Ooooooo. An insult!

But upon further examination...I see your point.

I believe the answer to both questions is the same, however. The answer is: to make life better. So then we have to agree to disagree?

It wasn't meant as an insult, but I do have a degree in this stuff.

I didn't mean to get drawn into this - I just always get alarmed when people posit a science v. religion position. It's a false dichotomy. Most americans embrace both.

I'm really hoping this doesnt go unappreciated. :D

Ah. But you didn't really answer my response. Both science and religion are meant to make life better for us. Do you agree with that or disagree?

Well, I think you're referring more to 'technology' than 'science' but for argument's sake I will agree.

But that is a very broad answer - too broad to explain why you think they are in competition.

Well, not to get too caught up in this whole mess, but I have heard several religious type folk try to explain how dinosuars fit into the time frame the bible gives us for our planet, which kind of is competing to me, since this cleary argues against what science tells us about the age of dinosuars.

As an easy example, why does stem cell research see so much resistance, not to mention cloning.

I prefer to think of myself as a faithful person, not a religious person. Organized religion has exploited its share of people over the years.

I believe we are saved by faith, through the grace of Jesus Christ. If we had to be saved by our works, we'd be in big trouble. As so many of you have pointed out, I've posted stuff here that calls into question my moral fortitude - which is fine. I've stated before that I held myself in contempt over my lack of discretion, and I've asked to be held accountable. But the Lord has saved far more wretched souls than my own, and for that, I feel lucky.

I do want to make one thing clear - when I share my faith here, it is not out of hate. I do not hate gays, liberals, democrats, or anyone else. I certainly do not hate anyone here on this board. If I lose my temper over a heated subject, it is because I am as fallible as anyone else, and I can be just as passionate about my beliefs as anyone else. To be honest, I've enjoyed spending time here - and I enjoy talking football and video games with you guys. If I'm beating you over the head with the Bible - it's truly out of love, and not hate. I really hope you understand that.

God put those bones there to test our faith, dude.

My religion is faith based. Its my Faith in god that insures my salvation. My salvation isnt controlled by my religion but by my faith in GOD. The lord is my light and my salvation: whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 27 (King James Version)


1.The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

2.When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

3.Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.

4.One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.

5.For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

6.And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

7.Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.

8.When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

9.Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

10.When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.

11.Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.

12.Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.

13.I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.

14.Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.


I dont believe religion is to "make life better".
I believe Bible based religion helps grow peoples faith, and faith in God spreads hope "which improves peoples outlook on life" and salvation to ALL of Gods children. Just my opinion of course.

People who put stock in passages and verses hold the beliefs that irritate me.

Those folks are also confused. And most people, even church going americans, support stem cell research. Most americans embrace both science and religion.

Gosh I love my husband! Even if he calls me up , steals my thoughts , types faster, posts quicker and writes better then I do :) . Now about them vikings.......

But Bush hesitates to fully support it in order to keep the far right religious voters under his wing.

Actually, I believe he hesitates to fully support it because he thinks it is wrong. I don't believe that is a political calculation.

Case in point - stem cell research has great potential, and it doesn't have to be embryonic stem cell research. The only problem people have with stem cells is when embryos are killed to harvest them.

We don't need to start the whole "but is an embryo a person" debate again... but you can see the point of view there.

Everything is a political calculation, for every politician. Period.

Why does he think it's wrong?

I'm sorry...


... but Mike Tice is the problem with your Vikings. That, and I think Culpepper needs some stick-um.

As those that do not continually irritate me.

Sigh...life goes on.

I don't think Bush has too many political calculations remaining. He can't run again, and it's not like he's got much of a political career after 2008.

Like I said above, I think he only has a problem with embryonic stem cells. Adult stem cell research is something I'm guessing he has no problem with.

See what I mean about stealing my thoughts???

Bush has gone against the political calculus quite a few times. Example #1: Invading Iraq, an unpopular decision.

I don't really know what's in his head, I'm just guessing. I really can't explain why people think stem cell research is bad. It's just a weird position to take.

hmmn I wish I still had an Uncle in the "booth" .

It was nice getting to go to any regular NFL game I wanted to for free basically. Just think last time I got free tickets Brad Johnson was still a viking...now he is back, maybe it time to give Vern a call... :D

I nearly said "painfully aware", but thought better of it. But since I've now been saluted, Why not?

