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-   -   POTUS 2016 General Election Discussion Thread (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=91538)

JonInMiddleGA 09-29-2016 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3121080)
On the other hand, given how many people from all places on the political spectrum I've seen claim that Trump won "a majority"of Republican primary votes--even when pressed with, "no, he won around 40%"--it's quite possible that much of the populous is just too stupid to react correctly to such a change.

44.9%, per Wiki.

And had the others dropped out as early as in recent memory, it seems likely that his numbers would have been right in line with theirs.

JonInMiddleGA 09-29-2016 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121081)
More people would be willing to vote third party if they weren't worried about the spoiler effect. For example:

Under our system if it's (R) 45, (D) 40, (G) 15, then the (R) wins.
In the alternate setup, they would have to go to a runoff. (Or that could be an instant runoff like some places do).

I'm much more willing to vote third party if it's not going to help the Republican win.

And in that scenario, you end up with the exact same result. Adding marginal / fringe / lunatics to the mix changes nothing.

You can't [i]combine[i] the fringe parties now and have a truly meaningful number of votes. They've not only been rejected, they've been soundly rejected across the board.

It's not impossible for a third candidate to emerge in a meaningful fashion AND not be kicked to the curb on very legitimate merit. We've seen a few that were at least worthy of discussion in our lifetime for crying out loud, despite the supposed "inequities" of the basic setup.

What part of "you're total fucking failures that the vast majority of the voters want no part of" is so hard to get through to people about the current fringe options?

Ben E Lou 09-29-2016 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3121083)
44.9%, per Wiki.

And had the others dropped out as early as in recent memory, it seems likely that his numbers would have been right in line with theirs.
On the flip side, had they stayed, it would have been right around 40%. (I stopped checking when everyone quit, but I'm reasonably certain that it was between 39.0 and 41.0 shortly before Cruz and Kasich dropped.)

But the point holds: I've seen multiple nitwits try to claim that "majority means the person who got the most votes!"

JonInMiddleGA 09-29-2016 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3121085)
On the flip side, had they stayed, it would have been right around 40%. (I stopped checking when everyone quit, but I'm reasonably certain that it was between 39.0 and 41.0 before Cruz and Kasich dropped.)

But the point holds: I've seen multiple nitwits try to claim that "majority means the person who got the most votes!"

Just thinking back, I'm not sure I ever once heard the distinction between plurality and majority (never mind with regard to politics, I mean just in general) in all my years of school.

Hell, does even a plurality of the population know the meaning of the word? Or that it even exists?

I get your gripe on that broad point, I'm just saying that maybe we really can't reasonably expect the word to be used properly. As a nation, that's really not who we are, nor does it seem realistic to think we ever will be.

Ben E Lou 09-29-2016 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3121086)
I get your gripe on that broad point, I'm just saying that maybe we really can't reasonably expect the word to be used properly. As a nation, that's really not who we are, nor does it seem realistic to think we ever will be.
Yeah. :sigh: The more I look around, the more I realize that I'd be all-in for having everyone take an intelligence test, then let the top 20% vote on what's best for the rest of these dummies. ;)

#IAmNotADictatorSometimes #IAmAnOligarchSometimes

flere-imsaho 09-29-2016 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman (Post 3121062)
There was quite a bit of discussion back in 2008 about the track record for Senators being a millstone for running for POTUS.

The problem with having been a Senator (and to go back to Quik's point) is that there's always going to be something in your legislative record that can be spun as "bad". Obama avoided this mainly by being a Senator for such a short period. This problem isn't nearly as bad for Governors because of the difference in what they're called upon to do.

The other problem with Senators is that the amount of time required for them to fundraise borders on being a full-time job at this point. This, plus the demands of a 24-hour news cycle, result in candidates who are indistinguishable from salespeople/fundraisers, because that's basically who they are.

Thus you end up with a candidate like Marco Rubio, who's telegenic but also bland enough that he can be a cipher for voters to project what they want on him. That and money allows him to roll to electoral victory, at least at that level. It also means you get a guy who can't respond to complex questions on the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 3121072)
Weld was able to name Merkel after thinking for a second.

Which is ironic, because identifying Merkel as a foreign leader you admire should more-or-less disqualify you from the Libertarian party, given the policies for which she stands (and implements).

JPhillips 09-29-2016 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3121056)
Something that we are clearly seeing in this election -- it's really, really hard to run for President in any serious way. We set expectations at an absurdly high level - and invest very little in positive feelings about accomplishments, relative to perceived mistakes and missteps.

I don't think Gary Johnson is a dope. But as a guy who didn't have to go through the sort of deep vetting that a primary/caucus process offers, he's suddenly getting even this small degree of legitimate attention, and he's basically showing his ass. Not that he's actually terrible -- but that he's unpolished, unrestrained, and untrained. And in the bright lights of a serious campaign, all that will surely come to the fore, and (I guess) correctly so.

Lots of voters are wringing their hands with cries of "why don't any good people run?" this cycle. I wonder if the answer is that we hold candidates up to such rigor with deep scrutiny of every statement and position even offered, we prod at them throughout a 24 hour news cycle, and we pick apart every business dealing or unconventional experience... to the point where almost nobody could come through it without looking bad in some ways. And bad really sticks. Much more than good.

Makes me think that Obama, as a generally inexperienced candidate 8 years ago, might have fit the profile. He managed to leverage a Senate vote against the war, and just a thin resume, along with a gift as a speaker/presenter into a comfortable win. All that while people attacked him vaguely for being underqualified. Maybe if he had been in the Senate for 12 more years and had a much longer list of votes and public statements, he would have looked like another deeply flawed candidate to many of the people who liked him in 2008. Despite being far more "qualified" by a traditional measure.

