I was parodying one of Trump's lines.

I completely missed this one then.

He's playing stallball, hoping that the states/Congress will finally give out more of the other 95% of the $45 billion in rent relief that should have been given out months ago before the Supreme Court strikes it down.

Today's GOP line appears to be that it is outrageous for anyone, including medical professionals, to advise people to get vaccinated.

They have been trying to spread the virus for over a year now. I think their stance has been remarkably consistent from the start.

Biden rocking the tan suit today was awesome.

I agree, and I am outraged about it. Stunts like this merely concede any moral high ground, and further normalize this kind of crap. Obama did too much via Executive Order due to a do-nothing Congress, Trump just DGAF and his team were basically Bond villains, and now it's just becoming the way to do things. It's awful, and Biden should have been the guy to step in and just shit it down.

And no, I don't favor a tsunami or evictions, in practice. Pass a bill, that's what the courts said you had to do.

I sympathize with your sentiment but Congress was not able to make anything happen. Honestly don't know how hard they tried but nevertheless, it wasn't going to happen.

Biden had a pretty good excuse. Delta infections are increasing and there is a fair chance it'll get bad again (not as bad as last year but still pretty bad).

Overall, weighing the pros & cons, I'm good with it for a few more months. Yeah, eventually, people need to be removed from the spigot but not now, and not all at once. Do it in phases.

And make vaccination a condition for eligibility (and for any other government programs).

Com'on, let's get this over with and go onto the $3.5T bill (stock market needs a boost!). No way it'll end up being $3.5T but need to start negotiations somewhere with the GOP (and Dems). Ready to see Joe's bipartisanship skills in action again.

I don't want to make a bigger deal out of this than it is, because as I said before it's not as if we haven't had a tradition of abusing executive orders for 50 years now. That said, the whole point of having separation of powers goes out the window though if we can circumvent that when we think we have a good reason to. If it doesn't apply when the executive thinks they have a good reason, it doesn't ever apply. Congress not taking action just means the consequences are on them - and on the President for waiting till the last minute to a degree.


I'm also a hard no on this. If we starting tying aid to people's personal medical decisions, it's no different than having a federal vaccine mandate. Freedom is messy but worth preserving, and as discussed previously we tolerate all manner of other behaviors that endanger others as a nation.

Biden was in a no win with the eviction moratorium and just another mess Trump left him. If he does what he did he gets slammed for ruling by EO, etc. if he lets it expire we all damn well know the headlines for days on Fox News etc. would be “Biden’s housing crisis”

Belongs in the Obama thread but didn't want to bring it back.

Disappointed that Obama continued to hold his b-day party. The CDC doesn't ban big get togethers but certainly has guidelines. Debatable that the guidelines were followed but regardless, bad example to set.

Umm, no. Biden did not have a good excuse. He believed he was about to violate the constitution and did it anyways. That's kind of opposite of the oath he took to defend the constitution. Congress failing to act does not give the president a free-hand to do whatever the hell he wants.

Maybe the moratorium was a good idea, maybe it wasn't. I'm still kind of on the fence personally. But with the availability of vaccines i think it is less needed nowadays.

Getting vaccinated is not a "personal medical decision". People that don't get vaccinated are endangering others. As a general rule, you don't get to get away with endangering others in our society without consequences. If we do, I don't know about it. If government is not going to protect people's lives, what the fuck is it here for

Sure we do. We don't enforce people having a minimal carbon footprint. The impact of this vis a vis climate change is far greater than that of the vaccination issue. We don't ban products produced in dangerous sweat-shop conditions, endangering those who work there.


To serve the people and ensure they have the freedoms they are supposed to have. Protecting people's lives is part of that, but where to draw the line on freedom vs. protection is not always easy to determine. I.e., martial law could eliminate most of the violent crime we have, but I don't see any widespread movement in favor of that. We've determined a certain amount of murder, assault, etc. is an acceptable price to pay for liberties society desires.

I am totally against any kind of forced medical procedure unless the person is incapable of making their own decisions. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.

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Polio wishing it was around in 2021

We don't need the government to mandate vaccinations, except for federal employees, we just need to allow private companies to do their thing. Enough will mandate vaccinations that only the off-the-grid set will stay unvaccinated.

Well technically it still is, thankfully in fewer numbers than posters on this board.

If you think that individual people are responsible for much of the global warming problem, you're an idiot

I'm pretty sure you already think I'm an idiot, but I'll happily confirm it for you. By your definition, I'm proud to be one.

