Oh der.
I'm so stupid sometimes.
*smacks head*

Well, I gave you the list alphabetically by last name, anyway. ;) I can pretend I was useful.

/tk

Jerry Hairson needs to ask for his money back if he did roids.

Agreed. They are all guilty. Selig is a bum, and Sheffield is a loser. Nice job MLB. After this, the NFL just pulled even FURTHER ahead of you in the sports race.:D

So does Jason Grimsley.

Fixed ;)


Don't think the NFL doesn't have just as big of a problem.

MEMO TO STEPHEN A SMITH:

"In October 2006, after the Los Angeles Times reported that the names of Clemens and McNamee were among those that had been redacted from an affidavit in support of a search warrant for the residence of Jason Grimsley as allegedly involved with the illegal use of performance enhancing substances..."

LOL. How dark IS that cave, Stephen A?

Obviously they do when OL/DL are in excess of 350 lbs. these days. Yes, humans are bigger than we were 100 years ago, but c'mon. In any case, the NFL is much better at sweeping stuff under the rug (i.e. Shawn Merriman received very little press).

Really? How do you quantify how much press someone receives? I have always wondered when reading statements like that.

Did I see a guy named Nook in there?

Nook?

The most depressing part of this (after admittedly only skimming it) is that the report for the most part is based around only three suppliers (BALCO, the Mets guy and McMann or whatever - I can't be bothered to look it up).

Think of how many other suppliers are out there that would have been getting steroids to other players that didn't make this report.

Also, what is there, 8 Yankees from the 2000 World Series team? Better throw an asterisk on that one.

McNamee is tied to Rodomski (Mets guy) -- the 3rd supplier would be Signature Pharmacy.

Compared to the baseball steroid/HgH debacle, Merriman was a blink of an eye in the media coverage. That is all that I am saying.

That is a good argument, and I am a Yankees fan. But 2 things should be considered here; 1) how many of the players linked to it on that Yankees team were integral parts of the championship team? Clemens, Pettite - yes. Grimsley? That is laughable. 2) How many players on other championship teams before and after the 2000 Yankees team also were on 'roids? Maybe we should just put an asterisk next to every name and every team in every year. That way all of our bases are covered....:eek:

They DON'T have a problem.

The issue here isn't that guys are using drugs. Yes, some guys careers are ruined. Some guys will never make it to the hall because of this. But that isn't it.

This is a PR issue. The NFL doesn't have a problem with steroids because they can hold up their contract and go through their history and show that they did everything they could do to clean things up.

The NFL sits back and laughs their asses off at these other sports. It'll happen in hockey and basketball too, because those sports have been lax. The way to attack this is to go on a PR campaign and come up with a testing policy BEFORE it becomes a widespread problem. Then if something comes up, you can say you tried.

Baseball swept it under the rug and pretended the problem didn't exist. Now they are paying the price. Baseball has nobody else but themselves to blame for this. Instead of people laughing at the NFL's policy, they should be looking at the NFL as the model league for staying ahead of these problems.

Just noticed Paul Byrd and Ismael Valdez. Huh.

Couldn't agree with you more. MLB has swept this stuff under the rug for so long that they don't even know what is legal or healthy anymore. Bud Selig is a complete moron whom tried to escape these problems but was unable to. Now he is being forced to confront it and the results are really quite ugly. Selig should read up on what Paul Tagliabue did with the NFL and get a clue.

I disagree with this. Merriman was talked about all year in the press. When he made the pro bowl, the league changed the rule on allowing players to make it who had suspensions in that year. It even dragged out to the DPOY voting when Taylor talked about how he should win it because he was clean.

The NFL didn't take a PR hit though. Why? Because THEY SUSPENDED Merriman. If Merriman had set a sack record and the was linked with a clinic providing steroids to multiple NFL all pros and those players had never received a suspension or had never even been tested? Now they have the problem MLB has and now they get slammed in PR.

Good thing I heard the show. What he said was he had never heard Roger Clemens's name in regards to 'roids in the same way that the Steroid Five (Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro and Giambi) were mentioned. As you pointed out, Clemens was named in L.A. Times report. However the immediate reaction from most of the media and many fans that there was no evidence that he used anything. Today is the first time I have heard widespread media attention (acceptance?) of Clemens's alleged steroid use.

