Do you think you actually proved a point there?

Artest didn't go into the stands looking to defend himself - he was looking for revenge, which makes him just as guilty as the guy who threw the beer in the first place.

Both of you stop it right now. This board has never had conflict and we arn't gonna start now.

ron artests mission is accomplished, he's torn FOFC

What a pathetic culture we live in.

Seeing the replays all over ESPN again, I do have to say Jermaine O'Neal had incredible cheap shot on that guy. Security was about to apprehend him and O'Neal could see this. He came in on an angle that would make it hard to miss and he hauls off and clocks him. That was bad.

Worst scene though, seeing the kid crying while his brother who probably wasn't much older consoled him.

Actually ... legally it does. Even the cop on sportscenter said it's considered self defense.

thats a cop who said it. find a good lawyer and what he says won't matter. now i don't know much about law, but in my law class in school, we talked about how you have the right to defend yourself within means. in the case of jermaine o'neal, he hit a guy already on the ground with security on him. that is not within means.

but with artest, they have evidence apparently that he hit the wrong guy. so throw self defense out the window, because what exactly was he self defending?

everyone involved in this are idiots. its that simple.

i won't single anyone out anymore. if they were involved, be it players, coaches, fans, they're morons and deserve WHATEVER they get.

Ben Wallace and the Pistons' fans are completely to blame here. I'm agree with the ESPN guys any player in the league would react the way Artest did after being hit in the head. If the NBA really wanted justice Ben Wallace would be suspended and the Pistons' fans would be banned from the stadium for a week.

The worst thing is though, the huge guy that attacked Fred Jones looked like it was the little kid's dad because when hes crying you see the big guy coming right next to them and talking to people around them. Yea everything is bad when you go into the stands, but I hate to say it but when Artest hit that guy on the court and then O'neal hit the guy, i laughed pretty hard. Honestly, what kind of common sense does that guy have to start shit with a 6'5 250 pound guy that could beat the shit out of you in a heartbeat? You have to be completely drunk off your ass or completely braindead to do something that stupid when you know he is pissed off and will hit you. Common sense is a wonderful thing to have, and this guy had none whatsoever.

How many times have you seen players in the NBA do something like that, or throw a punch, and it stopped shortly after. I am guessing a lot.

What the fans did after was totally unforseeable.

And to say no blame is on Indiana is also a joke. Why do you think in a war we don't just send in one guy at a time to take on an entire army, because they'd get slaughtered. So why should one guy go into the crowd, swinging at everything he sees, not even getting the person he's after, and not bare any of the blame?

Granted the guy he hit was looking to be talking shit, but he didn't throw the bottle. So if that was you, you'd tell me that "eh, Ben Wallace is to blame. Don't worry about it Ron."

I highly doubt it.

I agree the first time he got it I chuckled because he deserved it. But points proven. Now he's on the ground, security is around him and O'Neil just coldcocks him. That's uneeded and unessecary.

Theiy're showing the game replay on ESPN late night. Watching it right now. This should be fun (I missed it when it actually happened).

CR

Definitely unnecessary. But why go on the court, thats the stupidest thing you can do in the middle of a fight, especialy with Artest who you know will hit you if you talk shit to him. That guy got what he deserved from Artest for sure, and JO just got in a good shot for good measure, to keep him down. Stupid, stupid fan. Stupid, stupid players.

Hey, you try living with the stress of paying $356,000 per week in child support to 12 different women for 10 kids... That, is stess that would build some aggression!!!

The Pistons sure do have classy fans...They should've just let Artest run wild in there. Those fans deserved beatings. Especially the ones who ran onto the floor.

The thing is, these are guys out there who are pumped up, full of adrenaline, and competing like crazy. And you expect them to make sound, rational decisions?

Whatever. Those fans were a compelte disgrace. Give Artest 15-20 games, O'Neal 15 games, Jackson 15 games, Wallace 2 games, and be done with it.

Prosecute as many of the fans that can be identified as possible.

O'Neal rocked the guy. Good on him. Artest rocked the guy. Good on him.

ESPN is right.

That was bad...Jones wasn't even doing anything. Detroit's org. has somne issues. From the CEO to the fans.

Does this mean that you will all stop calling British footy fans hooligans now?? ;)

The police offer said self defense was allowed saying that someone throwing a chair is self defense, I don't remember hearing him say attacking someone who threw a cup of beer qualified, much less attacking a random fan in the stands.

Obviously this is complex to start with the issue of "how much does a player have the right to defend himself". In an attempt to lighten things up, anyone else surprised 'sheed was actually trying to break up the fight and not start one of his own?

