|
I think there has been more posts on Maximum Football than there has been on Front Office Football in this forum.
|
Since I don't post much in here I know you all don't know who I am or know much about me. As a matter of fact, I had to reregister to post on here it has been so long since I actually posted. I've been an FOF/TCY gamer since the original FOF came out the same year I kept pounding my head against the wal with FB'99. I say all of this to say I should have listen to you all in regards to this MAXFootball game. I made the mistake last week of purchasing this game and have had nothing but trouble ever since I did. Here's my latest posts on the "support" boards:
I guess I find it interesting that for a 3D "strategy" football game that a known issue of stat errors doesn't have an ETA. I also find it strange that a game that boasts of such great flexibility has so many nagging restrictions in the play editor. The bi-rational player issue is actually kind of funny when watching a game, but it gets annoying when you can't tell which guy is which when the play starts. I actually thought the game would be more stable than it is when I bought it, but I was proven wrong. I am still an avid FBpro player and was hoping this game would fill a void for me. However, it has done nothing but make me appreciate how great the FBPRO series really was almost a decade ago. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MitchG,
Ouch! That's a tough way to lose some money. What's sad is that many of the problems could be seen in released screnshots and videos. Yet I must admit that when he went to Matrix, I thought many of these things were going to be ironed out. What amazes me even more is that the other people that reports errors every other day continue to believe that the game is still good. I don't know if its because they are hardcore fanboys or if it is because they are trying to justify why they spent so much on this game. If I were you, I would seriously ask for a refund. It is seriously lacking in features for a standard football game. |
MitchG, Go ahead, ask for a refund. I would be curious to see what the response from Matrix to a paying customer asking for a refund would be. Continue escalating it past Erik and call them if you have to...raise hell and let them know you feel that you as a paying customer were deceived as to the feature-set of the game and are not pleased with the game. it would be interesting to see their response. *of course I mean that you should do this first and foremost to recoup your money, not as a means of bitching at Matrix for problems with the game/to express displeasure with it. but it would be interesting to see what their response would be*
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Under the premise the software didn't do what was advertised, anyone ever tried to do a charge back on their credit card for software purchases? Just curious if that would fly... |
just wanted to get the last post in.
|
Quote:
ok |
Welcome to the new threadkiller thread.
|
Quote:
And the next transformation begins... |
You guys turn this into a threadkiller and I imagine that SkyDog won't be so quick to undelete this thing once Bubba deletes it. Let's all work to avoid threadkiller, OK.
Of course, if you have something to say about football games or limericks or the meaning of the word hubris, then feel free to post. But no threadkiller posts. Please? Pretty Please? (Except I would like it if one person posted after me just so that no one thinks that I am trying to do some meta-threadkiller here). |
Quote:
No problemo. :) |
So, here's what the developer see as the stuff he needs to work on:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1086477 Quote:
I see a lot of "I'll look into" and "I haven't been able to reproduce that error" comments in there. Also, note how he referrs to "Canadian rules" and "American style of play". Then, he is complaining about people customizing the game, and therefore making it very difficult to troubleshoot problems. Wasn't that one of the main features of the game, for 3rd party utilities to be able to customize the gameplay? |
So does this mean the patch has gone gold?
|
Quote:
That's great for a game that's reportedly designed to be modified... |
Quote:
He didn't think anyone would actually try to customize the game... |
Quote:
That's customizability to you sir. :D |
Quote:
fixed that for ya FM |
Quote:
I am not sure it was a patch. It fixed some errors and introduced new ones. So what do you call it? A regressive patch? An enhancement bug? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Glad this is the FOFC :D |
Dola this sentence:
Consider this a warning to one and all.......insults, personal shots, etc; are against the Matrix Forum Policy and repeated violations will just get you an exit from this site. Would have had my 3rd grade English teacher, Sister Mary Mark, absolutely livid. Just try and diagram that thing. |
Even more proof that Jason 'Great White' exists. Check out page 59 of this pdf.
