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RainMaker 08-17-2021 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miami_fan (Post 3342808)
Well given that we are wedded to the binary in so many ways, it's either they just wanted Taliban rule OR they wanted democracy in the way we see it. They did not accept the second option so they HAD to have wanted the first option. There are no other acceptable answers.


Well we never really offer democracy to these countries. They can pick a leader, but it has to be someone we approve of who will hand all the valuable resources to our businesses. It's the same proposition we've made in Central and South America for half a century.

Plus we aren't exactly all that big on democracy in our own country, so maybe we shouldn't be the ones trying to set it up elsewhere.

Brian Swartz 08-17-2021 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainmaker
The Taliban did offer to hand Bin Laden over to us. We said no.


They did no such thing, and specifically refused to. The Taliban offered first to try Bin Laden in Afghanistan, and then later went as far as saying they were willing to hand Bin Laden only, none of the rest of the organization, over to a third country that the US would agree to not put pressure on for extradition etc, for trial in that hypothetical third country. This was accompanied by a demand for evidence, evidence they had already been given not just by us, but also by Pakistan after they'd reviewed our information.

I think those are and were transparently unreasonable terms.

I think you're largely correct when it comes to corruption on the military side of things, and partially when it comes to keeping our hands on the wheel too much in forming the new Afghan government. But this idea that all we had to do is accept them handing over Bin Laden to avert a war just isn't so.

miami_fan 08-17-2021 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3342823)
Well we never really offer democracy to these countries. They can pick a leader, but it has to be someone we approve of who will hand all the valuable resources to our businesses. It's the same proposition we've made in Central and South America for half a century.

Plus we aren't exactly all that big on democracy in our own country, so maybe we shouldn't be the ones trying to set it up elsewhere.


Quote:

it's either they just wanted Taliban rule OR they wanted democracy in the way we see it.

For emphasis.

sterlingice 08-17-2021 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3342805)
Least you could do is stay current pal. I made this bad joke yesterday :P


Dad jokes are always better the second time around :D

(whoops, my bad)

SI

RainMaker 08-17-2021 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3342824)
They did no such thing, and specifically refused to. The Taliban offered first to try Bin Laden in Afghanistan, and then later went as far as saying they were willing to hand Bin Laden only, none of the rest of the organization, over to a third country that the US would agree to not put pressure on for extradition etc, for trial in that hypothetical third country. This was accompanied by a demand for evidence, evidence they had already been given not just by us, but also by Pakistan after they'd reviewed our information.

I think those are and were transparently unreasonable terms.

I think you're largely correct when it comes to corruption on the military side of things, and partially when it comes to keeping our hands on the wheel too much in forming the new Afghan government. But this idea that all we had to do is accept them handing over Bin Laden to avert a war just isn't so.


The Taliban offered many times to turn him over if the United States would provide them with evidence he was behind the attack. They even were willing to involve the OIC which is a very favorable bloc that is pro-US. The Taliban is obviously not a reliable source, but neither is George Bush.

Ignoring the fact we had no extradition treaty with Afghanistan, there are next to no countries who would willingly turn over people without evidence or an agreement. That includes our closest allies.

The United States had no interest in trying Bin Laden. It's why their offers were always vague enough to be out of reach (just like they did with Iraq). They wanted war. Likely a mix of the country needing the morale boost of blowing up some brown folks and enriching military contractors.

But the fact is that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are different entities with different goals. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.

RainMaker 08-17-2021 07:20 PM

For those who are surprised Afghans would support the Taliban, remember that we spent the 80's pumping their citizens with radical Islamic materials in the hopes it would help them fight the Soviets better.

You spend billions pumping propaganda into a country and then are shocked that they bought it.

Vegas Vic 08-17-2021 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3342832)
For those who are surprised Afghans would support the Taliban, remember that we spent the 80's pumping their citizens with radical Islamic materials in the hopes it would help them fight the Soviets better.


The Soviet Union did a much better job of trying to force their ideology on Afghanistan than we did. After withdrawing, it took three years for their Marxist puppet government to fall, and it took three weeks for our democratic puppet government to fall.

Brian Swartz 08-17-2021 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker
Ignoring the fact we had no extradition treaty with Afghanistan, there are next to no countries who would willingly turn over people without evidence or an agreement. That includes our closest allies.


They were given evidence though. By Pakistan, who got it from us. Pakistan agreed the evidence was sufficient, and they were longstanding Taliban allies, having fought with them against the Northern Alliance in numbers of tens of thousands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker
the fact is that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are different entities with different goals. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.


They absolutely were different entities with different goals, but they were also de facto allies. This wasn't the first time the Taliban had been furnished proof of Bin Laden's involvement of terrorism and asked to take action. This included, among other elements, UN Security Council Resolution 1267 which, almost two years prior to 9/11, demanded Bin Laden be turned over and that the Taliban stop permitting it's territory be used for terrorist training activities. It's not as if 9/11 happened and it was the first thing Bin Laden had done, the Taliban were shocked that their friend would do such a thing and needed proof to verify it. The international community had been very clear with them in escalating terms leading up to 9/11 and had gotten nowhere.

Vegas Vic 08-17-2021 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3342852)
This included, among other elements, UN Security Council Resolution 1267 which, almost two years prior to 9/11, demanded Bin Laden be turned over and that the Taliban stop permitting it's territory be used for terrorist training activities. It's not as if 9/11 happened and it was the first thing Bin Laden had done, the Taliban were shocked that their friend would do such a thing and needed proof to verify it. The international community had been very clear with them in escalating terms leading up to 9/11 and had gotten nowhere.


The Taliban were complicit with and very accommodating of several Al Qaeda training camps, the most notorious of which was the Al Farouq training camp which operated unabated throughout the 90's until September 2001. Four of the 9/11 hijackers received their basic training at Al Farouq.

RainMaker 08-18-2021 10:53 AM

Wait till you guys hear about Saudi Arabia.....

The Taliban are bad but they also didn't have anything to do with 9/11. There are a lot more countries and groups in that region who helped 9/11 than the Taliban ever did.

Vegas Vic 08-18-2021 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3342908)
The Taliban are bad but they also didn't have anything to do with 9/11. There are a lot more countries and groups in that region who helped 9/11 than the Taliban ever did.


