I find that hard to believe. While a handfull of 360 arcade titles have gotten good scores, a far larger majority have gotten justifiably ripped. Even if you are right and it doesn't make a difference, I'd want to see the scores seperated. I expect FAR more from a $40-$60 title than I do a $10 title. This is for all systems BTW. I think including those types of games skews the numbers you are trying to show.

I may filter through the list when I get home tonight. Give me something to do while I'm watching the opening of the football season.

I don't care what the percentages are. They don't matter. You are just using them to continue you PS3 fanboy crusade.

Fact is, the Wii and 360 have more good on them than the PS3.

Hell, there is an XBOX Live Arcade game that is better than everything available on the PS3.

What does that say?

Look at the titles that are on both the 360 and the PS3.

All of them are better on the 360. Just look at the review scores.

I personally think it was a pretty accurate picture. It showed that the 360 has a wealth of good games right now, the PS3 has some solid titles (but not nearly enough), and the Wii has a few big titles with a whole lot of nothing after that. It pretty much matches the perception of all three consoles at this point. I was honestly surprised that it was so accurate related to perception.

PS3 has some similar stinkers as well. Games like:

Super Rub-a-Dub
flOw
Lemmings
Gripshift
Go! Puzzle
Blast Factor

All got below average reviews and were the $10 titles you speak of. It all evens out when you go through the list, basically leaving a similar situation where the 360 and PS3 have roughly the same curve with the Wii having a much lower curve.

I'm not using it to show the 360 is better or worse than the PS3. (in terms of software, that isn't even a debate now) I'm saying that it's skewing the numbers. But I guess as usual, you didn't bother to read my posts. In bold:

A majority of the "dog" scores are going to arcade games for all systems.

Even if you are right and it doesn't make a difference, I'd want to see the scores seperated. I expect FAR more from a $40-$60 title than I do a $10 title. This is for all systems BTW. (read the full thing, especially the last sentence)

When you wipe out the arcade games, I think we are going to find the scores for all systems start to slide upward. I believe there will be a very small percentage of games under 7. That shows how screwed up review scores can be and why it's critical not to just look at the score, but read the text of the review before making a decision.

i give stuntman ignition a 103 score

it is fun and it is real. u drive a car on a movie set and u cant die. buy this game for $60 or if u can find it for $80 then pay $80. it is that good. they do not make it for sega genesis.

The Wii became the fastest selling console ever to hit a million consoles sold in the UK by reaching the mark in 38 weeks. PS2 was 2nd at 50 weeks to do the same and it took the 360 60 weeks to do so. Also, the Wii has hit over 3 million sold in Japan only 7 months after its launch:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6177889...stnews;title;2

I had the numbers still available. So I took out the arcade titles in the PS3 and 360 list (Metacritic had no VC titles for the Wii reviewed, so their numbers remain unchanged). As I stated earlier, It's pretty much the same with a couple of very small changes. I've put the change in percentage from the previous list to show you how the removal of arcade titles affect the overall list..........


-Both consoles showed similar improvement in the 70-100 range of good titles. The PS3 had a slight reduction in a couple of the below average levels. While the 360 percentages improved in the 60-69 range, it was offset by the fact that all of the 360 games ranked 40-49 were non-arcade games, therefore the percentage of the total games in that range went up.

-Looking at the percentages (revised), the PS3 has 67% of it's games rated 70 or higher. The Xbox 360 has 59% of its games rated 70 or higher. The Wii has 33% of its games rated 70 or higher.

-Looking at the 'stinker' category (less than 50). The 360 has 11% of its games that were under 50, while the PS3 came in at 6%. The Wii has 17% of its games that came in with a score of 49 or less.

Another issue with review scores that may hurt the Wii is target audience. For example, Cars for the 360 gets a 65 on Metacritic's scale. I'll tell you now that my kids love that game to death. It is way too simple a racing game for your typical 20-40 male reviewer, but is perfect for younger kids. I wouldn't be surprised to see Wii games ripped by reviewers that are adored by the actual audience those games are targeted at.

Licensing is a big selling point, especially with kids who don't read reviews but surely know the characters in a given game. The only kid titles that really seem to buck that trend you point out are the Lego games and the Backyard Sports games. Reviewers seem to respect those franchises for what they are and the Lego: Star Wars games are even popular with adults.

Mass Effect's release date will be November 20th:

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/14381/...ate-Announced/

Today, Microsoft Game Studios and BioWare Corp. announced that the highly anticipated action role-playing game (RPG) “Mass Effect” will ship to retailers throughout North America on November 20, 2007. The recipient of more than 50 awards, including the 2007 Game Critics Awards for “Best Console Game” and “Best RPG” at the Electronic Entertainment Expo last month in Los Angeles, “Mass Effect” is poised to become the must-play RPG of 2007.

After Oblivion, the 360 is in need of a good RPG since it looks like Blue Dragon isn't quite as impressive as hoped.

This one plays similar to Oblivion, correct (i.e. it's not a turn-based RPG)?

Once again, no, Mass Effect is a turn based RPG like KOTOR that you can allow to run without turns if you choose.

Good deal. As much as I enjoy Oblivion, I'm generally a bigger fan of the turn-based RPG. Would love to see more good ones come down the line.

Anybody have a chance yet to play Super Puzzle Fighter HD Remix yet? I saw it's out today on XBLA and PSN. I lost a lot of my youth to that game. I've heard they did an excellent job cleaning up the graphics to upgrade it to HD.