http://www.tech-notes.tv/2004/2004_comments.pdf There's mention of FIU and his radio broadcast. This was made in 2004. I have to hear his radio show. I am sure it is pure unintentional comedy. |
Quote:
Tell us how you really feel.:D |
Quote:
Always a sign of rock solid design, and superior programming.....when changing variables can crash the application :eek: To be fair, I was suprised that they got a patch out this quickly, and Winter does appear to be commited to improving the game. That's much more than I imagined given the time constraints he has to fixing it. Matrix publishes a fair few part-time games which have taken far longer to get patches out. However, patch .90w28297328232/11/11/12234__A or whichever version is out today, seems to be a continuation of the development "process" where several builds a day are sent out fixing something, breaking something else and creating future unforseen issues, all in an environment where every tester is seeing something different depending on their framerate. Matrix do appear to be boldly forging ahead with a new development technique, where consistency and reproduction are for wimps, maybe they'll eventually write a book. I am beginning to resent it all though, as COTA is the next game on deck, and I've been waiting for it for 2 years. If Erik et al continue to be consumed with MF, then it may never see the light of day. |
Quote:
Sir, I must say, your detective skills are top notch. But his letter in the pdf seems strangely... uhh... coherent? |
I can't believe anyone would spend $40 on this game when you're gonna have to spend an extra $40 on alcohol to forget that you bought this game.
|
Quote:
Uhh... it's a good excuse to buy and consume $40 worth of alcohol? |
Quote:
Fuck, save the game and buy some decent alcohol since you'd have $80. Guaranteed to have a better time, too. |
Quote:
$80 is what, 120 cases of 22oz Thunderbirds? |
The UIC just keeps on coming with this product:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1088314 I'd do the cool cut and paste of the thread like others here have done, but I haven't figured it out yet. The gist of it is that someone is reporting that sometimes on kicks, if the ball isn't caught, the ball is never downed. The two teams kind of run in place, and the only way to resolve it is to shutdown the game. A responder wrote that this has already been reported, and he had seen the same thing. Daivid then writes that he tried 25 consecutive kicks, and it worked perfectly each time. He then states that If he is going to address the issue, then he'll just have to start making blind changes to the code, which he warns may cause unexpected impacts to other parts of the game. That seems to be a recurring theme in these bug tracking sessions. He says he is unable to replicate many of these errors, and he warns that code changes to fix one thing can cause unintended impacts in other spots. |
Quote:
my thoughts exactly |
Quote:
Nevemind, just went off for about 2 pages on how this guy is an absolute joke of a software developer with the comments he has thus made. But it is just not worth it.... |
I a demo of MAXIMUM FOOTBALL now available ?
|
Quote:
No I believe they are still trying to sucker people into buying it sight unseen. |
Quote:
The best part is Winter wants to go over the dudes house to inspect the error. Says he might have to do an "on site". |
You don't let people try out the snake oil first, gang.
|
Quote:
And he is 100% accurate about unintended impacts. If he can't replicate, it will be very difficult for him to fix. That doesn't mean he can't examine the code to see what would cause this, but he is correct that he'd just be guessing if it were fixed or not. |
Quote:
I understand the point about unintendend impacts. It just points out to me the lack of any kind of regression testing or QA processes. I know for our software, after a developer makes a change, a QA guy will run the new code through a set of tests with a known outcome, to reduce the chance of unintended impacts being introduced. This is long before the software ever hits a customer's hands. And I can understand the difficulty if you aren't able to reproduce an error. I can see it happening, but from the looks of it over at the support forum, a full 1/3 of the errors he can't seem to be able to reproduce. |
Quote:
Yeah, I think what I'm more baffled by is the lack of some sort of de-bugging system being developed (set up certain down, yardage, score, time, etc situations - that kind of thing) than his comment about unintended consequences.. I mean hell, even when he can replicate and find the exact problem there's a certain chance (as with any code) of unintended consequences. |
What would fix the problems is for Matrix to bring in new testers, more of an open beta.. Take apps for various PC setups, and then get about 10 more people in there to test the builds, as the team they have now seems to be a bit small...
