they're not using the word 'will' instead of 'could', it's a pretty big sign that they're not very confident in the deal.

Matthean 04-25-2012 03:02 PM

Mitt is so screwed.


albionmoonlight 04-26-2012 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthean (Post 2646893)
Mitt is so screwed.



I think that this actually gives Mitt a way forward. Not an easy way, but a way.

People like the President personally. I know that the GOP base does not. But that's not enough. The President's personal popularity exceeds his job approval, and has done so on a consistent basis.

So I would not try and make Mitt more likable than the President. That's a fool's game. What I would try and do is run on the idea that Mitt is the adult. Mitt can fix the economy. Mitt is boring, but what we need right now is boring.

Yes, the President is charismatic, and in a better time, we could afford that luxury. But just because you like him does not mean that you want him to be your President. It does not mean that he is qualified to do the job.

Look, unemployment is still dangerously high. The debt is still growing. He's had four years, and he's tried his best. And his best was not good enough. It's time to get someone in with a track record of success.


Of course--you can't say all that overtly. But I think that the general theme of "he's a good guy who's in over his head" has a nice judo effect of turning one of the President's strengths against him.

JPhillips 04-26-2012 07:47 AM

The problem is that the more likable candidate has won every presidential election at least as far back as FDR. The low information swing voters that actually decide elections don't know or care about policy and tend to vote on an emotional connection.

SteveMax58 04-26-2012 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2647364)
The problem is that the more likable candidate has won every presidential election at least as far back as FDR. The low information swing voters that actually decide elections don't know or care about policy and tend to vote on an emotional connection.


I know its getting almost cliche & the type of thing everybody says every election...but I really think we're in a different time. I honestly think voters want an "adult". A stuffy, boring, detail-oriented adult that they might not want to have a beer with...but like that uncle who always seems to be doing well no matter what the economy is doing...he is the guy you listen to when it comes to money.

I'm not sure Mitt has convinced the general public of this just yet (and perhaps never will) but I do agree with albion that its likely his best strategy.

Honestly, I think if not for the Palin debacle...we're talking President McCain vs some Democrat right now. I honestly think a lot of independents really wanted to vote McCain over Obama but just couldn't bring themselves to do it because of Palin.

BrianD 04-26-2012 09:38 AM

Except this is an uncle who is doing well and reminds everyone else how well they are not doing.

Palin hurt McCain with independents, but Republicans in the states are going to hurt Romney with independents. Gay (non)rights issues and women's (non)rights issues will play well in the Bible Belt, but other areas are scratching their heads and wondering why Republicans are championing those issues.

BrianD 04-26-2012 09:39 AM

On a separate note, what do people think about all of the back-room dealing that Ron Paul is doing? He seems to not be winning anywhere, but he is collecting delegates. Does he have a chance to come out on top? If so, what does that mean for the Presidential race?

sterlingice 04-26-2012 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianD (Post 2647422)
On a separate note, what do people think about all of the back-room dealing that Ron Paul is doing? He seems to not be winning anywhere, but he is collecting delegates. Does he have a chance to come out on top? If so, what does that mean for the Presidential race?


So what exactly is the story here?

Cheapest, easiest graphic I could find:
Republican Delegate Count - Election 2012 - NYTimes.com

Looks like Mitt only has 200 to go, right? So unless Paul somehow wins Texas and California and everything inbetween, it doesn't matter, right?

SI

RendeR 04-26-2012 10:44 AM

McCain had zero chance of winning that election. He was as likable as a double starched pair of underwear and his own party wasn't fully behind him.

The Reps need to stop sucking the bible belt and start talking up the middle ground. Otherwise this election is over before it starts.

The sad part is in election years appearance really is everything. Sure you're core voters are going to be educated, but the voters that make the difference are generally clueless sheep like individuals who listen to their neighbors gossip and vote on emotional reactions to sound bytes.

Obama is making far better sound bytes across the middle ground. The Reps and Romney are pissing off the middle ground by clinging to women's issues that are going to cost them 2/3 of the women's vote. If not more.

How does any party expect to honestly win an election when their most basic platform tells more than HALF the nation (women in this case) that they're not really people, they're just drones to be told how they will live their lives?

The entire Republican thought process escapes me. Its fucking retarded.

JediKooter 04-26-2012 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 2647362)
Look, unemployment is still dangerously high. The debt is still growing. He's had four years, and he's tried his best. And his best was not good enough. It's time to get someone in with a track record of success.