I've answered that same question/comment from you re: Mass Effect at least twice before ;)

I know. I felt the sharp sting of discipline when you said 'Once again, no,......'. It hurt, but I took it like a champ. :)

MLB Power Pros is coming out on October 1 (PS2, Wii), right in time for the baseball playoffs. I can't wait, from all I've read about the Japanese version this game sounds pretty awesome.

I'm trying to get a reviewable from Capcom. Probably be easier to get for XBLA than PSN, but que sera, sera.

Heard good things over the years, but never have played it.

Lair is getting shredded in reviews. No, MizzouBBFan, these aren't early preview copies anymore ;) IGN gave it a 4.9. I don't think I've ever seen IGN give such a poor score. Here is the review:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/817/817117p1.html

Edited to add: PSM magazine, an official playstation magazine, gives the game a 5 out of 10.

Ouch. That's too bad. I was hoping that game would be great.

Dragon fights are super cool. How can you screw that up?

Unbelievable. That's a shredding. Things just don't look good for Sony right now. Two highly anticipated titles are scoring low in reviews. IGN ripped both Heavenly Sword and Lair in a single day. They did rate Warhawk highly, but I'm fairly certain this isn't what Sony had in mind. I don't hold much hope for Lair anymore. I'll still grab Heavenly Sword, but I'm not sure what other games I will purchase for the PS3 anytime soon.

I would consider a sports game for the rosters. . . but I love the 360 controller right now. It feels a lot better to me than the PS3 one. Unless one of the sports games is rated considerably higher, I'll buy the 360 version.

TroyF won't say "I told you so", so I'll say it for him - looks like his analysis of the Amazon pricing on Lair was on the money.

Uh, you might want to read the last page, Mr. William Gates.

Yeah, it turned out I was wrong on the pricing thing. (because it was a mistake to begin with. My assertion that they wouldn't cut the price by over half without some kind of inside knowledge stands IMHO)

The sad thing? My concerns for the game after the delay appear to be validated. Amazon SHOULD have kept up with their pricing. If the early returns are any indication, they have no chance in hell of selling out of their stock now.

Uh-huh. I'm fully aware of their claim of it being a mistake.

Maybe it really was a mistake, maybe they're just being polite so as not to piss off the game publisher. The game, by pretty much all the reviews coming out now, is a major, major let-down. Coincidence? Or did Amazon know something...

Dola - I'm not entirely sure what the William H. Gates crack was all about, but if you are implying I'm a shill for Microsoft, you might want to look in the mirror Mr. Howard Stringer.

Yes, it's not fairing well at all. I went over to a PS3 forum as that's a good place to get further info about a game when the reviews are mixed or downright poor. Even the PS3 fans who have the game were giving it a 7. Given that it's a pretty biased forum overall, you can knock that down to a 5 or 6 easily.

Heavenly Sword (83) and Warhawk (84) are getting good reviews and Warhawk is selling very well according to early sales reports. I guess PS3 fans will just have to be happy that Sony at least did well on those. But it is really disappointing to see Lair not turn out well, even after a few extra weeks under the knife.

I wouldn't exactly say Heavenly Sword is getting great reviews. Even if it holds to it's 83 average, we have two problems:

1) The ratings bias I talked about above. Play Magazine is one of the reviews so far and gave it a 100. And even a quote that's used in one of the reviews is worrysome.

So, while it doesn't eclipse the greatness of the original title that inspired it, Heavenly Sword is still a fun, engaging, and most importantly, exclusive PS3 title that Sony fanboys can brag to 360 fanboys about.


This guy gave the game an 88. But it's not as good as the original title that inspired it and "most importantly" it's an exclusive? WTF!?!

2) This wasn't supposed to be an "83" This was supposed to be a 90+. This was supposed to be a game of the year candidate. If this were a surprise hit that popped out at an 83, that's not a bad thing. But this had more hype than that.

I'll buy the game day one, just as planned, and judge for myself. But between Lair screwing the pooch and this not being the class of game I expected, I'm incredibly dissapointed. Were the PS3 my only system, I'd be REALLY pissed off about now.

No one in this thread has said Heavenly Sword is getting great reviews, but I'm nit-picking at that point. A score in the mid-80's certainly warrants a purchase as a good game that's well-worth the money, especially if you're into that style of game. Also, Heavenly Sword isn't even released yet. When Lair got the early reviews averaging about 6.5-7.0, I said to wait until it was released and then judge it. Obviously was a good point as it wasn't a 6.5-7.0 game........it was more like a 5.

We get it on the reviews. You don't buy into the system of number/letter ratings. I don't either. With that said, the composite score created by putting together various reviews does at least give a general idea of the overall quality of the game. You certainly didn't see me posting any scores from PS3-centered publications for the reason you cite above. Their opinion can be very misleading, but when using composite scores, their opinion is leveled out by other neutral publications. If you have a better method to get a solid neutral reads on the game other than personal opinion, I'm all ears.

I agree that the three recent releases were hyped to an ridiculous extent. I think we can agree that Lair is a disaster at this point. I think Warhawk has done very well. I honestly didn't think that a multiplayer-only game would do well in sales, but it has done very well so far. We'll see what the final product does when Heavenly Sword comes out. With that said, none of these games were expected to be major system sellers and that's been discussed in these threads. They are good games that expand a library that is overall lacking in number of titles. Did Sony hype them as more than that? Possibly, but I think most people saw them as good games, not system sellers. Sony PR isn't doing very well right now as it is, so nothing should surprise in that category.

Everyone knows the true killer titles for the PS3 will not be released until 2008. That's not a secret at all. It's roughly the same time during the life cycle that the 360 had several big titles, which was this year. The PS3 has to make headway next year when those system sellers come out.