Well my life does revolve around God and certainly not around Satan. God has blessed me with a beautiful wife and son, a good life and more blessings then I can count. But my faith allows me to attribute those things to Him. Without getting into details I believe there have been a few events in my life where there was some divine intervention on my behalf - I was in a bad car wreck and everyone walked away without a scratch - the cars were totalled but the people were fine. Some people chalk things like that up to luck - I prefer to believe there was a higher power at work. If that means I have a screw loose in your mind then so be it.


Ok, if religion teaches people to be intolerant then what taught you to be intolerant of religious teachings and religious people since you are not religious? Or is it ok to have no respect for religion or its followers because some of them have no respect and tolerance for people who practice things they oppose? Perhaps its the people who are intolerant but it's good to know you are willing to paint a massive group of people with such a broad brush. I'm curious as to how you can insult people for having faith and label them intolerant when you practice the exact same thing.

I'm also sorry you feel that religious people use their religion as a crutch. Personally, I draw strength from my faith. Where do you draw strength from or do you never have tragedy in your life? Maybe you never have had a bad day I doubt it though. Surely at some point in your life you experienced something bad - where did you turn at that point? Family? Friends? A group of individuals who share the same beliefs you do? Are those things crutches that aren't needed as well? Why do you feel the need to degrade those who have religious faith? If you don't that's fine by me - but I'm not posting that you are a whackjob and telling you that you better get to church or you're going to hell. I'm not posting that atheists have a "screw loose". If you don't believe in it that's fine but why do you feel the need to try and tear it down? Is that tolerance or is it ok because you are doing what you feel religious people do to non-religious people?

I think noone who believes in a higher power will disagree with you that all things good and evil originate with said power.

It is ignorant fucktards like this pastor who claim to know the power's intent behind each specific instance that infuriate me. Personally, I think those who claim to know such things are on a quicker path to hell than the ones committing the very sins which bother him so much.

So if you credit God with everything that's right in your life, do you not curse him when things go bad?

I dunno, maybe this:

Hooooo boy. As much as I'm enjoying the scant few people who were providing me with a quality discussion....I'm backing the fuck out of this one before I say some shit to people I'd rather not.

I admit that my flesh first cries out "why me" and after prayer and the prayers of many others I am able to give thanks for my "trials in life" because they grow my faith In GOD.

People rarely question the good things in life or even the good times.
I find I learn best the hard way, and I dont think im alone in this.

I prefer to learn vicariously. :)

Jim this is the difference between someone who believes in religion and someone who doesn't. You find it hard to accept that God could allow the Holocaust to happen - I believe God allowed his Son to go to His death when He could have stopped it. But if you don't believe that then yes, its going to be very difficult to understand how God could let all these things happen.

Then again, what about all the great things that do happen in the world? Aren't any of them above scientific reasoning? Why was your son lucky enough to survive when there are others like him that don't? Have you ever thought that maybe God touched your son and spared his life despite the difficulties he went through initially? Why could the doctors save him but not others? Maybe you have an explanation that satisfies those questions to you. For me, when my son was born the cord was around his neck. I know I spent the next few minutes praying while a team of nurses huddled around him. I believe that God helped us - we have a beautiful, healthy 11 month old baby boy now. You might find that odd but I wouldn't know what else to do if my wife and I were in the much worse situation that you and your wife were in.

I just thank God things worked out for us and for you and your wife. Is there noone or nothing that you think about in situations like that or do you just believe that the people on earth have control over everything and that when a child dosen't survive that the doctors screwed up or the child was just unlucky? For me, that doesn't do it - I believe there is a higher power at work but to each his own and that's ok with me.

Sometimes, yes, I do. I'm human. I'm wrong for doing it and I confess that to a priest and ask forgiveness. Those bad things happen for a reason - a reason 99% of the time I never find out but I try my best to accept them.

I'm not intolerant of religious people or disrespectful of them, for some reason you cut that out of your quote from me, where I specifically said it was not the person but the belief, and that I have friends and family that are devout Catholics and Christians.