Which the GOP, at every chance they have had, has tried to stop every single one of his attempts to fix all of that. If Obama said the sky was blue, the GOP would come right back with an argument as to why it isn't blue. Their scorched earth policy of 'Get Rid of Obama at All Costs' is a huge contributor and should not be discounted as, "Obama just couldn't do it because he's not good enough or qualified". He has been weak at times, but, the blame is at least equally shared by the GOP these last 4 years.

RendeR 04-26-2012 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 2647362)
Look, unemployment is still dangerously high. The debt is still growing. He's had four years, and he's tried his best. And his best was not good enough. It's time to get someone in with a track record of success.




And you think going back to the people that created every one of those issues is the answer?

After the 8 years of GOP guttering the economy entirely I think I'd much rather stick with anyone else for at least one more term.

Its a sick joke that people are trying to say he's just not good enough. the GOP has stepped in between every single effort the administration has made with no more reasoning that "We don't like you so we're gonna fuck over everyone to get you gone"

its pathetic.

RendeR 04-26-2012 10:56 AM

DOH, Jedi and I are doing that Mind trick thing again it seems.....

JediKooter 04-26-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 2647474)
DOH, Jedi and I are doing that Mind trick thing again it seems.....


Haha! It does happen from time to time.

On a serious note: Had the GOP actually really been concerned with the economy and jobs, they should have spent less time trying to pass bills against restricting the reproductive rights of women and actually concentrated on...the economy.

What's the old saying? Actions speak louder than words.

albionmoonlight 04-26-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 2647463)
Which the GOP, at every chance they have had, has tried to stop every single one of his attempts to fix all of that. If Obama said the sky was blue, the GOP would come right back with an argument as to why it isn't blue. Their scorched earth policy of 'Get Rid of Obama at All Costs' is a huge contributor and should not be discounted as, "Obama just couldn't do it because he's not good enough or qualified". He has been weak at times, but, the blame is at least equally shared by the GOP these last 4 years.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 2647473)
And you think going back to the people that created every one of those issues is the answer?

After the 8 years of GOP guttering the economy entirely I think I'd much rather stick with anyone else for at least one more term.

Its a sick joke that people are trying to say he's just not good enough. the GOP has stepped in between every single effort the administration has made with no more reasoning that "We don't like you so we're gonna fuck over everyone to get you gone"

its pathetic.


I'm a pretty big fan of the President. And I think that he's done a great job. And I think that it is not at all surprising that he's had much bigger success in foreign policy than domestic--i.e. the area where he has not had to fight a GOP Congress.

I was laying that out as the template of a Romney attack.

molson 04-26-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 2647463)
Which the GOP, at every chance they have had, has tried to stop every single one of his attempts to fix all of that. If Obama said the sky was blue, the GOP would come right back with an argument as to why it isn't blue. Their scorched earth policy of 'Get Rid of Obama at All Costs' is a huge contributor and should not be discounted as, "Obama just couldn't do it because he's not good enough or qualified". He has been weak at times, but, the blame is at least equally shared by the GOP these last 4 years.


That's fair in a vacuum but less so when you remember that he got the Democratic nomination by promising the impossible. To then defend him by saying it was impossible all along (or that Obama couldn't possibly have foreseen that the other party would continue to exist in some form and challenge him), well, I guess that just shows the campaign strategy was a good one. He will have to employ a different one this time though.

And while I personally think his foreign policies have been awesome, that's where he's broken the most promises to his base (GITMO, Patriot Act, domestic prosecutions of terrorists), even though that's the area where there's less Republican legislative resistance.

JediKooter 04-26-2012 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 2647481)
I'm a pretty big fan of the President. And I think that he's done a great job. And I think that it is not at all surprising that he's had much bigger success in foreign policy than domestic--i.e. the area where he has not had to fight a GOP Congress.

I was laying that out as the template of a Romney attack.


Yes, I agree his foreign policy has been one of his better areas these last almost 4 years. I actually think he's done great at some things (just not enough), but, has been an absolute nightmare on others. Overall, I'd give his term a D+, maybe a C-. This is my opinion though. :)

I hear you on that. I personally just don't think that strategy will work on anyone that is not already a Romney supporter. As an non party member, the GOP has showed me zilch that they actually cared about fixing the economy and getting people back to work. Oh they said they would, but, barely even tried, if at all.

JediKooter 04-26-2012 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 2647493)
That's fair in a vacuum but less so when you remember that he got the Democratic nomination by promising the impossible. To then defend him by saying it was impossible all along (or that Obama couldn't possibly have foreseen that the other party would continue to exist in some form and challenge him), well, I guess that just shows the campaign strategy was a good one. He will have to employ a different one this time though.