If you think he has no right to defend himself, then what's Artest supposed to do when he's trying to cool down over there on the table while a fight is breaking out and, as can clearly be seen- there is no security in that part of the court. If there was enough security over there to deter these jackasses in the crowd, this never would have happened. It's one thing to not react to a fan saying something but clearly these guys were assaulted.

It gets even moreso because clearly every fan out there was viewing this as their chance at a giant paycheck from the NBA. I know some people don't care about that aspect, but, really, can't intent be taken into account here.


Personally, I hate nets at baseball games to protect fans from foul balls (not that I ever get to sit down low except the time we won the seat upgrade contest). Given the choice, I'll take the risk of getting clocked in the head with a foul ball for a better view of the game. Clearly others don't feel that way and, of course, have sued so my view is obstructed. Who's rights are being infringed on?

Back to the above, I've mentioned that security is culpable. These things also contribute to it (too much beer, fans too close, etc). But at what point do you draw the line? Does everyone have to be 5' away from the court? 10' away? At what point are you risking the livelihood of the business you are trying to "protect" with these rules? And, really, if these fans were acting as they should have- none of this would have happened so why should the association be held accountable for a role that, at its worst, was enabler and at best, was beseiged by an unpredictable event.


Ok, that's certainly a lot of horse crap. Too much stress and whatnot is just a giant pile of crap cover. But, as I stated before, at what point do the players have a right to defend themselves? Over half of the people on the ESPN poll said "Artest should have let security handle it". Well, clearly they had done such a great job so far- after all, the field wasn't littered with fans and garbage and the crowd control had been well done. Wait, no it wasn't. But going back to the above, it's not like the Pistons can afford to have a security guard for each seat or even each 20 people- that's just not feasable so what's the answer.


Has there been anything more on this or it is just Jim Grey blowing smoke up people's arses again? If there's any validity to this, credentialed guy needs to have them revoked and be looking for a new job. Guess it gives a whole new meaning to "being part of the story".


A lot of people are breaking this down to "what if beer was thrown at you" and falling on the two sides of that. Near as I can tell, beer's never killed a person by being splashed on them. But when blunt objects (bottles, clothing, chairs) start flying, these can actually cause serious injury and there were few officers around to stop it. In my minds, that's where it crossed from the typical "you'd better sit your ass down on the bench" to "doesn't a player have a right to defend himself because security isn't doing a thing". Clearly others disagree.

A few other things:

* Nothing like Sportscenter trying to score some cheap points with the "but the clear losers were the young fans". Yes, why doesn't someone think of the children. Now lets all sing kumbaya with Dr Phil and Oprah, you asshats. Someone give me back Keith and Dan or even someone like Charlie Steiner who was more interested in reporting sports and not the load of crap SC has become.

* There was an incident on the court where two fans approached one of the Pacers (I forget who, Artest, I think) and he just clocks one of them. Any legal experts here who can do more than speculate on the legality of that. Considering the incident already (basically, a melee situation) and the fact that these guys were looking like they were going to start something, can this still be considered self defense?

* What's really going to make me sick about this whole matter is that someone is coming out of it with a paycheck. Now, I'm sure there were some victims here, but anyone who was provoking anything should be sent home without a dime, whether they were taunting or throwing stuff. You allow someone who was taunting in the middle of a brawl to get off because he was less culpable and you send an even worse message for the future: "Just dare your drunken buddy to start a fight and then it's jackpot time for you two".

* I saw the end of the replay of the game after I ran out of Futurama DVD to watch last night :( and I couldn't help but laugh at Bill Walton saying "And Artest has played a smart, controlled game so far" with about 2 minutes left to go. He's up there on my Mount Rushmore of "Announcers who make up for being dumb by being loud" with John Madden, Dick Vitale, and a yet to be determined fourth.

* I feel very dirty in that I agree about 90% with what JiMGA was saying here right down to the "I really dislike NBA players these days but I feel they were mostly in the clear for the incident in the stands (what they did on the court, well, the league will deal with that accordingly). Eww... ;)

Maybe I'll feel differently tomorrow (i.e. today, but it's not tomorrow until I've gotten some sleep) but right now, this is almost completely on the fans in my mind.

SI

I don't know where you guys keep getting the idea that Artest attacked the wrong man. I've watched Sportscenter 2 times, and they haven't mentioned it once.

Neither has any of the local news stations.

Soo...you think the NBA will move seats back in the arenas and risk alienating the fans who purchase the most expensive seats in the house?

