I think Graham realizes he fucked up pretty badly trying to interfere in Georgia. He's now saying Biden should start receiving Intel briefings.

This is one of those good news, bad news things. Fox News getting what they deserve, but people are just going to even more unhinged, extreme "news" outlets, so we're just trading one problem for a potentially worse one.

BREAKING: Fox Ratings out, and it's bad. Real bad.

Cavuto: ��Down 52%
Ingraham: �� Down 45%
Fox & Friends: �� Down 45%
Hannity: �� Down 39%
Carlson: �� Down 33%

— Major Patriot (@MajorPatriot) November 18, 2020

EDIT: Reading some of the comments to this, I swear they were all a parody, but it's not. These people are nuts.

Their praise for Hannity and Carlson is downright scary, and disdain for Cavuto who is the only actual journalist other than Wallace is scary. They really are too stupid to realize Carlson couldn't care less about them and he just spoon feeds them shit so they line his pockets.

Serenity Now

I appreciate Bill not sticking to sports.

Sounds like that 'he'll never do that' scenario where he tries to run out the clock past the certification deadlines and has the legislature hijack democracy and elect their own electors is coming to fruition within the WH's halls. This is the grossest attack on our democracy yet. The drip drip drip over the last 4 years undermining our institutions and breaking down the fabric of our democracy has been explained away by the authenticity of the culprits. This is literally just an attack on the big D and if supported by the GOP then I would argue that the GOP centrists and rationals ought to break away and create the 3rd party we've all wanted.

They can try, but it won't work. One, several legislatures have already said they won't do it (or are prevented by state law from doing it), and two, he needs several states for it to work. If this was a 2000 scenario that came down to a razor-thin margin in 1 state, I'd already write off the election as Trump winning, but there are too many moving parts for him to pull this off this time, thankfully.

I just think the blowback in each of these states would be too great, and each of them has to take a leap of faith that the others are going to follow through and have clear legal grounds to do it, otherwise you've just essentially thrown the Constitution into the garbage, only to have to apologize, pull it back out again, dust it off, and re-frame it. I don't see it happening.

They've already 'thrown' so much on the trash heap...in Mich. They literally just did that but relented. Who knows why? They're working on it and all I can hope for is that somewhere someone in the GOP says you know what, Trump you can have the TOP but we're starting the GOP.

I agree and people saying it will never be successful remind we of the stories a
From history books on the Weimar Republic days before Hitler took power. We need to wake the fuck up . The Ds need to get more aggressive in the Congress and Senate to voice outrage and if progressives want to get pisseed off this would be a great time to get out to the streets protesting at the WH gates to send the message this is not going to happen here in America.....that all being said this all will not happen and we are likely sad to say going to wake with Trump as prez still in 6 months.

Even if it was just one state, I just don't buy that Kavanaugh and Roberts would go along with that. Article II gives state legislatures the power to deterrmine the manner in which electors are selected, but there's no reasonable reading of that clause that allows them to make an ex post facto change of the manner they've already selected.

This will probably never come to fruition, but moderate republicans and conservative democrats could build a coalition that would be supported by a significant portion of the population. The closest I've seen that happen is the Johnson/Weld ticket in 2016. Although they ran on the Libertarian ticket, they were essentially moderate republicans who had previously won their gubernatorial re-election bids in landslides in traditionally democrat states (New Mexico and Massachusetts).

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Our fellow citizens and neighbors.

https://abc7chicago.com/disturbing-n...ernor/8079861/

These guys make a real strong argument for the death penalty. Hopefully nobody involved will ever see freedom again.

They’ll get pardons from Trump.

“Law and Order”

You could argue that coalition just won the white house.

State crime so don't think he can pardon them.

Perhaps on the socially liberal side, but most definitely not on the fiscally conservative side. I don’t recall the Biden/Harris ticket campaigning on smaller, more efficient government.

Rules don't seem to apply these days.

Can you legally commit treason against an individual state? Or is treason just a federal crime?