Where do I draw strength from? Friends, family, myself, like you said. Your beliefs are make believe, it is pretend, a figment of someone's imagination, you are lying to yourself to keep yourself happy. I can't imagine being in a situation where lying to myself brings me comfort.


Once again, I judge people on their behaviour and on their own merits. I hang around with people who share your beliefs, we don't discuss religion and we are fine, because ultimatly they are good people. The people who have preached to me and told me I'm going to Hell? I'm not very tolerant of them.

I very rarely get involved in these discussions out in the real world, and 100% of the time it's forced on me, even as I try to shrug them off. Hell it's been awhile anywhere, since obviously people like me and you will never budge.

Ok, well if you calling them nutjobs is being tolerant and respectful then you're correct. If the church sign said atheists are nutjobs would you consider that respectful?


So because you don't believe in them then they don't exist, right? What makes you right and all religious people wrong? What if its the other way around? Telling me that my beliefs are figments of someone's imagination sounds like a very tolerable thing.


So its ok and possible for you to judge a religious person based on their behaviour even though they practice an act you think is foolish, wrong or non-existant? So why if a religious person does that is it intolerance and hate? You're right, neither of us will budge - I just find it odd that you claim to be tolerant of religious people yet then tell them that their beliefs are make-believe yet if like you say its the other way around and someone preaches to you and tells you that you are wrong that you give yourself the green light to return the intolerance you feel that person has to you.

Your opinion only. I for one happen to Agree with Gary whole heartedly.


.[/quote]

Your quote seems to lead people to form another opinion. At least it does me.

Amen.
My hats off to Gary yet again.
He debates it so much better then I.

Nuh-uh. He asked for what questions. That's the answer. I, uh, demand questions!

SI

What's 7 times 6?

That wasn't the question and you know it.

SI

Wow, what a good (albeit loooong) read.

A few points from my own perspective.

The BELIEF vs SCIENCE discussion really entertains me. If a theologin wants to convince me that he's correct then perhaps he should come up with some facts? BELIEF as someone else posted, is a personal trust in something, in a majority of religions, this belief is based on the trust that a superior being is in control of everything, however, there is no proof that such a being exists, which brings me to the conclusion that there are millions of people in the world constantly conversing with their "invisible friend". To place trust and faith in something imaginary (IE something that is not physically real) simply boggles my mind.

The RELIGION vs TECHNOLOGY discussion is settled much more simply: Technology allows us to kill more people more efficiently with less consequence to ourselves. RELIGION and most religion's intolerance and inability to accept anyone elses human RIGHT to believe as they see fit uses the tools of TECHNOLOGY to cause more death and destruction than ANY other perpatraitor(sp?). The technology itself does nothing, the people BEHIND the technology cause the suffering. On the reverse side of that, Technology allows many people to live life at a much higher level than they otherwise would (see 99% of the physically disabled) Religion does not improve ones standard of living, it is an aside to that assisting emotional comfort or damaging it, depending on what you believe and how you live your life.

I personally believe it is ignorant to not search for the true answers to any question, and as someone else also mentioned, MANY organized religions actively dissuade their followers from searching for these anwers, swathing their questions in rhetoric such as "GOD has a plan for all of us". I try not to be intolerant of people who believe, I will not however be tolerant of those who refuse to acknowledge my right to tell them to stop pandering their beliefs to me.

I think one of the largest indescresions of Christianity, and perhaps other religions as well, is the unbending belief that they have a right to push their views on others. "bible thumping" as many call it does more to damage the reputation of Christainity as a whole than any other single factor. IMHO.

Nuff from me. I'm out.

Do not EVER presume to speak for me again. You generalize as badly as those you argue against. It is certainly NOT his opinion only.

Wow. I should have stopped reading at the post where jeff almost sounded respectful of beliefs other than his own.

Now wait a second, he has a BELIEF that people who believe in GOD make him up for themselves. Why is HE in the wrong for believing this way? You have proof that GOD is real? please offer it up and invalidate his opinion properly.

Otherwise try TOLERATING something instead of judging.

Relax, will you? She's saying it was merely his opinion... not that he's the ONLY one to have it.

Ufff Duh !

Are you choosing to deliberately misunderstand my meaning or was it merely accidental? And if so...please explain why?