In the US, the two largest sources of greenhouse gas emissions by a goodly margin are transportation and electricity. Almost 60% of the emissions from transportation comes from passenger vehicles. Almost 40% of electricity is sold to residential use (that would be individuals, eventually at some point in the chain). The remaining that's used for commercial/industrial is largely used to produce goods and services ... for individuals. It's complicated whether you want to blame corporations or individuals there - I vote both - but certainly individuals need to shoulder a hefty amount of the blame. Better government policy would help of course in terms of what sectors we focus on. Who elects our politicians again? Yep, that's right - individuals.

No matter how you slice it, individual decisions have a *lot* to do with greenhouse gas emissions.

It probably does not end up amounting to anything electorally, but I am seeing a level of anger that I am not used to out there. Basically a lot of "We literally stopped our lives for 18 months and you fuckers won't get a shot?" type stuff.

I am used to the right wing being angry. I can't remember the last time they weren't. Maybe pre-Clinton?

But Liberals/moderates tend to be motivated by other things.

But not with the pandemic of the deliberately unvaccinated. They/we are angry.

It may amount to nothing. The 2022 midterms are still a ways away. But to the extent the GOP is trying to win back the suburban housewives, I think that the "We are joyfully putting your immunocompromised child's life at risk" message is drowning out the "The Mexican Caravan is back! And this time we mean it!" message.

I like the messaging "we literally stopped our lives for 18 months ..." message. It would resonate if it was this year. Unfortunately, this time next year we should be in the clear and it'll be the $3.5T fight and typical GOP/Dem messaging.

You really think that by the time messaging for 2022 comes out we will be in the clear?

Delta has made things a shit show and it is the summer. In my anecdotal evidence schools are requiring masks, etc...( except the states they want to kill kids) and things likely will get worse not better once winter/school starts. Trust me when I say nothing will piss off the suburban housewives more than if their kids are still wearing masks in school, having shutdown, etc...next spring.

Not all in the clear.

If it was 10 last year, and 7-8 rest of this year, I'm thinking 2-3 this time next year in the US.

FDA will have approved vaccine by then. Probably approved for <12. The undecideds will have gotten vaccinated. Pregnant women will have enough evidence (from the 2021, early 2022 births) to feel good (hopefully).

So yeah, it'll be over this time next year. We'll be in the new normal with annual covid/flu shots.

For non-Western countries, bits and pieces I've been reading indicates they are starting to get vaccines. Like where the US was in Jan. I think the worst will be over for most of them also.

You have way more faith in our fellow Americans than I do.

I don't think FDA approval will mean shit. The goalposts will just move for peoples reasoning.

I think you are living a Repub / Indy dream world this thing is far from over.

FDA approval isn't going to move the needle for most hold outs, but we will see a lot companies start to require vaccination once it receives FDA approval. Then those people will get to decide just how anti-vax they are.

I agree it won't make much of a diff for those set against it.

I do think there are undecideds that will get vaccinated. There are approx 50M kids under <11 right now. So getting FDA approval for <12 will make a huge difference.

FWIW, see other post I made about FDA approval

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

So where do you think we'll be this time next year?

Same. There will always be a new excuse not to do it so they can show their fealty to their king.

Frustrated.

"The FDA is an agency that's under Biden. Sleepy Joe and Dr. Fauci MADE them approve it."


Tucker Carlson now owes me $$$ for writing the outline for his entire show 2 weeks from now.

I think it depends more on how the virus mutates than anything else. What happens with Lambda. Are there others out there that we discover. Etc. My best guess is slightly better than we're doing now, not nearly as good as we want it to be, and we'll still be fighting the same vaccinated vs. unvaccinated battle although numbers of vaccinated will def. be higher than they are now. How many double-dip to get the boosters will be of more interest to me.

Rand Paul has already put out a video saying people shouldn't listen to anything the CDC says. It isn't hard to add the FDA to the list.

You'd expect a more nuanced stance from a sitting Senator and practicing ophthalmologist than "they can't arrest all of us!".

Cuomo is resigning in two weeks.

By the way, I think we need a "State and Local" politics thread as news such as this isn't really part of the Biden Presidency.

Eh, I think it's related. We tend to use these presidential threads for 'politics during said presidency'. Plus, he gets some credit for moving quickly to call on Cuomo to resign.

Cuomo was just as dirty as Trump. And he seemed just as untouchable. But then his party turned on him, so he lost power. That's all it takes.

Trump remains relevant only because elected GOP leaders want him to.

Maybe the single biggest myth going on right now is that the GOP leaders don't want Trump around, but they have to because they are afraid of his base. Bullshit. His base follows him because he's a winner. If the GOP had turned on him, he would have been removed from office in disgrace, and his followers would be following someone else now.

