Ok, assuming all the speeches are written by pros on both sides...this speech just isnt very good and this past 2 weeks we've seen some spectacular speeches, truly. Obama's and Palin's were masterful....

this one is the worst of them all I think. Granted Im sure I didnt see ALL of the speeches of ALL of the days but this seems to be the most disconnected, most interrupted (unfortunately), most poorly executed, etc. This writer needed help, apparently. Now perhaps its a better speech on paper but he needs to understand his deliverer and if it's a known struggler than he needed to tweak it for that....you have to know your audience...but you also have to know who's at the podium.

sorry, thats my opinion

Yep, it's a good thing McCain has Palin because he's really dull.

That was an odd section. We messed this up...we messed that up...and now we're going to fix it.

The Republicans screwed up government, vote Republican, argument seems really difficult to pull off.

Dull and awkward up front, but he seems to be hitting his stride in talking about core GOP positions.

I really don't see Americans going for the veteran senator offering reform/change in Washington.

He's coming off worse than W would've right now. I mean, McCain is better unscripted anyway. He is, if nothing else...being specific enough to clarify the difference between the Dems and the GOP. And he's been way less technical in his speech than Barry. Though Obama is getting way better at it.

He's improved this whole cycle, I can't see him slaying the Clintons and choking on a guy who W beat in 2000. It'll be close from now 'til November, but the GOP sales pitch is a moving target just like the Clintons was. Even if they slime, I can't see how they emerge from this thing with a win.

That's crazy talk, why...wait, what's that?

Wow, his description of what he'll do is scaring me, and I would think, scaring middle class Americans.

Whew, Either McCain's Stamina rating is in the 30's (2k7) or it seems he's getting worse as we go along and the audience is getting lost. Holy shit he's struggling now.

nice closeup of the kid yawning in the audience.

as i've said in the past flasch - according to Romney, McCain simply is NOT capable of delivering a prepared speech. I have no doubt his handlers and writers tried their asses off (they don't want to fail after all), but there's only so much they can do.

This is just terrible. It's past McCain's bedtime. He doesn't even look interested.

Who the fuck thought it was a good idea for the McCain campaign to start talking about change? That's an incredibly stupid thing to start focusing his campaign on.

The formula for that will actually be simple: just keep reminding voters who McCain is running against. That ought to be just enough to do it. Hardly anybody voting for McCain is particularly happy about it, but if he doesn't screw up majorly being "not Obama" should pull him through.

Wow... I'm not liking his educational philosophies.

I guess he doesn't realize that there is already a teacher shortage and that there are not a whole lot of charter school spots available in all areas.

I feel like I've heard about this policy plan of his 8 years ago...

EXACTLY!

Yeah, but how did that work for Kerry in 2004? Look, I have no doubt this election is about Obama, but it seems to me the McCain has every incentive to try and change it to at least try and sell his own story - push his way into the limelight.

wrap it up with Al Qaeda.....recipe for success.

I think I just saw Rudy, on the sidelines, mouthing "Don't forget to mention 9/11!"

Did he just say Obama doesn't have scars?

Well to follow up on my opinion of this:

Im sure it's good enough for his base BUT I wonder if he didnt lose some of the middle with his performance tonight. It was truly a below average performance for any public speaking and Im not saying its fair to judge specifically on these nights but we've given credit where it was due so it's only fair to lay blame when it's called for too. It almost feels like a High School Gymnasium motivational speaker.

As a liberal I'll gladly admit my group has its own shortcomings but the inherent contradiction of most conservative arguments just drives me up the wall -- McCain railed against Obama for promoting bureacracy, then launched into how he wants the federal government hiring and firing teachers in my local school.

I started to make reference to that but I figured the difference would be obvious: McCain is running against Obama 08, not Bush 04.

Besides, what other choice for strategy does McCain really have? Even most of the people who are planning to vote for him aren't very happy about it. There's nothing he can do to significantly change that without alienating the voters he already has. If he doesn't run "against Obama", he's toast. If he does, I genuinely believe he's got a very good chance of winning in spite of himself. And if he doesn't then we'll get exactly what we deserve.