I agree that Roberts won't, but Kavanuagh has already suggested he might. I think there is a decent chance that Kavanaugh, Alito, Thomas and Barret might. Gorsuch would be the questionable one.

I guess it gets into a bit of semantics, but fiscal conservatism means assuring that outlays are covered by current income. Current being the key, deficit spending should be the antithesis of conservatism. So raising taxes and holding spending would qualify. I think the only Republican president in my life time who was actually fiscally conservative was HW Bush. Must be why he’s so revered by the party now.

For instance on health care, the argument over how much of a role the government should play in providing insurance isn’t a fiscal policy debate. It only becomes fiscal when a policy is decided and you move on to how to pay for it.

To be fair, you said "moderate republicans and conservative democrats"

Not socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Because I doubt the later really exists anymore in politics. The previous fiscal conservative people were shown to be a farce (ie, Paul Ryan).

"Small government" = "I hate people"

/prove me wrong guy/

I know, Ben will say *blah blah Church* but you know, by and large.

I think Trump has shown pretty definitively that there's no large group of fiscally conservative voters. People like getting things from the government, although admittedly some of them don't want other people to get free things.

It is same socially as well. "Don't take my freedom by making me wear a mask, but you better not have the gay sex or have an abortion."

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

It's interesting how people tend to define their own principles differently than how others would define them on their behalf.

And therein lies the rub. We could raise the federal income tax to 100% on those evil rich people in the highest tax bracket, and it would have a minuscule effect on reducing the national debt. How many democrats are in favor of making the painful spending cuts (except national defense) that are necessary to make a meaningful difference in reducing the debt?

It's all but impossible to get to a balanced budget without tax increases. The budget is defense, Socal Security, healthcare, interest, and everything else. The public has shown they won't accept cuts in SS and healthcare, and defense won't get meaningfully cut, so there's no realistic way to get to balanced with spending cuts.

The top 10% owns something like 70% of the country's wealth.

The bottom 50% owns more like 2%.

How again does taxing the rich not produce funds?

Biden has supported PAYGO for as long as I can remember. Much more fiscally conservative than Trump or any Republican that has run in decades.

so what praytell does "fiscally liberal" mean?

Believing in no limit to government spending, and that the country can tax its way into prosperity.

When is the last time Biden has said anything about PAYGO?

And the spending plans he campaigned on are much more fiscally irresponsible than anything we've seen thus far.

He has spent the last 40 years talking about budget deficits and being fiscally responsible. He is arguably the most fiscally conservative President elected since Carter.

His campaign platform centered around raising revenue to pay for existing and future programs. Getting rid of a portion of the Trump tax cuts and eliminating business loopholes. He left the door open to some deficit spending while we get out of the pandemic, but that's it.

To say his spending plan is fiscally irresponsible is a complete fabrication. There is zero evidence of that in the campaign or in his long history as a politician.

Trump appointed two openly white supremacists to government jobs the other day. So the administration hasn't completely stopped governing.

The last balanced budget we had was under a Democratic president. Fiscally responsible Republican is a myth. Cut taxes and spend money like a drunken sailor. Just make sure none goes to poor people.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I love that one party has literally undermined free and fair elections and brought us to the brink of literal Civil War, but some people are still like "maybe, but the libs will tax us into a depression!"

Fuck off, sincerely

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...bc9_story.html

The comment by mtbspd is one to chew on, I think:

that sounds like a king sitting on a pile of gold stuffing his face with fat pheasants and buying goldplated toilet paper to wipe his ass

what? you mean like buying more stupid fighter jets?

Bill Clinton, after the republicans won a landslide in the 1994 mid-term elections, taking over both houses of Congress. It was part of his successful “triangulation” strategy to win re-election in 1996. Basically, stick your finger into the wind to see where public opinion lies on every important issue. He certainly didn’t show much interest in balancing the budget between 1993 and 1994, when the democrats controlled the White House, the senate and the House of Representatives.

1993 deficit was lower than 1992 and 1994 was lower than 1993. The tax increase in 1993 was primarily about reducing the budget deficit.

