Ahhhh, a Star Wars thread. How fun.

Yes, and as I said, I believe the IMDB score is a better metric than the Rotten Tomatoes user score. I won't change that argument if the IMDB score continues to fall. You seem to be tying what you or I think about the movie to what metric we should think is accurate.

You kinda did by trying to counter the RT audience score (which I used as an example of divided reception to the film) with the Cinemascore and IMDB score. Even said it was was weird that it was so different and then indicated that general audiences may be more positive than Star Wars die hards and that explains the RT audience score.

No internet poll has any reliability.

Cinemascore is the a market research firm that polls people at the box office, has been around for 30 years, and is utilized by people in the business and people who report on the business. The A-F scores reported there trend higher than the equivalent ratings or ratings from critics you'd see on internet sites, because I think those who enjoy picking apart movies and explaining their flaws are over-represented on the internet - the average moviegoer is much more forgiving and much happier to go the movies and be entertained in a simpler way (though Suburbicon still got a D-.) And of course, unlike critics (and some Star Wars fans), these numbers are going to be skewed by the fact that most people are only going to go to movies they expect to like in the first place. Star Wars got an A over the weekend.

https://www.cinemascore.com/

Yes, and I pointed out earlier that Phantom Menace got an A- Cinemascore ;).

No, you keep trying to tie my argument to my opinion of the movie. I've made data arguments as to why I think there's a difference in the scores. You have yet to respond to those arguments and keep coming back to my opinion of the movie and/or my opinion of people who dislike the movie.

If I'm wrong, why do you think the scores are different? Even with the falling IMDB score, its 7.9 is still way higher than the equivalent 6.6 from Rotten Tomatoes.


Yes, all three prequels got an A-. Rogue One, Force Awakens, and The Last Jedi all got an A. Eternal Sunshine has a B-. Drive (my favorite movie of 2011) got a C-. Boogie Nights got a C. I think these are good indicators of the general audience reaction to the films when they came out. They are entirely unrelated to my opinion of the films. That seems to be a foreign concept to you.

oh boy...a pissing contest about how people are demanding how good everyone else thinks the movie should be

Roger Ebert gave Revenge of the Coughing Robot three and a half stars :)

:funkychickendance:

It's exactly the opposite . I pointed out the RT audience score as an example of the mixed opinions for TLJ and you countered with Cinemascore and IMDB score. What was the point of countering the RT score? If it wasn't that you were trying to say that there aren't mixed opinions on TLJ or that only a small minority thinks TLJ wasn't good then it makes no sense to trash the RT score and say well the Cinemascore and IMDB scores are much higher.


They are calculated differently, but if you compare the IMDB score to other Star Wars IMDB scores, it is lower than the entirely of the original trilogy, and TFA. I think it is evidence that this film has more divided opinions than other SW films.

Let's not pretend that the opinion over Force Awakens wasn't hugely divided. Remember this thread? I remember a similar reaction on reddit and similar places. People have different ideas about what they want or expect from Stars Wars.

Star Wars: Episode VII - Front Office Football Central

I'm sure I'll love Episode IX, like I loved 7 and 8, and that people who want different things and who picked apart Episodes 7 and 8 will hate 9 and will express that hate loudly. (This is especially predictable with JJ Abrams back in the fold). Has there every been a blockbuster movie, especially a sequel that is part of an existing franchise where expectations and head cannon had time to develop, that had universal appeal in places were movies are discussed critically? I think that's part of the appeal of these kinds of movies, everybody has seen it, so everyone can have an opinion, and everybody can promote their idea about how they would have made the movie better. That's not my cup of tea, but there's more than one way to enjoy movies, and I've learned to filter my own experience and access to this stuff somewhat.

First of all, even if that was my argument, what does it have to do with my personal opinion of the movie? I could make the same argument if I hadn't even seen the movie or if I hated the movie. I hated the Blindside and it would be absurd for me to argue that audiences didn't love it.

I think the Rotten Tomatoes user score exaggerates the divisiveness of the film. I think Cinemascore and IMDB are better metrics. I think they do a better job of finding random samples or correcting for tainted samples. That's my argument. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on my criticism of the RT score, since IMDB still shows divisiveness (as you note below).


You're pretty much proving my point here, since I'm pointing to IMDB as a better metric, eventhough I disagree with its ranking of the SW Films.