It's the same reason why the both sides-ism of "they're both the same and both extreme", peddled here and elsewhere, is complete bullshit. The left keeps kneecapping their left flank - they did it by running bland, vanilla, old centrist white guy Biden. Hell, they did it again in Ohio last week. Meanwhile, the GOP is trying to primary anyone who voted against Trump and we have governors offering up kids as "freedom sacrifices" to run for higher office. And, of course, if this were, say, DeSantis - would he be resigning or doubling down?

SI

Here's part of the problem:

BREAKING: After relentlessly attacking President Biden and downplaying the COVID threat in Florida, Ron DeSantis is now requesting 300 ventilators from President Biden.

— No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen (@NoLieWithBTC) August 10, 2021

This isn't DeSantis asking to borrow Biden's Camero.

This is the head executive of one sovereign asking the head executive of another sovereign--through proper legal channels--for materials.

Trump acted like the federal government was his personal property to dole out as he pleased. And I thought that we all agreed that that was (1) illegal, and (2) horrible.

So to see the media reinforcing that framing just to make DeSantis look bad is disappointing.

What's the point in bringing up Biden's race?

Median pay for a CPD officer in 2018 was just under 100k. That's pay, not including benefits.

I'd be happy if my boss didn't have my back if I also got that kind of compensation package.

Where do you get your information from?

Police Officer Salary in Chicago, IL

Before this descends into oblivion... police base salaries are often spartan, but many officers log overtime in scheduled ways and end up drawing a good deal more in pure salary than their published base pay. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it's so.

Lone data point, but perhaps the biggest house on our cul-de-sac is owned by a cop. Or I should say, retired cop, as he's been retired at least five years (he's not all that older than I am, I don't think). I don't know what other circumstances there are there, but he did ok it seems.

We live in a solid middle/upper middle class area. Smallest house on my street just sold for 730K. The house next door is a retired cop.

Another lone data point, but my friend's dad growing up was a forensic lab cop. And he spent a lot of evenings doing private security for a ritzy neighborhood in New Orleans. Basically, he'd get in his cop uniform and cop car and park on the main street and read magazines and "be a police presence" in the neighborhood.

Like Q, I have no real opinion on the good or bad of that practice. I do know it was all legit and above board. And b/c his car and uniform are what made him an attractive candidate for that job, one would probably best classify it as a perk inherent to the job.

Those salaries are wrong. Police officers in Chicago make $75,000 after 18 months and that doesn't include overtime and benefits.

From 2016 numbers, the average salary was over $86k a year. Pensions are 75% of your salary and you only have to work 20 years to fully vest. The contribution is also 3% less than what you pay into Social Security while receiving 3-4 times the amount they receive monthly.

It's a really great-paying job with an incredible pension for unskilled people who can't be fired.

If you have a link to those numbers I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

In 2018 the highest paid cop in Chicago was a detective that racked up over 200k in overtime.

Ron Kind (WI-3) is retiring. I always wanted him to run against Scott Walker or in 2016, Ron Johnson. He seemed to be happy enough wielding his seniority in the House.

The real threat is that this is a district Republicans could win and the Republican running at the moment is not just giving lip service to the insurrectionists, he was actually there on January 6th.

High level on the $3.5T bill coming up next. Looking forward to more details.

Sure sounds like Afghanistan is toast. Hope I'm wrong and the situation stablizes some so both parties can negotiate. But with all the Taliban wins/momentum right now, I can see everyone bailing and running for the hills (aka out of the country).

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/11/middl...ntl/index.html

It’s amazing how stupid the counter arguments were when recently the analysts said the country would fall in 60 days

Then the government pentagon would say no no no we think that they can fight and win

And the naïveté of everyone to negotiate with the Taliban…

Smh

Failure on every administrations part

Now we have to somehow save generations of women… we won’t though and they’ll be killed en masse


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This really does look like something that both parties can and should be equally ashamed of. We went in there with no real plan other than "Get 'Em!" and, apparently, never developed a plan beyond that.

I had naively assumed that we were spending our time and energy over the last two decades building up an Afghan state that could survive our leaving.

I am such a babe in the woods sometimes.

Nah, we had a plan - it just didn't work. I think there are some places where nation-building simply isn't going to succeed, because too much of the population wants to build something different. You can't force them to see the world your way.

I agree with Brian. I think that nation building was doomed to fail. I don't think there was a way to "win".

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Good point, y'all. A lot of very well meaning people put a lot of time and energy--including those who sacrificed their lives--into trying to to the right thing there.

And for me to sit behind my keyboard and cavalierly throw out that we had no plan diminishes their hard work and sacrifice. Dick move by me.

