So, do we feel hoops was forced to vote Gramm? He might not be able to answer my question in a straight forward answer.....

I thought that might be it. It wasn't like you to vote without an explanation.

That is certainly what he is suggesting. However, I don't have 100% trust in Hoops, so it's possible that could be a ruse. I don't think it's likely at this point, but it is possible.

I seriously doubt it. A compelled vote only makes sense at the end of a night.

Unvote Path
Vote hoops

Based on what has happened up to this point, and past behavior in the game, I would be VERY SUSPICIOUS of anyone else later in the day who claims their vote is moved. Which should work to the Jedi advantage in that they can vote for who they want to without worrying about protecting against vote changes later in the day. Not so cool for me, but it frees everyone else up a little bit.

Also, I don't expect that my vote will be moving today.

I’ve already indicated my suspicion of Hoops and would be shocked at this point if he is not Sith

VOTE HOOPS

Ardent, I'm not allowed much wiggle room to comment much on my vote or on the players in this game at the moment, but I completely understand why my vote was compelled at this point.

Not buying it hoops. I know what my instructions were after I felt compelled to vote.

This makes me VERY SUSPICIOUS of you. Interesting that you claim your vote was moved and then state that we should be suspicious of someone else whose vote is moved.

VOTE HOOPS

I'm gonna be out until a couple of hours before the deadline. I'll wait to make a vote until then, to see what course the discussion takes today, then add my part once I'm back online.

KWhit, I don't think that the Sith can move multiple votes in a day. That is where I was headed with this. I know we don't have a huge sample set of evidence to review on this topic, but based on the two days that votes were moved I don't believe they can move multiple votes in a day. I think that would be very, very unbalanced as a game mechanic as well.

Ardent, I know what my instructions said as well and I followed up with Saldana on this to see just what kind of flexibility I could have on this. I don't think this power was meant to put a gag on me for the entire day and that is what I argued. In the movies the effects are a short-term loss of control and I'm going to be afflicted by this for the entire day cycle.

Finally, for those people voting for me - does this plan of action seem even close to the optimal way for a Sith to play, especially given the events up to Day 7?

Two, ah-three, ah-four
Two, ah-three, ah-four
Two, ah-three, ah-four

I really should be saying goodnight
I really shouldn't stay anymore
It's been so long since I held ya
I've forgotten what love is for

I should run
On the double
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble

So come to me darlin' and hold me
Let your honey keep you warm
Been so long since I held ya
I've forgotten what love is for

I should run
On the double
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble

[Instrumental Interlude]

I should run
On the double
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble
I think I'm in trouble

HOOPS - there is a word describing the clothing the person who waved his hand at me was wearing. give me the word and I'll know if you are being truthful.

Oh snap, good job SnDvls. I guess we'll see if he's telling the truth...

That sounds a little meta-gamey to me. I'd wait on a ruling before sharing that so openly.

well AE already shared his which was like mine...I won't describe either any further.

Saldana if you wish I will back off this.

SnDvls, I'm inclined to agree with KWhit on this ... we had a pretty similar mechanic in the "Lost" game with the word simple and I felt like it gave us an unfair advantage.

I've PM'd Saldana asking for a ruling, but I have a couple of descriptive words that I can use from the PM that I bet would go a long ways towards reassuring you. I think the one you are looking for was already used by Ardent at some point, but I've got another one in mind that has not been mentioned here that would clinch it for you if we had identical PMs.

I'll wait for Saldana's ruling on this

Well, the ruling will decide it, but hell, at this point we need any advantage we can get, fair or not! :p

:( :(

no prob. settled and dropped....my bad

Fair ruling, although that kind of sucks for me in this particular case.

no bad feelings on my part. I assumed something and shouldn't have. I guess I just want all this jedi killing to stop.

really?

it doesn't absolutley clear you or damn you. It still puts the question out there about you is all.

If not for you actions today I would not even think of voting for you and I tend to not want to now.

AE & I had our votes switched during a tie vote and yours comes up early that is the only thing that makes me question you.

I apoligize to everyone I should have cleared my question w/ Saldana prior to posting it.

