damn hard stat to find, I know the kid has some speed though, but I'm looking it up.

:D

ahh its too much work to find, but hes had at least a few

6 infield hits, 1 via bunt in 99 PAs

Wow, one of the more improbable Phillies victories in awhile. Down four runs in the bottom of the ninth, Stairs hits a homer to bring it to 7-4, then Rollins and Utley get on base for Howard to hit a game-tying bomb to center-field. Ibanez hits a double on the very next pitch, intentional walk to Werth, and base-hits by Feliz and the game winning hit by Bako. Great win (glad I didn't stop watching).

Florida down 5-1 too. If we can win tomorrow, and Arizona can hang on tonight and win tomorrow, the Phils will have a five-game lead heading into the All-Star break.

Not bad considering a little over a week ago we had lost 13-of-18 and had three teams less than two games behind us.

Wow.

Matt Craps is pretty good about throwing BP fastballs on non save situations.

I had put the game on mute, as I was disgusted mainly with the terrible pitching by the Phillies tonight.

I stepped outside for the bottom of the ninth, and saw that Stairs hit a solo homer to make it 7-4. Then saw that Howard had a chance, and low and behold, Howard crushed one.

I came inside all giddy(in disbelief mostly), then estatic when the unlikely hero, Paul Bako?!? wins it with a single.

I always watch the Phillies 'til the end whenever they are losing, cause I never know when they'll pull out an amazing rally in the ninth inning.

dola,

Hamels was awful early, but settled down some later.
3 homers early didn't help though.

Just saw the Phils-Pirates highlights on MLB Tonight on MLBN. Very nice

SI

Dear Pirates,

Fuck You.

Sincerely,
Larry

Nice win for the O's tonight, too

(do we have any O's fans here?)

SI

Dear Georgia.

Fuck you for producing Matt Capps.

He's like Todd Jones without a pron stache.

I follow the O's and the Nats...not as closely as I do my Red Sox, but I do try to support and know what's going on for my hometown teams (and as long as they're not playing Boston, they're who I cheer for).

:)

/tk

They are the team I pull for in the American League.

Awesome. Can't say enough about this Angels team. They have had injury and death attack them through out this year. They missed three-fifths of their rotation through two months, and now they're missing perhaps their three best hitters. Their bullpen has been a shadow of what it was in the past.

Despite all that, they sweep the Yankees and are certain to finish the first half in first place in the AL West.

Another choke job by the Braves.

thanks Angels!!

Heh...obviously, helping you guys isn't high on the Angels' to-do list. That said, you're welcome! :D

heheeh

Just got back from the Phillies game. Had an absolute blast.

Anyone watching the futures game?

Exciting finish to the Futures Game. Too bad it was shortened to 7 innings though.

Sean Marshall just played Left Field for a batter in the cubs game. it was awesome.

So Jim Riggleman gets to play the Dick Motta role this year, huh? Find the guy who has tons of experience managing crappy teams and give him the crappy team who just fired their manager. Enjoy!

Well, that was a banner weekend

1) The GM made a really stupid ass trade that makes everyone question if he even knows what he's doing. You don't take on someone else's payroll problem *and* give them prospects for doing it. As has increasingly become the cliche this weekend, we needed a SS before the trade and we still have a need for a SS after the trade.

2) Meche is now officially hurt, tho he's actually been hurt ever since being thrown 115 and 132 back to back.

3) Greinke's great season gets bypassed for Halladay to start the All Star Game. Yes, Halladay would be deserving in any other season but Greinke has been better this season. By no measure is Halladay better except less losses and a couple more BB in over 100 IP.

Halladay: 10-3 2.85ERA 123.0IP 106K 17BB 1.10WHIP 2.86FIP 4.2 WAR 39.0VORP
Greinke: 10-5 2.12ERA 127.1IP 129K 21BB 1.08WHIP 1.97FIP 5.8 WAR 45.5VORP


4) Our GM was on the radio this morning, repeatedly talking about his payroll constraints for the first time. It's a problem- we get it and we've heard it. But you can't come to us, as a fanbase, and expect that to wash as an excuse right now when you just added payroll.

SI

I can't believe the Royals traded prospects and took on Betancourt's salary. He's terrible but I didn't realize how terrible until I read Poshanski column about him.

FWIW Joe Maddon said he gave Holladay the AL starting nod because of his "body of work," which I guess is Maddon's way of saying Halladay's been a top flight starter longer than Greinke. I wished Greinke would get the start, especially because Halladay is likely to switch leagues very soon after the game.

