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Mizzou B-ball fan 05-27-2009 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan (Post 2034191)
Uhhhh, yeah he did. You stated it's so easy to find replacements and build a solid bench with a $140 million payroll. He showed how the guys contributing now are being paid salaries that are eclipsed by some advertising execs living in NYC. Not only that, but they basically came from nowhere and were still able to contribute. That's good personnel management.

Oh, and since I know what your typical "I'll ignore 95% of the facts and focus on the outlier" response is going to be, I'll go ahead and answer:

Sheffield might make $14 million but it sure as hell wasn't the Mets who gave it to him and any team could've had him for the minimum salary.


Yeah, look at all these bargain bin finds. How did the GM find these guys?

Carlos Beltran -- 20,071,429
Johan Santana -- 20,000,000
Carlos Delgado -- 12,000,000
Oliver Perez -- 12,000,000
Billy Wagner -- 10,500,000
Francisco Rodriguez -- 9,166,667
David Wright -- 7,750,000
Luis Castillo -- 6,250,000
Jose Reyes -- 6,125,000
J.J. Putz -- 6,000,000

I have no problem stating that the GM was working with what he had, but let's not pretend that the Mets just put together a bunch of journeymen. Their top 5 players make the same as the entire Royals team.

larrymcg421 05-27-2009 02:29 PM

Baseball is a sport where chemistry is less necessary than probably any other team sport. You may need it in a few situations (pitcher-catcher, maybe 2B-SS), but it doesn't come close to the chemistry needed to be successful in football or basketball.

ISiddiqui 05-27-2009 02:31 PM

I do so love how MBBF completely misses the point so often.

miked 05-27-2009 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2034186)
Couldn't disagree more with this. Chemistry is very important. Spats in the clubhouse can ruin a team.


So you're the idiot who put this in FOF!!!11@!

larrymcg421 05-27-2009 02:38 PM

I think the obvious point is that despite how much the Mets spent, the GM did a good job finding quality backups for little money. I don't see why it's so hard to understand that.

Logan 05-27-2009 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2034201)
Yeah, look at all these bargain bin finds. How did the GM find these guys?

Carlos Beltran -- 20,071,429
Johan Santana -- 20,000,000
Carlos Delgado -- 12,000,000
Oliver Perez -- 12,000,000
Billy Wagner -- 10,500,000
Francisco Rodriguez -- 9,166,667
David Wright -- 7,750,000
Luis Castillo -- 6,250,000
Jose Reyes -- 6,125,000
J.J. Putz -- 6,000,000

I have no problem stating that the GM was working with what he had, but let's not pretend that the Mets just put together a bunch of journeymen. Their top 5 players make the same as the entire Royals team.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 2034206)
I do so love how MBBF completely misses the point so often.


I figure getting to a website with the salary figures, typing all that out, each with two hyphens, had to have taken at least three minutes. That just makes it even better.

larrymcg421 05-27-2009 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan (Post 2034214)
I figure getting to a website with the salary figures, typing all that out, each with two hyphens, had to have taken at least three minutes. That just makes it even better.


That extra $71,249 Beltran makes really grates on me.

Logan 05-27-2009 02:46 PM

MBBF has to be jbmagic after going to typing school.

Atocep 05-27-2009 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2034173)
And destroys team chemistry everywhere he goes. No thanks.


I can't believe this was posted with Jose Guillen playing in the Royals outfield.

stevew 05-27-2009 03:50 PM

So fucking tired of the Royals.

Lathum 05-27-2009 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 2034270)
So fucking tired of the MBBF.


fixed

Ronnie Dobbs2 05-27-2009 03:52 PM

Well in fairness there hasn't been nearly as much talk about them since they started crapping the bed.

Ksyrup 05-27-2009 04:04 PM

Porcello's been too good to be true.