My statement clarified that his was merely an opinion, one I disagreed with heartily..It was not EVER meant to imply that he was the only one who felt the same....Afterall one could never READ this thread and come to that conclusion now could they??


sheesh.

I'm judging? Have you read this thread? That's the entire point I'm trying to make. He can believe whatever he wants; it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just don't think people should be going around telling other people their beliefs are foolish. I try never to do that. And I have not once in this thread given my beliefs as far as religion except to say that I thought the guy whom the article was written about is severly misguided.

Believe it or not, I agree with your comments about what you call "bible thumping." I don't presume to tell someone else what they should believe, and I don't like it when people mock other's beliefs.

As I've tried to tell you before, this is a message board, no one can read your expressions or take in your tone of voice.

"Your opinion only."

read it.

You are speaking out of turn with that sentence.

"Your opinion, perhaps. but I agree with Gary...."

THAT says what you meant.

and this is a PRIME example of why you create problems with your posts. Please PLEASE think through what you MEAN and write it so there can be no mistaking it.

Thank you, please drive through.

This is my point, you are assuming he is trying to affect someone else with his sentence, he is not. His sentence simply states that HE would never do such a thing, he is not disparadging the person for doing so.

Perhaps she should have some english lessons then, because her sentence said exactly that.

Well then you and I have very different interpretations of his post and its tone. Gary apparently felt the same way about it that I did. I think if you read through this thread and read that post again with his previous posts in mind, you might feel differently.

If not, I suppose just like every other thread on "hot button" topics, that's the way it goes.

Many kittens perished in the making of this thread.

Think of the KITTENS!!!

Stop putting words into his mouth, damn you! I'm sick and tired of this intolerance and bigotry! You bitch! May you be mounted by a diseased yak!

We must have interpreted them differently then, I read a number of posts by someone trying to explain his position, albeit in doing so he did come off a bit intolerant. I think perhaps understanding his position more than the other side, I see it more this way than the other. As much of a cynic as I can be, I still tend to expect the best of people, though I am sorely disspointed more often than not.

No I'm not trying to change anyones mind. Obviously I have pretty strong opinion of some of the backwards thinking in this world and I only blow steam off about it once or twice a year. I still believe I can respect someone, and not their beliefs. And by hanging out with them I am tolerating them AND their beliefs.

I think I'm done really arguing in this thread :).


Hmm. I find that very peculiar.

Female Yak are not called Bitches.They are called heiffers.

I wasn't referring to what you call them mid mounting. :)

I think on this you and I agree 100%. In fact, I made a very similar statement a couple pages back. ;)

What you and your yak discuss during mounting is NONE of my busines ;)

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Because he's not smart?

wow. this has been an hour of my life I'll never get back.

You're just jealous 'cause my yak is prettier than yours. :D

To suggest that God is omnipotent and omniscient is not at all the same thing as 'dissuading followers from searching for answers.'

I suspect that those who are coming down 'anti-religion' in this thread have a totally alien conception of how those who are 'pro-religion' view/think about God.

God is that which we cannot understand; there is something of the mystic in any true follower.

From chapter 7 of the Bhagavad Gita: "I am the taste of the living waters, and the light of the sun and the moon... I am the intelligence of the intelligent. I am the beauty of the beautiful. I am the power of those who are strong, when this power is free from passions and selfish desires. I am desire when this is pure, when this desire is not against righteousness."

See also George Fox or Meister Eckhart for a 'Christian' point of view.

I will now prepare to be lampooned.

what are you doing in this forum? i don't come here for your sunday school bible passage reading bullshit. i hope you get banned so i don't have to be irritated by your shit.

and don't give me this "you can ignore me" shit. i'd still be bothered knowing your bible lecturing was being posted. its mere essense would continue to annoy me.

just stop. you need to go to "Front Office Football Christians.com" and keep your shit there.

You know you wouldn't have done anything productive with it anyway. :)

Fixed it for you.


I have readily admitted my mistakes.

While handing out advice to others you might want to take some to heart yourself and not be so quick to judge others in the worse possible light whenever possible.

no, you haven't admitted your mistake of thinking you can make this place all political, all religious debate all the time.