No no, JPhillips. We have to play along with the fantasy.
I have said before that the Iraq War was the reason I left the Republican party, and that is true. It was the final straw. What started me down the slope, though, was the fiction of fiscally responsible Republicans. Before 9/11, and before the war you could see George W and the Republican congress spending money like crazy. Huge increases in the budget along with tax cuts. The budget surplus went down faster than a prom date. I had been told over and over and over again how if we just had a Republican President and a Republican congress, then spending would get under control. What actually happened is "let's cut social programs, unless it is a windfall to drug companies, and for every dollar we cut we will give two in a tax cut to the rich, two to businesses and two more to defense contractors. Spend spend spend, cut cut cut. Then go to endless wars to spend some more on no bid contracts to our donors, while they don't provide the soldiers the resources needed.
Fiscally responsible my aunt Fanny.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Talking about fiscal responsibility and practicing it are two different things. Exactly what in his past makes you think that he's "arguably the most fiscally conservative President elected since Carter". He campaigned on trillions of dollars of new spending and not enough tax increases to pay for it.

I hope Biden is fiscally responsible. Honestly, I think he may actually have a fiscally responsible presidency because McConnell won't enact any of his big spending plans.

I don't think McConnell is fiscally responsible either, only that he's a giant dick.

will seriously be disppointed if VH1 doesn't air the trump reality show that follows him around with a camera this month

Watched Rudy’s presser, that was fucking unbelievable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Worth every penny of the $20k/day he's being paid!

I think Rudy and McConnell are both slowly rotting from the inside and shedding their human form. McConnell's hands now Rudy's brain-juice.

I used to like Rudy. I lived in NYC when he was mayor. I certainly admire a good prosecutor. He's lost his mind and his reputation.

:D

brainjuice ITT

We don't know what Biden will do till he's President. But we do know what he's done the last 40 years.

Fiscal responsibility was always just a tool to get tax cuts for the rich. Now that they found ways to funnel taxpayer funds to the rich, they don't mind the spending part.

I must say I'm REALLY tired of all the facebook articles flying by saying "Biden will do this in the first few days!"

Hell's bells he can't even get his name on the door yet, stop "saying" what "He WILL DO".

I'm sure he hasn't said everything he will do and in fact I am sure he is going to have groups of people around him all finding the best way to do things...it isn't just a one man show. Never was

This is pure gold, from Kevin Williamson: pic.twitter.com/d8YwQ8W8C1

— David French (@DavidAFrench) November 20, 2020

It's never too late to open one's eyes, but French was urging conservatives to vote GOP except for Trump just three weeks ago.

Trump lawyers continuing with their bang-up job and eye on detail. You have to wonder if this is just straight-up purposeful now. Bar licenses need to be taken when the dust settles...

So @realdonaldTrump's lawyers submitted to a federal court an affidavit purportedly showing irregularities in voting patterns in MICHIGAN.

It turns out that that the affidavit contained data about towns in MINNESOTA. https://t.co/0VBQ6lwLEY

— George Conway (@gtconway3d) November 20, 2020

I LOLd at the last paragraph:

An article today at Business Insider says Trump knows he lost, knows the cases have no chance of changing anything, and that dragging this out is to undermine Biden before he takes office as revenge against Dems for the Mueller investigation and impeachment.

That's actually one of the few scenarios that makes sense, matches Trump's personality, and explains the horrible cases that are going before judges. They don't care. It's not about winning in court.

Unfortunately his pathetic mindset of fucking up the country as a petty revenge tactic, still won't register with a large portion of his base. The koolaid in his cult is strong and of course he will spend the next year bloviating about every struggle Biden has as proof that he should have won, and the cult will eat it up. Never mind that shit like this will possibly be a big part of any struggles Biden has early next year.

I think you mean next 4 years BYU. That is, unless he goes to jail. He won't do the "presidential" thing and back off, he won't let him lead the country, and he'll stick his fucking ass in every news event, decision, and he'll try to fuck with every opportunity for his own benefit. Which on it's own, should send him to jail.