McCain is a horrific speaker, but he is probably the most moderate of the 4 republican/democrat president/VP candidates. His message and intentions didn't lose me (mr. Moderate voter). His choice of backing down to the religious right and choosing their candidate along with her beliefs is what lost me previously. McCain could have won this election I think if he (or someone) finally realized that there is a large number of centralist that want a candidate to speak to their interest for once. Not cater to the left or the right for a change. Out of the presidents in my life time, Clinton was the closest to achieving this goal.

I would've voted for McCain 2000 over Obama. Now, I vote third party because I can choose an idealist, pragmatic and charismatic liberal who wants to help me save myself over a war hero who seems to think that wrapping his own ambition in the cloak of the American flag is worthy enough of my vote.

To be fair, when the other 3 are Obama, Biden and Palin, it's not exactly difficult to be the most moderate of the group.

Yeah, but McCain probably wouldn't have been able to get the nomination and I think he realized that. Clinton did run a centrist campaign, but he had superior campaign skills and a much weaker field to run against. That Dem 92 field was horrific. It basically came down to him, Tsongas, and Jerry Brown.

McCain's telling us what to do to help our country, "...feed a homeless person, teach an [illiterate] to read,..." I gotta ask if that is as a community organizer?

So in other words it was about the norm for McCain (I truly can't think of five people in my lifetime I thought were actually worse speakers if you actually listened to them, something I discovered long before this campaign started)

This final pump-up part of the speech is laughable given how poorly he is selling it.

Heh, nice.

I felt bad for the guy- it was painful to watch. McCain 2000 would have been fired up but he's just tired now.

SI

That was brutal.

The crowd is cheering that it's finally over. McCain inspired no one tonight.

McCain is just too damn old. I think he was going the wrong way on the stage and Palin had to pull him in the correct direction. He was the absolute worst speaker at his own convention.

Heart's Barracuda is truly a nice touch, I love Heart.

Pappy O"Daniel: "We need a shot in the arm. You hear me boys? In the goddamn arm! Election held tomorrw, that son of bitch Stokes would win it in a walk!"

Junior O'Daniel: "Well' he's the reform candidate, Daddy."

Pappy O"Daniel: "Yeah."

Junior O'Daniel: "A lot of people like that reform. Maybe we should get us some."

Pappy O"Daniel: "I'll reform you, you soft-headed son of a bitch. How we gonna run reform when we're the damn incumbent?

Take this FWIW ... my wife, very fiscal conservative, more socially moderate than any of you would ever believe possible just told me that I really missed it, that McCain just gave the speech of his life. As you might expect, my reaction included the phrase "that ain't saying much".

Fair notice, he had her vote regardless of what he said/did tonight, but she certainly seems more satisfied with that eventual vote than she was before the convention.

But Clinton didn't run as a moderate in 1992, that was a reaction to the asswhipping the Dems got in 1994. Clinton ran saying he'd raise taxes, balance the gap between rich and poor and add significant government control to healthcare. Sure he said he was a New Democrat and had the DLC, but his policies were fairly liberal.

After Obama got slammed by some here for not giving any details on how he planned to do the stuff he mentioned in his speech, I was sure glad that McCain gave details.

Oh, wait, he didn't either? Damn.

McCain was never considered a great speaker, but at least he articulated policy positions and economic plans.

Though it was funny when he was telling the crowd that the Republicans failed the people, the place got reeeeeeal quiet.

Heh.

you guys need to talk and get on the same page.

Its amazing how different points of view, see the same event. Reading these comments, I feel like I'm reading "Vantage Point" script on FOFC.

I'm disappointed in you. Rashomon would have been a much more elitist reference.

That might be so. I was 17 in the 1992 election and didn't vote until the 96 election when I did vote for Clinton (my first election voting).

John McCain gave the detail that mattered, POW.

Palin and Guiliani fucked him with those great speeches yesterday.

And then we had those idiots in the crowd. Protesting is cool, but that was completely uncalled for.

Reverse the GOP ticket...now! :p

OT...we need a surge in Chicago

Nearly 125 Shot Dead In Chicago Over Summer - Total Is About Double The Death Toll In Iraq

McCain won't drop Palin, but can Palin drop McCain?