Yeah, the American version of IGN only gave Heavenly Sword a 7 which makes it one of the worst reviewed PS3 games to date on their site. There are plenty of Heavenly Sword reviews that are not good although the average is skewed by some extremely high scores from a few reviewers.

That's simplpy not true The average is not skewed. Mean score is the average of all scores, which is an 83. The median score, which is the middle score of all of them in the list, can be used to determine bias. The median score is 83.5. If there was a skewing of the composite score upward, the median score would be lower than the mean score (i.e. most of the scores would be below the mean, but an extremely high number would be offsetting those lower scores). Conversely, if the score were being skewed downward by one extremely low score, the median score would be higher.

In this case, there's no bias in the data. It's actually pretty close to a bell curve with the composite score falling right at the peak of that curve.

Sony wasn't the only one hyping Heavenly Sword. It received countless awards from E3 and other shows. It may not have been expected to be a system seller, but it was expected to be a bigtime hit.

By the looks of it, it's a decent game with great cut scenes. It's also short from what the reviews are saying.

This isn't good news for Sony, I don't care how much you try to spin it. It may not cost them sales and it may not have been a system seller anyway, but they need some games to create a positive buzz to build up some momentum.

The 360 is going to have a wave of top flight games coming out for it this fall I said 5 A+++ games in another thread and got called out as being a 360 homer. With GTA delayed, that's one game off the table. But Bioshock (which had the least amount of buzz of any of the titles) already at that level and Mass Effect and Halo 3 dropping, I think it's going to get pretty close to that level.

The PS3 didn't need another "solid" game. It needed a hit. And it's looking like both Lair and Heavenly Sword won't be it. Warhawk is a nice effort. If Heavenly Sword and Lair lived up to expectations, Warhawk could be the hidden gem sleeper hit Sony would need to surround itself with the biggies. Instead, it looks like the best game of the three. I don't know how you can spin this as anything other than bad for Sony. I'm sure you'll find the way. :)

BTW, the Wikipedia entry on Heavenly Sword:

Following E3 2006, the game the was awarded "Best Fighting Game" by the Game Critics Award. The game also gained critical reception from a number of gaming websites, including "Best Artistic Design" and "Award for Technological Excellence" in IGN's PS3 Best of E3 2006 Awards, "Top Playable Game" by next-gen.biz, "Best PS3 Game" by Meristation, and "Best of Show" by GameZone and GamePro. Initial reviews have been mixed.



Does that sound like a decent, solid game or a terrifc game you'd want on opening day? YMMV I guess.

Bill Harris' blog has a link to a funny review of the Heavenly Sword demo and RE5 trailer.

Heavenly Sword and Warhawk could have both got a 90 instead of an 84 and it wouldn't produce a lick more of positive buzz for the PS3 except for a bit more excitement amongst PS3 owners, but even then, those aren't the people that Sony needs to sell on the system. It's a great system, but as long as it's more than $399, there's going to be people lined up to attack the system. It's a simple fact that price point is THE major issue. Most major analysts agree with that assessment. It's really not rocket science.

The Escapist is a must read. Always good articles.

Has anyone picked up the new Super Metroid for the Wii. Most of what I heard about it is that it's very good gameplay, but it's not a major advancement from the Gamecube version. Certainly, if you enjoyed the previous version, that's likely not a bad thing.

I haven't played it, but my son has been since we got it on Tuesday. It looks very much like the GC versions, maybe better.

More Metroid, you can't go wrong with that.

While I've railed about the price on many occasions, you've tried to continually point out that after a wireless adapter and accessories, the price point of the PS3 and the 360 aren't far off.

To be blunt, I think we are beyond the pricing issue.

What you've read from me over the past few months is quality of software. It's one of the things I've argued from the start: Games sell consoles. Not Blu-Ray DVD players. Games. Even read what I wrote above when comparing the three system. I didn't mention price point once.

There are multiple FOFCers who have said that if the games came out for the system, they'd buy it. So I disagree with you. If you have two highly touted games that live up to expectations combined with a sleeper hit, I think you'd start to create a positive buzz about the PS3. It may still be priced high, but it'll be priced high with a solid lineup of titles to choose from.

It's all opinion on this, but I've been pretty consistent with my comments on this over the past three+ months. I think when the games come, the people will follow.

Price is an issue when the exclusive games are getting 80-85 ratings. When those games are getting 90-95 ratings, price becomes much less an issue. :D

I agree that it is a games issue. That's what these things are for.

I learned a lesson with the 360. I got one a launch when there weren't any games I really wanted to play. Mine sat for months until Oblivion came out.

So, I decided to wait on games before I bought a PS3. It just so happens that I have become fully consumed by WoW since January. I don't know if I will ever get back to console gaming.

Exactly. If there were multiple exclusive games for the PS3 out there with terrific ratings like Bioshock is getting for the 360, I'd take the plunge at this price in a heartbeat. I'm sure I'm not alone in that viewpoint. With the 360 having Bioshock, Mass Effect (which looks like it is going to be a huge hit) and Halo 3 (which is certain to be a huge hit with well over a million preorders), I think this is going to be a huge holiday season for the 360 that is going to bury the PS3's chances of ever catching up to the 360 in sales.

It's going to be very interesting. Obviously, this is the 360's time to 'make hay' before the PS3 reaches a good price point and gets the system selling games in place. They really need to stretch out the lead while the PS3 still has slower sales. I'm not sure it's all that shocking that the 360 has more games with big ratings (6 for the 360 vs. 1 for the PS3) as the 360 is a year ahead in the console life cycle. The PS3 developers are still feeling things out while the 360 developers are hitting their stride. The PS3 will likely have a similar string of titles with FF, MGS, MGSO, and GT all slated for release next year.