Travis 05-27-2009 04:29 PM

Wow are the Jays in freefall right now. Positive side is that if they can get the ship righted they're still right in the thick of things in the AL East and Wildcard, but that said, blowing a solid start by Halladay that would have ended the losing streak is not a good sign. Looks like the strain to cobble together a starting rotation has started to take it's toll on the pen.

Only other glimmer is that while it's been the bats to blame for most of this losing streak, they came to life today, so assuming the pen can regain their usual form, they may snap out of this soon (gulp).

Crapshoot 05-27-2009 04:46 PM

I'm not going to side with MBBF here (who really is as "special" as he reads), but I don't think you can say there's no advantage. For the most part, Yankees excluded, every team in baseball can compete - teams like the Mets, the Yanks and the Red Sox just have a great advantage in that they can overcome their mistakes much easier. That being said, a team that pays Kyle Farnsworth $5M a year, Jose Guillen $12M per year, and Willie Blomquis $1.5M per year has little room to complain. And hell, I don't want an NFL style salary cap in place - baseball is just fine, thank you.

Ronnie Dobbs2 05-27-2009 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot (Post 2034364)
I'm not going to side with MBBF here (who really is as "special" as he reads), but I don't think you can say there's no advantage.


I don't think anyone is saying that.

Lathum 05-27-2009 07:16 PM

Jesus, what a bomb by Dunn

DeToxRox 05-27-2009 07:22 PM

Yawn these debates about payroll is absurd. Forbes had something where the Tigs are down 6% in revenue and while Illitch didn't go add a lot, he also didn't panic and go firesale guys. All these guys are billionaires and if they want to spend it they will.

Some owners want to win at all costs and some want to win second and maximize their dollar first.

People who bitch about it need to go find a new team to root for then.

Logan 05-27-2009 08:13 PM

Wow, pretty sure the Mets just got a beneficial call on a replay...HR Dan Murphy.

Lathum 05-27-2009 08:22 PM

That better be the last time Martinez pulls that.

Logan 05-27-2009 08:26 PM

To LS, any other Nats fans, fans in the RF stands say it wasn't a HR.

fantom1979 05-27-2009 08:36 PM

I didn't see anyone mention this....



Zambrano might be getting a little vacation. After seeing another angle, I think the umpire made contact with Carlos.

Neuqua 05-27-2009 09:00 PM

The umpire was the one who initiated the bump and I hope MLB sees that.

I did love Z tossing the baseball out into the outfield though.

MrDNA 05-27-2009 09:11 PM

Clearly the Ump who initiated that, and you can read Z's lips as he ejects the Ump (P.S. LOL) as something to the effect, "No, it was you!" I don't think anything he did after that should incur a fine, either, as he had just been "assaulted" by the authority figure.

Lathum 05-27-2009 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2034173)
And destroys team chemistry everywhere he goes. No thanks.


So they just told this story during the Mets broadcast.

Apparently Sheffield's bat company sent him a special commerative bat to celebrate his 500th home run and Shef got a special one made for each guy on the team, signed it and personally gave them out.

You're right, he's horrible for the clubhouse.

DeToxRox 05-27-2009 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 2034632)
So they just told this story during the Mets broadcast.

Apparently Sheffield's bat company sent him a special commerative bat to celebrate his 500th home run and Shef got a special one made for each guy on the team, signed it and personally gave them out.

You're right, he's horrible for the clubhouse.


Sheff's my favorite player but he has issues when things don't go his way. That said he was never a problem here in Detroit but he had to move on and it was best for both parties.

Hate the Mets, but I love Sheff.

Shkspr 05-27-2009 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan (Post 2034523)
To LS, any other Nats fans, fans in the RF stands say it wasn't a HR.



On the other hand, when facing the Nats pitching staff sometimes you just have to go with Occam's Razor and assume any fly ball to the outfield is a home run unless proven otherwise.

BishopMVP 05-27-2009 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2 (Post 2034190)
Which ones were ruined by clubhouse spats?