Between Posnanski referencing Neifi and Rany referencing Berroa, it's just been a traumatizing trade and weekend for Royals fans.

SI

My friend calls me and says, "I have HR derby tickets".. I say.. nice! ..expecting a free ticket.

He tells me you can go, the cost is $205. Damn you!

Think I'll stay home and watch it on TV.. :)

Well, I don't think firing Acta really makes a difference at this point in the season, particularly if you're pulling in someone already in the clubhouse. But, we'll see. With the record the Nats have, what does it really matter?

I think it's pretty stupid to fire Acta now. What does it accomplish?

Appeasing the critics is it. But it does nothing, IMO. Even if they have a 50% better record, does that really mean it's because Acta is gone? I doubt it. I think the manager DOES play a role, but to fire a manager who was out at the end of the year (his contract was up) and replace him with his bench coach, that just seems silly.

I guess it gives the impression that something is being done to turn the franchise around when, in my opinion, nothing is actually being done. Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports pointed out in a column today that until Rizzo and Kasten are given more power the franchise will continue to drift aimlessly. Washington has many long term deep rooted problems that stem from the front office, problems which could never be corrected by firing the on-field manager.

Curtis Granderson is probably my favorite MLB player, but why in the heck is he in the All-Star game? Inge should have been in before him.

You're gonna be real excited when you watch the HR derby tonight.

Yeah, Inge is more out of his element in the derby than Damien Easly was in it back in the early 2000's. I mean he has power, but not like Prince and Puljos, etc.

Rosenthal kinda bugs me. But, anyway...

Having said that, is that all the Lerners fault? I'm not saying they're not a problem, but can those deep rooted problems be cured in 2.5 years?

LOL..........As much as Zack has struggled personally with media and fan attention, he can be a quote machine at times..........

I would have crushed it, LOL!!

He's only had 18 plate appearances in the major leagues, but he does have two doubles and a homerun in those appearances. He's by far our best hitting pitcher during intraleague games. He's got a pretty good swing.

But yeah, the dripping sarcasm is a regular feature of Zack interviews. I've never missed a post-game show after a Greinke start for that reason. I watched one post-game interview where Olivo was standing next to Greinke after a win and the interviewer ask Zack how important Olivo was to keeping the opposition to 3 hits. Zack proceeded to say that Olivo was personally responsible for two of the three hits based on the pitches that Olivo called. He said he was only personally responsible for one of the hits.

That SI article about Greinke talked about when he started having his issues a few years back, he seriously considered (not that the team agreed) dropping pitching and becoming a hitter, to the point where he was sometimes preoccupied by it. Sounds like he's still pretty enthusiastic about it.

He still takes batting practice quite a bit even outside of intraleague play. He was a helluva hitter in high school. Honestly, he'd be a great NL pitcher for that reason. He'd fill the 9 hole very well.

You definitely know when Greinke steps into the batting cage. The early arrivers love it.

Ok, is this intentional? You did it twice now. :)

Born and raised baby. I'm displaced out here in Giants land, and I've been following them for a few years. I've become attached, but I'm still an Oriole fan to the bone.

Pedro Martinez is a Philly. Or is it Phillie?

Phillies sign 3-time Cy Young winner Martinez - Boston.com

I think one of the articles posted here earlier in the year had the story about Zack showing Alex Gordon a video of his home run and saying "do that" or something to that effect.

SI

Seems like a pretty cool fan base from what I've seen. Camden has become my new favorite place to see a game (at least in the non-Wrigley/Fenway category) after going a couple of months ago. I still haven't seen one at Fenway but Wrigley is its own beast and I imagine Fenway is the same.

I'll be visiting Baltimore again here in about a week and a half

SI

I really like Greinke as a player but he can be a little strange.

So does the NL suck or what? This is a long All Star Game dry spell.

Some comments by Kevin Goldstein about Bryce Harper that caught my eye.


If he's limited to 1B then his value goes waaaaaaaaaaay down.

Saw this on Red Reporter and wanted to make sure the Cincy contingent knew:

At least Olli hasn't walked anyone yet

Just a heads up.

Sweet way to start out the second half.

Not sure why but one thing bugged me. Ibanez in his post game interview was asked about Ryan Howard's homerun and he says something along the line of "when he is hitting the Phillies do well". Something bugged me about that. Does that mean that he doesn't feel like part of the team? I would think that a player would refer to his team as "we". If you didn't know who was being interviewed and just heard that question and response you would have thought that a member of the Marlins was being interviewed.