You are talking about one player versus an entire professional sport. Of course there is a difference. That doesn't mean that Merriman did not receive "a lot" of coverage. His story came up in numerous different news cycles, too (the suspension, the aftermath, the playoffs, the DPoY, the Pro Bowl...)

Just wondering for those who've had a chance to look over the report. How much (if any) is Bud Selig implicating in covering up or obstructing plans to deal with the steroid issue? ESPN was seeming to say that very little of the blame was left at Selig's door.

I thought Steve Phillips comments on ESPN just now were interesting. Nothing new really -- basically he acknowledged that GM's "knew" (i.e. believed but had no evidence) certain players were on the juice -- but that without anyone else raising cane about it that he (nor any GM) were willing to put their own jobs on the line by going to the owner & demanding something be done.

I'm sorry, MLB used this investigation as a PR stunt, a complete joke...carry on MLB, with one less fan...

Frank Thomas(god bless him) and Giambi the only players who talked with Mitchell? ESPN defending/spinning the situation at every turn? I know it makes economic sense for them to sweep this under the rug, but please, fuck you MLB...

I think it's kind of interesting that, of the ESPN talking heads, Kruk & Phillips seem to be the most accepting of the findings of the report while Kurkjian & Gammons are much more dismissive of it.

Can't help but notice that the former have pretty much already made their living from baseball while the latter are dependent upon continued fan interest to continue making their livings.

Taken from somewhere else...


Just saying.

Did you actually read the report, there were a number of other players that spoke to Mitchell besides those two.

Edit... Unless you are talking about current players...

Clearly should award the 2000 WS to the Mets!!!

I forgot Neagle even played for them in that series. If it is really THAT important to everyone, the Yankees should give back the 2000 world series title. Of course, they still have 25 more of them to admire.....:D

ESPN has more talking heads than Mr. Rogers neighborhood. With that being said, if there is one person that probably took something that is not being talked about, it is Kruk. That guy has the biggest melon I have ever seen (except for maybe Stewie Griffin in The Family Guy, but that is a cartoon).:eek:

Another conclusion could be that Phillips and Kruk are/were on the inside where Kukjian and Gammons despite their reputation and respect level were always outsiders.

Ive said this numerous times before, but I know FOR A FACT that major college football programs had a major problem in the late 90s (not saying they didnt before or dont now, but I KNOW they did then) and it was amazing how candidly it was discussed amongst fellow "brothers" (even from different programs) but never breathed when anyone else was present or to an outsider.

Maybe its naievity but I find it entirely possible that Kruk and Phillips KNOW what goes on and Gammons and TIMMAY only can speculate and feel betrayed by the athletes they felt were their friends, now realizing they most likely lied to them "in confidence"

Anyone watching/listening to Selig? What a moron. I wish he would go back to the Brewers.

You're grouping a problem with steroid use in the NFL with the NFL's ability to PR the situation. The NFL doesn't have a problem with steroids in the court of public opinion. The NFL does have a problem with players using. Just the same as baseball, the difference is they've PR'd the situation immeasurably better than baseball has.

The NFL has the weakest union in all of sports and one that would be a joke outside of sports. Baseball has to fight tooth and nail to get anything done while the NFL can go to Gene Upshaw, ask him anything, and he'll bend over backwards to help the commissioner. Baseball proposed steroid testing in 1994 and the talks based around that collective bargaining agreement led to the season being canceled. To get baseball on the field again they just dropped steroid testing from the collective bargaining talks.

Instead of blaming all of baseball, people should be looking directly at the player's union and asking them why they continue to defend and protect criminals.

The NFL is far from a model league in how they delt with steroids. They've delt with them as public has knowledge increased. They had their eyes on dollars, not protecting players.

I was actually kind of surprised that Selig's comments were as strong as they were & even the tiniest bit optimistic about the tone overall.

Problem is that the commissioner's office is pretty neutered by the players union and I'd be shocked that they agreed to anything that was truly "in the best interest of baseball".

