Looks like Matrix plans to recoup as much $$ off this game as they can.Screwing their customers HARD!

I'd be interested to know if they ever end up releasing a demo.

Erik claims your screenie doesn't exist Ant. He says "our policy has always been: all sales are final."

please can we see the screenie? i want to have justification for my new matrix-disliking ways...

*cough* post Chris...post. I love a good scandal!

I do have copies of the e-mail I used for the refund, if it can be used to assist anybody else.

can we get some hell-giving please???

Give 'em hell, Ant!

fucking timestamp bug!

can you pull that website up in your browser history without refreshing it?

The funny thing is when I went and tried to get the refund the first time, they referred to me to their refund policy (a link to a website), which stated the 14 day refund policy.

thats how I found out about it. It only took a few e-mails and they agreed to refund it. I've been fully credited with the money already.

Let me check something else out.......

This is the actual website I went to for a refund. I copies it over to notepad to paste here and removed some of the personal data.

Agreement to Destroy Intellectual Property
This AGREEMENT (the "Agreement") is made and entered into by and between Digital River, Inc., a Delaware corporation (hereinafter "Digital River") and xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxx (hereinafter "Customer"). The Customer agrees to take the necessary measures to delete and destroy the intellectual property described below and licensed to Customer for use under the terms of the Publisher's license agreement.

Product Name: Maximum-Football
Product Description: Digital Download PC
Publisher: Matrix Games

Digital River shall refund the purchase price of the product to the Customer and report the product as "destroyed" to the software vendor once this letter has been executed by the Customer and received at Digital River. Customer acknowledges that any continued use of the software product would constitute willful copyright infringement for which customer may be liable for civil damages of up to $100,000.
This form must be filled out completely to ensure proper credit.

Date: 17-MAR-06
Address: xxxx xxxxxxxx xxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx, xx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxx

Company:
E-mail Address:[email protected]

Product Serial Number:xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx
Purchase Date:xx-xxx-xx
Reason for Refund: Customer Satisfaction Issue

Screw their refund policy. If you paid by credit card do a chargeback. Collect your reasons why and the issues you are having between what was offered and what you received. If they start getting pounded by chargebacks, it is going to really screw them long term.

bingo. and i think you pretty much hafta pay by CC at any kind of online store, if you have half a brain.

cue the OOTP guy that always asks for someone to buy him the game because his mom won't let him use her CC anymore...

:D

Guys, I am an idiot. I did screenshot the image, but I didn't paste it. I then did a screen shot on another site and I screwed myself. I hope some people saw it though. I swear it was there.

Dola....

And this incident really teed me off. It is research time.
I am going to find a cached version of that page somewhere.

wow. whatever respect I had built up for Erik over there just vanished.

and they locked the thread. unbelievable.

The developer chat tonight is either going to be crickets chirping, or some serious fireworks. Nothing in between.

Wow, can you say, shady business practices?

Going to yahoo and loading the cached version there and then following the link to the return policy of MAtrix games gave me this:




Edit: I don't know how to paste the page...sorry.

where/when is the developers chat?

testing link

http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/v2/ec...=10342&pn=1#q1

Thanks Bee, that is exactly what I saw. Please share that link if you can.

Ugh, that's what I got too... nothing about a 14 day return policy... bastards :mad:

It's in about 45 minutes. Here is the link with info I got off of Gamespot.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sports/ma...ml?sid=6120602

Interesting that the Matrix site doesn't have anything about it at all...

;)

I get a weird error when trying to access that page on the return policy.

man, this is some shifty shit from Matrix.

Looks like the return policy is different based on Europe vs US. The 14 day return policy has European phone number, etc. The no return policy has US phone number.

Unfortunately, you have the wrong year. That was last year. He mentioned he was going to do another one, but I guess he changed his mind.

Trying another link:

http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/v2/ec...P=0&CACHE_ID=0

From this I was able to go to StoreFAQ and then Return policy and get the 14 day return policy.

LOL! I just looked a little closer at the press release from Matrix that is in the link I posted above.