I still think that there's a lot of criticism that can and should go to the top of the food chain. Multiple Congresses and Presidents presided over this who should have handled it better. But there were also a lot of civilian and military folks actually trying to get the work done who did everything they could.

I definitely agree with that. There's no question there were a lot of bad and politically-motivated decisions made along the way. In hindsight we would have been best getting out a *lot* earlier and cutting our losses, but second-guessing is an easy game.

I think most policy makers have known this was the most likely outcome for well over a decade. I think one of the reasons we went to Iraq is that it was seen as having a more stable outcome. (yeah, I know, but that's what Rumsfeld and Cheney thought.) Nobody wanted to be on duty when things wen to shit, though, so we just stayed year after year, spending a few lives and a good amount of money, but pretending to be close to a stable government.

We could police Afghanistan for decades and it would still falll apart whenever we left.

I'm an interventionist... Jewish and holocaust stuff brings me to that place in my politics and it saddens me when we know that a certain sector of the populace is going to be wiped out. I wish there was a way for the globe to do something to save the women and girls there.

Yeah, the US can't even get their own country to see the world one way, let alone make another country across the world with completely different values do the same.

What was the plan?

You're meaning beyond sating our revenge instinct, enriching military contractors connected to Cheney/Rumsfeld, and stripping rare earth metals, right?

SI

Afghanistan is a lost cause, and always has been after we completed the initial mission of routing out the Al Qaeda terrorist training camps. The puppet government that we installed was never going to succeed, and it's painfully obvious that the 300,000 Afghan troops are mostly cowards who will surrender at the first sign of resistance. If these people aren't willing to fight for their own country, then there's nothing we can do about it. No country can impose their will or form of government on them. The Russians found that out over 40 years ago when they were eventually driven out by the Mujahideen (ironically with financial aid from the United States and Osama bin Laden).

Just another page in failed US-Middle East policy, where we've consistently made the wrong decisions throughout history.

Early read: based on the strong urban and weaker rural numbers I'm seeing, this is a *much* more favorable Census count than minority advocacy groups/Dems had feared.

— Dave Wasserman (@Redistrict) August 12, 2021

https://www.cc.com/video/wlfew4/the-...in-afghanistan

I find myself often thinking back to this clip when thinking about our Afghanistan policy.

SI

All very true.

Yeah, the census numbers are quite surprising. White non-Hispanics are now almost 2 full points below 60% of the population. Georgia is basically a majority-minority state.

You know the answer to this, don't you? The plan was to stabilize the country, help them form a democratic-ish government, train and equip their soldiers to take over the security situation, etc. For reasons discussed, it was a failure. That doesn't mean it wasn't a plan.

I've read a number of people looking through the data that are saying there is a pretty clear undercount of rural counties. All of those Trumpers sticking it to the government.

And there goes Kandahar.

I can see this as continuous headache for Biden and major issue in the elections. Regardless of right or wrong for the US, can see regular atrocities (e.g. stoning for adultery) coming back to haunt Biden e.g. he didn't leave in the "right" way. An easy way for Taliban to influence the US elections if they choose to.

Obviously not fair to blame Biden solely. Trump had a major say here. But Biden is now holding the hot potato.

I doubt it'll be major... the USA hasn't cared (unfortunately) for about 10 years and likely won't now. There's bigger fish to fry (perhaps) in regards to the Pandemic, vax v unvax , USSR sowing discord within the mentally stunted of our country, economy, shut downs, etc. I think any Afghan political attacks would be blunted with images and video of Trump initiating the withdrawal.

Yep. I give Biden zero blame here. What's the alternative, stay there indefinitely and tear up the agreement he inherited?

I mean, the correct answer was total obliteration of opposition, which is antithetical to what the US stands for internationally. Of course, it would have lead to calls that the US was exterminating people, and it would have had to be a be a complete wipeout. The stomach that it would have taken to pursue that course of action was completely untenable. That's really the only way that it would have been changed. Probably would have been cheaper in the long run though.

It was a no win, Lindsey Graham already criticizing him for acting like he knows better than our military leaders, completely ignoring the fact that Trump actually said he knew better than them, what a fucking bootlicker.

And if Biden had kept troops there the it would have been "Trump promised to bring our troops home, but Biden wants to keep young Americans in harms way"

Biden has nothing to do with the debacle in Afghanistan, and bringing the troops home is the right thing to do.

The main concern moving forward is the possible resurgence of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and this should not be a partisan issue. Right now, they do not have the capability to launch another attack against the United States, but that could change over time with cooperation from the Taliban.