There are a lot of very fine people on both sides.

miami_fan 08-18-2021 04:05 PM

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani reportedly fled Kabul with $169 million in cash

Yes, the source is the Russian Embassy. Yes, the Afghan president says it is not true. No, I am not letting any of those things get in the way of the story as reported.

Quote:

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has been "welcomed" to the United Arab Emirates on "humanitarian grounds," the UAE government confirmed Wednesday. On Sunday, Ghani fled Kabul without announcement or known destination, as the Taliban laid siege to Afghanistan's capital, writes CNBC. He took with him $169 million in cash, reports BBC journalist Kawoon Khamoosh.

sterlingice 08-18-2021 04:19 PM

How do you carry around $169M in cash? Like even if they're all hundreds, that's over a million bills.

Grasping Large Numbers

"The height of a stack of 1,000,000 one dollar bills measures 4,300 inches or 358 feet – about the height of a 30 to 35 story building."

SI

molson 08-18-2021 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice (Post 3342959)
How do you carry around $169M in cash? Like even if they're all hundreds, that's over a million bills.

Grasping Large Numbers

"The height of a stack of 1,000,000 one dollar bills measures 4,300 inches or 358 feet – about the height of a 30 to 35 story building."

SI


Corrupt world leaders have access to higher denomination bills.

Spoiler

miami_fan 08-18-2021 04:37 PM

The fact that it is supposedly USDs as opposed to Euros or some other currency is fitting. Almost like it was shipped directly from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. Almost.

sterlingice 08-18-2021 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 3342960)
Corrupt world leaders have access to higher denomination bills.


I was going to make a trillion dollar bill joke and then didn't. Good to see someone picked up the spare on my 7-10 split

SI

molson 08-18-2021 08:58 PM

After the mediocre presidents reference it was the least I could do.

Edward64 08-19-2021 06:10 AM

No idea how this will play out or how real the story re: ability to resist is, but interesting tidbit that ties back to previous post about Massoud.

Inside the Afghanistan province that refuses Taliban control
Quote:

The small, picturesque province of Panjshir – meaning “five lions” – at the foot of the lush Hindu Kush mountain range has become the last bulwark against Taliban fighters, who have seized the country at breakneck speed after America’s pullout.
:
In the immediate aftermath of Kabul’s fall to the insurgents Sunday, high-ranking Afghanistan government officials immediately directed helicopters and armored vehicles to be sent to Panjshir before the equipment could be seized by the Taliban.

A number of Afghan Special Forces and security personnel who rebuffed orders to put down their weapons and accede to the Taliban also took the bumpy road into the province before the Taliban could seal the city’s entries and exits.

And while the Taliban have claimed Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar to be the embattled nation’s rightful leader, First Vice-President (FVP) of Afghanistan Amrullah Saleh relocated to Panjshir on Sunday and declared himself the president. Citing the country’s constitution, he reiterated in a statement that “in the event of escape, resignation or death of the President, the FVP becomes the caretaker President.
:
According to Hayat, several other high-ranking government leaders – including its minister of defense and some provincial commanders – are in Panjshir, too, to mobilize assets and prepare to defend the mosaic of land as the region makes what could be its last stand against the Taliban.

The treasured area is now presided over by 32-year-old, British-educated Ahmad Massoud, who commands thousands of deeply dedicated fighters to protect the parcel and is the son of late national hero and anti-Soviet resistance fighter Ahmad Shah Massoud.
:
The Panjshir Valley remains the only parcel of Afghan soil that has never succumb to Taliban control, including during the militant group’s previous reign from 1996 to 2001.

And throughout much of the US-led occupation of Afghanistan, which saw blood stain most of the landlocked country, Panjshir remained largely untouched as a result of its same devoted force of locals.

Vegas Vic 08-19-2021 09:10 AM

Yeah, it's too bad that former vice president Amrullah Saleh wasn't the president all along. He tweeted this earlier this week:

Quote:

I will never, ever & under no circumstances bow to d Talib terrorists. I will never betray d soul & legacy of my hero Ahmad Shah Masoud, the commander, the legend & the guide. I won't dis-appoint millions who listened to me. I will never be under one ceiling with Taliban. NEVER.

NobodyHere 08-19-2021 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3343009)
Yeah, it's too bad that former vice president Amrullah Saleh wasn't the president all along. He tweeted this earlier this week:


As our last President proved, there is no problem that can't be solved by tweeting!

RainMaker 08-19-2021 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3342954)
There are a lot of very fine people on both sides.


It's a factual statement. The Taliban did not commit 9/11. I know it's against the 20 years of propaganda spewed but it's the truth.

The Taliban is a horrendous, backward ass piece of shit group. But they didn't commit 9/11 and we never really went after the people that helped facilitate it (because they sell us a lot of oil or have scary weapons).

sterlingice 08-19-2021 10:36 AM

So, more accurately "there's a lot of bad people on both sides?"

SI

JPhillips 08-19-2021 11:10 AM



White nationalists are gonna white nationalist

NobodyHere 08-19-2021 11:12 AM

Dare I say that anyone who didn't answer that question as "Neither good nor bad" is a racist?

PilotMan 08-19-2021 11:18 AM

Re Afghanistan:

I really don't know why people are so up in arms about all this. Look, they had 20 years to figure it out, now, when the money and assistance walks away, are they pointing back and saying that we've done nothing and abandoned them. Look, in a country that essentially operated like a bunch of Sith Warlords, even in the 'legitimate' part that was set up, if you don't appease every corner all the time, they turn and cut you behind your back to seize power at the next level. That's the way that it was before 9/11 and that's how it'll be now. Mostly because the country is so isolated economically from the world that all leadership is based from the ground up. So if my corner doesn't like what the leadership at the top says, I reject it, then get a whole bunch of people to side with me and reject it, and then I claim my own leadership status until I'm deposed by someone else, and rinse and repeat forever. So after 20 years of trying to make inroads in that culture, and largely getting undercut by the Taliban and their foreign supporters we leave, and we leave the rest of them to the country that they wanted all along. The Taliban are more brutal and not afraid of using force to keep everyone in line, and while that's not terribly enlightened it's got to give Jon a huge boner. The country has the leaders and government that they always wanted, because if they wanted something else, someone else, or a legit group would have garnered enough support to make it happen with the billions that have flowed into the country.