Just curious. What would count as evidence for God's existence? I know I'm splitting hairs here, but what exactly counts as a fact? Would it be fair to say that a fact is that which can be verified empirically by the scientific method through the senses?

The first mistake was coming to A FUCKING SPORTS FORUM to talk about politics and religion. I know she needs to keep tabs on Franky, or he'll post all kinds of porn everywhere. Jeez, probably 20 plus people or more are annoyed by her now. I've never seen anyone regarded with that much disdain, outside of Bubba maybe.

ewww

It's ok, my Flying Spaghetti monster will kick your gods ass!

Am I guilty of creating this thread or merely posting my thoughts along with the many other board members? This thread happened without any help from me.
You cant handle my opinions? Well that sucks for you. You are unable to control what you choose to read? Well that sucks for you.

Your rabid spewing of hatred affects me little, if at all.

Thinking does not appear to be your strong suit. Neither is self control, apparently.
You have my pity.
And im amazed to find you in a political discussion pointing fingers, yelling about me being involved in a political discussion....who made you FOFC police?
Im very willing to discuss football, but I am also very interested in others opinions in threads like these. So sue me. I guess women with political views threatens your manhood *cough* somehow?

Wow. I walked in very late to a very strange party. But here's my two bits:

1. Anyone else picture a certain husband and wife tag team banging away zealously on their respective computers, leaning over to slap some sloppy high-fives as they w00t their way through another greeeeeeeeat evening doing the Lord's work online?

2. So New Orleans, Vegas, San Fran, and New York are the really evil cities, eh? Whatever happened to Amsterdam? Or Bangkok? I heard that one night there and the world's your oyster. And how did Newark, or Detroit, or Jefferson County (inside Missouri joke) escape judgement this long?

3. I had a heavy dose of organized religion earlier in my life. What mainly turned me off so much about it was the digression from the essence of Jesus' teachings (love one another; tolerance; forgiveness) into the finger-pointing clamor of an endless stream of moral hypocrites. Many (not all) of those presumably representing Christianity in this thread are a stark reminder of that.

4. Oh, and here's some scripture for you: Judge not, lest you be judged. Luke 6:37

Greatest. Post. Ever.

your nonsense and religious rhetoric annoys me. others share your beliefs - the fucking mod of this message board is a religious leader in his community!!! - but we all show a general love of sports and a willingness to have a good time. you show none of that. you just want to stir the pot and wrap yourself in the inevitable "interesting" debate that ensues from making your religious right comments.

what you seek to do is akin to me going to a cooking message board and insisting on making video game related posts. you can't turn this place into something its not. the political/religious banter that goes on here is just a side act. it's not the main draw. we're just biding our time till the next FOF game. that's all. at that point you might not find this place interesting cuz no one will care about what your God does to sodomites and others who reject Him.

you're not even cute annoying where you could be quasi-tolerated, now you're just annoying annoying.

It just seems so convenient. Present the inexplicable as fact - throw in a father sacrificing his son and a world begun with the ultimate sin - someone searching for knowledge. It just doesn't make sense to me. I suppose it never will.

It's fun to discuss, really. I get a kick out of it, because it seems like such a manipulative system. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Of my close friends, the only other atheist is my little sister. I married a PK. We get along just fine. These things get blown up into fundamental differences only on message boards.


I'm okay with saying, "I don't know" sometimes. I prefer that to inventing a supreme being that's essentially a cover for everyone else's "I don't know" in addition to mine.


I don't know. No one was praying in that room, that much I do know. I think it's more attributable to the skill of the doctors and his general strength than any mystical explanation.


I'm glad it worked out. And, honestly, if I were religious, there really isn't much for dad to do in a situation like that other than pray. If I had thought there was one scintilla of a chance it would make one ounce of difference, I would have. There are atheists in foxholes.


I thought about what I could do to help, though not having medical training that was limited. I took control of what I could - coaching my wife, talking the doctors into giving us more time before the C-section. They said I might have helped save him just doing that - I certainly stopped the C-section, they were prepping for it.

Yes, I feel there are bad doctors, good doctors who make mistakes, and unlucky parents. Some are very unlucky, like my brother-in-law. Just when they were starting to hope that maybe Noah had beaten the odds, he died.