All those Reggie Jackson teams that won the WS, every Manny Ramirez team that has made the playoffs and won the WS, all those SF teams Barry Bonds single-handedly carried to playoff contention (ok, he had help from Jeff Kent). The Gary Sheffield teams that have made the playoffs and won the WS. Milton Bradley has mostly been on winning teams. Need I go on? It's almost like there's a positive correlation between good-hitting asshole/"cancer" OF and winning %. Probably because good hitting has a tangible and positive effect on a baseball's team chances to win and good chemistry has absolutely no effect.

BishopMVP 05-27-2009 09:45 PM

Oh, also, who wants Brad Penny? Mets, Phillies, Brewers? Royals maybe? He's turning it around...

larrymcg421 05-27-2009 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BishopMVP (Post 2034647)
All those Reggie Jackson teams that won the WS, every Manny Ramirez team that has made the playoffs and won the WS, all those SF teams Barry Bonds single-handedly carried to playoff contention (ok, he had help from Jeff Kent). The Gary Sheffield teams that have made the playoffs and won the WS. Milton Bradley has mostly been on winning teams. Need I go on? It's almost like there's a positive correlation between good-hitting asshole/"cancer" OF and winning %. Probably because good hitting has a tangible and positive effect on a baseball's team chances to win and good chemistry has absolutely no effect.


I wouldn't say chemistry has no effect. It depends on the team. I certainly don't think you can diminish the effect that someone like Terry Pendleton had on a young 1991 Braves squad. But I do agree that a HR is a HR, even if it is hit by an asshole.

RedKingGold 05-27-2009 10:02 PM

Heck, there was stuff going on in the Phillies clubhouse during their 2008 regular season.

It was clear that there is/was no love lost for Burrell in the clubhouse and Utley has (or at least had in the minor leagues) a bit of a prima donna attitude.

samifan24 05-27-2009 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BishopMVP (Post 2034649)
Oh, also, who wants Brad Penny? Mets, Phillies, Brewers? Royals maybe? He's turning it around...


Clay Bucholz doesn't care as long as he gets Penny's spot in the rotation before Smoltz comes back.

samifan24 05-27-2009 10:44 PM

Ben Francisco completely owns Andy Sonnanstine. He hit another HR off Sonnanstine and drove in 4 runs off him tonight. He hit HRs in three consecutive at-bats vs. Sonnanstine already this year.

Here are Francisco's career numbers against Sonnanstine:

8-for-9, 5 HR, 12 RBI

I know it's a small sample size but I've never personally seen one player own another like this. It's also fresh in my mind because Tampa Bay and Cleveland have played each other twice in the last three weeks.

JS19 05-27-2009 10:55 PM

Nats got rid of D. Cabrera....I thought this kid had a lot of potential a few yrs back. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I remember him bringing it at 97-98 mph in like the 7th inning. Quite possible I have no clue what I'm talking about, but maybe with a solid pitching coach he can turn it around.

BishopMVP 05-27-2009 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifan24 (Post 2034722)
Clay Bucholz doesn't care as long as he gets Penny's spot in the rotation before Smoltz comes back.

Can't we just put Lester on the phantom DL and admit that having him throw 250 innings last year was a mistake?

Atocep 05-27-2009 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS19 (Post 2034732)
Nats got rid of D. Cabrera....I thought this kid had a lot of potential a few yrs back. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I remember him bringing it at 97-98 mph in like the 7th inning. Quite possible I have no clue what I'm talking about, but maybe with a solid pitching coach he can turn it around.


Leo Mazzone couldn't get him straightened out. I seriously doubt anyone can.

But yes, he's all screwed up now. He's lost 5mph or so off of his fastball and his control has somehow gotten worse.

sterlingice 05-28-2009 12:07 AM

Guess I picked a good couple of days to get bogged down at work and stay off the board.