Probably just his personality but it makes it seem like he is an outsider.

Braves will retire Greg Maddux's number tonight in pre-game ceremonies.

He's the best I ever saw and the best I expect I'll ever see. There's no player in any sport I ever enjoyed watching more than Maddux and no player in any sport that I miss watching work more.

Maddux is my favorite player as well in addition to being the best pitcher I've ever seen.

I wonder if there will be a big crowd tonight with the ceremony and the Mets in town.

I'm a huge Maddux fan as well, even if he did put in a lot of his good years after leaving Chicago.

Maddux is definitely my favorite pitcher ever

SI

Justice got a good reception from the fans.

Maddux is too cool for ties :cool:

A casual nod after his 18 Gold Gloves are mentioned <3

First pitcher to post back to back sub 1.8 ERAs since Walter Johnson in 1918. So awesome.

Garrett Jones just went deep off Timmy for his 6th homer in two weeks. Might be worth a fantasy look.

Atlanta looks like they will win on Greg Maddux night, they are crushing the Mets 10-0 in the fifth.

Did they hold the ceremonies 6 inches off both sides of the plate? :)

I think Pedro at peak value is the best pitcher in history, but Maddux is easily top 5 all time; hell of a player, hell of a guy.

Geez. The Pirates and Giants are trying to underscore each other. Pitchers duels are only fun til the starters come out

Maddux is amazing but I'm not sure top 5


Koufax
Big Train Johnson
Ryan
Page
Pedro
Seaver
Lefty Grove
etc..


Again, I loved watching Maddux, but I think top 5 is a stretch

I'm not sure Nolan belongs on that list.

no way he's top 5. top 5 of the last generation...sure okay (even then you can argue). but all time. no way

Career Leaders

Rank	Player	Adjusted ERA+
1	Mariano Rivera	199
2	Pedro Martínez	154
3	Lefty Grove	148
4	Walter Johnson	146
	Dan Quisenberry
	Hoyt Wilhelm
	Smoky Joe Wood

even if you want to remove mariano for not being a starter, maddux still doesn't sneak onto that list

Nolan Ryan lol

Nolan Ryan isn't top 50. Most overrated pitcher, by far. Maddux is so much better than him it isn't funny.

Jones!

Fucking Giants offense. Rich Aurillia sucks.

No, that was the Eric Gregg memorial.

Maddux's ERA+ was hurt by his longevity. I don't think evaluating pitchers is quite so simple. But if you would rather have had Quisenberry, Wilhelm, and Smokey Joe Wood than Maddux that's up to you.


It was Eric Gregg who fucked the Braves in 1997. I didn't shed any tears when he died.

Wedge manages the Indians.

Why can't the Giants ever beat the Pirates...They are who we thought they were!!!

Pujols knocks two more out!

i'll give you that he did have multiple top ERA+ seasons in the top 15 or so...which is impressive.

If you want to argue that his ERA+ was hurt by his longevity though then you can't argue that his win total was a positive then.

you either have to embrace the longevity or reject it.

DT - just so I make sure I understand your argument - Dan Quisenberry > Greg Maddux?

:jawdrop:

maybe not quisenberry...but smokey joe wood...sure. like i said with taking mariano out, i think you have to remove relievers from the equation

Joe Wood Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Are you sure you believe your own argument? No chance that his pitching for Boston is somehow clouding your objectivity on this one? I know wins are not a popular stat with the baseball math club, but only two seasons with more than 15 wins (OK, 3 with 15 if you toss in 1915 where he hits it on the nose) in an era of 4 man rotations, no relievers, etc, etc?

There are plenty of names that I would at least entertain as equal/better than Maddux, but I'm struggling with some of the ones that you are providing so far.

Rivera is obviously a first ballot 90% plus guy, right?

Maddux was so consistently awesome.

The pitchers of our generation are Randy Johnson, Maddux, Pedro, Clemens

I'd obviously want Mariano closing for me as well.

FUCK...i just had a great long post typed up and my browser ate it

let me redo my post since you're asking

If Maddux retires in 2002, he has a 146 ERA+ with 273 wins. Nobody in their right mind would argue that Quisenberry or Wood were better than Maddux in that scenario. So you're basically punishing him for not retiring that point, which is kinda silly.