For what it's worth, here's my take:

1. Wallace clearly overreacted to what was a borderline hard foul/cheap shot.
2. Artest was being a ham/jackass (some of both) on the scorers bench.
3. Artest had no justification for going into the stands. He's a professional basketball player. I understand how it happens but if a football player went into the stands ever time they had a beer poured on them, they're be a riot at every Ravens and Raiders game. As an athlete, you are taught and have to learn to ignore it. And what you can't ignore, you ask security to handle. That's your JOB.
4. Stephen Jackson has even less justification for his actions. He should probably be sued and rightfully so.
5. Artest is moderately justified in throwing the punch at the guy on the court. However, I don't think you can definitely say that he was being attacked or was in danger. Those particular fans shouldn't be on the court, but it was Artest who threw the first punch.
6. I think there is some justification for Artest also being sued as it created an atmosphere were bystanders could have been caught in the middle and hurt.
7. After watching the tape, I could see where a fan would flee to the general safety of the court and out of the stands.

As far as I'm concerned, Wallace needs to be suspended for 3-5 games.
Artest and Jackson should have criminal charges brought against them.
Artest and Jackson should be suspended for 10+ games.
Some Detroit fans should also be charged and arrested.
Those same Detriot fans should have their ticket privledges revoked (those look like season ticket seats).

I said random fan because from the look of things, Artest really couldn't tell who threw the cup of beer. He didn't react until it hit him or just before it hit him, meaning he didn't see it coming at him, making it nearly impossible to tell who had thrown it.

To play devils advocate... the man was on the court, and when the emotions were high, it is probably next to impossible fo O'Neal to not defend his court and his team, ect. The guys on ESPN were saying that anyone on the court deserved what they got, because that is totally wrong. That is a case where a fan physically comes after a player. Unacceptable. Also, the security had been shown to be very weak in resolve and strength throughout the fight.(the blue shirted security, the police were all right).

I work for a ship supply company that has 90% foreign clients, and I regularly see strange requests from ships for various items. Back in May, the captain of a vessel sent us an e-mail requesting some movies. The first one on the list was "NBA Boxing." I don't know what we supplied to the man, but after seeing the video from last night, I'm tempted to send him an e-mail today saying, "Boy, have I got some NBA boxing for you!"

Agreed.

Does any of this happen if he isn't lying down on the fucking scores table like a kid with ADD?

WTF?

Wow, that was a complete mess. Ben Wallace was an ass for starting the whole thing but Artest and company should have never gone into the stands. Hell, Artest punched the first person that he encountered, and that person didn't even throw the cup (check out the trajectory on the cup when it hit him, there's no way it was thrown from where that person was). Granted, that fan looked like he was talking it up big time, but that is not justification for attacking him.

Wallace needs about a 5 game suspension.
Jackson should get about 10.
Artest, he needs to be sent packing until he gets some serious psychological help.
Detroit should get a bit of punishment Italian soccer style. Maybe 1 or 2 home games played behind closed doors should do it.

Agreed, but take it back a step further. Does any of this happen if Ben Wallace doesn't over-react like some 2 year old who just got his favorite toy taken from him?

He overreacted, but the foul was a 100% cheap shot, no doubt about it. Still, that's at least something taking place on the court.

Artest acting like an ass and giving the fans a target escalated the whole situation.

I don't think it matters. Ben Wallace was an ass, but it didn't force Artest to go into the stands. As I said before, everyone is wrong here - the fans, the Pacers players, the Pistons players, security...everyone.

Jermaine O'Neal should be rightfully sued for the sucker punch on the fat guy. That was nothing but a cheap shot.

Good for Artest... do I think he should be suspended? Yes. DO I think he should be in jail? Yes. DO I think I would have done the same thing he did? IN a heart beat. If someone is going to be a pussy and throw a beer at me because he thinks I can't hit him, I'm going to beat the living shit out of him. If someone is laughing and I have reason to believe he threw it, he's dead. Period. It doesn't make what Artest did right, and he should be punished for it. But to think anyone wouldn't have done the same is idiotic. The fans think they have a right to do whatever they want with no fear of reprocussions... I have no problem with them being shown their place.

I say Artest for 30 games.
Jackson for 20 (he may have protected Artest, but even so)
O'Neal for 40 (his was the worst of them all, completely unprovoked).
It looked like a Pacers assistant was punching the fat guy while he was on the ground, so fire him.
Wallace for 15 (he is the reason it escalated at all, make it a point that you can't do what he did without consequences.)