I know Selig is hated by most baseball fans, but does anyone actually have reasons for this?

I'm willing to bet over 90% of the problems people have with Selig and his perceived incompetence can be tied directly to having to deal with the player's union.

Pujols isnt on the list SI just put on their front page, so im not sure why he was on the list someone else posted earlier.

Yeah... he was on that first - mostly false - list. He's not one of the guys talked about in the report.

...which, as I'm reading it, I remember why I never wanted to be a lawyer. :)

My personal opinion is that Selig is a supreme pushover and a man of little action. He had to have known about the steroids problem at least since he became commissioner, probably even earlier from his days with Milwaukee. Now if this is the case, why did he not do something about it sooner, rather than later? As someone earlier posted, why not put a drug testing policy in place BEFORE all of this becomes public? Yes, the players union in baseball has immense power, but it takes 2 sides to offer a product such as this. Instead of bending over for the union, Selig should have stood firm and required a mandatory drug testing regiment. Perhaps an entire season would have been missed due to a player strike (a.k.a. the NHL), but the players would have eventually come around because they want to play and get their huge salaries. True, most of them could play in Japan or something, but who really believes that players like Pujols, Jeter, Rodriguez, and others would go to Japan for more than one season? Selig is an embarrassment to anybody in a leadership role. The steroid problem came full circle on his watch, and he was asleep the whole time.

Selig proposed steroid testing in 1994. The new collective bargaining agreement signed after the strike left it out. Owners just wanted the players back on the field. This meant it wasn't even up for discussion again until 2002.

In 2001 Selig implemented testing on minor leaguers not on the 40-man roster of MLB teams since those on the 40 man roster are protected by the player's association.

Selig's problem isn't action on his part. His problem is a player's union and his inability to handle PR proactively rather that reactively.

I believe perhaps the most influential thing in this whole situation is something that Selig alluded to toward the end of his presser: that this is really a societal problem, not just a baseball problem.

Let's be real here, there's a lot more people upset over the idea that a few home runs or strikeouts might have been affected than by the number of people willing to commit felonies in order to get those dingers & K's. And if that's the majority (and of those who actually follow baseball I imagine it is) then we're so fucked up that this isn't going to really be fixed no matter what MLB does. Players, owners, et al don't exist in a vacuum, they're just parts of society like all the rest of us. They're a mirror of the rest of us and if we don't care about the more important issues here then how/why do we expect them to?

I think you answered your own question there.

Selig is weak, and the union is strong. I don't know if anyone could have stood up to them, honestly. The only way to "save" baseball from payroll and steroid issues would have been to shut it down - long term. The union wouldn't agree to help the game until seasons (plural) went down the drain. By then there would probably be a new player-friendly league.

Back in '94 though, it wasn't about the issues, with the media and fans. It was about "They're greedy - it's our game!!!!". I'm not blaming the fans. But I don't think there was really any way to fix any of this.

Selig's power in neutered not only by the player's union but by the owners as well. If you remember, baseball got rid of Faye Vincent who was baseball's last true commissioner in a vote of no confidence mainly because he sided with the players in the collusion scandal.

Selig was then named chairman of baseball's Executive Council and his main job is to answer to the owners. It always has been. What he has managed to do is get a lot of the power previous commissioner's have had, but he still isn't the voice of the league in the same way the NFL's commissioner is.

As I said above, Selig proposed steroid testing in '94. His job after the strike, however, was to get baseball back on the field before it became about as relavent as the NHL. Owners weren't prepared for the strike and they were losing money faster than the player's union was.

I've heard a lot of interviews with him - he actually seems like smart guy who understands the game and where it's going. He's just overpowered by the union.

Then again there's the whole All-Star game mess, which kind of makes that description hard to really get behind too.

I think it fits in - the guy's awful under pressure.

True. I would love to support the guy, but I have seen nothing from him to warrant my support. Instead, he is a weak man whom is (as mentioned above) overpowered by the player's union. It is unfortunate that they don't all see the benefit of drug testing and how the careers of all these players will be viewed in 20 years. Not to mention the possibility that many of these players will die very young (i.e. Caminiti).