RainMaker 08-19-2021 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice (Post 3343023)
So, more accurately "there's a lot of bad people on both sides?"

SI


I would say that is a fair assessment.

RainMaker 08-19-2021 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3343036)
Re Afghanistan:

I really don't know why people are so up in arms about all this. Look, they had 20 years to figure it out, now, when the money and assistance walks away, are they pointing back and saying that we've done nothing and abandoned them. Look, in a country that essentially operated like a bunch of Sith Warlords, even in the 'legitimate' part that was set up, if you don't appease every corner all the time, they turn and cut you behind your back to seize power at the next level. That's the way that it was before 9/11 and that's how it'll be now. Mostly because the country is so isolated economically from the world that all leadership is based from the ground up. So if my corner doesn't like what the leadership at the top says, I reject it, then get a whole bunch of people to side with me and reject it, and then I claim my own leadership status until I'm deposed by someone else, and rinse and repeat forever. So after 20 years of trying to make inroads in that culture, and largely getting undercut by the Taliban and their foreign supporters we leave, and we leave the rest of them to the country that they wanted all along. The Taliban are more brutal and not afraid of using force to keep everyone in line, and while that's not terribly enlightened it's got to give Jon a huge boner. The country has the leaders and government that they always wanted, because if they wanted something else, someone else, or a legit group would have garnered enough support to make it happen with the billions that have flowed into the country.


We didn't do that though. Most of the money spent went back here to military contractors. The rest was incompetently spent by our own government.

The only goal in the war was enrich certain businesses and maybe get some good PR for a President and Generals.

South Korea is more of the example we should have worked with if the true goal was nation building.

Vegas Vic 08-19-2021 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3343020)
It's a factual statement. The Taliban did not commit 9/11. I know it's against the 20 years of propaganda spewed but it's the truth.

The Taliban is a horrendous, backward ass piece of shit group. But they didn't commit 9/11 and we never really went after the people that helped facilitate it (because they sell us a lot of oil or have scary weapons).


We will have to agree to disagree on this one. While the Taliban did not overtly support Al Qaeda prior to the 9/11 attacks, they were complicit with allowing numerous Al Qaeda terrorist training camps to flourish within their borders.

Al Qaeda ideologue Atiyya Allah al-Libi informed his associates that the Taliban’s public stance toward the group was to deny association to manage international pressures, and that Al Qaeda’s top leadership was comfortable with this position. Al-Libi wrote: “Of course, the Taliban’s policy is to avoid being seen with us or revealing any cooperation or agreement between us and them. That is for the purpose of averting international and regional pressure and out of consideration for regional dynamics. We defer to them in this regard.”

miami_fan 08-19-2021 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3343039)
South Korea is more of the example we should have worked with if the true goal was nation building.


It is amazing to me how rarely South Korea is brought up in cases like this.

albionmoonlight 08-19-2021 02:16 PM



Kind of amazing that as bad as the pullout was, Trump has to come in to remind us "Hey, I would have done it a lot worse. I (apparently) would have left our soldiers there without any equipment or bases or civilian support. Also, the Generals I left in charge after four years as C-I-C suck because I am really bad at personnel."

Like, for 5 minutes there were some people who were thinking "Man, this has gone horribly. I can't imagine even Trump would have done it worse." And that was like the Bat signal to his stupid or something.

PilotMan 08-19-2021 02:44 PM

Raise your hand if you thought that turnip would follow past presidential courtesy and keep quiet and on the sidelines for the betterment of the country and allow the new leadership to effectively govern without someone else distracting or otherwise commenting on every single thing?



Yeah...didn't think so either.

RainMaker 08-19-2021 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miami_fan (Post 3342956)
Afghan President Ashraf Ghani reportedly fled Kabul with $169 million in cash

Yes, the source is the Russian Embassy. Yes, the Afghan president says it is not true. No, I am not letting any of those things get in the way of the story as reported.


These stories are almost always bullshit.

Atocep 08-19-2021 08:57 PM

So many things in that statement. Above all else I'm struggling to get over the fact that our former President posted in an official statement that "you bomb the bases into smithereens".

Lathum 08-19-2021 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3343148)
So many things in that statement. Above all else I'm struggling to get over the fact that our former President posted in an official statement that "you bomb the bases into smithereens".


I love how his strategy is to remove all the Americans and equipment and state they wouldn't know we left. Like they wouldn't wake up one morning and be like, fuck, all the tanks and shit are gone....

Atocep 08-19-2021 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3343158)
I love how his strategy is to remove all the Americans and equipment and state they wouldn't know we left. Like they wouldn't wake up one morning and be like, fuck, all the tanks and shit are gone....


Not to mention the fact that I'm sure no one would notice the bases being blown to "smithereens".

The plan is up there with nuke a hurricane.

GrantDawg 08-20-2021 07:00 AM

The facts doesn't matter. His lemmings eat up anything the Great Lord says.

RainMaker 08-20-2021 03:28 PM

lol

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/20/polit...ina/index.html

Edward64 08-21-2021 05:26 AM

Not a good couple weeks for Biden. Much of the criticism is deserved IMO for this FUBAR. I think we'll be in Afghanistan (airport) for the next several weeks so there'll be weeks more of pics, dire stories etc.

There was a news blurb about US not able to get to citizens (not already at the airport). I don't see how our troops can go out of the airport and pick up folks so best for them to shelter in place. Biden's options are understandably limited here.

Another article said he did not speak to any other world leaders (aka Boris) for 48 hours after the fall. If true, this seems weird to me.

Blurb on him saying AQ not in Afghanistan but then contradicted by DefSec. I think this one is defensible, he wasn't precise with his words but what he said is generally true.

Another on ABC covering up Biden confusing Beau Navy vs Army. Confusion about Beau's service is not reassuring. And of course, Hunter and his latest video he took of himself chatting with prostitute.

Biden has taken some body blows and at least one headshot. He's not counterpunching very well right now.

Edward64 08-21-2021 05:59 AM

I've not read about Pelosi wanting Senate to pass both the $1.2T Infrastructure and the $3T Families bill before proceeding. I rather just do the $1.2T first and then worry about the $3T but can appreciate her games(wo)manship.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/20/hous...mic-plans.html
Quote:

The House of Representatives will return to Washington next week, setting up the latest test for President Joe Biden’s sprawling economic agenda.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., plans to hold a procedural vote as soon as Monday to move forward with a handful of Democratic priorities: the $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure legislation passed by the Senate, the $3.5 trillion Democratic plan to expand the social safety net, and a voting rights bill.