SnDvls, I think it kind of sucks because I could answer the question and gone a long ways towards clearing myself. But I agree that we should try to hold some standards of integrity on how we play the game and that is more important than me advancing to Night 7.

Thus the "fair but sucks" comment.

Saldana, no hard feelings on the ruling here specifically or the game in general. It has been a lot of fun, in a masochistic sort of way. I know you are beating yourself up over last night, but it isn't worth carrying it around past the point of resolving the solution. We can hash some of this stuff out in the post game if people still feel strongly about it then.

okay I'm still leaning towards king and will contine to put my vote there. based on the same reasons I voted him yesterday.

vote king

Votes as of Post #1580:

Gram - Hoopsguy (1538)
King - Penny (1547), SnDvls (1580)
Hoops - Ardent (1555), Grammaticus (1557), KWhit (1560)

Well, this is not a role playing game, it is a werewolf game with a theme. There should be nothing wrong with a player hinting at the message, it is at the core of every game I’ve played in so far. This is a game of truth or lie. Would it have been different if SnDvl asked a different way? It is way outside of Hoops’ normal play style not to be crafty in how he delivers messages with a hint. Instead Hoops is going for the “fair play” ploy to not get tripped up here. Then, oops it sucks because it could clear me, oh darn.

I smell a rat!

Also, who was compelled to switch their vote to Qwik the first time this Sith mind trick happened?

Me.

Ardent was compelled initially on the Qwik/Taz vote on Day 4.

Gram, I would give the information if I could. Obviously it is in my self-interest to do so. And I feel like I have always played the game with a high level of respect for the integrity of play; I would hope that moderators from previous games would acknowledge that. Ardent specifically can vouch that I asked about the use of the word "simple" before ever communicating on it in the "Lost" game ... several hundred posts after other people had dropped it in their role call.

It doesn't mean that I don't play as aggressively as possible within the rules of the game, but I don't try to stretch them to the point of breaking.

In terms of "hints" for today, I'm pretty much forbidden to comment on the remaining players because it could be construed as where I would want my vote to go if I wasn't being compelled to vote for you. So ask questions about my play or thoughts on the dead Jedi and I'll be as helpful as I can. And if I'm alive at the end of the day then we'll see where this game goes.

Any over-the-top claims about my value to the Jedi and being able to win the game for us are going to come off sounding like a Sith trying to buy time. Fact is that we haven't gotten one yet, and I've been as significant a part of the problem as anyone else here.

Judge me on your suspicion level of me versus the other remaining players. Just know that I won't be changing my vote and that I believe that the Sith can't compel anyone else to change their vote today.

I know there was suspicion of Barkeep in the group of him, AE and hoops before he ducked out.

The role wouldn't change when path got it, so I guess the question is, do we still believe there's a Sith in that group, and do we believe that path might be getting a little bit of a free pass with Barkeep not around to serve as a lightning rod for his veteran status?

I believe there to be a Sith among the three of us.

Dola:

I'm content to take hoops, path, and myself down in any order to prove such a theory.

What I meant by hints, is that you would have laid one in your post before SnDvl even asked. As far as what is in your best interest, that remains to be seen. I think not being able to respond to SnDvl’s request IS in your best interest.

Also, I agree with AE, there is a Sith in the group mentioned (Hoops, AE and Path)

Alright, why would the Sith make Jedi change votes to someone else during a 2 man race if both are Jedi? My initial thoughts were they could not move a vote unless a tie occurred. Basically it is a tie breaker logic. For AE and Sun, it was a tie. Now Hoops says it is just happening. There’s that rat I smell again.

Ardent, did anyone compel you to act in any event other than the tie situation? Did someone use Jedi mind tricks to make you vote for yourself at other points during the trip to Embleton?

I've felt completely normal other than the time I wanted to vote for Qwikshot.

I agree with this. And the dola.

You might be putting effect before cause here. We've seen vote switches twice in ties, but have we seen anything to suggest that they can only influence votes in those cases?

I submit that it causes more chaos when it happens late, and so it has been in their interest to do it then. I further submit the reason we haven't seen more of it is for precisely what's happening with hoops right now: people are starting to get suspicious.

I could see a scenario in which the Sith use the vote switch for precisely that reason - to make people suspect a Jedi. Is that what's happening here? I don't know.