A few observations:
1. It was a hard foul. Not cheap IMO but very unecessary given the score and thime remaining.

2. Wallace overreacted big time. With all the calls for players to control thier emotions and to act in a civilized manner, the FIRST person who should have done that was Wallace.

3. Artest was calm before the first beer was thrown from the stands. I don't care if he was lounging on the scorer's table, in the middle of the court, or wherever he was no longer an active participant in the problem at that point.

4. I am still trying to figure out why so many of people seemed to feel like it was okay for the fan a beer at Artest. Artest is a jerk. His history has been well chronicled butdoes not give a fan the right to throw objects on the court or at the player. If the beer does not get thrown from the stands, the WHOLE incident does not happpen. This is not cute anymore (if it ever was). It is not funny. The throwing of beer, batteries, etc is asinine

Pretty disgusting display there. I think Detroit should not be allowed to sell alcohol for a few games along with the appropriate suspensions for the players.

I've said it several times, and will say it again, fans belong in the stands, players belong on the field(court) and unless your life is in danger, you don't go into the stands.

I just have to way in on what is one of the worst moments in sports that I can remember.

First, Everyone involved in this is somewhat at fault. However, if one player and that is Artest shows some restraint none of this happens. What should happen... First the police should identify and charge as many fans as possible with insighting a riot or what ever charges they can find. However, the players involed also should be charged. This act goes off the court and should be handled just as if happened on the streets. The players should not be above the law here.

What should happen as far as the NBA? My thoughts would be that Artest and the second player (can't remember who) into the stands who started throwing punches should be suspended for 1 year at least. Artest might should be out for good since this is not his first problems in the NBA. Other player should be reviewed as well. Some looked like in the video that they were in the stands trying to break up the fights. Those players should not be suspended long if at all. I would need to look closer at the video to make a judgement on that one.

For those of you that are going to think that is long. Think about it this way, if you were on the job and your job involved working with the public and you had an incident where someone threw a beer at you. Try throwing a punch and see how quickly you are fired from your job.

ESPN is saying that any player would do the same thing and I tend to agree. I would probably do the same thing in the moment as well. If someone throws a beer in my face I am probably going to come up punching. However, does that make it right ? No... I would be just as wrong in that case as Artest is here. I would have to pay for my actions and I think the players involved here should too.

I think a lot of people are letting Wallace off lightly on this one.

Artest gave him a hard foul. Maybe unnecessary, but there was a clear overreaction on his part. The cheap shot he gave Artest was uncalled for. Artest walked away and the players broke it up. If Wallace exits stage left right then and there, this thing probably comes to an end.

Instead he continues to go after Artest. He refuses to be restrained by his coaches or his teammates. Then he fires a towel or a headband at Artest while Artest was laying on the table. The cup of beer was thrown very shortly after Wallace made that move and I don't think that was a coincedence.

After that, adrenaline took over. Once Artest was hit with a face full of beer, there was no way this was going to end pretty. A fan has no right to do that in any circumstance. It's easy to sit here and say "that was just a beer, he should walk away", but if you were a player in that position, or his teammate, what would you be thinking?

Fans coming up within ten feet of you throwing beer. . . are you supposed to believe that's where it will end. And then after you've been in an altercation, to see fans walking toward you talking smack, what exactly should your reaction be? O'Neal gave the guy a cheap shot, but in his mind all he saw at the time was Artest and the fan in a fight and Artest going backwards. Again, it's easy to sit here and say "well, the guy was on the ground, security is close, it's over" It's another thing to have adrenaline rushing through your body, not have a perfect angle to what was going on and have to make a decision.

At the end of the day, Detroit and their fans are to blame for this. Wallace deserves a major suspension not only for starting it, but also fot helping fan the flames for as long as he did. Artest, O'Neal and Jackson deserve ten games or so for their parts. The Pistons organization deserves a MAJOR fine for the lack of security and the lack of the PA making timely announcements for it all to stop.

And while Artest is psychotic most of the time, his reaction was what it should have been IMO.

There is no way the Pacers players should be suspended for one year. No freakin way in hell. You admit you'd react the same way. 95% of us would. It's wrong, fine. Suspend em for ten to fifteen games. But don't get all holy and mighty talking about year long suspensions that aren't deserved.

And I agree with you. I think if one player shows restraint none of this ever happens. Only difference is I think the player was Wallace, not Artest. Again, not only for Wallace starting the incident, but for him staying on the court and throwing things himself.

Does anyone else feel for Freddie Jones?

