Lump me in with the people who say your crazy. Just because they are down 9-0 they should try and stop winning?

You are also probably one of those people that doesn't think high school and little league baseball should keep score. ;)

No, he's probably one of the people who thought Brenly was right for getting upset at the guy who bunted to break up a no-hitter down 2-0.

Judging by Kerry Wood's success I would say it's no given he would've hit Upton if he wanted to, because it sure seems like he'd want to hit the strike zone and that isn't happening.

Somewhere Shawn Estes is rubbing his shoulder and saying "I know how ya' feel big guy"

I'm sure someone will, but I don't.

What would be out of place is if he knew it was there and didn't steal it.

There's also quite a few bits of context here too.
-- Upton is struggling terribly at the plate
-- He's coming back from an injury, almost certainly feeling additional pressure to perform as the team has struggled to a sub-500 record
-- He has to know they need a spark of something, especially when you're flat enough to trail the Indians 9-0 early.
-- This is who he plays for and it's how they play the game.

A great piece about this from what I assume is the local beat writer who talked to Joe Maddon about the whole incident. As you might figure there's plenty of good quotes in it but none I like better than this bit

"I love books. I love books. I'm a man of books," Maddon said before the Rays crushed the A's at Tropicana Field. ... "The part of this that has gone unanalyzed is the fact that that one play turned around that entire series. After that, we scored, what, six or seven runs, and that made them get into their bullpen that night, which impacted the next night, when we were able to come back from a seven-run deficit, which impacted the next night, when we were able to win that game, all from that one play.

"Everybody is talking about the book. I just like the fact that the Rays won three games. I like the fact that the Rays play hard every night. I like the fact that the Rays don't have an on and off switch. Again, it's based on whatever book you believe in."

And that ladies and gentlemen is how its supposed to be.

I think the difference of opinion is that this baseball tradition apparently believes that a 9-0 lead is 100% insurmountable. Which is just a false assumption.

I can see from your comparison that you think that there is no practical purpose to stealing bases with that kind of defecit. But I would argue that there clearly is. Sure, you're not going to score 9 runs with a stolen base, but you need to get run #1 first, and stealing the base helps a team to that. It also might help with momentum, as a sign to the team that "we're still trying to win".

I wonder if your decision would change if you knew, 100%, that the team stealing bases was motivated by trying to win, and not by showing anyone up.

If there was 1 minute left in a basektball game, and a team trailed by 25, playing super-aggressive, fouling hard, etc, that might be considered bad form because that trailing team has no possibility of winning. If it was a 10 point lead at halftime, there would be no complaints, because the game is still up for grabs. That's the difference.

The whole etiquette thing is just meh to me. So when the Patriots are up 35 in the third quarter vs some team, they should stop playing their game because they're playing that much better then them? I don't buy it.

Cleveland's payroll is what, 70 or 80 million dollars? If those guys don't want to earn it, then boo fucking hoo.

In 2003 I had to watch Detroit lose 119 games and there were plenty of instances where teams had big leads late and did hit and runs, or stole a few bases, and guess what, I didn't bitch because Detroit, and no one else, put themselves in that situation.

If Cleveland players and fans want to bitch, bitch about Cleveland constantly putting themselves in situations where they're down big late, and not bitch about the teams who're making that dagger go further and further into their backs.

But this was actually the opposite, the Indians were apparently pissed that Tampa stole bases while Cleveland was ahead 9-0. This was the furthest thing possible from running up the score, this was running just trying to get back in the game.

I'm with Detox, they are paid very well to play a game. If you don't like a guy stealing bases then do your job better and throw him out.

What makes the whole thing even dumber is they were winning the game.

Did Kerry Wood stop trying to strike guys out? Would they have not turned a double play on purpose on a grounder to second base? I think not.

Yes, it probably would. I'm an Indians fan and I think Martinez is a stand up guy so I'm going to stick up for him. If Martinez thinks Upton was showing him up and/or breaking some kind of unwritten rule, I'm inclined to agree with him even though I don't know the ins and outs of the so-called baseball etiquette book.

I'm very frustrated with the way this season has gone. You would be, too, if your bullpen consistently blew leads every night (hello, Washington fans) and you knew your team was much better than the way it was playing through 40 games. Some of my frustration has boiled over into this debate, too, and honestly I don't care about what happened that much. This is just the result of an incredibly frustrating start to the season and reading a collective bash on the Indians in the last few pages of this thread. What Upton did is really not that big of a deal to me.

It also bears noting (and I'm sure it wasn't lost on the Rays) that coming into that game the Indians had given up 9 runs or more in 7 of 35 games. That's a one in five chance that you can score enough on them right now to tie it up.

How many times have we seen teams put up 9 runs in an inning, let alone in a game. The Yanks surrendered 14 runs (I think) in 2 innings earlier this season. V-Mart is tearing it up, but apparently he's a big vagine too. You don't like somebody stealing on you, throw them out. Maybe with his RTO of about 14% this season, stealing on him is the best way to get your team back in the game.

Also note that Victor Martinez has one of the worst arms of all catchers in baseball and this was a way for him to deflect attention away from his glaring deficiency.

Ha wow. I didn't even catch that. That makes this even more absurd.

While Martinez was horrible at throwing out runners early in his career, he has really improved in the last couple of years. Last season he caught 37% of runners, which was 10th amongst all ML catchers that caught at least 55 games last year. It's also worth noting that Martinez's caught stealing % went up from 32 % in 2008 to 38% last year, albeit in about half the numbers of games caught. Still, Martinez has long since shed his reputation as a catcher that you can run on at will.