I'm just speechless...

this whole no refund thing reminds me of the little talk I had with Quicksand a few pages back, about the fairness of asking for a full price on a game that's not close to being ready to possibly milk out as much money early on and then drop the price...

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...34#post1074834

FM

you do realize that this is dated of 2005, right?

FM

and yes, the game was due out soon even last year at this day :)

Nice work

Thanks for the tip, Ant. Otherwise I would have been a lonely guy over there.

hey look...the FAQ link lists a 14 day return policy!

oh but wait...that appears to be for European orders. so why does Europe have a return policy but the USA/Canda is "all sales final" ?? that's fucked up

They seems to have quite a number of people liking the game.

D'oh! I just saw that it was the 2nd item on the "Latest Gamespot Updates" section of their website.

That would explain the lack of info on the Matrix site...

:D

Still, the bolded parts I made of the press release are relevant.

Yep Europe and UK have 14 day return policy with Matrix Games, but US, Canada, Australia and Other Countries have no return policy.

My advice, when calling them speak with an English or French accent. :D

Damn, I got all good and liquored up for an online chat that was one year ago tonight. Oh well, I can attribute it to my Irish genes.

Baby Jeebus laughs at my pathetic state.

:D

I grabbed a couple of screen captures of the refund policy. ant, you going to post a screenie over there?

Of course I'm French. Where do you think I got this OUTRAGEOUS accent?

:D

Forgive this idiot, but how do you know all sales are final for the US and Canada? I can't see it :confused:

If you go to their store page, it gives you the option of selecting what country. I went through the options (US, Canada, UK, Europe, Australia, Other) and the only ones that had the 14 day policy were UK and Europe.

Edited to say store page instead of home page. My mistake.

because if you get the FAQ that has the US phone numbers on it you get a "all sales are final" return policy.

i assume there are 2 different versions of the FAQ, not sure how the server knows which one to serve you though.

It used to say it for the US though. I saw it.

huh. this is interesting. I was on the north american version of the website, but when i clicked on the refund/return policy, the EU site popped up.

I started here:

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=d...icp=1&.intl=us

clicked on the return policy link and ended up here:

http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/v2/ec...=10342&pn=1#q1

Since I was using a cached version of the website, is it fair to assume that at some point, that return policy link was good for both the EU and North American websites and has since been changed to reflect only the EU website?

Or, they haven't realized that they need to change the EU website as well.

Well, it's not like they'd have to create a new page or something. It's either page A or page B inside the US Frame. I'm guessing it would take about 2 seconds to make the change, but I'm not a website guy so maybe there's more to it. *shrug*


Edit: And I'd be shocked if Matrix Games couldn't edit their own policy page and had to rely on Digital River to make revisions to their policies. I could see it for the store section, but not the rest of it. Again, I don't know but it doesn't make sense to me.

But Erik has already gone on record saying it would take MUCH longer than 5 minutes to make a change.

Wow... I keep thinking this thread is gonna die.. and somehow, it just gets better and better.

I really want to be supportive of indie developers and all... but I'm finding it rather difficult to have much sympathy for Mr. Winters here...

Just what this thread has really needed...

Maybe he was basing his estimate on the development cycle of Maximum Football?

I'm sure once they read it here, they'll change it real quick.

BOOBIES!!!!!!!!!1111@!@@LOL@@@!!!

Ah, but I've already contacted Erin Brockovich!

That's quite a pair.

Ok, I shared the proof and hopefully. Thanks Bee for pointing it out. I thought I was going to be painted a liar.

From over at the Matrix forums...


Like Zed was behind Marcellus??? :D

Holy crap! There's been a Dolemite sighting at the Matrix Forums.

I REPEAT, THERE'S BEEN A DOLEMITE SIGHTING AT THE MATRIX FORUMS!!!

Wow, I guess I shoulda put a Dola on the previous post... :D

Murphy strikes...
 