Open beta might kill sales for while, but it would definitely shorten the time of getting a playable product.. on the shelves and d/l areas.. I can't believe that they shipped the game with a list of bugs and problems for a gold product. That still stuns me. Did anyone take the response from Erik Rutins about the guy wanting a refund as ignoring the request for the refund because he is too busy trying to fix the game? Is it just me or??? |
Quote:
The difference is that in a real-time simulation application like this, your results are fundamentally non-deterministic. Even if you save off random number seeds, fix frame times, etc, that still just tests a small set of your runtime conditions. You WANT the game to be different every time it's run, which means you simply can't test even a reasonable fraction of your actual runtime conditions. So no matter how much testing you do, bugs will still slip through. Even the 1-million-and-first customer will run into some condition that the first million never did. And tweaking one thing here can have ripple effects way over there. This is VERY different from the business programming I used to do (or the utility programming I do on the side). That said, he still needs to examine his code to determine what conditions would prevent ANYONE from picking up a ball lying on the ground. |
oooooh....he tested it a WHOLE 25 times.Big f'n deal......Test it some more until you CAN recreate the damn error...sorry if YOUR consumers are taking up too much of your precious time with stoopid little bugs like NO TEAM DOWNS THE DAMN BALL ON A KICK OFF!
On the other hand...this is kinda of a brilliant stratagy. Ford:Our tires blow up for no reason? Consumer:Yes...and 12 people have died so far. Ford:Well....we tested it 25 times and could'nt recreate the blow up.So,unless you want us to just change our tires for no reason and perhaps make them worse.......... BRILLIANT! |
Quote:
woah bbor, calm down or else he'll come do an on-site at your place... :D FM |
Quote:
Don't let him in! |
Quote:
Even though Daivid is in BC and bbor is in Toronto, I think Yonge Street connects them... :D |
Quote:
LOL:D I am very ashamed to say this guy is Canadian.....He is very UN-Canadian like in his attitude.Most Canadians would put their nose to the grindstone and get this thing hammered out.Whearas Daivd just wants to blame everyone else for his shit product. Perhaps his real job is as a mamber of parliment. |
Quote:
or blame americans for not playing football the right way (in his mind ;)) FM |
Quote:
Is there a right way in his mind? Or should i say is he in his right mind?:D |
Quote:
from what I get about the man, the right way is the canadian way... or the highway :D FM |
Wait a second...
Daivd is lazy, doesn't think other countries know what they are doing, and blames everyone else for his problems? Holy crap, he's an American! ;) |
Quote:
:D |
Quote:
I get what you are saying, but I think what cartman is trying to imply is that he seems to be using it as an excuse to not fix the problem. Regardless of what may occur while he fixes it, he still has to fix it. Otherwise just let those people get a refund that continue to experience this problem on their systems. |
I think the situation with the kick off bug highlights what spcd was saying earlier about the difficulty of fixing a game where the frame rate affects the play outcomes.
Until you fix that problem and get play results stable across all frame rates, it must be incredibly difficult to debug the gameplay. The kick off bug could be affecting only players within a small range of frame rates. Fix their problem and you introduce another bug for players in a different set of frame rates. And on and on it goes. It's like trying to debug an entire set of interdependent games. Seems to me the first thing you do is fix the frame rate problem, but then again, I may just be misunderstanding the situation. |
i still fail to understand how a game where the frame rate affects gameplay that drastically can have anything remotely approaching...i don't even know what the word is...appeal...statistics that are relevant to anybody not playing at that particular framerate?
wonky-ass grade-school design |
Well it looks like they will not be offering refunds to anyone. Sorry EagleFan, but he says you need to trade it with someone who wants the game:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1088546 Oh and the good news is that if anyone was waiting for the physical copy, it is now available for the fair price of $49.99. So let's see, Oblivion comes out on Monday at the same price. This is going to be a freakin' tough decision. |
Is elmerlee one of us? His subtle, backhanded compliments are brilliant.
|
Oddly enough, oblivion will be where the world is before I consider spending a red cent on this game.
|
Quote:
No problemo. I'm just through purchasing Matrix games unless they have glowing reviews from many many people I trust. Edit: I just realized you were addressing the other EF, but my comment stands ;) |
Dola -
I tried to post a message over there commenting on the refund policy, and I can't reply to a thread or start a thread over there. Are other people having problems posting on Matrix's board right now, or have they banned me in some way for my few comments? |
donkeydong12 reports no problems posting
|
Quote:
For some reason this made me laugh more than just about anything else in this thread. I guess it was the image of EF walking the streets trying to find someone foolish enough to want the game. :D |
I was just able to do a fast reply, but my post reply and new thread buttons aren't working. I fast replied to a non-related thread since that was my only chance for the Matrix people to see my post.
|
Quote:
maybe they can do an on site at your friends house |
What is going on over at Matrix, playing hard ball like this?