And while I personally think his foreign policies have been awesome, that's where he's broken the most promises to his base (GITMO, Patriot Act, domestic prosecutions of terrorists), even though that's the area where there's less Republican legislative resistance.


I believe it's fair in any medium, when plenty of members of the GOP have been quoted as saying that their number one priority is to get rid of Obama. His promises prior to winning the election were valid up until he ran into the wall of GOP resistance after he was sworn in. However, there are certain things that he promised which he could have been successful at, but, completely went in the opposite direction. He definitely will have to change is campaign strategy or he's going to get eaten alive if he rehashes his previous one.

Quite frankly, I feel he lied to all of us about the Patriot Act, the war on drugs, more government transparency, closing down Guantanamo, and illegal detainments. Given his background, every time he looks in the mirror, he should be ashamed of himself. Honestly, if there was another choice where a candidate would actually do something about those things, I'd vote for that person and not Obama. Unfortunately right now, it's getting harder and harder for me to vote for anyone anymore.

JPhillips 04-26-2012 12:10 PM

The level of obstruction by the GOP in the Senate really is unprecedented. We've never had a four year period where 60 votes was required to do almost anything and one party is almost totally united in opposition. If this is the way the Senate is going to work from now on every president is going to be a failure.

SteveMax58 04-26-2012 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianD (Post 2647420)
Except this is an uncle who is doing well and reminds everyone else how well they are not doing.

Palin hurt McCain with independents, but Republicans in the states are going to hurt Romney with independents. Gay (non)rights issues and women's (non)rights issues will play well in the Bible Belt, but other areas are scratching their heads and wondering why Republicans are championing those issues.


But thats where he needs to have truly BIG plans for the country. He can't win without a plan that tells people how he will create millions of jobs & spur investment in the US again. And cutting taxes aint going to do it.

I won't argue that he's not likely to be very convincing but its the only strategy I think has a shot. Still a lot of time between now & the election so plenty of time for everybody to alter their message (or screw it up).

Romney also needs (and I believe will as the nomination concludes) to distance himself from the social conservative base. They may not like Romney but they aren't voting Obama either. And I think his campaign will (or maybe should) see that every social conservative that votes FOR him, means at least 2 independents that will NOT vote for him. So depressing the social conservative base turnout isn't nearly as negative for him as making sure he gains independents (while maintaining non-social conservative votes).

I can't honestly see any other strategy for him.

mckerney 04-26-2012 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveMax58 (Post 2647369)
I know its getting almost cliche & the type of thing everybody says every election...but I really think we're in a different time. I honestly think voters want an "adult". A stuffy, boring, detail-oriented adult that they might not want to have a beer with...but like that uncle who always seems to be doing well no matter what the economy is doing...he is the guy you listen to when it comes to money.


If I'm struggling in the middle class and struggling to pay off my student loans I don't know if they guy I want to listen to is the uncle who tell me how tough it was when he was in my shoes because he had to sell off some of the stock his dad gave him to make it through college.

JPhillips 04-26-2012 01:11 PM

Outside of GOTV operations I don't think strategy matters much. If the economy continues to trend negative Obama will lose and if the past few weeks are a blip on an otherwise slow upward trend Obama wins. All the strategy sessions in thw world won't alter that basic dynamic.

albionmoonlight 04-26-2012 01:12 PM

Karl Rove got my memo:

http://youtu.be/lhXGkeMdOJs

Coffee Warlord 04-26-2012 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mckerney (Post 2647551)
If I'm struggling in the middle class and struggling to pay off my student loans I don't know if they guy I want to listen to is the uncle who tell me how tough it was when he was in my shoes because he had to sell off some of the stock his dad gave him to make it through college.


You of course realize that Obama was also far, far from poor growing up.

SteveMax58 04-26-2012 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mckerney (Post 2647551)
If I'm struggling in the middle class and struggling to pay off my student loans I don't know if they guy I want to listen to is the uncle who tell me how tough it was when he was in my shoes because he had to sell off some of the stock his dad gave him to make it through college.


Are you suggesting that you'd rather somebody who made bad decisions and struggled because of those bad decisions? Thats how you'd be certain he'd be able to lead the country out of a recession? If the worst thing you can say about somebody is that they don't know what its like to fail or struggle...I'd say there is a lot to learn from that person regardless of what their financial starting position was.