He shouldn't have gone into the stands, but he was standing there, and once Artest getting punched from behind, he tried to reach over a coach and pull the fan away. Then a 300 pound guy (at least) just starts pummeling JOnes from behind. I mean, the guy was at least twice his size.

With the benefit of a night's sleep & plenty of reflection, there's one thing that really stands out in my mind right now ... the NBA will apparently do anything to focus attention away from the Shaq v Kobe matchup next month.
:D

Oh yeah they are playing a little game that day too aren't they :rolleyes:

As far the the year long suspension, I would hit them hard on this one just to let players know that they better think before they do something like this. Fifteen games as this point in the season is just a vacation.

My thought on Wallace are this. Yes, he started a fight on the court. However, things that happen on the court should be handled differently. For the incident on the court Wallace should get a suspension. However, as far as I am concerned these are two separate incidents. The fight on the court was over. The fight that was started in the stands was all on Artest.

I'm going to agree heavily with the points about security being made. The courts will focus heavily on fan/player culpability, but in my mind the main lawsuit in this should be against the arena. Players/fans need suspensions and possible jail time, but financial responsibility belongs with the arena and whoever owns it. The replay I saw last night showed very little security until the stands brawl got into full swing. Security should have been courtside as soon as Wallace refused to let the oncourt incident die down. Artest should have been trying to leap through a wall of security to try and get into the stands. This was a complete breakdown of the security staff, plain and simple. It's their job to deal with and break these kinds of things up. Heck, even New York was smart enough to have riot police on hand and close to the field during the ALCS, and that's WITH a wall between the fans and the players.

Why were there still fans around the entrance to the visitor's locker room as the Pacers tried to exit the court?

The big question in my mind: incompetent security or insufficient security? Did they have enough people on hand to deal with a large fight, or did they just botch it and not react fast enough?

I thought this too but it looks like the guy who attacked Fred Jones was wearing a tie, the guy with the kids was wearing a similar color shirt with some sort of logo on it. I might be wrong though.

one more thing i pondered..

for anyone who says they'd go into the crowd..

you're telling me that if someone threw something at you trying to provoke you, and you knew there were (lets scale the number down to the amount of people in that are) 300 of them, and just you and 10 other guys. you're honestly telling me you're going to run into the crowd and fight?

yes, the people who provoke you are pussys and assholes, and yes you ought to be pissed. but if you get so pissed that you throw all logical thinking out the window, you have some severe pyschological issues. you know what, it happened. it happened in the NFL and i didn't see any Jag players run into the stand, they all got off of the field, and these are much bigger guys, with lots of equipment, and they left the field.

it was just ugly. everyone is at fault involved and everyone deserves what they get.

I must admit I was impressed by Rasheed Wallace, he was trying to stop everything when it was on the court and in the crowd. Where was everyone else?

lol. the morning after speculation is unreal. i doubt this is true at all but i felt i might as well throw it out there because you never know, it could make national headlines.

i heard that people are saying now that the guy on the floor was from the make a wish foundation or some such group, and that he was mentally challenged.

again, i honestly doubt the validity of this story, but after what actually did happen last night, anythings possible.

I bet he was remembering that game in Portland very vividly.

When the NBA puts the basketball courts into cages and takes away the referees and allows the basketball players to do what they do best (talk trash and fight) then I might turn on a game.

Until then, I'll just keep playing with the rabbit ears on my TV to get good reception of the Puerto Rican Basketball Association, now those boys can play some ball. I'm sure the Pistons and Pacers would both agree.

:)

Good post. It also seemed to me that Artest was "done" and walking away when that stout dude came up to him with his arms ready to throw punches. He got what he deserved, and so did his friend.

I haven't (and won't) read through the whole thread, but I just want to say that almost all of the blame needs to be placed on those three fucking punk-assholes, Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson.

Artest isn't the first player to have beer thrown on him - he is the first to walk into the crowd and start punching some dork who didn't even throw anything in the first place!

And then how can O'Neal and Jackson justify their actions? "Self-defense"? Bullshit. They wanted a fight so they found one and just started randomly throwing - in no way shape or form were they trying to pull Artest away from the crowd or defend him.

And then the most pathetic thing, was when Artest walked up to a fan who was standing on the floor (and perhaps might have made a comment, but made no physical or threatening gestures whatsoever towards Artest), and just started swinging.

Artest should be done for the year, and O'Neal + Jackson 20-30+ games after that display.

That's the guy who had the "Credential" that Jim Gray was talking about...I wonder who it is?