She then aims to join the Senate in passing a budget resolution, the first step toward Democrats approving their massive spending plan without a Republican vote.

The spending plan is not expected to get through the Senate for weeks or even months, which would put off the final passage of the infrastructure bill, if all goes according to Pelosi’s plans.

In an effort to keep progressives on board with the smaller infrastructure plan and centrists in line with trillions more in new spending, Pelosi has said she will not take up either economic plan until the Senate passes both of them. Opposition from within her caucus has threatened to derail the speaker’s plans, leaving Democrats looking for a path forward as they return to the Capitol.

Flasch186 08-21-2021 06:30 AM

It’s good to see cnn hammering Biden too if not just to show me that they weren’t just anti trump to be anti trump

Don’t make a difference in our current country but good for me anyways


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brian Swartz 08-21-2021 10:09 AM

I think that's a mistake by Pelosi, who I think in general has been making more and more of those from a tactical/strategic standpoint in recent years. Risks losing both of them with how much more opposition there is to the larger package.

JPhillips 08-21-2021 11:54 AM

The duel track has always been a part of this. The left don't trust that the moderates will vote on the second bill, and the moderates won't start with the bigger bill. Neither bill will pass by itself.

Brian Swartz 08-21-2021 12:44 PM

That's unfortunate. The reporting I'd seen was indicating that the first bill was a sure thing at this point and the only question was on the second one. Seems to me a good recipe for getting nothing passed.

JPhillips 08-21-2021 12:46 PM

Progressives won't vote for the first bill if it's by itself. That's always been the case. Even Manchin understands this is the only way.

Now I could see the reconciliation bill total coming down a bit, but it has to pass with or before the bipartisan bill.

Vegas Vic 08-21-2021 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 3343307)
It’s good to see cnn hammering Biden too if not just to show me that they weren’t just anti trump to be anti trump


I've been following this closely, and I think that General Austin Miller is going to be the sacrificial lamb in this ordeal. He has a perfect service record and did the best he could with the hand he was dealt over there. He sent several reports up through command on how the Afghan army could not hold.

Secretary of State Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley should be the ones to take the fall for this, but they're going to throw Miller under the bus. Biden doesn't want to lose any cabinet members so soon for incompetence.

Brian Swartz 08-21-2021 01:00 PM

Does he though? Maybe you've got sources that I don't, or reporting I haven't seen, or statements that I can't find.

Everything I've seen for a long time, and a week ago Manchin said something quite similar, goes the other direction. He said he doesn't understand why the House is holding the first bill hostage, said that the bills should be voted up or down separately on their own merits, that he doesn't support the larger bill in it's current form ...

I mean we can always say he's grandstanding, I just don't see how there isn't a huge risk that he means what he's saying - and he's far from the only vote in question here - and that we don't end up in a situation where either the larger bill gets a hatchet taken to it in which case progressives won't approve it, or moderates like Manchin just say no and then neither one passes. What info is out there that I haven't seen?

JPhillips 08-21-2021 01:14 PM

Quote:

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) said on Tuesday that he's supportive of going forward with a larger, Democratic-only infrastructure bill but that it shouldn't be linked to a separate bipartisan framework.

Manchin, during an interview with MSNBC, said that he had been assuming since "day one" that Democrats would have to use reconciliation, a budget process that allows them to bypass a 60-vote legislative filibuster, to pass a larger infrastructure bill because Republicans don't want to make changes to the 2017 tax bill.

“We're going to have to work it through reconciliation, which I’ve agreed that that can be done. I just haven’t agreed on the amount, because I haven’t seen everything that everyone is wanting to put in the bill," Manchin said on MSNBC.

Manchin knows the landscape and while he may bring down the total a bit, he's already shown that when it matters, when he has to vote, he's for proceeding.

I don't think they should be linked and I'll not vote for reconciliation are two very different positions.

Edward64 08-21-2021 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3343351)
Does he though? Maybe you've got sources that I don't, or reporting I haven't seen, or statements that I can't find.

Everything I've seen for a long time, and a week ago Manchin said something quite similar, goes the other direction. He said he doesn't understand why the House is holding the first bill hostage, said that the bills should be voted up or down separately on their own merits, that he doesn't support the larger bill in it's current form ...

I mean we can always say he's grandstanding, I just don't see how there isn't a huge risk that he means what he's saying - and he's far from the only vote in question here - and that we don't end up in a situation where either the larger bill gets a hatchet taken to it in which case progressives won't approve it, or moderates like Manchin just say no and then neither one passes. What info is out there that I haven't seen?


Biden did back away from a veto threat back in Jun after the bipartisanship infrastructure was approved. An argument can be made that he always expected/hinted this but agree with you I didn't read it in the news (or at least it wasn't widespread in the MSM that I read) since then.

My guess is the $3.5T will come down some but overall, it delays the $1.2T and brings in a lot of unknowns.

Biden walks back veto threat on infrastructure amid GOP pushback
Quote:

President Joe Biden on Saturday walked back a threat to veto his bipartisan infrastructure deal amid intense pushback from Republicans that jeopardized the fragile agreement just one day after it was reached.

In a prepared statement, Biden said he "understandably upset some Republicans" when he said Thursday he would only sign the $1.2 trillion infrastructure deal into law if Congress also passes a multitrillion-dollar package focused on "human infrastructure" outlined in his American Families Plan and supported by only Democrats.

"My comments also created the impression that I was issuing a veto threat on the very plan I had just agreed to, which was certainly not my intent," Biden said.

miami_fan 08-21-2021 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3343349)
I've been following this closely, and I think that General Austin Miller is going to be the sacrificial lamb in this ordeal. He has a perfect service record and did the best he could with the hand he was dealt over there. He sent several reports up through command on how the Afghan army could not hold.

Secretary of State Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley should be the ones to take the fall for this, but they're going to throw Miller under the bus. Biden doesn't want to lose any cabinet members so soon for incompetence.


I am curious why you think Gen. Miller would be sacrificed. I took a quick look and he is scheduled to retire after 38 years. I think this would have been his last assignment no matter what so I don't think it is a forced retirement in any way.