But the possibility is there.

Well, if they can just switch, I’m under the impression they have not done it yet in the game except when there was a tie. I believe this because no other Jedi has come forward and indicated otherwise. If they simply have chosen not to use it, why? There have been other close votes, why would they not use it then? Or why not use it to screw with us earlier in the game?

That is a very big power to just not use outside of a tie until now. I have not seen any offsetting power or balance to that power to exist among the Jedi. Plus, I think Saldana told us that we would not like the tie breaker. All of this makes me think it is a tie breaker logic.

One thing that sounds consistent among everyone is there is a Sith amongst AE, Hoops and Path. I say we take Hoops first and then go from there.

If we play through the weekend like we did last weekend, I'd just assume you vote me out tomorrow.

I'm going home tomorrow morning and likely will not be on the computer for much of the weekend.

That's not to say I'm being a defeatist...but if we look to nail the three of us on lynches, I'd volunteer today or tomorrow, because I won't be available afterward.

About the only time I could possibly be online is early in the mornings of Saturday and Sunday.

Probably because it has the effect of getting somebody killed who might not otherwise have been, which then puts the switchee on the hot seat. Do we believe them? Do we not?

If you use it in just a close vote to widen or narrow the gap, it doesn't have the same impact. People wonder what's going on, but it's not chaos.

I think they were probably trying to maximize the effect of it, since it would naturally have a diminishing impact.

On another tangent, using it on another Sith to try and clear them might be a useful ploy, but they would have had to do that sooner rather than later, for the same reasons I've offered above.


Because we've been doing a damn fine job of screwing with ourselves, so using a power of limited utility in such a way that doesn't add to their kill count *and* spread confusion probably didn't seem worth it.


Maybe. I could see giving the Sith control over tiebreakers to compensate for a numbers discrepancy. It's not a ludicrous idea, and you may even be right, but I still think they probably had a little more latitude with it than that.

Now whether they're using it on hoops or not is the million dollar question. By saving it for tonight when there might be a tie, that maybe clears him, because "Oh look, tiebreaker."

By using it in the morning, when there's no tie to break, it causes confusion, suspicion against hoops for a break with precedent, and just generally throws us a curveball we weren't expecting.


That seems to be the consensus. I still believe AE to be clear. Hoops is a possibility, given the day's discussion, but something inside me is just trying to get my attention about path. I'm going to have to consider this vote carefully before I cast it.

I can neither confirm nor deny that there is a Sith among the three players that you listed. But taking an approach of systematically eliminating the three players until you find a Sith is very possibly going to result in a loss if you miss on the first two guesses.

We know that Dubb was evil, if not Sith. Which side do you think he was on?
If there are only two Sith, do you think their victory condition was shrink 21-2 down to 2-2 so they have even numbers?
I'm guessing that the Sith have to:
a.) survive up to a certain day
b.) have other non-sith in the game (Dubb as an example) who count as Sith in terms of votes

If it is scenario a.) then we are in bad shape. Day 7 would seem like a pretty convenient day for wrapping up a game. But it could extend out a little further, depending on how roles were balanced. Given that there is a tie-breaker and there has only been one night kill stopped, I don't think we would have the luxury of Day 10 if this is the mechanic.

If it is scenario b.) then how many Sith + sympathizers started the game? Initial speculation was something like 4-5, so lets take Dubb out of the mix. 3-4 Sith + sympathizers left? A wrong lynch + death tonight and we are just about out of time. A correct lynch today on a brutal wolf puts us in a similar spot.

I don't know if any of this is accurate, but I do know that starting with me today isn't getting us any closer to a win and is moving us closer to a loss.

My vote will be for path or hoops. Right now, it is on hoops. I'd like to see one of them lynched. If the majority vote path, I'll move my vote that way as well.

One other thought about my availability...if you would rather me drop out and have someone step in, I'd understand. Personally, I would rather not...as I feel replaced players make the game incredibly difficult to play, as is the case of barkeep/path, no offense to either player intended.

If the group wants to go with a Barkeep/path, hoops, or AE vote I'll take my vote off of King because it would essentially be meaningless and switch to one of those three.

DITTO