It's not separate, IMO, because Wallace incited the crowd with his hijinks. Artest did the right (albeit very dramatically) thing in laying on the table, and not reacting to Wallace. Wallace kept making a stink, and incited the crowd.

It looked to me like the guy who got punched by Artest was run up looking for a fight, and was then shocked to see Artest turn to him. You don't run towards a fight and then cry foul when you get punched.

Note: I'm not defending the fans. I'm saying Artest is a punk who is getting off WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too easy in this thing.

In the court of public opinion, maybe (I'm of the opinion that he shouldn't be punished too harshly...)...but I think the NBA will be a different story. Let's not even mention legally.

So how far do we go before a person can act to defend themself? Throwing chairs? Throwing sharp objects? The fans wanted a fight, and the players reacted. Please, do not place all the blame on the players. The fans are just as responsible as the players.

Pass the crack. Do you want to give Ben Wallace 30 games too, because none of this happens without him acting like a little girl.

I'd love to see the NBA treat Detroit like UEFA did AS Roma, ban the fans.

Well, since that happened, obviously that isn't enough for some people.

The more reaction I read (not here so much as in general), the more I'm convinced that salary-envy will play an increasing role in how people respond to this.

I hate the Detroit PA announcer. Most annoying PA guy ever!!

The Pistons' organization also deserves to be fined for the idiotic remarks of its CEO following the incident.

And for those blasting Artest for lying down on the scorer's table, I'm not sure what the big deal about that was. He was getting out of the way of the fight, and not participating, and it didn't look to me like that was an unreasonable way to do that. What he did after getting hit with the beer is inexcusable, but to lay the blame on him for getting hit in the first place (which is basically what the Pistons' CEO and some posters here have done) is ridiculous.

Who walked into the stands and threw the first punch?

Who provoked it?

Throwing the beer was essentially the first punch. Artest should have gone the other way, away from the stands, but the fan who threw the beer started it.

Am I the only one who wouldn't have gone in the stands if a beer was thrown at me?

I'd rather someone consider me a "pussy" than be a lap dog who lets some dumbass in the stands pull his strings by throwing a beer. The fan wins, the fan got you going.

If that fan wants to come down and really get into it with me(or you or Artest), let him come down like a man and we will settle it physically then. But I wouldn't call it being a man when you are controlled because you can't control your emotions when you are hit with a piece of plastic.

ESPNews is running the tape at each half-hour, so I just got to get another look at this. Two comments:

- Is Ben Wallace really that much of a wimp? I finally got a good look at the foul and you must be kidding me. Artest doesn't grab him around the shoulders and throw him down, doesn't tackle him, and doesn't slam into him. He grabbed his arm and pulled it down as he went up for the shot. For as much thuggery as goes on in the NBA these days, that was nothing. I can't believe that started this whole thing.

- Most of the arrests will come from after the main event as they were getting the players out of there. The number of fans lining the railings as the Pacers were leaving that were dumping stuff, throwing a jacket, and the chair that was thrown was ridiculous. They ought to get 10 or 12 people from the video tape alone on that.

I wouldn't, either. I would be looking for a place out of range of the beer throwers.

Jackson. If you watch the tape, Artest just grinded the guys face into a seat.

As someone who has actually played high-level sports (not in the NBA, but a sport where there are/were over 2,000 spectators), I can say that you're not thinking like a person sitting on a couch, watching a game. You're caught up in the moment, etc.

You say that, but when you mix the emotions of pro sports, and what just had happen on the court, and then you got idotic fans throwing crap at you, I just find it easier said then done.

Michael Rosenberg described it perfectly:

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/...e_20041120.htm

I think his view is just a little biased.

Yes, the fans provoked him, however - that does NOT make what he did ok. Players in every sport during every game, and you very rarely see anything happen, and it's NEVER been this bad. If Artest had just ignored the guy, none of it would have happened - they would have played out the final 45 seconds of the game and that would have been the end of it.

I think the fans should be held responsible, they got way out of control, and the ones that instigated the whole thing should be prosecuted. But I also think that Artest, O'Neal and any other player who was involved to that extent, should also be prosecuted as well as face heavy fines and suspensions from the NBA. Anyone who plays any sport at a professional level needs to be able to keep their wits when fans ridicule them, it's part of the job. If some guy in your office walked up to you and spilled a coke on your head or something, yeah - you'd probably punch him. But after it was all over you would probably both be fired or severely punished. This should be no different, both parties are accountable and should be held as such.

Dola.

I want to apologize whole-heartedly to SirFozzie for getting personal last night. There was no excuse for that, and it was wrong. As angry as I was at the opinions and insults being hurled at Detroit fans, I should never have said the things I did.