That can be said for just about any console launch, not just the 360 and PS3. The games are sparse and lackluster.

As far as the PS3, there's little reason to purchase right now unless you want the 60 GB with the EE. Otherwise, best to wait for a better price point early next year IMO.

Similarly with the 360, I'd be apprehensive to buy a system simply because the 'old' systems are still being sold. They've said that the new systems should be available once the old ones are out of stock around the end of the year.

The biggest difference though IMO is that those titles for the PS3 will be competing against the next group of AAA titles for the 360 while the current (and near release) 360 AAA titles don't really have that kind of competition.

Agree with that to some extent, though it's going to be hard for any 360 title next year to reach the same level. All of those games are going to move Halo-like numbers worldwide. The movement of consoles is the real importance of these games. It will be interesting to see what kind of increase in sales we see over the next month and a half with the 360 because of Halo and Bioshock.

Month and a half? Try the full Christmas season.

I agree with EF27 that all of those games for the holiday season appear to be good ones. But it's not like Sony has used all of its bullets for the holiday season already. They still have 9 exclusive titles (Heavenly Sword, Hot Shots Golf, Folklore, Ratchet & Clank, Unreal Tournament 3, Singstar, Haze, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, and Time Crisis) that have still not yet been released for the system for the holidays. Who knows which ones will be hits and misses, but there's certainly still a lot of exclusive content yet to come in addition to the other 140 exclusives currently in development for the PS3 for release beyond the end of this calendar year.

Releases of note this fall:

September 10: Heavenly Sword
September 24: Skate
October 1: PlayStation Home, Hot Shots Golf, Sony/EA/2K NBA games
October 8: Folklore
October 22: Ratchet & Clank
October 29: GH3
November 5: Mercs 2, COD4, UT3, Lego Star Wars
November 12: Army of Two, Assassin’s Creed, Kane & Lynch, Orange Box, SingStar
November 19: Haze, Rock Band, Time Crisis 4, Uncharted: Drake’s Fortune

And a majority of those are out for both systems. Sony has bullets left. The problem is they don't need bullets now. They need to shoot fire from their hands and follow it up with 20 rounds of armor peircing bullets to finish the job. (sorry, I'm playing a lot of Bioshock)

Hot Shots Golf and Ratchet should be good. But Sony doesn't need GOOD, they need GREAT. That's why Lair and Heavenly Sword (at least early impressions from the reviews I read) are so bad for Sony. They need to build up some momentum. At this point they have none and are spinning their wheels.

As EF27 said, if MS buries Sony this Christmas, the PS3 will have a very, very long road of catchup to play. I personally don't think they'll ever catch up in the US if this holiday season goes as bad as I think it will.

What would constitute MS 'burying' Sony this holiday season? The current difference is roughly 6 million units in installed base. What level would the 360 have to push that lead out to? 8 million unit lead? 10 million unit lead? More?

Okay, I did a little poking on MetaCritic about the whole review score vs time of development. The argument posted here is that the PS3 only has 1 90+ because it's had a year less development time. That is demonstrably false. Let's look at the games:

PS3:

93 for Oblivion, released March 2007 (advantage of being a port from 360)

360:

97 for BioShock, just released (extra year of development, check)
94 for Gears of War, released November 2006 (3 months outside our window)
94 for Oblivion, released March 2006 (no extra year of development, matches Oblivion for PS3)
92 for Guitar Hero II, released April 2007 (extra year of development, check)
90 for GRAW, released March 2006 (no extra year of development)
90 for Forza Motorsport 2, just released (extra year of development, check)
90 for Call of Duty 2, launch title (no extra year of development)

We'll skip the Castelvania Arcade title as mentioned earlier.

So my question is, if the extra year of development helped the 360 so much, how do you explain no equivalent for GRAW or COD2? If you are willing to drop down to 85+ (another number banteed about here), things look even bleaker, giving Resistance from the PS3 entry as the sole launch title to meet the bar, while adding PGR3 as a launch and games like DoA 4 from that first Christmas season, while Resistance on the PS3 is the only 85+ that doesn't come after their first Holiday season.

If you do the entire first year, the PS3 finally starts to make up some ground, only trailing 6-8 on 85+ titles to the equivalent points in their lifetime (assuming games released to date on the PS3, and through August 2006 on the 360), although you've still got that 1-3 on 90+ titles over the same span. The next few months should be interesting, though, as the 360 had a STRONG second Holiday season, adding games like Splinter Cell: DA and others to this mix.

This whole "extra year gives a big nod to the 360" just does not hold water. If anything, PS3 development seems to be lagging 3-6 months behind equivalent-rated 360 titles. This sure does back up the "PS3 is harder to develop for" case though...

I'm not even sure MS would need to increase their lead over the holiday season to bury Sony in the US. If they can maintain the existing lead, I think it's likely that time will end up doing it for them. The longer it takes for Sony to start closing the gap, the faster they have to close the gap. As it is, it's already a pretty daunting task for Sony to come back and the longer it takes for that comeback to start the more daunting the task IMO.

Oh, I wholly disagree with that. The PS3 is making up a steady 15-20K units a week in Japan alone. And that performance is considered disappointing at this point. So the 360 needs to outsell the PS3 by at least that much on this side of the Pacific just to break even on a weekly basis. That sales number will increase quite a bit at some point in Japan, whereas the 360 is pretty much dead in the water over there, much like it's predecessor.