There's just no evidence of a supreme being. There are people like Franklin's wife, who can quote a lot of scripture that talks about this. But ultimately it's only scripture, and it has to be taken as fact entirely on faith. I don't have that faith. I never will.

Let me guess you entered this thread to discuss the opening week of NFL games???

No one did. I am, and you're done here. No, not for any specific post. You are done because you are divisive, add nothing to the community, and have done nothing but stir up controversy since you got here.

I was raised in a Christian home. But as I learned more and more, I realized that I just didn't buy it. I started to wonder. Why is this religion the right one? What about the other religions taught aroundthe world? What makes us righht and them wrong? What about the Greeks and Romans who worshipped multiple Gods and were convinced that the sun was carried across the sky in a chariot?

Why should I presume that the religion that I was taught is the right one? Especially when the bible teaches things that I don't believe are scientifically possible. Believing that God created the earth in 7 days is like believing in the chariot pulling the sun. It's a fantasy created to try to explain the unexplainable.

Shitstorm in 3..2..1...

If this is the criteria, you have a lot of banning to do. ;)

i was gonna make a comment to capsicum, but now i see it'd be useless.

if you're reading this, hun, better luck next time. you should learn to play nice with all the good little girls and boys, believers of God or not. :)

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by now, but this is b.s. She didn't start this thread, and she didn't post anything more divisive than anybody else.

Better ban me while you're at it. I'm not going to have anything to "add to the community" here anymore either.

I hope you guys enjoy your little closed-minded forum. I give up.

Good-bye. Would say I'll be missing you, but that'd be a lie.

wow. i was just going to post on what the over/under for Franky's reaction would be, but I guess it was that fast.

i ditto what Homer said Franky. I'd say I'd miss you and it's a loss, but I think that ever think she showed up here you havn't been the old Franky and frankly it's not much of a loss.

SNIP!!


*sends SD a cookie*

Franklin, trust me, let this blow over. head on over to the Falcons/Eagles thread, chill out, talk about how bad the Falcons offense is, just change the topic. i'm making this appeal to the FN we all want back.

Honestly? I would need an introduction and some personal first hand verifiable examples of his power. I'm a real skeptic, it would take a lot.

Clothes minded?

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Index.htm

Can you truly be surprised? Ever since she came to the board you two have been tilting at every possible windmill, riding around on your moral high horses and scoffing at the serfs beneath your hooves. Enjoy the quest elsewhere.

uh HA, the Falcons offense (Michael Vick and a cast of clowns) is outscoring the Iggles. 50 rushing yds tonight for the Igs.

This thread needs wrestling music.

1st down Eagles at the 2 min warning!

To be brutally and bluntly honest, FN.

Since she started posting here, you've changed. A fucking TON. And not for the better, in my mind. I've rarely found a thread you've posted in lately where I simply don't say "who the fuck IS this?". We've had many a religious/political discussion before these last few shitstorms, and not until the woman started coming here did you act like this.

Either I didn't have the slighest bead on you, or you've done a total 180.

I don't think you can say that you 'never' will, but I agree with you on proof. Proof in faith is not material. You won't find it in a science book...or even the bible.

It's similar to love. I love my wife and my kids. I can't prove it scientifically, but that intangible connection exists.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, until you make that connection, I understand how it simply doesn't seem real. Just like we didn't love our wives before we met them. It's not something you can force, it's not something you can fake, and I believe we all have every right as human beings to question the existance of a higher power. And I don't believe God takes away points for us not believing based on the information we have.

But believing in God is a leap of faith. It's irrational, like love, it doesn't fit into the boundaries of logic or reason.

Personally, I believe in God. But while I have made that connection with God, I have not made that connection with any church or religion. I am a natural skeptic of man's motives when it comes to religion. I'm just not buying any of it. There's too much variation and differences for me to believe any of it is anything more than different sales pitches.

But unless science can prove God doesn't exist and the very first universe was created by a particle of dust exploding in a worm hole (or whatever), I place the burden of proof on the scientists.

The FN we know and love is never coming back HA. Relationship Franklin entered FOFC and he KILLED Independant Franklin forever. :(

CAN WE PLEASE BURY THIS THREAD NOW!! OR AT LEAST STOP POSTING RELIGIOUS DEBATES IN IT!?!

please maybe?