Only vaguely related, but to bring it home for me: Even though I jokingly complained about the IBB on Zimmerman during his streak, as pointed out here, you can't get upset -- the Giants were just trying to win a game.

.

That's funny. When he's played a complete season (we'll call is at least more than 120 games), he's thrown out 25, 23, 18, and yes, 32. He did throw out 37% last season in catchers who played at least 55 games because he did just that, played 55 games. That represents about 1/3 of a season (we'll say a little more than that since catchers get more days off). This season he's back to 14% and apparently the Indians have little confidence in him as they have increased his games at 1B/DH so much that he's 50/50 this season. FWIW, 27% is usually the league average.

I liked that they moved him because he can rake, and I think he'll rake longer as a non-catcher. I hate for him to be the next Piazza, who could rake and couldn't throw anybody out, and felt he deserved to catch any way.

According to mlb.com reporters, Rays are in talks with Maddon about an extension. I had no idea he wasn't under contract after this year. Good news for TB.

Haha! I think in a 9-0 game, neither side should stop trying. And while I've heard about the team with nine runs being chastised for continuing to try, I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting mad about the losing team still putting forth an effort! What bullshit by Victor Martinez.

I thought the problem with stealing bases while down 9-0 is it unneccessarily risks a base runner when you need as many of them as possible. If I was the team up 9-0, then I would welcome my opponent trying to steal bases.

As for the Brenly thing, he was an asshole. Under his logic, Arizona should have been able to do everything they want (like playing the infield deep), but San Diego has to play the "right way".

Sample size. 32% isn't particularly good (thought not horrible as you point out).

Upton is one of the more efficient base stealers in baseball.

According to the tournament rules for my daughter's softball team, they have to stop trying if they are losing by 8 runs in the 5th inning. Maybe I need to print out the box score of this game and send it to the tournament organizer.

The Indians moved Martinez to first because a) they want to keep him healthy to keep his bat in the lineup and b) Kelly Shoppach would be a starter on most teams in the league anyway.

and c) he doesn't have to throw very far at 1st base.

He's an All-Star caliber player and every team in the league would take him, warts and all.

Heh, that's what I said. I have him on my fantasy team because he can rake. But there's a reason why they've been playing him at 1B and it isn't Kelly "did nothing until age 28" Shoppach. Especially considering he only threw out 21% in his first "full time" season (400+ PA). I just need V-Mart to keep playing enough games at C to stay qualified in my fantasy league, though as a 1B he'd still be outperforming my other crappy 1B.

Nats pen strikes yet again.

Um.. wasn't that posted last night? (and the night before... and... :( sorry, ls)

Royals bullpen struck tonight. Maybe Wood can strike again, too.

SI

Dang- couldn't steal the one tonight. Wood walks the bases loaded with 1 out and a 6-5 lead but then strikes out Teahen and DDJ to end the game.

SI

Justin Verlander with another good outing. He has been as hot as anyone in the league his last 5 starts:

4-0, 29.1 IP, 3 ER, 16 H, 44 K - 8 BB

Royals just handed that one to the Indians. Botched double play ball was the difference. Ump didn't help any with the brutal HBP call that should have been a foul ball.

Despite all that, Kerry Wood tried his best to give the Royals the game. That guy is TERRIBLE.

Zack is back on the mound this afternoon at 2:00 EDT. Should be fun as usual. No reason the Royals shouldn't win today with him facing the Indians.

Funny how that Wood deal at 2/$20M was considered a steal during the off-season, and now it looks absolutely brutal.

Sad news about Scot Schoenweis' wife. Wonder if it was medical or suicide? All they would say is no foul play was suspected.

That's very interesting.

Hopefully it falls through since I really like Jake Peavy but don't like the White Sox (and it makes it that much harder for the Royals) ;)

SI

White Sox fans may end up disappointed with Peavey, I think. He is moving from the NL to the AL and from a pitcher's park to a hitter's park.

Don't get me wrong, he'll pitch better than Jose Contreras, but I don't think he'll be San Diego good.

Wrigley Field is a pitcher's park??????

Petco is...

Sorry, got my wires crossed somewhere. :confused:

Ugh...seems my Rangers were just toying with me last week. They really gotta take this one tonight against the Tigers.

I still can't wait to go to the double header vs the A's on May 29. The last double header I went to was soooooo much fun, and this time I spent extra on good seats.

And the starting rotation is now:

2nd year, rookie, rookie, rookie, rookie

with D. Cabrera in the bullpen

Greinke is just filthy. FILTHY.

Yeah, FYI- Zack's pitching a day game today. Gave up a single, sacrifice, stupid pickoff by C Olivo that went into CF and got the runner to third then K and K to end the 1st.

Royals-Indians in the bottom of the 2nd, 2-0 KC currently.

Zack ERA update: 0.58

SI

This would be awesome! :)

Wow, brutal luck for Zack in the third inning. He shattered two bats and both resulted in a bloop single. Resulted in a two run inning. Pretty frustrating for him to make those good pitches and get nothing.

What IN THE HELL has gotten into Edwin Jackson? So many people thought the Tigers got ripped off by giving up Joyce, and Jackson has looked like a Cy Young candidate (non-Greinke category) so far this year.

And of course he gives up a double 10 seconds after I post that.

Blooped their way to 7 baserunners in 3 innings I see.

Can't believe Leyland left Jackson in for 132 pitches. That is 15 more than his career high.

*spelling edit*