So now we get a World Series home field advantage determined by steroid popping guys in a staged all-star game in a bloated league.

This is a sad day for baseball, no matter how you look at it. :(

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the reason for this is to get Fehr in front of the House Oversight Commitee to ask him if he's willing to accept the recommendations from Mitchell and if not, why.

Somewhat anti-climactic since many of you nailed a lot of the players in the predictions.

The part I liked best was saying that these f'n cheaters created an unfair, unnatural imbalance. Unlike past drug problems in baseball (where it was a much higher percentage of users), as well as other sports including track&field, cycling and football (yes, I said football, where if you not using, you're not good enough to play), the smaller percentage of users in the Steroids Era created aberations.

My hope going forwards is that ALL of these players will be (or continue to be) condemned and those targeted for the HOF, get no more than the 25% they deserve...forever. There is no need to erase records because there is no precedent of it in baseball (Jackson is still among the top lifetime BA and Rose is still the hits leaders).

Dumb question. I didn't see two of four poster boys (along with Bonds and Clemens) for the Steroids Era: McGwire and Sosa.

Well that's the problem with "comdemnation" and building up anyone not on this list - it can't possibly claim to cover everyone and everything.

But it can cover those ON the list.

Quite honestly, this was surprising at first but as I did a bit of research, it made a bit more sense.

What exactly is the evidence against McGwire and Sosa that show that they used steroids or HGH? Other than being accused by Canseco and their performance in front of Congress, I can't find any. There is no positive test. There is no link to a BALCO or such. Does that mean they did not use drugs? Hell no. Do I believe that they did? Absolutely. But I can't point to any conclusive evidence to say yes they did. Maybe that evidence will come in the future.

Woohoo, no Bags!

Mo Vaughn
 

Radomski said that he did not sell Vaughn steroids because Vaughn was “afraid of the big needles.”:D

that's 2/5 of the championship rotation of how many yankees World Series? can I get an asterisk?

That was kind of the point of the Mitchell report though, to reveal new evidence about new players that hadn't been tied to Balco or positive tests.

Though like I said before, it's obviously not going to be 100% all-encompassing.

Sure, let's just not label everyone else "clean".

I'm convinved the % of players who has used a banned substance is in the neighborhood of 80-85%, so this list isn't a huge deal or revelation.

I think the point of the Mitchell report was originally to put an end to the steroid era by giving an all-encompassing account of what happened. IMO, it seems to evolved into a general account of what was going on and some great recommendations on where to go from here.

I don't think the report was an amazing piece of work that shed light on the dark corners of the steroid era, but I do think Mitchell did a pretty damn good job considering what he had to work with. A lot of people are just skimming it for names and its a shame, because that isn't really the point of it. I've read probably the first 70 or so pages so far and its pretty interesting and, IMO, very fair.

That is what I am saying. At this point there has been a lot less evidence linking McGwire and Sosa to drug use than the others.

On a side note, do we need to re-evaluate Rafael Palmeiro's claim that he got a tainted B-12 shot from Miguel Tejada? Obviously, Tejada is not the innocent teammate that we all thought he was in 2005. Maybe Raffy was telling the truth.

It took me 4 years to get back into baseball after the last strike. I think it will take longer than that for me to get back into the game again. I feel cheated and lied to. A lot of my favorite players are on that list.

I stopped watching the NBA after the last lockout, and never watched since. I'm done with the Olympics already, and pretty much done with the NFL due to poor game coverage. I have no more sports left to watch anymore, so I guess I might as well learn to knit.

I think we found another person that has been living in a cave.

I wanted to believe in the good of man. :(

I had a feeling Jack Cust was on the juice. I mean, dude comes out and hits 89 homers this year after previously not hitting any homers not even in high school?

Can the 89 A's get an asterisk too? Fuckin posers.