In North America, there's a lot of people waiting on the PS3. If it continues to not impress by the next holiday season, then I agree with your assessment. But the fact that it's holding even with the 360 worldwide without any momentum certainly shows that there is a lot of room for growth for the PS3.

1) Japan is essentially worthless to the debate. We all know Sony will win there. not a contest. MS didn't plan on having monster success there.

2) If MS outsells Sony 3-1 with next gen consoles this holiday season, I'd constitue that burying. Sony's problem is twofold. They not only have to increase their sales, but they have to hope the 360 stagnates or lowers their sales. The longer this goes on, the worse it will be for Sony. (because MS isn't going to be slowing anytime soon)

3) It's still stunning to me we are having this conversation. Sony had it freakin made. Everyone with a PS2 naturally wanted a PS3. Somehow they've found a way to make those same users want more PS2's and Wii's. :)

Oh, I don't think there's any question that the PS3 is more complicated and is creating a further lag. I'm not sure if I'd use the word 'harder' necessarily, but many developers have forgone the effort to try to utilize the full potention of the hardware and are choosing to do relatively mediocre ports, resulting in lower scores that you mention but a greater profit on the game than they would have realized had they put more development time in it. There's roughly 15 ports that don't even use the SPU's on the PS3. That's going to result in a game that's no better than what you get on the 360 or even worse quality in some cases (see Madden 08 as a prime example). It's not surprising at all that many of the ports are receiving lower scores.

That's a very short-sighted comment. It's central to the overall console wars. If the developers don't have a large installed base in Japan, they're more likely to move over to the 360 with some of the bigger games like FF and MGS. At this point, they show no signs of abandoning ship because they know there's a cash cow available in all three regions rather than only two. The developers use all three markets to make decisions, not just the ones that you choose. It's very relevant.

In my opinion, the clock Sony is working against is how long people will continue to want an excuse to buy a ps3. First pitfall was the price point which made it hard for people to justify, and now that they did a price cut, people can still look at it and say, "there just aren't the games for it yet, but once there is..."

I've maintained since the start of this generation that Sony was willing (though maybe not happy) to start behind the eight ball to ensure that Blu-Ray beat out HD-DVD. Now no matter whether you agree with me there (or whether that is a fruitless war given downloadable options etc, different debate), they seem to have staked themselves to a pretty good lead. Now they *need* to get the games into the lineup that will sell their system (maybe coupled with another price cut). The 360 has enough killer titles that anybody looking to go one way or the other has already bought a 360 or will likely hold out until one of the two systems hits a certain price point. Sony has the built in fan base of the previous gen, and while they have certainly alienated a portion of that (and been really stupid in a lot of ways on this release), they're only a couple titles away from making a big jump in the console portion of the war.

Obviously this is just opinion and I have no numbers to back this up, but it just seems to be less and less about anything the 360 or the Wii does at this point as compared to whether they can get some killer games out to get all these potential buyers off the fence before they just give up on it completely.

Agree with everything you said there except for the price point. Even before the drop to $500, most analysts and developers were openly stating that the PS3 has to cut its price to at least $399 before people will start having serious thoughts about purchasing the console. I think that still remains true.

Your last point is spot-on. This is almost a situation where Sony is fighting itself. I don't think the competition is all that much of a factor in consumer demand. People want a lower price and some more good games for the PS3. It'll sell regardless of what the other consoles do if they just get that done. The question is whether they actually will get that done.

Insanity. MS knew they weren't going to be big in Japan. It's not like this was shocking to anyone. The only thing shocking is that the PS3 couldn't run off the momentum of the PS2 and be an immediate success. (Sony blunders allowed all of that to happen)

MS has also been focusing on exclusives and grabbing them anywhere they can. So the people in Japan aren't playing Bioshock? Their loss.

I'm not saying MS doesn't want to do well in Japan, of course they do. But do you really think they are judging the success of the console on how well it does in Japan? I don't. Not even for as second do I think that. My guess is if you look at MS projections for the next 5 to 8 years, they are hoping to make some inroads into Japan but aren't predicting any type of market share for that time period.

I agree that the size of the 360 market share does not matter because it's going to be extremely small no matter what. But the size of the installed base of the PS3 in Japan matters a lot and greatly effects what games are seen on each system in the U.S. Sony desparately needs the big franchises to be released in Japan ASAP to increase the installed base. Japan has been underperforming for Sony up until now. If they don't get some units moving by the next holiday season in Japan, you're going to see a lot of the big PS3 third-party exclusives moving to both consoles. Also, a move like that may increase 360 sales in Japan to a level that may become more than an annoyance. Sony can't lose their home-field advantage or it will affect the worldwide market pretty drastically.

That goes without saying.

Before all the pricing and timing and all of the other crap started, here is what we KNEW would happen with this console generation:

1) Nintendo would be the family system and be a distant 3rd.
2) MS would try like hell to capture some market share in the US and Europe. They wouldn't catch Sony, but they'd try to capture a big enough slice of the market to continue. They'd have no chance in hell of doing anything in Japan.
3) Sony would continue to be king. They'd sell out of the PS3 as fast as they could produce the units.

The Wii came out, caught positive buzz and exploded to the lead, a lead the other two can probably forget about ever catching.

MS released their console a year ahead of the other two and it worked to perfection. They have huge games coming out at a time when the PS3 is still looking for a signiture title. Not only did they carve out market share, they have an actual shot of winning the battle with Sony in the US. A MAJOR, MAJOR victory if it continues.

MS still sucks in Japan and will continue to suck in Japan. Only news is Sony does too. FF will likely change that. . . but who knows when that hits store shelves.