I have always agreed that Romney is not an easy person to find engaging or identify with but if I were the struggling middle class person with student loan debts & worried about my job (which I'm sure is not far from being most people give or take on the type of debt & level of income a little), I'd be listening & open to the idea that Obama may not fully understand how to enable my prosperity as well as a guy like Romney would. But if you don't even consider it, then I don't think you're the target independent he's going for anyway.

mckerney 04-26-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord (Post 2647563)
You of course realize that Obama was also far, far from poor growing up.


Yes, though the issue isn't just that they are well off. What is an issue is either not realizing and conveying that you realize what the issues facing people who aren't so well off are. That's something Romeny isn't doing so well at and why I don't think he's quite that uncle you would go to for financial advice.

miked 04-26-2012 01:47 PM

I guess the issue is that I'm not sure how the GOP plans to increase the jobs or housing market (or reduce the price of gas). So far, all I seem to hear in the debates is to cut taxes on the "job creators", relax regulations (because the free market will police itself) and make business pay no corporate taxes to encourage them to hire. Oh, and drastically increase unemployment by firing 25-30% of government workers.

I'm not really sure what Obama plans to do either, but at least I agree with him on most other issues.

Marc Vaughan 04-26-2012 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveMax58 (Post 2647574)
I'd be listening & open to the idea that Obama may not fully understand how to enable my prosperity as well as a guy like Romney would. But if you don't even consider it, then I don't think you're the target independent he's going for anyway.


The problem I have is that Romney is the person to back to ensure HIS prosperity and the prosperity of other people already multi-millionaires .... not entirely sure he's truly bothered about normal people, nor does he understand them.

SteveMax58 04-26-2012 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan (Post 2647592)
The problem I have is that Romney is the person to back to ensure HIS prosperity and the prosperity of other people already multi-millionaires .... not entirely sure he's truly bothered about normal people, nor does he understand them.


I don't think I'd disagree with him being out of touch but do you think his only reason for running (and spending his own money doing so) is so that he can enact policy that will enable him to make a lot more money in 4-8 years from now?

BrianD 04-27-2012 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice (Post 2647454)
So what exactly is the story here?

Cheapest, easiest graphic I could find:
Republican Delegate Count - Election 2012 - NYTimes.com

Looks like Mitt only has 200 to go, right? So unless Paul somehow wins Texas and California and everything inbetween, it doesn't matter, right?

SI


Maddow: ‘I think Ron Paul just won Iowa’ | The Raw Story

This is what I am referring to. I do understand the source so I'm not sure how much value to put into this, but it goes along with what Paul has been saying in interviews for a while. He said that Romney and Santorum were going after the voters and he was going after the delegates...hence the back-room deals. This may not turn out to be anything, but he still seems to think that he has a shot.

Swaggs 04-27-2012 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianD (Post 2648407)
Maddow: ‘I think Ron Paul just won Iowa’ | The Raw Story

This is what I am referring to. I do understand the source so I'm not sure how much value to put into this, but it goes along with what Paul has been saying in interviews for a while. He said that Romney and Santorum were going after the voters and he was going after the delegates...hence the back-room deals. This may not turn out to be anything, but he still seems to think that he has a shot.


I've been following this for the past week, too.

I still don't quite understand what the plan is or how it is working, but it is pretty interesting to keep an eye on. I wonder if Paul will run third-party if he can't pull it off. I don't think he can win the general election, but I can see him pulling together enough disgruntled members of the two parties, along with his usual following and Libertarians and get 10%+ if he runs his campaign well.

My initial thought would be that he would do more harm to Romney, but from my unscientific Facebook observations, it seems like a lot of folks that voted for Obama would consider him (I guess they don't want to vote for Obama again, but think Romney is a jackass and won't' vote for him either).

JPhillips 04-27-2012 08:52 AM

Paul has to have a plurality in five states to have his name presented for nomination at the convention. What he and his supporters aren't considering is that the GOP will create whatever rule necessary to keep the nominating process as clean as possible. There is no path for Paul to even cause waves at the convention. If the rules allow him to, they'll change the rules.

Swaggs 04-27-2012 08:52 AM

Dola...

I feel like I need someone like Nate Silver to explain what Paul's plan is here. :)

Marc Vaughan 04-27-2012 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveMax58 (Post 2647621)
I don't think I'd disagree with him being out of touch but do you think his only reason for running (and spending his own money doing so) is so that he can enact policy that will enable him to make a lot more money in 4-8 years from now?


I think its likely that he truly does believe the rhetoric which he spouts, a lot of the GOP do ... whether it matches reality doesn't come into it.

(the fact that it happens to be advantageous to himself, the corporations backing him and his rich colleagues is part of the reason why it seems sensible to him I'm sure - its unlikely he frequently comes into contact with 'normal' people)


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