Allright. First of all, do you all seriously think that we would:

1. Not know our return policy.
2. Lie about it
3. Screw our customers after spending years working our asses off to build up a good reputation

Seriously? It turns out AntMeister was right about the return policy link and I was wrong, but I never accused him of lying. I logged in to find him accusing us of secretly changing the policy somehow, within five minutes of his first post. My assumption was that he somehow went to the wrong link or the wrong Digital River store, since I followed his link and got our usual policy, not the one he saw.

Anyway, it seems that Digital River has created a major embarrassment for us and we were stupid enough not to catch it earlier. I'm not sure when this glitch crept in, but it looks like some, but not all, of their servers have some kind of default store text that the store template starts with rather than our return policy, which has been "all sales are final" every time I've clicked on it since we put the store up 2 or 3 years about with DR.

There has been no dishonesty, no conspiracy and no attempt to screw anyone. Every link I clicked on from AntMeister said "all sales are final" until I started refreshing multiple times, then it finally showed the glitch. What there has been is a screw-up.

We have always given refunds despite that policy to customers for whom the game didn't work and were within minimum spec. We're not looking to sell anyone a coaster. However, giving refunds because a game is subjectively not what the customer expected has never been a policy for us. We do our best to help get the game running, to support it after release and to make sure it's worth buying before release. I understand some folks are disappointed with M-F as there were issues on release that we did not find or expect to be there. Our policy remains to fix those issues in order to get the product to the expected level, then to further support and improve the product to give our customers value for their money.

We'll be discussing this store server screw-up with the refund policy over the weekend and with Digital River on Monday.

Regards,

- Erik

rofl

So he will get a refund?

Cause this is not Ant's fault that DR screwed up.

This is turning into an even bigger disaster than I thought it would.

And, make no mistake, I was expecting a very significant disaster.

Obviously you don't seem to know it very well, at best.


Combat Leader still on the way! Woot! :rolleyes:


Fortress Europe.

Hi Erik,

I'm sure that with all of the other games Matrix has been associated with, the refund policy has never been an issue. I am certain of this, because if you go to the "official" Internet Archive, the screens shown by Antmeister have been there all along.

If this was advertised as a football framework, and nothing else, then you might have a leg to stand on. But since this has been hyped as a Canadian, American, and indoor simulation, then it is clear the game has fallen quite short.

Shaun Sullivan has been a shining beacon for how independent developers can ply their trade. Don't let this fiasco take anything away from the incredible work he has done.

Sad.

We know it very well, unfortunately we apparently need to check up on the store site more carefully.


No, in fact we announced that it was not and the unfortunate reasons why. What does this have to do with lying? Every game development project that starts does not finish. We started CL when we were new on the block and started promoting it and discussing it _way_ too early. We learned from that not to announce or promote products until they are much closer to release and more certain to be completed.


Our one and only disaster. One of our very first releases way back in our first year, dropped by the developer as soon as we released it. I freely admit that was a very hard lesson for us to learn, but we learned it and have not repeated it since. We removed that from sale once we realized that the developer simply would not support it, no matter what we did. M-F is not Fortress Europe, not by a longshot.

It's clear that for some reason you have nothing good to say about us, though I have no idea what we've done to you.

Regards,

- Erik

Cartman,

This has nothing to do with Shaun or any of our other developers. This has to do with our screw-up in not checking the store links as thoroughly as we should have and DRs in not setting the policy to what it should have been.

Anyway, any further updates regarding this will be on our forum.

Regards,

- Erik

That's bullshit, obviously you haven't read the MatrixGames Forums. Everything that's unlocked is good to say about you.

You can say this doesn't have anything to do with them, but the way you handle dissatisifed customers with one product does reflect on every other developer you handle whether you wish it to or not.

I never stated that this had anything to do with any of your other developers.

I simply stated that this product is probably the first time you've ever had to review what DR has posted for Matrix as a return policy.

As an example, I pointed to Shaun Sullivan as a way that independant developers should conduct themselves. Shaun has continually asked the sim market about the progress of his project, and has asked for and accepted input to the direction his software has taken. In addition, Shaun had an established rep as a modder for the FPS product family.

First of all, I am going to give Erik props for even posting on this thread instead of starting a new one.