BYU 14 08-21-2021 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3343349)
I've been following this closely, and I think that General Austin Miller is going to be the sacrificial lamb in this ordeal. He has a perfect service record and did the best he could with the hand he was dealt over there. He sent several reports up through command on how the Afghan army could not hold.

Secretary of State Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley should be the ones to take the fall for this, but they're going to throw Miller under the bus. Biden doesn't want to lose any cabinet members so soon for incompetence.


Agree 100% and I hope they don't try and scapegoat a man about to retire, whose service to this country has been impeccable. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I can't see much room for any of it to fall on his shoulders.

Edward64 08-22-2021 05:59 AM

The polling was done Aug 13-16. The Taliban entered Kabul Aug 15. So it was done in the height of the confusion. More polling to come but not a good sign for Biden.

Poll: Support for Afghanistan withdrawal plummets as Taliban seize control - POLITICO
Quote:

The poll, conducted from Aug. 13-16 among a sample of 1,999 registered voters, indicated that just 25 percent of American voters think the withdrawal from Afghanistan is going well. Just 49 percent of voters continued to support the withdrawal, down from 69 percent in April.
:
Of the voters surveyed, 38 percent said the U.S. should still withdraw if the Taliban regains control of most of Afghanistan. Forty-five percent of voters said the U.S. should probably or definitely not withdraw, a larger share than those who generally opposed the decision to withdraw.

Edward64 08-22-2021 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU 14 (Post 3343409)
Agree 100% and I hope they don't try and scapegoat a man about to retire, whose service to this country has been impeccable. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I can't see much room for any of it to fall on his shoulders.


Specifically about the past 2-3 weeks ... I don't know how much blame should go to him but doubt it is one individual. It is a failure of intelligence, failure to process it properly, failure to mitigate the different risks etc. I can easily believe Biden got bad/no/contradictory advice but bottom line is he ultimately owns what has happened in the past 2-3 weeks. Not Trump.

The whole story will come out in a month or two. We should get a holistic view on what happened, timeline on things, who made what decision, who knew what when etc. So I'll reserve judgement on who (in addition to Biden) gets the blame. But yeah, some heads should fall.

But from what I remember, cities and territories were falling quickly the 1-2 weeks before Kabul. I think we were doing airstrikes as I recall Taliban was saying "stop them or else".

So there was plenty of warning for 1-2 weeks for the US to get their act together and at least prevent the Kabul FUBAR right now. Khandahar fell 2 or 3 days before. There was warning to get US citizens out of there.

Looking forward to a better week for Biden tomorrow and hope the US seems more organized. He's looking pretty weak in this crisis, also the military, and our inability to protect US citizens is really bad.

Major albatross for the next 3.5 years. This is much worse than Jimmy Carter's failed rescue. This is on par with (and arguable worse than) Marines at Lebanon or Somalia. And it can easily get worse if the Taliban wants it to be.

Flasch186 08-22-2021 06:56 AM

It is really just another time in the fountain of the disintegration of our standing in the world. Trump clearly threw a lot of dollars in but so did Obama and others before him. As I’ve said before I’m an interventionist so I’m always a proponent of going around and somewhat being the spine of moral high ground around the globe. For twenty years I’ve watched us try to be that sponge while also giving up on the moral high ground in practice, words yes practice no.

This is the culmination of that.

We will be unable to go and accomplish those missions anymore. We’ll be able to go intervene in easy scenarios but on more difficult landscapes we will be unwelcome while Russia and China are more so.

Hmmmmmm I’m surprised that as we’ve tapered our standing down Russia was able to equally build theirs up. It’s almost like someone or some people were saying that that was happening while trump was in office blowing Putin but I digress. It started before him (Crimea, Pakistan, Myanmar, Africa, Turkey, etc) but pres trump was the first President in my lifetime that I felt was very possibly a Manchurian candidate toeing the line as far as he could and given opportunity by a cult of gop members that literally allowed for the following out of what I mentioned above (and then some).

To the topic at hand I believe Biden deserves a lot of fault for what’s happening in Afghanistan. I think everyone and anyone could’ve foreseen what’s happening now and the last few weeks of collapse. I certainly felt like it was an easy dot connection.


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JPhillips 08-22-2021 07:30 AM

I don't think spending 20 years in a place with little strategic value is a good reason to question the resolve of the USA.

Edward64 08-22-2021 07:32 AM

Nice touch taking an iconic pic with the US equipment. I'm sure the Taliban will milk this for all its worth.

Taliban soldiers MOCK iconic World War II image of American Marines raising flag on Iwo Jima | Daily Mail Online


Edward64 08-22-2021 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3343448)
And it can easily get worse if the Taliban wants it to be.


Another headache for Biden. ISIS can do what the Taliban may be unwilling to do.

Quote:

Two defense officials told NBC News that they are tracking specific threats from ISIS against the Kabul airport and those trying to get to the airport. With that, alternative ways are being developed to get people to the evacuation zone, the officials explained.

“We are executing an alternate path,” a defense official told NBC News. This includes gathering smaller groups of people at specific locations and then moving them to the airport in intervals. The goal is to get them there safely and make it easier to get through the gate quickly with smaller groups of people.

GrantDawg 08-22-2021 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3343445)
The polling was done Aug 13-16. The Taliban entered Kabul Aug 15. So it was done in the height of the confusion. More polling to come but not a good sign for Biden.

Poll: Support for Afghanistan withdrawal plummets as Taliban seize control - POLITICO

This is interesting given that:

GrantDawg 08-22-2021 10:48 AM

This is an interesting thread on why the pull-out in Afghanistan had to happen as it did, and what the cost of staying likely would have been.

Flasch186 08-22-2021 10:57 AM

I would’ve supported an overwhelming surge in advance of pulling out


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sterlingice 08-22-2021 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3343463)
This is an interesting thread on why the pull-out in Afghanistan had to happen as it did, and what the cost of staying likely would have been.
The Taliban would have been energized by America reneging on Trump’s deal. American troops would obviously still be in the line of fire. To be sure, the Taliban wouldn't have made the gains it did, but America would almost certainly have had to put more forces in to respond. 8/18
— Chris Chivvis (@CChivvis) August 16, 2021


I found this one the most interesting




SI

Brian Swartz 08-22-2021 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg
This is interesting given that:


Another factor in this is that we tend to 'get over' foreign policy judgements, postively and negatively, quite quickly. Domestic policy tends to be a lot more important to the average voter. For this to be even relevant in '22/'24, there would need to be continuing bad news from Afghanistan involving support of new terrorist attacks on US targets etc. I think.