Ill take that as an SFL in agreement that McCain's speech wasn't very good...at least in comparison to Palin's.

Jeffrey Toobin on CNN says it was the worst speech by a nominee since Carter which I didnt hear obviously.

I'm so glad, I went to college.

Some Bush speech writer ripped it completely apart on MSNBC.

SI

Well, it was definitely dull. At least it wasn't a bad culture war-ish speech

It wasn't that bad, guys. He's certainly no Henry Vth but there's an element of sincerity there entirely missing from Palin's speech that was little more than rabble rousing once she got beyond her bio. As for Giuliani :rolleyes:

I had to smile at one point when he delivered a punch line and the floor cheered loudly. The smile of an embarrassed little boy thinking "I did it, I did it!" passed over his face. I think he's well aware of his total lack of eloquence :)

Whether he's recovered the support from the centre that Palin antagonised remains to be seen. It remains an interesting campaign.

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

:lol:

What are you on, and where can we go to get it declared a controlled substance?

I sorta hope McCain does get in now. I'd rather hear more about the wacky adventures of Palin over the next 4 years than the moaning about Obama and his wife!

But, the ability to inspire is a part of leadership. I have seen nothing in John McCain now that suggests he has any greater leadership ability than Barack Obama. McCain has sold his soul to get the nomination. He has renounced his previous positions to adopt the positions of the right wing of the Republican Party. He has hired former Bush people to run is campaign and his campaign is using the same disgusting tactics that he cried out against in 2000. He can claim as much as he wants that he is still the maverick from eight years ago, but he's not. He now believes in drilling, he now believes that abortion should be banned, he accuses his opponents of being traitors if they disagree with him, and his Vice-Presidential pick was someone who was a repeat offender on his pork barrel spending list (and apparently not vetted). What little detail in terms of policy in his speech was a regurgitation of Republican tactics. And his strategy of saying elect a Republican to fix problems that Republicans caused makes no sense.
Just because you were a prisoner of war does not mean he should be president. It doesn't make him a leader. Just because you're willing to restore brinkmanship as an American foreign policy does not make a person a leader. I question his judgment, his temperment, and, now, his integrity. His investigation into Abramoff was incomplete (he didn't go after everybody and they later turned around to help him) and his past is not really one of a reformer.

And, I felt bad for him tonite. His speech was bad. I mean painfully bad. You had the green screen, you had the crowd chanting USA when he talked about a guy who didn't have a job, he talked about standing on your side (my g/f mentioned that her physical therapist does it and maybe that's his health care plan), he said something about Palin working with her hands and her nose. He looked old and uncomfortable at times. Even Cindy McCain looked cross at times. And the kid yawning was priceless.

It doesn't always have to be. I'd take one Eisenhower over a million John Kennedys.

Code Pinko. I thought McCain handled it with good humor.

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

What exactly has McCain ever led? He has been part of the Washington establishment for a quarter century? That is not leadership. That is being part of the problem.

I served in the military, and it's great that he likes to continually remind us that he was a POW, but after hearing it for the millionth time, it really loses it's effectiveness. I would hope that it takes more than just being a former POW to make a good president. Remove McCain's military past and he is no different than the other two bit politicians in Washington.

McCain made his bed with the abomination that is the Bush Presidency, and it will cost him his final shot at the White House.

-Cork

Talking point, much?

SI

Most of those present votes were done to provide leadership for the Democratic caucus in the Illinois State legislature.

As for McCain, he has missed ever major vote in the United States Senate since he began running for the White House, including FISA, funding the troops, the health care bill that even Teddy Kennedy came back to vote on. Voting record is not something McCain can really push.

To be fair, he did plan some really good community cookouts.

Not to nit-pick, but Obama has changed his positions as well. Politics is about doing what gets you elected. Real leadership requires more then charisma. It requires vision (actual ideas, strategies, and goals) and substance. It requires a leader to think quickly and take swift action. It requires one to stand his ground and stand behind what he believes in, not catering to what is popular. To me, neither candidate has a lot of these qualities. It sucks that we are down to the two candidates we have. Of course, it's typical politics, no matter how they dress themselves.