Potential Al Qaeda resurgence in Afghanistan worries U.S. officials

How much resources do you really need to attack America? ISIS has proven you just need social media to connect with an angry dissatisfied American or two. And then those Americans go out and shoot up a night club or something.

Unfortunately, that always has been the case and will continue to be. I was referring to the ability to train for and plot another large-scale attack, resulting in a cataclysmic loss of human life.

That's what the Russian tried and it wasn't working even before we started arming the Muj.

I agree it is right to bring the troops home. I do agree he does not own the vast majority of the blame. But based on what we are seeing right now, he does own some blame on how quickly it is collapsing. There can be legitimate second guessing on were there other options to pull us out without this (or less of a) debacle that is happening now and the future impact, implications etc.


I do agree this is a risk. They've got their own country and own pseudo caliphate now. Plenty of muslim extremists that will flock to their version of nirvana.


But yes, basically time to go.

I wonder how successfully installing a warlord/strongman would have been. Sure there would have been atrocities etc. but that's someone we could negotiate with because he would have been influenced by $ and power.

There were X big warlords back then. Maybe give them their own territory and call it a day. Who knows.

Why? All he's done here is live up to the agreement negotiated by Trump. That's not on Biden. We've been training the Afghans for two decades to handle their own country, such as it is. If they aren't ready by now, they never will be. I don't see how *any* of it is Biden's fault. Going back on the agreed timetable that he walked into as President and didn't negotiate himself would have been even worse.

That has worked in other areas, but it also has the possibility of blowing up in our face. Saddam Hussein was definitely our favorite pet warlord that kept Iraq stable through horrible means, but he was just fine until he invaded another ally in the region. I think if the Bush administration felt they could have worked with the Taliban to oust Al-Qaeda in 2001, they would have. I just don't think they would have been willing.

Don't disagree. The Why we went in, the What happened (until our withdrawal) is not on Biden (or at least not significantly e.g. not sure what he did or not during Obama)


The How we withdrew (the execution of it) is what Biden shares some blame on.

Heck, even more recently. Trump had an agreement on the table and was hoping to pull the trigger on a withdrawal deal but the Taliban couldn't stop breaking every agreement.

I was thinking after Taliban/AQ fled to the hills. 1-2 years after that, maybe go with a strong man vs the pseudo western democracy we tried to nurture.

It's pretty obvious western democracy doesn't work near everywhere.

Not really advocating it. I do think we could have done a better job in the path we took. But interesting thought experiment.

Regardless, kudos to Biden for doing this where other's kicked the can down the road. We gave Afghanistan plenty of opportunities. It is the right thing for US to pull out, unfortunately it is not the best for Afghanistan.

Wouldn't that be on the military?

Clearly the infrastructure isn't enough in the country to support itself. The taliban are grassroots, and the US lead government was top down. The populace is taking what they get (taliban) rather than what they might have with some pain (US led govt), but they might end up with a big fat zero if they do. So it's the bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush argument. Nation building is hard, and the Bush administration now gets to retroactively bear the brunt of it's failures to anticipate in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Twenty years is the right amount of time to make that determination.

Yeah, unless Biden was Commander in Chief or something.

I'm sure he wrote the entire withdrawal plan and submitted it to the Generals for execution and they implemented all of it within 6 months (because you know, he wrote all of it within a couple weeks of taking office), because we know that he's the boss and he totally knows better than the rest of the entire Pentagon. {Didnt' the guy who actually signed off on it actually say he was?}

But yes, thanks for your eloquent statement of fact. It has truly brought the light responsibility to this clearly defined outcome.

Having said that, how many CEO's went to jail after the 2008 market collapse again? I mean, they were the CEO's after all.

Hey, you said it was on the military. I was just pointing out that Biden oversees the military. I believe that as CinC Biden is ultimately responsible for how they perform. Although I will own I could've said it more diplomatically.


Not sure how this is relevant. Is anyone (except Trump-humpers) calling for Biden to go to jail?

I was pointing out how we don't completely accept that just because you're the guy at the top, when shit happens, and you're the boss, that you're actually held responsible for it, and how conveniently hypocritical that is.

True. Reagan sent Donald Rumsfeld as a special envoy to visit Saddam in 1983. Back then, we had no problem selling him hundreds of millions worth of military equipment while he was using nerve gas to kill Iranians in the Iran-Iraq war.

Ok, I'll bite. What could Biden have done differently, execution-wise, between late January and now to make the outcome differently while still getting out in the agreed-upon timetable? The way I see it, any changes that could have been made would have been on the decades-long process of getting a government in place, training the military there, etc. that happened pre-Biden. In what way could we have gotten out these last several months to avoid this outcome?