You're absolutely right. The handful of fans who did this were classless. Their actions were inexcusable, pathetic, shameful, and downright criminal. That said, Artest should have never gone up into the stands. Ever. That's not what players do. You can't just wade into a crowd and start swinging randomly at people, especially if you're an athlete at a sporting event. Hell, if you walked past a crowd on the street, got hit in the head with a plastic bottle, turned around and started swinging at all the folks there, you would go to jail. Provoked or not. It's not an acceptable response.

The fans were in the wrong, but so was Artest and whoever joined him in going up there (unless they were trying to break it all up).

It's really a shame this had to happen. The Palace was one of the best arena in sports last year. Great atmosphere, loud, great fans. It's sad to see a handful of idiots mess it up for everyone and drudge up all this inane talk of Detroit riots, Devil's Night, etc. From a sports perspective I would find it difficult to find a set of fans who have reacted better to recent championships than Detroiters. The last four (3 Wings and last years Pistons) all went off without a hitch. It was a huge lovefest. No riots. No arrests. No fires. Nada. It was great. The same cannot be said for the likes of Boston, Denver, etc., etc.

The fans were wrong for throwing shit. But Arests was WAY wrong going up there. That's unacceptable in any sport.

Someone threw a damn chair at O'Neal, I think he had every right to defend himself. Its really easy for us to sit on our fat asses and say the players should have shown restraint and its part of their job. Its another thing entirely when you are put in that situation.

If I'm at my place of work and I have 15,000 people screaming explitives at me for over 2 hours and then one of them comes up and dumps a coke on my head, there's no telling what the hell is going to happen. You can't possibly compare this to a work situation because none of us work at place where the vast majority of 15,000 people hate you while you are doing your job.

This crap that Artest should be suspended for the season when he attempted to take the higher road is BS. If Ben Wallace lets it drop after he hits Artest, then it stops way short of where it went. Wallace incited the crowd. Very simple.

No. Comparing "real jobs" to professional athletes never works. Different worlds, different rules. That said, Artest was wrong to go into the crowd. You can't do that. That's the point where things truly got out of hand. He has a responibility to himself, his team mates, and the league to walk away from that situation. This is the truth of the matter.

I agree, what he did was wrong, but at some point security should have been able to get control of the situation. There was a major security faliure last night and that is the fault of the NBA, not the Pistons. The NBA provides security for the games and it looked like they were caught in a state of, "What the hell do we do? I wasn't trained to do this." There were several things that led to the players going into the stands. Several parties are at fault. To simplify it as Artest is a dummy and shouldn't have done that is failing to look at the entire picture (not saying you said this, but it is trend).

Maybe now fans will think twice before throwing crap on players. What I saw last night from Piston fans was embarrassing. Not only what started the incident, but those two guys running on the floor (thankfully they had their punishment doled out on national television), and then the team being showered with anything that wasn't bolted to the ground as they left.

Thanks for the article. It's another writer I can put on my list of "I'll never read another word from him again" list.

To lay this one all at the feet of Artest, when Wallace acted like a spoiled 2 year old and incited the riot by acting the way he did AND THROWING an object in Artests direction, is simply one of the most idiotic things I've ever read.

I still haven't heard anyone comment (tv, radio, paper) on the fact the beer came in right after Wallace got the bright idea to throw the towel or headband at Artest. If we are going to blame Artest for inciting the riot by going into the crowd, why don't people also look at Wallace and realize how pathetic of a move he made?

Christ, I hate Ron Artest. If he retired tomorrow to make rap albums the NBA probably would be a better place. . . But I'm just stunned people are letting Wallace get away with a slap on the wrist. This guy incited the whole thing by acting the way he did. And while throwing a headband or towel may not be a punch, he also has no right to do that to another player. Artest will get double or triple the suspension of Wallace and that's sad.

I've also lost a lot of respect that I once had for him. What a horrific display. He's lucky I'm not commish. His suspension would be damn near what it would be for any other Pacer.

Oh, I totally agree that Wallace (my favorite player) should get a suspension, and I'm sure he will; however, what he did happens during every season: i.e. - Player getting hacked all game, is losing, feels he was intentionly foul, goes nuts and pushes another player. Wallace was out of line and will get suspended. But you can't blame Wallace for the DECISION that a few ass-wipes made after the fact. You can only blame Wallace for decision that HE made. That also goes for Artest, Jackson, O'Neil, and the other fans.