JPhillips 08-22-2021 12:48 PM

8000 out yesterday and 30000 out in August.

It's not the failure the media wants it to be.

Vegas Vic 08-22-2021 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3343453)
Nice touch taking an iconic pic with the US equipment. I'm sure the Taliban will milk this for all its worth.


Here's another one of the #1 most wanted Al Qaeda terrorist, Khalil Haqqani, posing with a U.S. assault rifle in Kabul, along with Taliban troops wearing American uniforms with night vision goggles. Haggani has a $5 million bounty on his head. Please note that there is no connection between Al Qaeda and the Taliban.


Flasch186 08-22-2021 01:46 PM

$5mm doesn't move the needle internationally.

PilotMan 08-22-2021 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 3343478)
$5mm doesn't move the needle internationally.


Five million to kill the most wanted terrorist.....5 million to prove to the Pillow guy that his data was bunk.....Maybe the terrorist can prove it and pay off his bounty?

JPhillips 08-23-2021 10:53 AM

Up to 30K evacuated since August 14.

albionmoonlight 08-23-2021 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3343538)
Up to 30K evacuated since August 14.


And no casualties. Zero. Nada. Not one American troop.

This has become quiet competence and not sexy violence, so the media will move on. But I am so very happy for the folks who are getting to safety, even if no one notices.

I remain impressed by this administration. And I remain upset at 20 years of mostly pointless war aided and abetted by both parties. Still lots of soul searching that this country needs to do.

PilotMan 08-23-2021 01:52 PM

There's no incentive for the Taliban to make it harder for people to evacuate. So one would hope that casualties would be kept at zero.

RainMaker 08-23-2021 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3343475)
Here's another one of the #1 most wanted Al Qaeda terrorist, Khalil Haqqani, posing with a U.S. assault rifle in Kabul, along with Taliban troops wearing American uniforms with night vision goggles. Haggani has a $5 million bounty on his head. Please note that there is no connection between Al Qaeda and the Taliban.


Haqqani is not Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is not a general term for any Islamic terrorists/insurgent/fighter. It has a specific designation and set of beliefs.

One of the issues with the withdrawal and gauging public support is how little the public knows about the region and the players in it.

RainMaker 08-23-2021 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3343539)
And no casualties. Zero. Nada. Not one American troop.

This has become quiet competence and not sexy violence, so the media will move on. But I am so very happy for the folks who are getting to safety, even if no one notices.

I remain impressed by this administration. And I remain upset at 20 years of mostly pointless war aided and abetted by both parties. Still lots of soul searching that this country needs to do.


The media that cheerleaded the war and got just about everything about it wrong is not going to give in easily on this one. I think the NY Times even ran an op-ed about how we should stay forever and the lives lost isn't a big deal because we can take all their riches.

JonInMiddleGA 08-23-2021 03:24 PM

I have a simple (okay, maybe not so) question. It's a neutral question looking for a factual answer, may lightning strike me if I have the slightest political intent. I sincerely just want to know the answer to something that Googling really didn't turn up, hardly even vague attempts at answers could I find.

The U.S. citizens still in Afghanistan -- be that 3k, 10k, 15k, whatever the number is -- who the fuck are they? As in, why the fuck were they in Afghanistan to be stuck there in the first place?

Yeah, sure, there's a lot of categories but surely they fall into at least 2-3 broad categories that would account for half or more ... right?

Are they business people? industrial workers? Relief/charity folks? Religious missionaries? Thrillseekers? Tourists?

Zero politics intended here, I just don't know a better thread to stick the question in. Anybody seen an actual answer(s) to this?

Lathum 08-23-2021 04:13 PM

I do not have an answer but my guest would be military contractors

sterlingice 08-23-2021 04:14 PM

I was wondering that, too. I mean, I figure there's some students and some support staff (the translators we keep hearing about - but it's not like there were 50K translators to start with). If you're a tourist or businessperson, you're getting the hell out of dodge as soon as you can - but I assume most have already left. Religious missionaries may not come out even if you could. I dunno.

SI

GrantDawg 08-23-2021 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3343584)
I do not have an answer but my guest would be military contractors

Some are (probably most). Others are either business people or aid workers. There were business interest other than military in Afghanistan, and there have been large numbers of aid workers that have been working there through the war.

GrantDawg 08-23-2021 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3343559)
Haqqani is not Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is not a general term for any Islamic terrorists/insurgent/fighter. It has a specific designation and set of beliefs.

One of the issues with the withdrawal and gauging public support is how little the public knows about the region and the players in it.

Though they have trained with Al-Qaeda, they are not Al-Qaeda. They are religious-nationalist that are basically the terrorist arm of the Taliban. They wanted the west out of Afghanistan, and they are getting their wish.

JPhillips 08-23-2021 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3343574)
I have a simple (okay, maybe not so) question. It's a neutral question looking for a factual answer, may lightning strike me if I have the slightest political intent. I sincerely just want to know the answer to something that Googling really didn't turn up, hardly even vague attempts at answers could I find.

The U.S. citizens still in Afghanistan -- be that 3k, 10k, 15k, whatever the number is -- who the fuck are they? As in, why the fuck were they in Afghanistan to be stuck there in the first place?

Yeah, sure, there's a lot of categories but surely they fall into at least 2-3 broad categories that would account for half or more ... right?

Are they business people? industrial workers? Relief/charity folks? Religious missionaries? Thrillseekers? Tourists?

Zero politics intended here, I just don't know a better thread to stick the question in. Anybody seen an actual answer(s) to this?


Probably a good chunk with dual citizenship.

JonInMiddleGA 08-23-2021 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice (Post 3343585)
(the translators we keep hearing about - but it's not like there were 50K translators to start with).


I thought the translators we keep hearing about were locals though; i.e. Afghan citizens who worked for/with the U.S.

I could be wrong for all I can prove, but that's how I've always interpreted that particular category.

JPhillips 08-23-2021 06:44 PM

48K evacuated since August 14.

miami_fan 08-23-2021 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3343574)
I have a simple (okay, maybe not so) question. It's a neutral question looking for a factual answer, may lightning strike me if I have the slightest political intent. I sincerely just want to know the answer to something that Googling really didn't turn up, hardly even vague attempts at answers could I find.