I just wish the Libertarian party was a lot stronger.

We can have all this fun trading of talking points (I could go to DailyKos and pick up a few), but the point that was being made is that McCain gave a terrible speech. That seems to really bother the same conservatives that were masturbating over Palin's speech and has them rather defensive.


Point: This was not a good night for McCain.

No, I don't disagree with you - if you noted, I agreed that this is a referendum on Obama. I guess I think of Americans as fundamentally optimistic - they'd rather vote for someone (make that effort) as opposed to voting against someone.

FWIW, four of the five analysts on CNN gave him high marks for tonight, so I wouldn't really say that it's a fact that he gave a terrible speech.

I wouldn't say it is a fact, because it's not something that can really be a fact. However, I think the reactions of the conservatives in this thread are pretty telling. Not one of them defended McCain by saying he gave a good speech. Instead, they went into attack mode.

McCain didn't need to give a good speech. Palin got the base fired up.

McCain just needs to not blow it during the debates and he still has a chance. A small, shrinking chance.

Attack mode?

When someone says that great speaking = great leadership to try to put down McCain, I only think its fair to go after the great speaking opponent, don't you? And let us not get into the attacks of the Obamaniacs ever since McCain won the primaries.

It surprised me how poorly written the speech was. I didn't expect him to deliver it well, but he didn't have much to wok with. The ending wasn't bad, but there wasn't much flow to the speech.

Pretty funny to hear some of the comments about McCain's speech being boring or lacking excitement. Anyone who follows politics or has read even portions of this thread knows that McCain's weakest point in the campaign would likely be last night at his acceptance speech. I think the first 60-70% of the speech was mostly just a listing of policies that he would implement without any real barn-burning lines. It was relatively boring, but did lay out some of his ideas going forward. I thought the last 15-20 minutes were much better. That was when he started talking about his military experiences, the current military, and how he would deal with foreign aggression (countries or terrorists). It appeared that he was much more interested in telling those stories and making those points. Much better than the earlier part of the speech.

Overall, it was nothing particularly special and was likely the weakest of the 4 Prez/VP speeches from a presentation standpoint. With that said, most McCain supporters (and voters in general for that matter) knew that in advance and they also know that he's much better in less formal settings. He also did very well in presenting his leadership credentials. The CBSNews poll from late last night after McCain's speech shows a dead heat in overall national polls. If those early poll results are accurate and he pulled even after what most voters would agree was his weakest portion of the campaign, that bodes well for the Republican ticket.

Fail.

Those poll numbers were released before the speech. Even if they had been released after the speech there's no way a poll can be conducted in an hour or two.

So, now you'll say that's even better news for the Republicans. Maybe, but let's look at the internals of the CBS poll. Between the last poll where Obama was +8 and this poll where they're tied the sample changed dramatically. This second poll had nearly six percent more Republicans than the previous poll. Every polling outfit struggles with putting together a realistic model of voters, so this isn't bias, the second sample may turn out to closer model voters for all we know. However, when the sample changes this much from one poll to the next it's impossible to validate a large change in the outcome.

McCain will likely get some bounce starting with today's numbers, but you need to look more closely at polls, especially the ones that tell you what you want to hear.

Hence the reason I specifically noted 'if those early polls are accurate'?

Interesting story being floated over at the Drudge Report. Oprah is balking at having Sarah Palin on her show, despite overwhelming audience requests to have her on the show. Oprah and the show's executive producer are big Obama backers, both from a voting and financial standpoint............

FWIW...e-mail from a friend of mine in Arkansas who is a self-described libertarian. He unsuccessfully ran for Congress as an independent.

*e-mail*
This is not an endorsement. Just FYI.
I found it interesting.
Dale


----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Spalten



Subject: Who is Sarah Palin by an Alaskan Brush Pilot and Guide



One of our good friends, Eddie Spalten from San Antonio , fishes at the Wildman Lodge on the Alaskan Peninsula . The lodge is owned by Butch and Kathy Wildman. The Wildmans spend their winters in Texas and their summers in Alaska . Kathy’s father and former husband served in the Alaskan legislature for around 30 years so Butch and Kathy know Alaska politics.