Wallace, Artest, Jackson, and O'Neal are suspended indefinitely pending investigation.

EDIT: was just announced on ESPN.

Will ? I think it is already- people here seem to think that a $5 million salary means others have the right to throw shit at you and not be culpable for it.

Puerto Rico!
 

Hell yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about right there. :D :D

EXACTLY. What kind of team is Indiana going to field for the next X days/weeks/months without O'Neal, Artest and Jackson, and Reggie Miller hurt? Answer: Not much of one. Their whole season (meaning basketball, i.e. the other players who didn't throw punches or act silly) is basically more or less down the drain.

Wallace and Artest should been gone a few games. O'Neal and Jackson need to sit for a long time. Detriot fans who jumped in and attacked Jones need to be arrested and the one who made it turn into a brawl need to be arrested.

Why would Jackson get more time than Artest?

O'Neal should get 1 or 2 games, after further review. He hit a guy who was on the floor, looking for trouble. Come on the floor, whatever happens, happens.

Jackson was running around hitting people who were not attacking him. Did you not see the replay where he was just basically attacking anything that moved.

The league suspended Houston's Vernon Maxwell for 10 games for running into the stands and punching a fan in 1995. Nick Van Exel got 7 games for forearming a referee into the scorer's table in 1996. Rodman was suspended for 6 games for head-butting an official in 1996. I don't see anyone getting more than 15 games for this.

BINGO!!

One thing nobody can disagree with is that Ron Artest wanted NO part of Ben Wallace, but had NO problem running into the stands to bout with fans not even half his size. It's almost funny to watch Ron Artest back pedal while Ben Wallace bears down on him, but the minute a 5'9" white dude throws a beer at him, he's ready to scrap.

A non-basketball fan's opinion:
Players do not belong in the stands, and fans do not belong in on the playing field. Period.

The players who went into stands were wrong, even if it was understandable under the circumstances. You can't go into the stands throwing punches. You just can't.

But as for the fans who came onto the court -- they deserved what they got. You come into the player's territory, the rules change and you are fair game.

In other words... Is it hypocrtical of me to think Artest is a jerk for going into the stands, but still think that him drilling that fat fan who came after him on the court was absolutely great?

Jackson didn't hit anyone at all until a second beer hit Artest. Then he was defending Artest (and himself) from a mob.

hxxp://www.imgbucket.com/63/boomshakalaka.jpg

No, I think most people feel the same way.

Sidenote: I don't think Artest should've gone in the stands, but I really like that he did.

That dude in the baseball cap was pretty swole. He held his own with Artest.

Are you serious? He didn't have to swing on anyone... he could have pushed those people away and grab Artest... from his body language he was looking fight.

I'd like a bottle of whatever Chief was drinking last night. ;)

WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN:

Wallace gone for 10.
O'Neal, Jackson gone for 20
Artest gone for the year.
Pistons banned from beer sales.
Next Pistons-Pacers game at the Palace played to an empty house.

If Wallace doesn't shove Artest, this doesn't happen.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN:

Wallace gets 3-5 games
Artest gets traded to NBA Siberia and is suspended until then.
O'Neal and Jackson get 10.
Pistons fined big money.

Throwing a beer is one thing. Going into the stands and beating the shit out of someone is totally different.

Those of you who are citing "self-defense" are out of your minds. Give me a break. If it were self defense Artest was looking for, he could EASILY have moved toward the center of the court away from the fans. No, he was looking for a fight.

There is an imaginary wall between the stands and the court - the fans should NEVER go onto the court and the players should NEVER go into the stands. When aArtest went into the stands, that turned a bad situation into probably the most horrible moment in US professional sports.

Who's to blame?
Wallace - minor blame for the initial push/overreaction. As others have said, that crap happens all the time.
The idiot fan who threw the first beer - a good amount of the blame for what he did, but what he did was not going to cause physical harm.
Artest - He gets 80-90% of the blame for this. What he did was inexcusable. He took it to another level completely. I hope he goes to jail (but I know that he won't).
Jackson - He deserves his share too. It looks to me like he wanted to kill any number of the fans in the stands.

Blame can be spread out to a lot of people, but the players should get the majority of it. I'm surprised that most posts here are defending them.

As far as the ESPN commentators who pretty much gave the players a free pass on this - the ones I saw are mostly former players themselves, and all of them have to have relationships with players. That is going to make them biased.

If you are a professional sports player, you are going to have fans scream at you, taunt you, and occasionally throw things at you (popcorn, beer, etc.). That should not give you a free pass to go physically assault them.