The U.S. citizens still in Afghanistan -- be that 3k, 10k, 15k, whatever the number is -- who the fuck are they? As in, why the fuck were they in Afghanistan to be stuck there in the first place?

Yeah, sure, there's a lot of categories but surely they fall into at least 2-3 broad categories that would account for half or more ... right?

Are they business people? industrial workers? Relief/charity folks? Religious missionaries? Thrillseekers? Tourists?

Zero politics intended here, I just don't know a better thread to stick the question in. Anybody seen an actual answer(s) to this?


I hope this does not violate the zero politics decree. This article may give some insight.

U.S. Contractors in Afghanistan Are Hiring Amid Withdrawal

If one of these companies did not have me on the first thing smoking out of Kabul by the time the Taliban was within 100 miles of Kabul, I might be demanding that the U.S. gov't get me out of there instead.

PilotMan 08-23-2021 08:29 PM

Heading to Germany as we speak to bring a flight back to DC as part of all this.

sterlingice 08-23-2021 08:31 PM

Ok, that's pretty cool.

SI

Thomkal 08-23-2021 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3343607)
Heading to Germany as we speak to bring a flight back to DC as part of all this.


awesome

JonInMiddleGA 08-23-2021 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miami_fan (Post 3343602)
I hope this does not violate the zero politics decree. This article may give some insight.

U.S. Contractors in Afghanistan Are Hiring Amid Withdrawal

If one of these companies did not have me on the first thing smoking out of Kabul by the time the Taliban was within 100 miles of Kabul, I might be demanding that the U.S. gov't get me out of there instead.


It absolutely fits, because it's the first place I've seen put a hard number on anything
Quote:

Department of Defense currently employs more than 16,000 contractors in Afghanistan, of whom 6,147 are U.S. citizens

Minus however many got out in the meantime, that's roughly half (or more) of the U.S. citizens most coverage sites as being still in country.

CarterNMA 08-23-2021 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3343607)
Heading to Germany as we speak to bring a flight back to DC as part of all this.


Good luck, PilotMan!

If by "DC" you mean Dulles or Reagan, I hope your layover is short so you can get home. But if you mean BWI and you have a long layover, I think it'd be cool if the FOFCers in the area (cuervo, QuickSand, me, others?) could take you out for a drink and a meal.

RainMaker 08-23-2021 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3343574)
I have a simple (okay, maybe not so) question. It's a neutral question looking for a factual answer, may lightning strike me if I have the slightest political intent. I sincerely just want to know the answer to something that Googling really didn't turn up, hardly even vague attempts at answers could I find.

The U.S. citizens still in Afghanistan -- be that 3k, 10k, 15k, whatever the number is -- who the fuck are they? As in, why the fuck were they in Afghanistan to be stuck there in the first place?

Yeah, sure, there's a lot of categories but surely they fall into at least 2-3 broad categories that would account for half or more ... right?

Are they business people? industrial workers? Relief/charity folks? Religious missionaries? Thrillseekers? Tourists?

Zero politics intended here, I just don't know a better thread to stick the question in. Anybody seen an actual answer(s) to this?


Mostly contractors. And those contractors are mostly boring ones that do jobs like build roads, bridges, cell towers, buildings, etc. Lots of IT and network engineers there too. And those people need security contractors to protect them. It's basically a country with no in-house expertise so they have to hire foreign contractors to do a lot.

When I was young I worked for a contractor in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, so I know a bit how the system works. I was blown away by how many Westerners work throughout the Middle East.

As for why? There is a ton of money in it. Way back in the early days of the war, they were paying people with marginal IT abilities $85/hour to work in Afghanistan (this was before the Iraq War). And you could essentially work as much as you wanted to and you are taxed much less. I imagine that rate has only gone up. So some young guy who isn't married can spend a year over there and have his school loans paid off and a nice down payment for a house by the time he gets home. All while doing something they would have been paid maybe $20/hour here in the states.

I has the opportunity to work in other parts of the region (not Afghanistan specifically), but passed. The extra money wasn't worth the risk in my opinion.

CarterNMA 08-23-2021 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3343574)
I have a simple (okay, maybe not so) question. It's a neutral question looking for a factual answer, may lightning strike me if I have the slightest political intent. I sincerely just want to know the answer to something that Googling really didn't turn up, hardly even vague attempts at answers could I find.

The U.S. citizens still in Afghanistan -- be that 3k, 10k, 15k, whatever the number is -- who the fuck are they? As in, why the fuck were they in Afghanistan to be stuck there in the first place?

Yeah, sure, there's a lot of categories but surely they fall into at least 2-3 broad categories that would account for half or more ... right?

Are they business people? industrial workers? Relief/charity folks? Religious missionaries? Thrillseekers? Tourists?

Zero politics intended here, I just don't know a better thread to stick the question in. Anybody seen an actual answer(s) to this?


I saw something on CNN earlier about a group of Afghans who'd become U.S. citizens were back in Kabul for wedding. I'm sure there could be a lot more doing the normal "August is vacation time the whole world round" thing and visiting family?

PilotMan 08-23-2021 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarterNMA (Post 3343614)
Good luck, PilotMan!

If by "DC" you mean Dulles or Reagan, I hope your layover is short so you can get home. But if you mean BWI and you have a long layover, I think it'd be cool if the FOFCers in the area (cuervo, QuickSand, me, others?) could take you out for a drink and a meal.


I would love to take you and anyone else up on that one day. Coming into Dulles, but not staying long. Hopefully one day we can make that work. I think I've met about 6 guys from here over the years.

RainMaker 08-23-2021 09:41 PM

Just to add when it comes to exact numbers, I think it's really tough to know. The government keeps some hard numbers on who they've hired, but it's not exact since they aren't the ones paying the individual contractors. So they hire a company to build and maintain some cell towers, but they don't know if the company has 200 or 400 people working on that.

Also there are so many layers between the job and the company. For instance, I was essentially working for Raytheon. But my checks were paid by another company in the States that hired computer programmers/IT. And that company was being contracted by a foreign company (I think out of Panama) that's job was placing foreign contractors with companies (guess you could call them a headhunter). And then I don't know what came on top of that, but it eventually lands at Raytheon.