Eddie emailed Butch and asks Butch what the Wildmans think of Gov. Sarah Palin. Butch’s unedited email is attached below. Please read it and forward it to your friends. This is what the citizens of Alaska think of Sarah Palin!

Thanks, Gene Powell
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wildman Lake & Cinder River Lodges [mailto:[email protected] ]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Who is Sarah

Hi Eddie:

Fishing is good here at Wildman and I rarely have time for politics, but many of our friends are asking us “Who is Sarah Palin?” Of course, as Alaskans, Kathy and I are extremely proud of her. We just want to let you know that Sarah “Barracuda” Palin is a straight shooting, hard charging, get it done gal. She knows when to listen, how to analyze the facts and how to make a decision, then implement the plan. She doesn’t do a poll before jumping in with both feet like too many of the Washington types. She has little legislative experience because she has always held the EXECUTIVE position; in private life, as mayor of Anchorage ’s largest bedroom community or more recently as Governor of our State. She is a smart, attractive home grown Alaska girl with excellent moral and family values. She can see what needs to be done and does not hesitate to get it done.

One of our State’s major problems is that its Capital is in Juneau, 500 miles from the nearest road and 800 air miles from the population base which is Anchorage, Wasilla and Fairbanks. Our legislature and most of the State government is in Juneau and they ALL behave like a bunch of freshmen in a college town. It has been this way since Statehood in 1959. When Sarah moved to Juneau , so did accountability and responsibility When the oil revenue started flown and a barrel of North Slope Crude hit $23.00, these people began spending money like drunken sailors. You can only imagine what was happenings when oil hit $100.00 a barrel, about the time Sarah took command. My wife Kathy has first-hand experience with this fiasco, as her father and also her ex-husband were Alaska Legislators who served in Juneau as Senators, Senate President, or members of the State House for a combined period spanning nearly three decades.

About the time Sarah took the HELM as Governor of Alaska, about half of the State legislature was in the pocket of big oil companies or contractors doing big projects for Native Corporations around Alaska, all funded by State oil revenue. Alaska government was nothing but a good old boys club riding the perpetual wave of prosperity. This filtered down from the legislature, through the Department of Natural Resources, Department of Labor and even spilled in to the Public Safety who are supposed to “preserve and protect”.

When Sarah walked into the Governor’s Mansion, she promptly dismissed the State Trooper detachment assigned to Governor and had her and her husband’s gun case brought in from Wasilla. Then, she got rid of the former Governor’s STATE Jet and told legislators that there were no more free rides, they would have to fly Alaska Airlines, just like her and her family if they wanted to travel. Next came the nut cutting (the Barracuda part) the heads that rolled were too numerous to name, but when Sarah finished cleaning house, a number of our legislators ended up in jail for on corruption charges, or tendered their resignations along with numerous department heads and those who have been riding the gravy train for way too long, AND THEN SHE HAD LUNCH. By the end of the day, Sarah Palin had saved the people of Alaska millions and has not yet slowed down.

She has truly brought CHANGE to Juneau . I personally know several persons in the private sector in Alaska , that hold her in high esteem. She surrounds herself with smart people, many from my hometown of Anchorage , she listens to thembut makes her own decisions. Sarah Palin is a no B.S. politician. It is refreshing that there is such a thing anymore. You want to talk about CHANGE? You should see a before and after picture of the State government in Alaska . That’s CHANGE! Sarah will bring a number of things to the election. I am sure she will appeal many voters who my otherwise could have gone the other direction on election day. The conservative block will not be for Barack. We have their vote. We need what Sarah will bring, first to the election and second, what she will bring to Washington D.C. McCain has been advised well, Let’s just hope the American people can get the straight scoop on her in the weeks ahead. This is just the opinion of one Alaska Bush Pilot and Guide, who pays attention to national politics, watches the news and is deathly afraid of the direction our nation is headed. I guarantee that if Sarah gets a chance to dig her spurs into the flanks of the liberal Washington types, they will know that she is in the saddle.