:eek:

I have seen the mystics play there
Once or twice but I knew they had a reason
Enchantment plays it's cards all right
Hand in hand with the working of the seasons

Legends can be now and forever
Teaching us to love for goodness sake
Legends can be now and forever
Loved by the sun, loved by the sun
Loved

Two and two go so close together
Whether there is hope that is torn apart
In the words of all that's singing
Hand in hand the beginning is at the start

Legends can be now and forever
Teaching us to reach for goodness sake
Legends can be now and forever
Loved by the sun
Loved by the sun
Loved

Who sings of all of love's eternity
Whose shines so bright
In all the songs of love's unending spells

Only lightning strikes all that's evil
Teaching us to love for goodness sake
Hear the music of love eternal
Teaching us to reach for goodness sake
Legends can be now and forever
Teaching us to love for goodness sake

Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
To believe in the good in man.
To believe in the good in man.
To believe in the good in man

How sad is it, that in the midst of these troubled times for baseball, it appears Jose Canseco might have been the sane one after all?

He said in an interview with Rome before the first book came out that he wanted to be responsible for cleaning up baseball. I scoffed like so many others, but really who had more of a driving impact?

Somewhere, off in the distance, a porsche screams.

I really can't believe people doubted him for so long.

I mean, it wasn't going to be a choir boy that would expose (or know details about) baseball's seedy secrets.

No so much that I doubted him, just amazed that he is the voice of reason...

Considering the information is mainly from only three sources I highly doubt these 60+ named are the only ones that cheated.

It is obviously not a comprehensive list. One shouldn't just stop at those not named and assume they are all not using steroids or anything.

That's true but I don't think it would reach anywhere near the percentages of the other sports mentioned. I'm keying off of the statement in the report about how a relatively few were creating an unfair advantage by cheating.

Completely agree with the above posts. Unfortunately, that appears to be what some people are taking out of it. These sources are basically just covering off "the supply guy" for about 3-5 teams. It's basically just the Mets guy, the Yanks guy and BALCO. It's not like these were the only three sources for steroids out there. I'm pretty sure players from the Cubs/White Sox could find a guy in Chicago for supplements.

What you really want to do is take that list and multiply it by about 10 to give you a more accurate reflection of the mass consumption and abuse of PE in the late 90's in baseball. There was probably quite a few more big name guys out there that should be on that list that aren't.

And just for fun I'll quote myself from earlier this year:

There is always women's softball. At least until the big bra-stuffing scandal breaks.

It's pretty funny to hear Kurkijan try to defend Clemens. "If everything in the report was true he wouldn't have come out so strongly and denied it"... uh yeah dumbass nobody ever lies to defend themselves. He's not under oath, he and his lawyer can say whatever the hell they want.

For me, the cap fits Clemens just as much as it fits Bonds. You shouldn't be able to come back at 35 after a lot of people have given up on you with an improved fastball and start striking people out at a record pace. I had never looked at Randy Johnson's numbers that way either, but that has got to be the juice too.

I feel sorry for the Hall of Fame. Bonds ball goes in with an asterisk, now where do you stop?

Kurkijan can be alright but you are correct in how naive he is. It's sickening. Then Gammons is on his high horse about players he likes as well. They all deserve each other. Baseball ended for me in '94 and I just need to accept that fact.

It's unfortunate this was such a large part of baseball and probably still is to a degree. Still, out of curiosity, are you fans who are giving up on baseball, have you liked professional football throughout the years? You do realize football players have been juicing for dozens of years now and likely still continue to use various performance enhancers that cant be detected.

this has been addressed. At least football has been trying to deal with the problem. Instead of sweeping it under the rug and saying "What problem?".

Well, giving the appearance of dealing with the problem. PR wise, the NFL is doing wonderfully. But in actual usage, I don't think the NFL is that much better than MLB.

So, any Reds fans still wondering how Hal Morris got on there? He was a solid hitter for 5-6 years there, but the guy hit like 3 HR's a year. He must've REALLY sucked without the juice.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseba...,6539890.story

Canseco has a second book coming out. I believe it's called, "I Fucking Told You."

This report isn't actually all that bad from a PR standpoint.

You knew there would be a lot of players on the list, but if you were going to make a list of players who have been whispered about that MLB had to really hope wouldn't be mentioned, I think it would look something like:

- Pujols
- Griffey
- Thomas
- Ramirez
- Ortiz
- Clemens
- Alex Rodriguez
- Ivan Rodriguez

One out of eight isn't bad at all, and I'm sure I'm missing a few...