I, for one, am happy JJ is doing the third one. I preferred Force Awakens.

I need to see Last Jedi again. A few days later, and I still feel disappointed with Luke's storyline. Would've preferred a grand showdown in Ep. IX with Luke and Rey vs. a more powerful Kylo Ren and his forces.

What do I care about your personal opinion of the movie?

Either my opinion of the movie or my opinion of people who disliked it. That's what I took from your "You kinda did" response above.

But either way, you seem oddly defensive about my criticism of the Rotten Tomatoes user score. I say oddly because you haven't even really defended the RT user score, instead just assuming I'm attacking it for reasons other than the ones I've explicitly stated and responding to that fictional argument.

I have already indicated why. Post #72 and I don't think your response in the subsequent post actually answered my concern. I could say you seem to be oddly attacking the RT user score, holding others are more indicative of the actual appeal (and insinuating the RT score had been hijacked) and then backtracking when one of those is also trending downward. Perhaps it does have something to do with your personal opinion of the film?

Post 72 isn't a defense of the RT user score, but an accusation that I'm claiming there aren't reasonable reasons to dislike the film, despite the fact that I already said there *were* reasonable reasons to dislike the film. And so I explained that even if I thought only 2, 10, 1000, or 1 million people disliked the film, it would have no bearing on whether I thought they had a reasonable reason to dislike it.


Except I have given you reasons why I think the other metrics are better indicators. Cinemascore is a random sample. IMDB has a weighted system to counteract tainted samples. You have not responded to either of those arguments.

Also, I have not backtracked once from saying IMDB is more accurate than RT. I'll still believe that no matter how low it goes on IMDB, as I said previously.

I remind you of your first post on the matter. It was nothing to do with whether RT user score was less accurate, but rather that it didn't match the far more positive Cinemascore and IMDB score (at the time):


You didn't even bring up hijacked RT scores until your 3rd post on the matter.

(and just quickly, IMDB tends to have a higher average rating for a film than RT user score: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ovies-ratings/ )

And on this post, I'll rest my point. If you want the last word, you can have it.

i was REALLY happy it wasn't jj for the second one. I think things are better when they hire other people

As someone who often goes to the ledge here and knows what it is like...

...back away from the ledge, guys. Swallow your respective prides and move on.

That's only due to Lucas and the prequels though. Other movie trilogies have worked really well with the same director - Lord of the Rings, Godfather (ok the 3rd one wasn't great), etc.

A shame, because I felt like we never really had the first word on the matter.

As a sidenote, I'm really blowing through some of these books that cover the events between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, and then between Return of Jedi and The Force Awakens. And I think these stories do work a lot better in book-form. I always found it interesting how exactly Palpatine's new Empire transitioned from its early days, where there was still a functioning Senate, and where Palpatine still kind of acted like a regular, if very conservative, leader of the executive branch, into the full dictatorship it turned into by Episode IV. Likewise, I was very interested to dig into how exactly the New Republic fucked shit up so badly after Return of the Jedi as to get themselves blown up just a few decades later.

Saw the movie Saturday, and I really enjoyed it. Then again, my opinion of The Force Awakens has changed a TON since stepping out of the theater, so time will tell how I feel about when all is said and done. I echo many of the thoughts in the thread already, but here's my list of notable things:

• The movie got progressively better as it went on. The first hour or so was pretty terrible, but the last half hour was fantastic.
• Really enjoyed the humor they injected in small bits (though the first bit with Poe and Hux went on too long). Particularly enjoyed the "I feel it!" part with Luke teasing Rey's hand with a blade of grass. There were moments where they went dangerously close to overdoing it, but I think they hit the sweet spot for me here.
• Thought the scene with Leia flying through space was absolutely atrocious, and nearly had me laughing out loud with incredulity during the film. Completely missed the mark with me, and ruined the moment. Would have been a perfect exit for Leia, in my mind.
• Thought there were some really, really nice callbacks during the movie, particularly:
  [**]Luke and Yoda in silhouette with the burning tree; Luke's long hair made him look from behind a TON like Anakin from the prequels.
  [**]Luke's farewell scene on the rock on the island. The two suns at was an excellent callback to our first look at Luke on Tatooine.
• The visual flair of the salt and the red on the mineral planet was excellent; in particular near the very end when Kylo and his force approach the now opened doors the practically gory red scars all over the ground made for an excellent visual and a nice theme of the violence that had just taken place, especially for a series that is very light on blood and gore.
• The Milennium Falcon flying through the tunnels on the mineral planet and getting Tie Fighters to blow up by crashing into things is tired and overused...but it's still Star Wars at its near best. Despite thinking during the scene how overused it is, I still enjoyed it.
• I am really enjoying the interplay between Hux and Kylo, but I am also very worried about a full movie with Kylo in charge.
• Although I REALLY enjoyed his death scene (the subtlety of Kylo beating Snoke at his own game with resolve and twisting both lightsabers simultaneously, allowing Snoke to read his mind while not knowing what he actually planned, was pretty great), Snoke seems like a completely wasted character. If there is no backstory in IX explaining him, I will be extremely frustrated. It's bad enough that 20-some-odd years after Return of the Jedi we are exactly back to square one with the First Order, but Snoke had to exist during the events of the original trilogy - who is he and how did he get there?