Career Leaders - ERA+ (starters, 15+ years, post-1900)

Pedro Martinez - 17yrs
Lefty Grove - 17yrs
Walter Johnson - 21yrs
Roger Clemens *steroids* - 24yrs
John Franco - 21yrs
Randy Johnson - 22yrs
Grover Cleveland - 20yrs
Christy Mathewson - 17yrs
Whitey Ford - 16yrs
Maddux - 23yrs


Career Leaders - WHIP (starters, 15+ years, post-1900)

Pedro Martinez - 17yrs
Christy Mathewson - 17yrs
Walter Johnson - 21yrs
Babe Adams - 19yrs
Juan Marichal - 16yrs
Chief Bender - 16yrs
Eddie Plank - 17yrs
Tom Seaver - 20yrs
Grover Cleveland - 20yrs
Catfish Hunter - 15yrs
Curt Schilling - 20yrs
Bret Saberhagen - 16yrs
Fergie Jenkins - 19yrs
Don Sutton - 23yrs
Greg Maddux - 23yrs

I'll give you k/bb ratio - he's in the top 20 in that for his career (including relievers, who make up a lot of it), at #19 (behind Schilling, Pedro, Sabrehagen, Mussina as starters with significant durations of career).

So he's #5 in terms of 20+ year starters since 1900 in ERA+ (excluding steroid-boy Clemens), and #6 in WHIP.

Maybe he's top-5 if you qualify it as "started for 15+ seasons."

see my list above. quisenberry is NA as a reliever. Wood you could say was better over a shorter career, but see my list above for guys of similar career durations (20+ years) who were better.

not saying maddux is crap, but he's not the greatest either

Maddux was fantastic, but this argument just reminds me of my(/crapshoot's/etc) Ahab. Regardless if he comes back this year or in the future, can we just agree that any voter who does not induct Pedro 1st ballot loses all future voting privileges? It's absurd enough he lost that MVP for 1 NY voter not including him top 10 and even more absurd he wasn't really considered the other 3 years in that stretch.

yes

Huh? What an arbitrary rule. Why can't you be impressed by the very high level he played at in his prime as well as his longevity?

my point is "well you can't say he won a lot of games and pitched for a ton of years at a high level" and then ignore his ERA+ because you say it's penalizing him for not retiring when it started to slip.

i think you're misunderstanding my point. i have no problem with either of the things you said.

No, I understand your point, I just don't think it's very logical. His career ERA+ is obviously hurt by his longevity. If you're comparing him to, say, a guy that pitched 10 years from 24-34, then that's an apples to oranges comparison. Why isn't it a valid point to say that he had great apples and oranges?

If you want to take what Maddux was from 24-34 to make your point that's fair, but it's not fair to take what he was from 24-34, and then only the stuff after 34 that supports your argument.

exactly. if you want to judge him on only part of his career then you can't cherry-pick and say "i only want to include his dominance over this 10 years but i want to include all of his wins from his whole career."

that's why on my list i was comparing him to other pitchers who pitched either 15+ years or 20+ years (when I made the "top 5" sublists of the larger list). Those are his peers, in every sense of the word.

i'm not. i'm comparing him to other guys who pitched either 15+ years, or if you want to be more extreme, 20+ years.

It was just an example, I haven't even looked at the specifics. I'm just saying how is it not valid to say: "Well this guys 15 year prime stacks up to this guys 15 year career like this, but this guy also played 5 more years and did this." How is the the "also" not relevant at all to a discussion of the player's career?

I just see this as Boston fans using Maddux durability against him. It's not his fault Pedro was hurt the last few years. It's like people who think Gail Sayers is one of the best RB ever. Well, he played what, 6 seasons? Yet guys like Sanders, Smith, etc played for 10 + years at an insanely high level because they could stay healthy. Don't hold it against a player because he can be durable and still pitch well, as compared to a guy who can't.

huh?

i have no issues with Maddux. I'm just saying - you have to define better what criteria you are using when you use superlatives. do you want to compare his prime-period (if so define a # of years). Do you want to compare his whole career? Do you want to combine the two? What do you want?

More like you were attempting to define the criteria as either prime or career and denying the validity of combining the two in any way. ;) As for what is the best measure: who knows? I guess that's where the subjectivity comes in.

no, i think you can combine the two.

i'm just saying you can't cherry pick and say "i want the ERA+ of his prime but the win total of his entire career"

Number of seasons with 33+ starts:

Maddux - 19 (might have been 21 without the strike)
Martinez - 3 (might have been 5 without the strike)

Martinez was great, he'll be a first-ballot HOFer, but his fragility does hurt him in my eyes. I'd still put him in my all-time top ten but behind Maddux for sure.


Both a player's peak and their overall career are factors for me.

Actually no, I totally think it's Smotlz' fault that Pedro was injured.