P.S. Am I reading this right, and Juan Gonzalez isn't on the list? That's almost a dead giveaway that "the list" isn't complete, isn't it?

What? Aren't three of those on the list?

Um... no?

Yeah, didn't Michael Vick come out and strongly deny the whole dog fighting thing when it was first announced?

I watched a little ESPN News last night, just hear what the talking heads were saying. I can see the report leading to changes to the way baseball approaches drug testing and the like. But I can't see any reason to investiage past steroid use or any of the allegations made in this report. What will come of it? The MLB wont erase the records or anything like that. Is an asteriks really worth all of the time, money, and energy that would go into such investigations?

The only future impact I can see this having would be on these players' chances to make the Hall of Fame.

They showed like 5-10 minutes of Clemens working out with Pettitte on ESPNEWS. Why?

Then I flipped over to ESPN Classic and saw Clemens in like 4 "This is SportsCenter" commercials. Do they love him or hate him? Even they don't know.

Classic.

There is one of those "breaking news" headlines at the top of the CNN.com page that says: "AP: President Bush says baseball must take steroid report seriously, but not jump to conclusions about individuals named."

Thanks, Mr. President! I'm glad you're paying attention to the serious issues. Now, if only you had followed your own advice and taken those pre-war reports seriously and not jump to conclusions about weapons of mass destructions and all that other nonsense, perhaps we'd have saved thousands of lives and trillions of dollars and not be mired in a useless, pointless and destructive war!

Well, I guess his statement shows that at least he's learned something from all of this. Well done, Mr. President!

+1

i havnt watched a game since then

Baseball aside for a moment, have you ever seen Canseco on the Surreal Life? He was on it a couple of years ago with Janice Dickinson and some other people, and WOW!!! He is a real piece of work. (My wife watches that crap and I saw a little bit of them :( )

LOL

Have you seen some of those female softball players? I wouldn't be surprised to see THEM named in the Mitchell report as well. :eek:

people dont care about roids in football, we kinda expect them to be crazed man-beasts beating on each other. plus football doesnt circle-jerk around "hallowed records" and the "purity of the game" crap. football sells its self on the competative entertainment, baseball sells its self on phoney historical records and tradition. btw where were all these baseball purist on tv complaining about the players in the golden age of baseball ( 50-70's) when it was discovered practically every player was loading up on "leaded coffee" and other amphetamines? thats more of a performance enhancer then roids

David Ortiz has a huge melon. Griffey, with all of his injuries, probably juiced at some point in his career. I wouldn't be surprised if Manny Ramirez did, but for some reason I doubt it. I am sure Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez did. Ditto for Frank Thomas. Not sure about Pujols. We already know about Clemens. That leaves A-Rod. After seeing pictures of him when he was with Seattle compared to pictures of him last year, I would not at all be surprised to see his name surface at some point. His arms, neck, and thighs are huge compared to a decade ago. The thing that would cause me to pause with him is the fact that his numbers have remained constant throughout. It's not like he hit 10 homeruns in 2000, then all of a sudden started hitting 50 every year. But by his looks, it would not surprise me. Otherwise, he might really just have an intense workout....:rolleyes:

I continue to deny that Griffey did steroids... or if he did, he got the least out of them over the last few years of anyone in the history of the universe.

It pretty much did for me as well. Except during the playoffs, then I watch the Red Sox. But that's about it.

I dunno, Jerry Hairston, Jr. wasn't exactly winning batting titles.....:eek:

I'm not saying none of those guys have ever used anything. Just that having almost all of them left out of the report has to be considered relatively good news for baseball.

I'm talking injury-wise though. Steroids are supposed to help you recover more quickly from injuries. Griffey has become a running joke due to injuries.

Not saying he hasn't done them, because in my opinion, everyone is under suspicion at this point.

Injury-wise you should include Eric Gagne as well. Even Kevin Brown (not named in the report but.....).

Just fold the league already and start a new one with new records from scratch. Imagine every night with headlines like "ARod breaks the career HR mark with 5 HR."

Ha, just like one of the older versions of OOTP when you'd sim the first game of a career and records were being broken on seemingly every play.