I probably have more to talk about, but for now that'll do.

Which books would you recommend?

Anyone else think Po is one of the weaker characters/actors in the movie?

I mean he's just so generic. SOOOO trying to be Han Solo. Kind of a Luke/Han cross. I always was reminded of Bill Pullman in Spaceballs which is a parody of Luke/Han.

So he was performing an imitation of parody of the originals.

Then pair him with purple haired annoying Laura Dern and you've got the worst scenes in the film.

are you kidding? the last movie will feature a Kylo/Rey wedding with extra jedi babies!

Agreed. I think it would have been better to have Leia die in the space scene (which would have been a beautiful goodbye I think), and have Poe try to take over in a coup. Would have set up some interesting questions as to how we see the rebels (Poe is a charismatic guy, but are we trading one military dictatorship for another if the rebels under Commander Poe win).

I half expected Lara Dern to be Poe's mother(who from Canon comics was a rebel pilot).

So I'm not the biggest Star Wars person past the old movies but I'll throw this out. It felt like the whole movie was a set up for "9".

I think the casino scene is setting up the final movie as the new Rebel force will probably come those kids in the stables with the final scene being the kid with the ring and them talking about the "legend" of Luke before being ushered out.

My best guess walking out was the next movie is 10-20 years in the future with the kid with the ring being the next "jedi" with the backstory becoming money versus the poor kids(the new Rebels) when they grow up. Luke ends up in blue the whole movie as a ghost to teach Rey and the future Jedi's. Shit, let's go full on and bring every jedi in blue including Vader to make Kilo see the way back to the good side for a happy ending that no one wants.

Yeah I have no idea how they won't time jump like 5+ years at least for chapter 9.

Maybe those kids will be the heart of episodes 10-12

Because every topic has one of these

Me personally, I thought it was a good movie, though the whole we have to go do something to achieve something else, trope is so fucking old at this point. I like the characters, I liked the stuff with Rey, Luke and Kylo. It was fine enough. People need to get over this Star Wars as being transcendent though. Last Hope and Empire were All-Time great movies. That level of storytelling/characters isn't coming back. There's no need to fight over it like it's a fucking third testament.

I don't think that exact kid at the end will be a character going forward, but that the point of that scene was to leave us with the sense that the battle ahead isn't just the entire First Order against the handful of people left in the resistance. But, instead, that the resistance is a bigger idea will always attract new people, and that it can't be snuffed out just by blowing up some space ships.

And I saw this posted around today, it was from Fantastic Films magazine in 1981, even by Empire Strikes Back there were already complaints that the movie "didn't feel like star wars."

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net...2d&oe=5ABBDAF6

Though at least that's actual film criticism, and not just the 2017 version of supplanting the movie's choices with your own and arguing yours are better. Which is really just fan faction.

We will never see those kids again

There's overly-nostalgic homage to the original trilogy which demands everything change and nothing change all at once; there are fanbois in any genre and anything popular. And then there's anything is ok. I'm in the middle. I'd like there to be more focus on storytelling and less on action. Failing that, just don't stomp all over established lore. There's a huge amount of room left within that box, really there is. Making Leia a character who was never trained in the force and then doing what they did with her not-death scene is the most obvious example, but I talked about some of the other stuff back with TFA. I was never looking for something that would be just as good as the originals(whatever that means); I just wanted something that didn't insult those who were fans of them. And after TFA, I knew I wasn't going to get it. The better parts of Last Jedi notwithstanding, it went even further in that direction.

laughable the about and severity of negative trolling about this movie. yes has faults but not terrible.