Everyone knows where I stand on this- and, again I do appreciate the fans of teams, all of which have some stupid contracts, enumerating which ones suck for us. We already know them, but, please continue to point them out. Again, money buys mistakes- that's the whole point- ours keep us from having a better team, others can wallpaper over their mistakes easier. Anyways, something a little different today:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox (Post 2034480)
All these guys are billionaires and if they want to spend it they will.


Actually, not true at all. I've tried to dig up the numbers and Forbes list of richest people. It's actually a lot harder to track down net worth of the super rich than you would think. But here's what I've found in previous excursions and putting things together by memory.

Some of them are billionaires, yes. I think the last Forbes list I found that had all of the world's billionaires was 2006 and I want to say something like 11 owners were on it. But most are hundred millionaires. I know, don't break out the world's smallest violins yet. But when you're playing a game that asks you to shell out $100M+ per year- a bad attendance year like this is going to be can eat up a pretty big chunk of money. How many of those do you want to risk on your net worth before you give up and say "I'm not risking my life's work on this game" and getting out.

The counter to that is simple, tho. The valuations of teams continues to skyrocket so even if you lose some liquid cash, you'll still have made some value. It's like paying a mortgage pre-bubble: even if you lose some cash with a stupid ARM, no big deal because you bought the house for $150K and it's now valued at $400K. It works as long as someone out there is willing to buy and so far there have been no shortage of buyers paying premium prices to buy an MLB team.

Also, the fact that there aren't a lot of teams up for sale tells you that they aren't losing a bunch of money even if they are losing it. But let's not underestimate how often it's happened in the last 10 years either. Sure, there are the fiascoes in Montreal and Florida. But it's not just debacles like that. The Cubs just got sold. The Dodgers and Red Sox have been sold in the last 10 years. Braves and Reds, too.

So, what's that say? It looks like quite a few owners are trying to lock in their gains and get out. There are also situations where some owners who never should have been in it in the first place were just looking to dump the team (see: Warner, Time). Either way, there's not going to be much movement in this economic climate so it's not surprising we'd see a bunch of market contraction as we did over the winter.

FYI: This year's Forbes list was almost "comical" as the top 3 each lost over $20B in value this past year- Gates, Buffet, and the phone mogul from Mexico. But they're still the 3 richest at something like 35B, 30B, and 25B.

SI

JS19 05-28-2009 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 2034751)
Leo Mazzone couldn't get him straightened out. I seriously doubt anyone can.

But yes, he's all screwed up now. He's lost 5mph or so off of his fastball and his control has somehow gotten worse.



Interesting. Never followed him through his career, but I do remember watching a game when he was with the O's and saying "wow". Checked out his stats, he had a 8.8 SO/9 yr, followed by a 9.5 SO/9. Pretty impressive for a young kid who, you would think, would only get better.

Atocep 05-28-2009 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS19 (Post 2034761)
Interesting. Never followed him through his career, but I do remember watching a game when he was with the O's and saying "wow". Checked out his stats, he had a 8.8 SO/9 yr, followed by a 9.5 SO/9. Pretty impressive for a young kid who, you would think, would only get better.


I believe he was considered the pitcher to have the best stuff on the O's between him and Bedard. Watching him last night he hit 97 once or twice, but was mostly working in the low 90s. Keith Hernandez even commented on how his velocity was down from what it used to be.

Atocep 05-28-2009 01:47 AM

Someone tell the marlins that its not the 1st week of april anymore and its ok to move Emilio Bonifacio and his sub .300 OBP/SLG percentages out of the lineup or at least out of the leadoff spot.

Ksyrup 05-28-2009 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifan24 (Post 2034722)
Clay Bucholz doesn't care as long as he gets Penny's spot in the rotation before Smoltz comes back.


I believe Smoltz's rehab clock expires by June 19th, so he will have to be activated by then and will get a rotation spot regardless.