They must know they screwed everyone who bought the game. The bad PR could hurt them for years. |
Quote:
What do you mean? People are loving the ability to create classic rosters and uniforms, and sometimes be able to create plays for the POS (or is it "in the PDS"). It has to be true, I read it over there. Some people are actually happy with their purchase. Now if you want to actually play a game where you field kicks, and have penalties marked off correctly, well you'll just have to wait for Vic and Eric to evolve from board moderators to developers. It's clear that this game is based on evolution, because there is not a shred of intelligent design to be found. |
Quote:
it's on now, beotch ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Winter Matrix Elite Guard Posts: 744 Joined: 11/23/2004 From: Vancouver, BC Status: online quote: this game clearly does not deliver on previously promised features I've heard this twice now. Advertised features (and feature sets) not in the game. What features were not delievered? Yes, there are bugs with the existing feature set that I'm addressing, but as far as I know, the featureset, as advertised, is there. |
Quote:
I disagree I think god told Daivd which football rules to include. It is all based on faith, do not attempt to use reason. |
Quote:
I tried to channel Knute Rockne and Pop Warner using my Ouija Board to get a ruling on this, and here was their response: A-W-9-moon-Yes-N-2-Good Bye |
Quote:
Are you sure that was Knute and Pop? That sounds like something Ronald Reagan would say. |
Quote:
Must have got the Gipper, close. |
Quote:
ah that makes sense |
eagle is 2-2 in getting threads locked over there.
|
Quote:
The first feature not delivered would be that it was advertised as a football simulation. From my understanding it's impossible to accurately simulate ANY known league. |
Come on, a refund?
MF may be crap, but it's not crap because it's spectacularly buggy, just spectacularly crap, right up there with this: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/b...ml?sid=6086528 Anyone who thought the arcade/customizability/league/career/stats features of the game could possibly be any good is either one of the three delusional fan boys on the MF board, or the type of person who picks up Battlecruiser 3000 and thinks "hmmm this looks great!" One of these days, a publisher is going to get a real kick up the arse when it's hit with a serious class action law suit, not by the blowhards that go into fora on release day and claim they're going to do it, but when a smart lawyer realizes that a rich holding company would make a nice target for a shakedown, and that day isn't far off. But, IMHO, Matrix doesn't deserve to be slammed for not giving refunds, no one gives them. Usually any mention of such talk would be slapped down by fanboys, but alas, the MF ones are too busy trying to figure out how to cover the tight end, or why some field goals are worth 4 points, and Bubba Wheels dropped it like it was his two-headed baby. So there's none of the usual "you can't make comparisons to a car" , "wait until the next patch" or "it runs perfectly on my PC, you need to defragment your hard drive" circular arguements to defend the game, but surely that doesn't make it more a candidate for refund than most games within 2 weeks of release. |
Quote:
Again, Bee, you just have to customize the rules of your league to how the game plays on your system. |
Quote:
I heard if you can get your framerate to be exactly 30.1285, you get a pretty good recreation of Danny White as a punter for the Memphis Southmen of the WFL. |
Really have to take everything here with as much a grain of salt as those things said over on the MF board. So many here are as pre-disposed to hate the game as they hate its creator that if and when the game is finally patched to be half-way decent it won't matter.
BTW, I haven't 'dropped' it yet, just waiting to see if it will become 'half-way decent.' Big difference. |
I give them credit for supporting the game through these first couple of weeks after release, but I wonder what happens when sales dry up, most customers have moved on to other games, and there is still a lot of work to do to finish the game.
That will be the real test of support for the game, both for Matrix and the developer. |
Quote:
Actually, the other EF got the other thread locked. ;) We are each 1 for 1. |
Quote:
I couldn't figure out where this general forum was they kept talking about. |
It is NOT true that no other developers give refunds. I've gotten refunds on two different text sims that I've purchased in the last 2 years. I've also gotten a refund on a non-text sim from an independant developer.
|
Dola (or maybe not) -
I have continued to purchase games from the companies that gave a refund on horribly buggy products because of their customer support. If they took Matrix's (and most bigger developer's policy) of not giving refunds, I would have stopped buying from those companies as well. |
The no refunds policy would have better legs to stand on if they had a demo out where people could test the game first before buying it.