The dems better realize the best chance they have to keep Trump off the ticket in 2024 is to throw his ass in jail.

Trump four years older doesn't scare me much.

I don't know. Look at Lou Dobbs 4 years older. He fucking scares me. Now imagine that loon in office. He could be a mentally diminished semi-corpse and the election would be a toss-up.

Trumps’s presidential memoir is going to be amazing. Cannot imagine what type of fantasyland he will have dreamed up with another year of seething anger and isolation.

People don’t tend to get less bigoted and racist as they age...

No, but they do tend to get less effective. He's still got the cult, but the magic isn't there anymore.

They just kicked his ass. Now would be able to run 2024 as an incumbent. Dems I think would be happy with him running again.

Totally disagree on several levels. I doubt Biden runs for a second term, and if he does his presidency has a good chance of being a shit show from having to clean up the mess Trump left. I doubt the dem turnout is as good next time, no way there is as much enthusiasm. Lets not pretend a lot of the dem turnout wasn't anti Trump. four years is a long time and people have very short attention spans.

I think one way to insure high turnout by the Dems is to have Trump on the ticket again. He'll be older and not have the same magic. Plus 4 more years of racist and xenophobic rants. Just don't see how he can win back votes.

I'm more fearful of a candidate who is like Trump but can hide it behind a better persona. Shit, Ivanka would scare me more than a near 80 year old Donald Trump. Republicans flipped a bunch of Dem seats and most of those candidates were women.

Should add that my opinion changes if the media does it's dumb rehab thing on him over the years. For example, take a look at how Bush is viewed by the public today.

It would be tough to rehab his image in the main stream media, but I can definitely see the right wing media play him as a tragic, persecuted figure.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I wish to note this moment for posterity; I agree with RainMaker. I will now leave the thread so as to not risk disrupting this beautiful and rare event.

I've seen that sentiment a lot, and even thought it myself, but there's also the undeniable fact that so many people are drawn to him because of his uniquely awful persona. They love that he's an asshole to the people they hate, or want taken down, or whatever perceived/real grievance they have with a myriad of different groups. I'm not sure a "slicker" version of Trump sticks as well.

Just find someone younger who has the same attitude and approach to politics as Trump. And during the 2024 primary have them call Trump a boomer. What are reactionaries gonna do about it? Stick with their boomer or go with a younger version of Trump?

A huge reason why Trump got so much momentum early 2016 is that he started off as a meme saying stupid shit and his soundbites went viral on Youtube. It would be very poetic and ironic if Trump got Jeb'd.

I think this is where you are wrong; I think Ivanka steps in and Trump bleats about how his genes are continuing to lead America.

I think Don Jr and Eric are too stupid; but Ivanka and Jared will basically steal like Donnie and keep him out of trouble.

The Trumpanzees will eat it up even as the Republicans fall into line and fleece the middle class and revile the lower class while keeping the ultra Rich in power (the rich see this as a net benefit as well).

I think there's a significant part of the Trump voting block that would never vote for a woman for President, but maybe I'm wrong

SI

They would if they thought she was fuckable.

Especially when Trump has said she's fuckable.

Someone who has the same attitude wouldn't be hiding anything. He'd just be a younger asshole without the name recognition. And going after Trump that way is bound to backfire among his true believers.

I don't know the chance of success, but I think it is a good move:

President Donald Trump is "openly seeking to disenfranchise Black voters," citing baseless claims of election fraud, the lawsuit argues. https://t.co/FrADTMD7r3

— HuffPost Politics (@HuffPostPol) November 21, 2020

Even if the lawsuit won't go anywhere it's good to get the discussion going. The GOP gets away with a lot without any counter-messaging from the left.

Weren't pretty much all flipped house seats due to female republican candidates ?

Most were, but I think there's a difference between being in Congress or even VP and being the President.

SI

Trump loses again, this one in federal court in PA. Judge not happy at all with them and closes the case with prejudice-this is the one Rudy argued.