Ksyrup 05-28-2009 07:26 AM

I don't know how the Nats have been drawing since opening day, but they should sell out next Wednesday. Randy Johnson will be going for #300.

ISiddiqui 05-28-2009 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 2034774)
Someone tell the marlins that its not the 1st week of april anymore and its ok to move Emilio Bonifacio and his sub .300 OBP/SLG percentages out of the lineup or at least out of the leadoff spot.


I just looked at his numbers :eek:

.246/.286/.296 for an OPS of .583 and an OPS+ of 54. :eek: :eek:

And he's had 199 At Bats, by far the most on on the Marlins?! WTF?!

samifan24 05-28-2009 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS19 (Post 2034761)
Interesting. Never followed him through his career, but I do remember watching a game when he was with the O's and saying "wow". Checked out his stats, he had a 8.8 SO/9 yr, followed by a 9.5 SO/9. Pretty impressive for a young kid who, you would think, would only get better.


Cabrera always had that "wow" factor. You'd watch and one inning he'd blow everyone away with his stuff and the next inning he'd walk the bases loaded. I agree with those that said if Mazzone couldn't straighten him out, no one probably can. He has all the talent in the world but zero control. I think Fausto Carmona is headed down the same path.

Ronnie Dobbs2 05-28-2009 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifan24 (Post 2034906)
I think Fausto Carmona is headed down the same path.


Maybe add Dice-K and Liriano to the list.

DaddyTorgo 05-28-2009 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BishopMVP (Post 2034735)
Can't we just put Lester on the phantom DL and admit that having him throw 250 innings last year was a mistake?


Poor Lester :(

DaddyTorgo 05-28-2009 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS19 (Post 2034761)
Interesting. Never followed him through his career, but I do remember watching a game when he was with the O's and saying "wow". Checked out his stats, he had a 8.8 SO/9 yr, followed by a 9.5 SO/9. Pretty impressive for a young kid who, you would think, would only get better.


you didn't happen to look at his BB/9 for those years at the same time, did you? :) the guy has always had crazy electric stuff, but horrific control.

i seem to recall a game with the O's where he walked 4 straight batters and something like 6 guys in 2 innings or something crazy.

JS19 05-28-2009 09:17 AM

That's a shame what happened to Liriano. Such a dominant yr in '06. I wonder, if Liriano stayed healthy and continued his dominance (not that I think he would have remained that dominant, but still have ace type stuff), if that would have changed the whole Johan situation. I know the Twins don't like to pay their players, but how can you deny a 1-2 punch of an '06 Liriano and Santana.

DaddyTorgo 05-28-2009 09:23 AM

Interesting points by whoever was sitting in with Orsillo last night doing the Sox game (I was tuning in and out so I didn't really hear/see who it was)...that that's just the way Dice learned to pitch in Japan and he's never changed his approach, and at this point likely never will. It's how he is comfortable pitching (being a nibbler). His control is great when he needs it to be, he just grew up managing games by throwing a ton of pitches and nibbling, instead of pitching to contact, and he can't change that now. So where in Japan he can go deep into games because of high pitch counts, here because of more patient hitters and such, he is a 5-6 IP, 100-110 pitch guy. His P/PA is at 4.0 since he came over (and 17.3 per IP) versus say 3.54 and 14.3 for someone like Halladay.

He's been horrible this year (injury+?), but let's not forget he was 18-3 with a sub-3.00 ERA last year.

Ronnie Dobbs2 05-28-2009 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2034957)
He's been horrible this year (injury+?), but let's not forget he was 18-3 with a sub-3.00 ERA last year.


Yes, if you buy into the idea that Dice-K, since he's from the mysterious land of Japan and isn't used to the ways of the white man, is the one pitcher who will outperform his secondary stats (FB%, FIP). For me, the more logical way to look at it is that Dice-K got EXTREMELY lucky last year (the last 15 batters against him with the bases loaded are 0-15) and what Dice-K is looking like this year is more likely him going forward.


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