Look, you can try to spin this as lots of lazy developers all you want, but you would be very, very wrong.

Accepting that number of 15-20k per week in Japan, even if the PS3 pulls even with the 360 in other regions (which is a big if since it has been outsold in America every month), the current deficit would take over 6 years to make up. If Sony drops another 1-2 million into the hole which I think is highly possible this holiday season when comparing the lineups, I think Sony has lost this round to the 360. Of course, both consoles will lose this generation to the Wii. However, that will be a much bigger blow to Sony who went into this generation as the undisputed champ.

As for big games next year, Fable 2 looks like it will be a huge game next year and you are underestimating the number of potential big hits the 360 already has announced as coming out next year. The 360 isn't going to suddenly stop having new great games come out for it just because the PS3 will finally have some.

If you notice my comment specified the US market, so what happens in Japan isn't really applicable to what I was talking about. As Troy said, we all knew what was going to happen there. Even taking into consideration Japan, the 20K units extra in Japan will mean Sony will catch up worldwide in what a mere 300 weeks? Of course, maybe Japan will double that pace so it's only 150 weeks for them to catch up! :D I stand by my opinion that Microsoft just keeping pace will bury Sony. Increasing the gap between the sales will just hasten it.

As to your other comments, sure right now there's a lot of people waiting on the PS3 but the longer they have to wait for decent games or lower prices the more likely they are to buy a 360 IMO. I think that's even more true over the holiday season when people are really looking to buy a console and the AAA titles that go with it. A lot of those people may end up getting both consoles down the road, but the difference when all is said and done will be the people who only buy one or the other. I think the longer it takes Sony to make the PS3 an attractive purchase the less likely people are to buy only a PS3 and the less likely independent developers are going to be concentrating on developing PS3 exclusives.

Oh by the way, you can't agree with my assessment next year if I'm right because you already wholly disagreed with me. :D

edit: I really need to type faster and not get distracted since others already made all my points. ;)

Because it is storming very bad and I have a bunch of no shows as a result, I thought I'd take a quick look at the games for 2008 on the 360 that could be big hits (skipping over games like Eternal Sonata, Assassin's Creed, Lost Odyssey, etc that still have potential to be big hits in 07 along with the obvious previously mentioned games which are sure to be hits):

Devil May Cry 4, Grand Theft Auto IV, Condemned 2, Unreal Tournament 3, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, Fallout 3, and Fable 2. I skipped over dozens of announced games, but those were just the ones that jumped out at me.

Fable 2 is a "don't hold your breath" title for me after the fiasco that the original became. I can't wait for Fallout 3, though.

Also - yay, my new PS3 arrived. Impressive turnaround on Sony's part there, I will give them that.

Fable 2 will be an automatic buy for me. I thought the first one was great.

My wife loved it while I thought it was good. We'll be getting the 2nd one on release day as it's one of the few games for the 360 that she is looking forward to.

And, once again, your un-charmed life continues ;)

SI

Lair also gets crushed by the Gamespot reviewer:

The summary is that the game is a beautiful disaster.

4.5 rating.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/l...om_clk=topslot

It's, uh, a struggle. ;)

Would have been gorgeous if I could have found some way to transfer my network settings from PS3 to my flash drive and then back when I got the new unit, but I guess wireless security doesn't work all that well if you can just grab the encrypted key with a flash drive.

Forgetting the entire pricing debate, my initial concern is when the game was delayed just a few weeks before release date. It's one thing to delay a game for six months (GTA) and another entirely to be so close to the gold date and then push it back three weeks. It screams out that there are major issues with the game and they are trying to rush it out the door anyway.

Sony should make sure this game is off the back of the console box ASAP. :)

I was just going to say, IGN gave Lair a 4.9 which is about a -9.9 to them.

Most of those games will also be released on the PS3 or are even some form of exclusive on the PS3. You can do better than that.

Most of the games you listed will also be released on the 360. I was just listing some potential hits that will be on the 360.

Who cares? We all know they are secondary on the ps3. Face it, the ps3 is HORRIBLE to program on. If it wasn't for "The Show", the ps3 might have never been heard of.

Actually, as we move along, the PS3 is likely to become the primary development console for most multiplatform titles. The reason is that it's difficult to port from the 360 to other consoles, while the port from the PS3 is relatively easy. EA is already switching over in some of their titles for that reason and expects to fully use the PS3 as the primary development platform by next fall. Other developers are likely going to follow that trend for the simple reason that it's going to save development dollars on projects.

Also, there's several games better than "The Show". I enjoy that game quite a bit, but shouldn't be considered as the gold standard by any means.

Actually, I listed the 9 exclusives in the post. The rest were just for reference.

That's a shame. That's the one game that would make me buy a PS3. I hoping next year it IS the gold standard :)

Just for kicks, a few of the upcoming Wii games for 2007, since the Wii gets quite neglected in these xbox vs ps mudslings:

Upcoming Wii Releases of note for 2007:

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core 8-31
Dewy's Adventure 9-4
My Sims 9-18
Brothers in Arms: Double Time 9-?
Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast 10-8
Looney Tunes: Acme Arsenal 10-9
Harest Moon Magical Melody 10-19
Naruto: Clash of the Ninja Rev. 10-23
Endless Ocean 10-29
Batallion Wars 2 10-29
Manhunt 2 10-31
Indianapolis 500 Legends 10-?
EA Playground 10-?
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn 11-5
Super Mario Galaxy 11-12
Resident Evil: Umbrella Chr. 11-?
Mario & Sonic at the Olympics 11-?
Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Anniv. 11-?
Jenga 11-?
Super Smash Bros. Brawl 12-3
Soul Caliber Legends Q4
Rayman Raving Rabbids 2 Q4
NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams Q4
Medal of Honor Heroes 2 Q4
Geometry Wars: Galaxies Q4
Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenk. 3 Q4

I'll have to look up the word, "likely".