The policy is wrong since there is no demo.. and people should continue to stay away until there is a demo for people to see for themselves, instead of punishing the folks that have bought the game believing it would be as promised or advertised. |
Also, people, don't forget that tonight is Daivd's developer chat at the Matrix website.
|
Quote:
What are the odds that it starts on time? |
Quote:
My guess is that it turns into a computer game version of one of Bush's "Town Hall" meetings. Question one: "Mr. Winters, I just want to congratulate you on this wonderful game you've given us" DW: "Why thank you, non-FOFC troll. What is the question you have for me?" Q1: "How can I help you make this perfect game even better?" |
Quote:
Yeah, what gets me about this whole situation is that you are purchasing this game blindly. There are currently no reviews for the game and no demo. You would think with the reputation of Matrix that it would be a decent game. What bothers me even more is that they thought this game was worth $40 at the point where it had "gone gold". I have a hard time believing that Erik didn't see any of the issues that everyone is seeing now. In fact, they have even said they knew of a number of bugs, that the customers had come across, themselves. I'm sorry, but that just sounds shady. The only way I will purchase anything from Matrix is if I know the developer has a good track record. Shaun Sullivan seems to be the only person that I know of as a developer and I will trust anything he puts out there. I don't think you can go by any reputation that Matrix had built for themselves over the years. And you know what, it actually not David's fault, because Matrix doesn't want to the do the right thing in this case. They just want to prove to themselves that they didn't make a mistake. |
I hope he has a lot of Irish customers.
Could be fun. |
Quote:
Three indies, probably a fraction the size of Matrix, don't make a trend, they are notable exceptions. I've returned a game to Best Buy, that doesn't mean that their non-refund policy is a myth, just that there are exceptions. Quote:
Then you too are most probably an exception. Either that, or Matrix, along with almost every publisher, are running a business model which is losing them money. I have to ask, what did you expect when you bought the game? It's a version 1.0 from a single developer which overran by several years it's target release, and making a demo was deemed either impossible (by the developer and his hillarious description that the game is "too open source") or too time consuming (the publisher.) There's enough warning signs alone, even without being aware of this thread, and others, which were another sign that this game was a grave risk to buy. In future, if a game developers doesn't understand what open source means, then treat it as a warning a siren to hold off purchasing until it's been reviewed ;) I think you should be able to get your money back, for this game and for all software, but it's not going to happen while so many people are in a rush to give their money away for the promise of games. The best chance you have is to make some form of stink which Matrix deal with by giving a refund. |
Quote:
Hmmmm...if I were EagleFan, I would delete it from my hard drive and send the game to be reviewed at Gamespot. Then trade back for the game and send it to another place to be reviewed. |
Just wanted to add and to clarify:
I was one of the retards that purchased the game after listening on how great the game would be. I'm not going into details but this is perhaps the worst simulation of football I've ever played. I was very upset that I paid 40 bucks for it. I then began researching the Matrix website for a refund policy and found a statement claiming a 14 day refund policy. After a little aruging with the customer service, I did receive a full refund. Just wanted people to know it is possible. |
A Maximum Football success story! See folks, your dreams can come true, too.
|
Quote:
After reading this, I had to check it out for myself and damn....you are right. Here is the link to the return policy. Why would they lie about something like this? https://www.digitalriver.com/dr/cs/e...=10342&pn=1#q1 |
Quote:
No takers yet. Came close with one drunk bum on the street but he thought I said Maxim Football and thought it was a football game using the Maxim cover babes. Once he heard Maximum Football he just pointed at me and laughed (I don't get it ;) ). |
Wow. They must be checking out the site, because they changed that link quick. It now shows that all "sales are final".
|
and it didn't used to? you didn't take a screenshot? quick...someone grab the google cached version of that page!
|
Quote:
Very disappointing. |
wow. way to piss me off Matrix by pansying out and changing your return policy in response to a scandal involving a poor game released by you.
wow. just wow. |
you have a screenie Antmeister. I think you should post it over there. Blast the motherfuckers. Not that they don't have a right to change their return policy whenever they want, but that is REALLY weak IMO. And an "all sales are final" policy is a surefire way to lose me as a customer.
|
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:09 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
KO Returns included in Rushing Yards??? - 3/12/2006 3:01:18 AM 