Butch King

Pilot/Guide

Butch & Kathy King

Proprietors

Wildman Lake Lodge

McCain's oratory has never done much for me. Not a knock on his leadership skills, its just that I don't find him very telegenic.

Of course, based on accounts I've read, I'm thinking Abe Lincoln might have had problems making a go of it in our TV age too.

calling wasilla "anchorage's largest bedroom community" is stretching it - for one it's 43 miles away from anchorage (hardly a bedroom community), and for 2, calling it large is laughable. It's like saying I'm the smartest person in my office without saying that I'm the only person in my office.

also just a quick google - according to wikipedia the city of wasilla has 7025 people versus like 6920 for the next largest city (which is equidistant from anchorage). That's an extra 105 people. I took the train to work today and there were probably 100 people in my train-car.

Look at how many people live in your town, or god-forbid, your city. 7025 people is NOTHING. I mean seriously, there were 10,500 athletes staying in the Olympic Village in Beijing! It's a joke!

Oprah isn't running a charity. She owns her show and can do what she wants and I presume she will. Sarah Barracuda isn't gonna be the death of the Oprah brand.

I have a real interesting email I will send along to you. It is from the assistant of a deceased leader of a tiny African nation, and she said she has large sums of money she needs someone to hold on to for her while she tries to locate the heir to the thrown.

Word is the heir is a brush pilot in Alaska somewhere.....

While that's certainly true, I would think that Oprah would want Palin on the show simply because she has a compelling story and is new to the national political scene.

I think Oprah is only shortchanging her audience if she doesn't ask Palin on since, it seems, many in her audience would like to see Palin on the show.

I call bullshit. The only quote is attributed to "a source", and according to McCain's own staff Palin isn't going to be doing interviews or press conferences.

Thanks, but I've already gotten rich off that one! :p

Well, it is all about perspective. 7,000 is probably a lot of people for a town in Alaska.

And every city is different... metro Boston kind of ends past Marlborough, after which it seems like there is nothing out there. On the other hand, Metro NYC sprawls for miles and miles... some people even commute into the city from Western PA.

Plain and simple, McCain's speech was terrible. The worst part is he's now trying to piggy-back on Obama's message of "change."

It seems like McCain is trying to say, "Vote for me. I'm not really a Republican."

Nope, but if she manages to sincerely piss off even, say, 25% of the women in the country then she's a different property to her affiliates.

Oprah is a big deal because she posts big numbers which are quite profitable to the stations, something that bites into that puts her in a different position in the future (although as much money as she's made maybe she doesn't care about that).

It's a fair point in terms of her experience but the Democrats also have to remember that small towns ARE America, Republicans dominate there, and its why they win national elections.

2004 County-By-County Map



Obviously, Democrats get a lot of votes out of those more densley populated blue areas, but I think maps like this help explain why Obama can't pull away with this election even though it FEELS like he's way more popular than McCain. The media portrays the views of those cities.

I have to ask this because, well I just need to know for sure....

Do you really believe that email is real?

What does this map show? Presidential selections by county? There's no legend. Photoshop is a great tool, Molson.

Oprah is damn near more well known than the president. Having or not having Palin on there will not matter with next year's TV ratings, no matter who is elected.

Once again, more slowly this time.

I'm not talking about whether Palin is on the show. I'm talking about whether avoiding Palin could piss off enough current viewers to affect her ratings. Two completely different things.

Yup, they got my money in that 10 million.

A great tool I'm not competent to use.

Yes, 2004 Presidential election results by county.

Hillary must be having a cow right about now.

Palin Power: Fresh Face Now More Popular Than Obama, McCain

And I'm saying "avoiding Palin" has no long term effects on Oprah. Hell, it has no short term effects on Oprah. Avoiding Palin is not going to effect Oprah's viewership.

Don't ask, don't tell....

To be fair, it wasn't like people just jumped up and donated money after seeing Palin speak. The Obama campaign sent out a letter requesting donations to their supporters. That provoked the outpouring of donations, not the Palin speech though they'd certainly like people to think that was the reason.

They send out emails everyday asking for donations.