Exclusives for the PS3 that should be considered GOLD standard:

Resistence: Fall of Man.

OK then, that ought about do it.

It's kind of funny. Back when I was predicting the release of the PS3 to be a complete disaster, I kept hearing a lot of the same arguements you are still bringing to the table B-ball. The PS3 was more powerful, it had a better CPU, people would be making it the main development console and porting other the games over to the 360, etc.

I remember you posting a blog by the guys who made Resistence talking about 10 reasons why the PS3 would kick ass. I remember reading the makers of Heavenly Sword saying "With the PS3, we can have thousands of characters on the screen all with their own AI, that's not possible on the 360"

Well, we are about a year later now, with the PS3 still looking for a signiture moment, and I'm hearing these same arguements. Forget programming, a majority of the games released on both systems run better and look better on the 360. It's just because every programmer who makes a game for a console is lazy, stupid and an MS hack, right?

The power of the system talk is still running rampant. Yet here we are a year later and we aren't even seeing SIGNS of that power. By November of '06 the 360 was lacking in software, but it had some killer games. Oblivion, Dead Rising, the NBA2K series, Burnout Revenge. . . and of course Gears of War. The PS3's most impressive title is Resistence. . .a game that came out with the damned system.

It's a good game and gets the majority of my PS3 gaming because I enjoy the RTTS mode. I've put in a lot of hours into it. But I honestly wouldn't call it the best game as Mizzourah was calling it. Warhawk is filthy good and Resistance is a great game as well. I'm not going to bother with a full ranking of games, but those are easily top 2 for me right now.

Interesting story just up about Lair. Evidently those that own a PS3 and PSP and purchase Lair can play the game remotely on their PSP. Most are saying that it's actually a much better game on the PSP because the analog nub on the PSP allows for much better control. Would be really nice if they keep doing this for future titles for the PS3.

It would definitely be a neat synergy for people who own both.

For what it's worth, though, from reading the initial discovery post on the PS3 boards, it's "laggy as hell." If they can improve that with future games that use Remote Play, awesome. Otherwise, it might end up being a "stupid pet trick."

Figured I'd post my progress report on each of the consoles so far now that I've had some idle time with all three. Some (or maybe most) of this isn't going to surprise people who own the console in question, and this really doesn't have anything to do with the ongoing debate in these threads; it's more of a "things I like/things I don't like about each" list than a "This system is better than those systems" list...although there are a couple direct comparisons.

Anyway, I just figured it was better to put it here than to start a whole new thread with my ramblings. This list is also subject to revision if I come across other things I like.

PlayStation 3

+ Not only can you use custom photographs for wallpapers and local user icons, there's no fooling around with "image must be of dimensions AxB." You can zoom in or out with wallpapers to get as wide or as narrow a focus as you want, and the system automatically resizes images you choose to use for the user icon. That's just goofy-cool.

+ PlayStation Store uses actual currency instead of some arbitrary points system.

+ Remote Play might actually have some potential. I'd be lying if I said I weren't intrigued by the idea of playing Ratchet Future on my PSP if I'm sitting in an airport. I would imagine PS3 would need a firmware update for a low-power "on" mode to make that feasible, though. I sure wouldn't leave it running full-bore while leaving for a two week vacation.

+ You can reassign a controller to a new 'port' at any time. Good thing, as it's the only way I can get Guitar Hero II and Rocks the '80s to even sort-of-work.

+ Blu-ray playback sure looks pretty.

+ Glad PS3's got the ability to turn the system on and off from the controller, because that touch-sensitive power button would get real old, real fast.

- So why is it that if I download a demo, I have to 'install' it before I can play it?

- The competition may use an 'arbitrary points system' for their purchases, but XBLA games and VC games are sold for whole-dollar values instead of "$5.99." The extra penny is going not going to matter to any purchases that are not instant gratification, particularly if you set it up to where people are loading specific increments into the PlayStation Wallet, as opposed to "I just need enough to buy this one game, thanks."

- If you're going to design a system meant to be played on a high-definition TV, and you're going to build the battery into the controller proper...why in the name of God are you only including a 3' or 4' USB cable with which to charge said controller?

- And why has the PlayStation 3 been on the market nearly a year without a firmware update to allow the system to charge the controller while the system is in standby mode?

- Resetting the visual options if you take the system from a HDTV to a non-HDTV is a major league Pain In The Ass.

Xbox 360

+ Best online interface around. In that train of thought, the Xbox Live Marketplace is more immediately responsive than either Wii Shop or PlayStation Store.

+ Most versatile wireless controller setup of the three; you can use AA's, or you can use either of two first-party rechargeable options, or you can use similar third-party options.

+ Not only will it download in the background, you can even turn the system 'off' while you download. It enters low-power mode until the download is complete, then shuts itself off.

+ Video Marketplace makes it easy for He Who Has No TiVo to keep up with Jericho.

+ switching TVs is relatively easy, since the system won't output in HD if the 'HD' switch isn't flipped on the component cable, or HDMI isn't plugged in. None of this "hold down the button for 10 seconds until it beeps" garbage.

- There's a complete backwards compatibility file available on the Xbox website; why isn't this a download option in Xbox Live Marketplace, similar to the iPod compatibility download?