They just sent a wing of B-52's to an unknown location in the Middle East.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

If that's a thing, they are certainly going to Diego Garcia.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-milita...mpression=true

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Israeli sources are saying Netanyahu flew to SA and met with MBS & Pompeo. SA Foreign Minister is denying it (but would he even know, and if he did, would he fess up?). I can see Trump doing a full court press to get this done before he leaves office.

I don't know Blinken's approach on ME but it would make sense to me, all things held equal, that SA would make a big show, ask for concessions, and give the "win" to Biden (vs lame duck Trump/Pompeo) to help relationships in the next 4 years.

Regardless, hoping SA will join the fold to normalize relations with Israel.

Probably the luckiest thing is that Biden probably has an established network to talk with certain powers to counter Trump's dangerous activities. I think most of the world is done with Trump and even if there are a boatload of deplorables here happy to burn down the US. Most world leaders see such instability as a danger and will do everything to stabilize.

Trump really is a danger and threat to everyone, he should be dealt with like a rabid dog.

You don't see UAE, Bahrain & possibly SA normalizing relationships with Israel as a good thing? or you don't think Trump & co. deserves the credit?

I think yes for the former and do think Trump & co gets credit for this push, he was somehow able to threaten, cajole, bribe etc. UAE & Bahrain to do it and doubt Hillary would have been as successful.

Trump deserves nothing but prison.

I mean, how much will it really change the way that the region is no longer relevant to us? We’ve already achieved the holy grail of ME policy, through domestic production and renewables their oil can be safely ignored now when the US is forming foreign policy. That’s the game changer. Whatever Netanyahu or MBS are doing it’s for domestic reasons. So we can give Trump credit for falling for that con one last time I guess.

Although we are now producing a lot more domestic oil, we still import about 9M+ barrels a day because of different grades of crude. I do agree that is where we want to be, we shouldn't be getting into stuff in the ME because we need the oil. Definitely going in the right direction, I just don't think we are there yet ... maybe, 20+ years?


It's primarily regional vs domestic, and I think why it'll happen is because of Iran. Enemy of a bigger enemy is my frenemy. Iraq & Yemen is the battleground proxy. SA stands no chance militarily against Iran so they have to make friends.

For Netanyahu, the added bonus is the Palestinian issue is more and more irrelevant as Arab countries now are more concerned about Iran (and other stuff) than the Palestinians.

US will stay in the region to counter Iran by supporting Israel and the frenemies. I'm not sure China's stance here with Iran vs SA, have to read up more about that.

Trump Exits Open Skies Treaty, Moves to Discard Observation Planes - WSJ

So Trump pulled the US out of the Open Skies treaty and is destroying the observation planes...so no more getting surveillance from Russia for us and our allies.

Why does it always go back to Russia?


It is stuff like this that just makes me want to scream. He is not hiding his attempt to harm our country. It is not in the least bit covert. He his doing it in plain sight. Just like his attempt to steal the election. Remember the Post Master General destroying expensive sorting equipment? I mean, these things aren't even subtle. The sudden pull out of Syria? The constant middle finger to our Allies? Yet, the supposed Super Patriots go along with it. They have the help of the enabling "it really is no big deal" people, along with the "but he helped my 401k" crew. Agh!

Don't know what the WSJ article says but the CNN article said Russia does not always adhere to it. However, European allies want it because I guess something is better than nothing. And we have shared satellite photos with the allies.

Don't know all the pros and cons but this particular treaty doesn't seem that compelling to me.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/22/polit...ies/index.html

It is so unimportant, that they have ordered the planes disassembled to make sure the treaty can't be re-enacted. Sounds like it is pretty important they make sure it is gone.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of days, and in particular his ‘I love the uneducated’ line in 2016. He knew even then that he could make people believe what he said regardless of facts or what other information was in the public domain, and was telling everyone, trolling us in fact

He may have had some genius by making people try to think what type of 3D politics he was playing, when he was just punching you in the face

link?

Trump Exits Open Skies Treaty, Moves to Discard Observation Planes - WSJ