Second, as you will notice, most of us keep opinions about this whole situation here to show of voice of displeasure from how the developer handled himself before and after release of the product.

But Erik, I think what people are basically saying is that many of us saw a number of problems from just watching videos and viewing screenshots and this somehow got past your beta team.

The whole gist of this thread is how someone could release something that was obviously buggy. EagleFan (or EF on your message board) and a number of others 'tested the waters' based on your company's reputation of releasing good quality games.

You must fully admit that this is not the quality of product you are used to releasing to the public and to not allow a refund is actually wrong. It may work on their computer, but it is no where close to a football simulation. That alone should be grounds to allow for a refund in this case. Just put yourself in the buyer's shoes.

Companies gotta protect there investments especially small companies otherwise anyone can just get a refund and still keep the cdkey. They can use licenses like TPF but that type of licensing sucks.

All due respect, Thornbird, but I don't see anyone that's asking for a refund as being a person that would derive long term satisfaction from this game.

Wow... just wow... it's like a train wreck that just doesn't stop.

Just wanted to bring back what is possibly my favorite post of all-time.

And to think HA was ready to bury this thread with his inane mustache contest posting a few pages ago.

A slight understatment I think :D

MF has passed a threshold for me, where free is too expensive, and it would take being paid significantly more than I earn to play it. Ironically, I'm starting to feel a little sympathy for Winter in a strange way, it's not that disimilar from being a long time Jets fan: you know they suck, are always going to suck and that the Parcells years were just a cock tease to be followed by several years of blue balls, but you just can't help yourself from hoping they stumble arse backwards into good fortune.

Antmeister you should give up your day job and become an investigative reporter.

I can't take all the credit. This was collaborative. Chris first mentioned that he was able to get a refund based on what he saw on a web page. I just looked it up and posted it. All of the sudden, the details change and Bee found the other link that still retained the info. But thanks for the compliments anyways.

Somehow we need to get a tape of Great Whites sport show. I was thinking of firing off an email to the FIU broadcasting department to see if they had any archived.

Interestingly, someone on Matrix posted that it's an EU law to offer refunds. I don't know if that's correct, but the Australian store has the no refunds text and I was sure Aussies had full retail protection for store bought and downloaded software.

Clearly they came up with this idea after MF was released.

Why anyone bought this game, especially at $40 a pop is beyond me.

DR? As in Digital River? We need a ROFLMAO smilie...

If Digital River, acting as agent for Matrix games, promoted a refund policy, and broadcast that to customers who relied on it, then Digital River is bound by that admission. Principals are responsible for the actions of their agents under American law.

And if Matrix games then refuses to offer that refund, most states would allow you to bring an unfair and deceptive trade practices suit (which, among other things, may include attorneys fees and triple damages). Of course, the real money would be in an unfair and deceptive trade practices class action. The details are, as always, where the devil is, but there is certainly enough in the framework that I have seen to interest some ambulance chasers.

American law simply does not allow you to sell products based on fradulent representations--even if you later claim that the fraud was a "mistake" or a "miscommunication."

Erik, if you are still reading, you really should run this by the guys in legal. You may have really opened more of a can of worms than you intended by having your agent represent that you have a refund policy.

Honestly, I have no idea who you are. I didn't even realize you were on our forums.

I agree with that in general. We have always handled customers in accordance with our policies, but taking mitigating circumstances into account. We've bent the rules in many cases to the customer's benefit and we have a good record in taking care of our customers and supporting our games.

The real issue that brought this up is the screw-up between us and the store on the displayed policy vs. the actual policy and that's what we have to deal with. We should have an answer for that on Monday.

Regards,

- Erik

I agree that Shaun is awesome. However, I get disturbed when folks keep bringing other developers into this. Let's keep this to Matrix and M-F.

This is certainly not the first time we've had to review our refund policy and we've consistently had this policy from our first days. However, this is the first time we've gone to the store and found a link (thanks to Antmeister) that says something different from our policy. We need to find out what happened there, when it happened and then decide on how to address it.