- Having to hold down the guide button for different lengths of time to accomplish different tasks is kind of annoying. Why not have either a bar in the options tab labeled 'power options' or have a little lightning bolt icon to symbolize the same thing? Make it so that the system doesn't default to that option when somebody taps the guide button, but it's there all the same if that's all Joe Average wants to do. PlayStation 3's interface is kind of sparse when you hold down the PS button, but at least you have the options to quit the game or turn stuff off both immediately accessible.

- Why do hi-def movie downloads expire if you don't watch them within three days? It's digital. It's not like you're preventing somebody else from watching "Flags of Our Fathers" if you don't watch it right away, and once you start watching it, you only get 24 hours to finish it/watch it to your heart's content before you have to re-rent it. That's...messed up.

- Video Marketplace offerings apparently don't even support closed captioning, let alone subtitles. Way to completely shut out part of the market, Microsoft.

Wii

+ Quickest boot-up of the three.

+ "Channel" layout means that whatever you download is right there for you to pick and fool with. PlayStation 3 *kinda* does this, but you still have to navigate through a list instead of point-and-click.

+ You can use the A+B buttons to pick up your Channels and reorganize them however you see fit. The Obsessive-Compulsive Society of America gives that an A+.

+ Best selection of games in the 'store.'

+ Casual options for casual users, such as the News Channel and Weather Channel, web browser for people simply must use the Internet from their console instead of, y'know, the home computer.

+ Only one of the three consoles to directly support its predecessor's controllers for use with backwards compatibility.

- Online is coming, and that's great, but rather than go the Xbox 360 route, where there are controls that give parents the ability to restrict the level of access their kids have to the network, Nintendo went ahead and gimped what network capabilities they do provide. As of right now, there's no way to see which of your friends are currently online (although I'm told Metroid will let you see if your friends have played that game), no direct friend-invite system, and no voice chat capabilities if you are playing Mario Strikers online.

- 512 MB internal storage is fine for Wii games and current Virtual Console offerings, but at some point, much more storage is going to be needed, either for online downloads (Guitar Hero/Rock Band/other games) or Virtual Console offerings (in the near future, Neo*Geo; what happens if Saturn or Sega CD get added?). There's an SD card slot, but right now, you can't save directly to that or load directly from it.

- Is there a good reason why the Classic Controller couldn't have been directly wireless, instead of needing to plug into the Wiimote? Yeah, there's a third party option from Nyko that kind of deals with the issue...but it's a kludge fix.

? Considering the control differences between GBA and Nintendo DS, a "DS Player" similar to the various Game Boy adapters that have been available in the last three generations seems unlikely. It seems even more unlikely that Nintendo would make a Wii Game Boy Player and ignore the DS. Are they going to eschew that element of the platform entirely this generation, or are we going to see Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Game Boy Advance games reach the Wii Shop as well?

FYI.....I think you may not know how the PS3 purchases work. If you want to buy a game for $5.99, you just select the game to purchase it. After that, it will display the price and show that you have no money in your PS3 wallet. It will then prompt you for a credit card (or show your saved one if you chose to do so) and you can add the exact amount of the purchase to your wallet ($5.99 in this case). The PSN is actually better than the other two stores in this regard because they don't require you to purchase money or points over what you want or need. I like it because I don't have leftover points like users of the other two systems have.

This is game dependent. You can see which of your friends are online in Mario Strikers if I'm not mistaken.

What I was saying there was *if* they're doing it with incremental loads, then the extra penny doesn't really matter because the second or third purchase from that load, it's a sunk cost already.

Don't get me wrong, I love that they don't rely on an arbitrary points system...but that penny thing bugs me.

MJ4H - You can if you load the game, but you have no way to see what your friends are playing from Wii Home, which means as far as online games go, it's really trial and error if you want to see if anybody is currently playing.

Right, it is game dependent, not a feature of the Wii system itself. That's all I meant.

Wow MJ4H, that is quite a list. You are right that things like this get ignored in a thread like this in favor of the xbox vs ps3 mudslinging. I personally am very interested in these games from that list:

Guilty Gear, Dewy's Adventure, Endless Ocean, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros. Brawl (!!), Soul Caliber Legends, NiGHTS, and Geometry Wars.

I probably will at least rent all of those and I'm buying Galaxy and Brawl on release day.

:D (I only laugh because I cry a little inside, particularly since this is what it was like last generation talking about these things; then again, to this day, I'll maintain that the Gamecube had a far superior game lineup to the XBox- I can count on two hands the number of good games for that system)

SI

What are some thoughts on the Fire Emblem series? I see a few Fire Emblem games on the GBA and have been thingking of trying them out, but haven't heard many things (good or bad) about them.

I was going to wait until finishing Bioshock but my curiosity overwhelmed me so I got Metroid Prime 3 today, played for two or three hours and it's quite good so far. Just like in RE4Wii, Wiimote aiming shows its superiority over traditional dual analog controls.

MJ4H- I didn't see MLB Power Pros on your list, which is due out October 1 and probably my #2 most wanted Wii game behind the spectacular looking Super Mario Galaxy. Battalion Wars II and Endless Ocean look pretty cool as well.

Excellent games, I think if you'll look around you'll find that they are pretty well regarded. If you're at all a fan of the genre I think you'll like them. I've always enjoyed them a lot more than their Advance Wars game. It plays like Advance Wars except the characters are persistent from level to level, you'll level them up and such, and when they die they're dead for good(apart from the beginning tutorial sections). So that can be annoying to some, but I don't find it too hard to deal with.

I still haven't heard anything about a DS Fire Emblem which blows my mind.

I've heard that if you like Advance Wars, you'll probably like Fire Emblem so I should check out one of the games sometime.