My biggest thing is that I think is that we've seen it all before. everything is very stock star wars scene at least a lot of bits

Almost a week later, and I still think highly of the movie. Yes, a lot of the hate is a bit silly. I am sure the people that gripe about the lack of depth of Snoke are big fans of Boba Fett who had even less depth in the movies (though he did look a lot more bad ass). It's not my favorite, but it's in my top 4 and I liked it better than Awakens. The self journeys of Rey and Kylo were interesting, even the one for Luke to some extent. The battle scenes were solid, and the ending was good. Yes, Leia's scene was a bit much. I'm not a fan of the Finn/Rose side story. Otherwise, I thought it set up a lot of intrigue for 9 well.

I liked Snoke, hated the name. It sounds like a sad elephant-nosed creature with a cold

I think the thing that bothered me the most about the new movies is that they leapt straight from destroying the Empire in Jedi to the First ORder.

Kinda making that celebration pointless

I liked the movie. In my opinion I would say the first one was better (I loved that one, liked this one), but still I'm not going to jump on the hate wagon.

What I found funny, and my wife was on the same page: Didn't the whole Rey-Kylo mind connection feel like two millennial talking on Skype? Especially the time it happened and she says "I don't want to deal with this right now" or however she said it. The whole thing makes me really think they end up making out before it is all over.

Hahahaha Skype!!!!!

So awesome

But no one uses Skype now.
It's all discord

And yeah... Jedi babies popping out soon

C'mon, they could see each other. They are obviously using Snapchat ;).

Molson I also would live to know which series of books you are referring g to as that does sound interesting . Could you share some info on which books or writers?

Some thoughts:

- I liked the movie a lot so let's get out of the way first
- the best parts of Star Wars for me are the battle scenes, especially the space battles and that definitely was fun for me
- the Poe growth was nice to watch albeit a little heavy-handed
- the battle scene in Snoke's throne room was hot
- the Yoda scene was really really nostalgic

Here are the nitpicks which make it feel like it missed the mark though:
- Leia in space was BS
- Snokes was a complete waste of time. Seriously, he couldn't sense Kylo's intentions?!?!? Some dark force master he is
- movie felt bloated
- the idea that the First Order fleet should just slowly chase the Republic's last 3 ships for hours.... that's the best they could come up with? If Laura Dern could do what she did, why not do the same thing with an imperial star destroyer? At minimum, why not hyperspace away and back to a closer range or something?
- the design of the republic bomber's seems kinda dumb

I think the biggest issue for me feels like Rian Johnson didn't want to be bogged down with continuity with Episode 7 and just killed off story ideas.

If you notice, Ren is doing the same thing to both light sabres so it's plausible that Snoke confuses the intent. It's actually quite a slick move by Kylo.

I continue to find it interesting the things people like and don't like. Palpatine wasn't exactly expecting Vader to turn on him at the end either, despite all his powers of foresight. Snoke's death scene is a definite strong point of the movie IMO. Agree that not nearly enough was done with the character, but I don't mind how he went out.

The movie was awful.

I could rehash all the plot holes that all the criticisms have pointed out. But here's one I haven't seen anywhere else.

They managed to put out the continuation of the story while Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were still capable and willing to be in the pictures. But they couldn't manage to put any of the two of them in the same scene? Oh wait, they did, but it was another one of Rian Johnson's asinine fake-outs. He, JJ Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy can go F themselves for that level of incompetence.

Lots of thoughts, but overall the recurring theme to me was 'pointless' and 'too long'.

I do sense a bit of a generation gap, and I don't think it's (all) to do with sentimentality. Think it's a change in storytelling in the culture. We oldbies are generally expecting a clash of good/evil, actual heroes & villains, and the modern delivery system is more about greys and subverting the tropes. I just know my completely informal polling of younger/older seems to be a clear divide as to whether they liked the movie or not.

If I'm ranking - and of course I am, because I'm a nerd - I'm thinking

5, 4
R1, 7, 6
3, 1, 8
~big gap~
2

Not true. Fisher and Ford were in scenes together. But yeah that is weird that there wasn't much/ Then again....the busy schedules of supercelebs...

You LIked Send In The Clones better than the original movie AND Empire Strikes back?!?!? You are point blank wrong.