Regards,

- Erik

I have to say, this type of escalation just isn't helpful and I think you know that. Once I saw a link that actually displayed the problem, I posted about it and stated we had to discuss internally and with DR how to deal with it. The earliest this can happen is Monday, since the right people at DR won't be available until then, particularly in their European operation.

Those of you who don't have M-F, haven't requested a refund and didn't buy it through the European store, I'd appreciate if you'd chill for a few days and give us a chance to sort this out with our _customers_ in a fair way. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik

Why would that be disturbing? It's pretty much common sense to know one product can affect an entire brand.

I personally wouldn't support a game or a company that would release such an unstable product because it shows a lack of intelligence on their part, and a lack of respect for their customers intelligence.

I was talking out of a general observation that Matrix Games is not interested in opposing or critical views of their products or practices and tends to shut down threads that put Matrix Games or their products in a negative light. Which is understandable, as you are out to make money.

But what you are left with, is a bunch of "Matrix Games is the best game ever threads." Or, to be more clear, the kind of positive points you are looking for.

But for the most part, I like Matrix Games. I generally have no complaints. If I had any, it would be the false advertising of Fortress Europe (lying about how much fun everybody was having at Matrix playing it, prior to release). The teaseware that draws in customers to look for updates on Combat Leader. The overpricing of game titles. And the unwillingness to step back and take a look at Maximum Football. It just seems horrible. I am not buying this game to add weight to it, so forget about asking me that! I'll work off the reviews. That's it. Everything else about Matrix, so far as I can tell, is pretty darned good.

However, back to M-F, with Matrix Games insistance at banning or locking threads that are critical of Maximum Football, I'll get my reviews from here. And the verdict is out....Matrix Games needs a lot of help before it's ready for sale.

Erik,

I admire your efforts here, but I think you really misread the intent of albion's post. He wasn't escalating anything, but simply offering sound advice that you may want to consider running whatever business decision you make by your legal department (or outside counsel, if need be).

albion is one of several lawyers on this board (I'm in that group too, for better or worse), and I think if you took a straw poll, he would win hands down in terms of his breadth of legal knowledge and his ability to clearly and succinctly summarize that knowledge when relevant.

I appreciate your concern that there is some rabble rousing going on here. Of course there is. But I think that group is outweighed by the folks who have either bought the game or who have followed it closely with genuine interest. Remember these are potential customers not only of Maximum-Football but of Puresim and other Matrix offerings. So, while this particular issue may relate specifically M-F, on a larger scale it does reflect on Matrix as a whole, it's other games, and unfortunately, the other developers with whom it contracts.

As another post asked, why is it disturbing? Isn't PureSim handled by Matrix? I can see your point if people were referencing Jim, Arlie, Gary, Marc, et al. But that's not the case in this instance. I was pointing out how wildly divergent the perception is of PureSim vs. Maximum-Football.

To us "on the inside" of computer sports sims, we know the history and the backgrounds of how the products developed. However, the vast number of consumers only know of the final product, and nothing about how it was made. I have said all along that I hope the Maximum-Football experience doesn't negatively impact PureSim. But, since they are both under the Matrix banner, Joe Consumer assumes they are developed by the same team.

If you think you can make people separate MF/Matrix from the rest of your products, you haven't thought this through.

If I go to a restaurant for the first time and order the fish and get food poisoning, I don't go back a month later and order the steak in hopes that the fish was the only bad thing, I avoid that restaurant like the plague. Honestly, I hadn't heard of Matrix games before M-F and I pretty much have no desire of ordering any games from them.

dito

There is no business model that I'm aware of which does not reward outstanding customer service. Matrix/M-F's efforts to alienate potential customers are just mind-blowing.

Ever waited 15 minutes at a Target or Starbucks ;)

Generally you're right, but some business models are built on volume and an ever expanding customer base, rather than customer loyalty. Not that such a model should apply to Matrix, but software for the majority of publishers is run ignoring customer service completely. They rely on short memories, a disassociation between a current product experience and future products, and a willingness of customers to overlook the most egregious treatment when the feature set of a new game is announced.

Makes you wonder why the PC games market is so unsuccessful...