So I don't know if that's just a huge bureaucracy or a way to protect themselves from taxes and liability. But you'd need some really deep forensic accounting to figure out who is who in these countries.

Flasch186 08-23-2021 09:44 PM

BSo weird. ThiBS guy in jail for the 1/6 judge told the judge that he waBS duped by Q. Then he waBS caught on the Internet looking at Q like crap.

I’m confuBSed…. He BSaid he waBS duped but then went back to their BStuff even in breaking the court’BS ruleBS BSet on him.

What iBS the real dude thinking? He BSaid one thing but did another…

I’m ConfuBSed. How can we know the real intentionBS?

https://apple.news/AymzGK4NaQ-u3xRGe3bvDhg

Look we all know what the gaslighting , obfuscation, and twisting of statistics is for don’t we?


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JPhillips 08-23-2021 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3343618)
I would love to take you and anyone else up on that one day. Coming into Dulles, but not staying long. Hopefully one day we can make that work. I think I've met about 6 guys from here over the years.


If you ever end up at Stewart in Newburgh...

sterlingice 08-23-2021 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 3343620)
BSo weird. ThiBS guy in jail for the 1/6 judge told the judge that he waBS duped by Q. Then he waBS caught on the Internet looking at Q like crap.

I’m confuBSed…. He BSaid he waBS duped but then went back to their BStuff even in breaking the court’BS ruleBS BSet on him.

What iBS the real dude thinking? He BSaid one thing but did another…

I’m ConfuBSed. How can we know the real intentionBS?

Iowa man charged in Capitol riot, caught violating release terms, asks not to be sent back to jail

Look we all know what the gaslighting , obfuscation, and twisting of statistics is for don’t we?


I like how his lawyer tries to move the goalposts, too:

Quote:

"His violation, though a serious misplacement of this court's trust, was not an action that in any way endangers the community," he said. "Mr. Jensen asks this court to accept his apology and allow him to remain in home incarceration, with a sanction, if this court deems such is appropriate."

It's, of course, not about endangering the community. It's that he was lying out of his ass, pretending to be contrite, to get out of more jail time:

Quote:

Phillips wrote that Jensen's swift violation confirms what the government and the judge suspected all along: "that Jensen's alleged disavowal of QAnon was just an act."


SI

Flasch186 08-23-2021 10:08 PM

Couldn’t be

He said what he said to the judge so at the time he must’ve meant it authentically


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cuervo72 08-23-2021 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarterNMA (Post 3343614)
Good luck, PilotMan!

If by "DC" you mean Dulles or Reagan, I hope your layover is short so you can get home. But if you mean BWI and you have a long layover, I think it'd be cool if the FOFCers in the area (cuervo, QuickSand, me, others?) could take you out for a drink and a meal.


I might be getting brave enough in my old age to consider such a thing.

Oddly enough I have actually encountered an FOFCer at an airport before. Family was coming back from a vacation in Arizona and we flew back from LV. Spotted Quik*, who happened to be coming back on the same flight.


* We had met before, so this wasn't some weird stalking thing. At least, not completely.

Brian Swartz 08-24-2021 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186
I’m confuBSed…. He BSaid he waBS duped but then went back to their BStuff even in breaking the court’BS ruleBS BSet on him.

What iBS the real dude thinking? He BSaid one thing but did another…

I’m ConfuBSed. How can we know the real intentionBS?


We have no need to know the intentions. He was given conditions to follow as part of his release and chose to violate one of them. There appropriately are likely to be consequences for doing that.

Flasch186 08-24-2021 05:39 AM

The Biden Presidency - 2020
 
Yes yes no need to figure out if someone’s saying something that is BS. No need to question whether or not someone might say something that is totally BS when it proves your BS wrong within one page of a forum thread. Instead of saying yeah I guess I am wrong on that one you simply say, “meh, I’m not wrong because you shouldn’t think about the fucking point from before…. Poof it’s gone so thus I am not wrong!” Same with your twisting of data and stats. You’re not wrong because we’re not looking at it right… all of us. Such BS dude.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

miami_fan 08-24-2021 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3343619)
Just to add when it comes to exact numbers, I think it's really tough to know. The government keeps some hard numbers on who they've hired, but it's not exact since they aren't the ones paying the individual contractors. So they hire a company to build and maintain some cell towers, but they don't know if the company has 200 or 400 people working on that.

Also there are so many layers between the job and the company. For instance, I was essentially working for Raytheon. But my checks were paid by another company in the States that hired computer programmers/IT. And that company was being contracted by a foreign company (I think out of Panama) that's job was placing foreign contractors with companies (guess you could call them a headhunter). And then I don't know what came on top of that, but it eventually lands at Raytheon.

So I don't know if that's just a huge bureaucracy or a way to protect themselves from taxes and liability. But you'd need some really deep forensic accounting to figure out who is who in these countries.


I agree with all of this.

Ksyrup 08-24-2021 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3343618)
I would love to take you and anyone else up on that one day. Coming into Dulles, but not staying long. Hopefully one day we can make that work. I think I've met about 6 guys from here over the years.


Since my older daughter is trying to start her own life up there and my other daughter is considering NKU, we might have a chance to meet at some point.

PilotMan 08-24-2021 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 3343634)
Since my older daughter is trying to start her own life up there and my other daughter is considering NKU, we might have a chance to meet at some point.


I don't even have to travel for that one, that's easy. Absolutely, hit me up whenever you're heading this way with time. I've got one in Richmond, but he comes home almost every weekend, so we're not going that way very much rn.

Brian Swartz 08-24-2021 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186
Instead of saying yeah I guess I am wrong on that one you simply say, “meh, I’m not wrong because you shouldn’t think about the fucking point from before…. Poof it’s gone so thus I am not wrong!” Same with your twisting of data and stats.


I've been wrong and said so on a number of occasions on this forum in the past. It's absurd to claim I should say that though just because the consensus goes another direction. I'm not going to abandon logic and fundamental basics of evaluating data just because other people think I should. There were times when the consensus held that the earth was the center of the cosmos, that there were no particles smaller than an atom, etc. Modern polling is strewn with examples of concepts where the majority of people are just flat-out wrong. People disagreeing with a stance doesn't at all demonstrate that stance is incorrect.

molson 08-24-2021 09:08 AM

I endorse grabbing a beer with PilotMan.


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