Part of Johnson's problem is his lack of staff. He doesn't have any advisors, and it's showing.

molson 09-29-2016 01:22 PM
What are the libertarian-friendly world leaders? I can't think of any either. I guess that's how Johnson could have spun his answer if none came to mind. That his view of ideal government is a uniquely American one.

flere-imsaho 09-29-2016 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3121084)
And in that scenario, you end up with the exact same result. Adding marginal / fringe / lunatics to the mix changes nothing.

I think the point that's being made is that with an instant runoff system you at least get a result that (theoretically) shows Johnson (as an example) got 20% on the first pass, even if that wasn't enough to make the runoff. Thus showing that there's 20% support for his ideas.

Which, you know, fine, but I think trying to address 3rd-party viability via the Presidential Election is a bit of a non-starter. A better vector would be to get rid of House districts and allot those seats based on a nationwide proportional representation vote. GOP gets 40% of the votes, they get 40% of the seats. Democrats get 35% of the votes, they get 35% of the seats. Libertarians get 10% of the votes, they get 10% of the seats, and so on and so forth.

At this point you get some 3rd party politicians to actually show up on the national stage, getting exposure that could actually translate into a meaningful Presidential run down the road (one could argue that Perot "purchased" this exposure in 1992 with his extensive infomercial buys).

flere-imsaho 09-29-2016 01:31 PM
Quote:
“I hope the Trump campaign is gonna come forward and answer some questions about this because if what the article says is true -- and I’m not saying that it is, we don’t know with a hundred percent certainty -- I’d be deeply concerned about it, I would,” said Rubio in an interview on the ESPN/ABC “Capital Games” podcast.

“This is something they’re gonna have to give a response to. I mean, it was a violation of American law, if that’s how it happened,” said Rubio.

Strong take, Marco.

flere-imsaho 09-29-2016 01:34 PM
This is interesting:

Quote:
Are you denying his company spent any money in Cuba? asked a panelist.

“They paid money, as I understand from the story, in 1998,” said Conway.

How does Trump's campaign manager go on national TV and clearly know nothing more about her candidate's background activities than what was in the national press? Going on TV to defuse a potential problem with a clear rebuttal is kind of campaign management 101, I would have thought.

JPhillips 09-29-2016 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho (Post 3121096)
Strong take, Marco.

And I will continue to support our nominee.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho (Post 3121091)
Which is ironic, because identifying Merkel as a foreign leader you admire should more-or-less disqualify you from the Libertarian party, given the policies for which she stands (and implements).

Weld isn't really liked by most rank and file Libertarians. He's considered way too big government for their tastes (he's basically a 'moderate Libertarian' - ie, Northeastern Republican).

At least he could name a person. And just about every foreign leader is far more big government than the Libertarian Party (if Johnson said that, it would have been a good answer).

stevew 09-29-2016 02:20 PM
I don't really like Rubio or his policies but he's looked/sounded a TON more presidential once he stopped running for president

Galaxy 09-29-2016 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121020)

The question was who is your favorite current world leader. I'll be honest, that's a tough question if you're a libertarian. New Zealand's John Key?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3121056)
Something that we are clearly seeing in this election -- it's really, really hard to run for President in any serious way. We set expectations at an absurdly high level - and invest very little in positive feelings about accomplishments, relative to perceived mistakes and missteps.

I don't think Gary Johnson is a dope. But as a guy who didn't have to go through the sort of deep vetting that a primary/caucus process offers, he's suddenly getting even this small degree of legitimate attention, and he's basically showing his ass. Not that he's actually terrible -- but that he's unpolished, unrestrained, and untrained. And in the bright lights of a serious campaign, all that will surely come to the fore, and (I guess) correctly so.

Lots of voters are wringing their hands with cries of "why don't any good people run?" this cycle. I wonder if the answer is that we hold candidates up to such rigor with deep scrutiny of every statement and position even offered, we prod at them throughout a 24 hour news cycle, and we pick apart every business dealing or unconventional experience... to the point where almost nobody could come through it without looking bad in some ways. And bad really sticks. Much more than good.

Makes me think that Obama, as a generally inexperienced candidate 8 years ago, might have fit the profile. He managed to leverage a Senate vote against the war, and just a thin resume, along with a gift as a speaker/presenter into a comfortable win. All that while people attacked him vaguely for being underqualified. Maybe if he had been in the Senate for 12 more years and had a much longer list of votes and public statements, he would have looked like another deeply flawed candidate to many of the people who liked him in 2008. Despite being far more "qualified" by a traditional measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3121056)
Something that we are clearly seeing in this election -- it's really, really hard to run for President in any serious way. We set expectations at an absurdly high level - and invest very little in positive feelings about accomplishments, relative to perceived mistakes and missteps.

I don't think Gary Johnson is a dope. But as a guy who didn't have to go through the sort of deep vetting that a primary/caucus process offers, he's suddenly getting even this small degree of legitimate attention, and he's basically showing his ass. Not that he's actually terrible -- but that he's unpolished, unrestrained, and untrained. And in the bright lights of a serious campaign, all that will surely come to the fore, and (I guess) correctly so.

Lots of voters are wringing their hands with cries of "why don't any good people run?" this cycle. I wonder if the answer is that we hold candidates up to such rigor with deep scrutiny of every statement and position even offered, we prod at them throughout a 24 hour news cycle, and we pick apart every business dealing or unconventional experience... to the point where almost nobody could come through it without looking bad in some ways. And bad really sticks. Much more than good.

Makes me think that Obama, as a generally inexperienced candidate 8 years ago, might have fit the profile. He managed to leverage a Senate vote against the war, and just a thin resume, along with a gift as a speaker/presenter into a comfortable win. All that while people attacked him vaguely for being underqualified. Maybe if he had been in the Senate for 12 more years and had a much longer list of votes and public statements, he would have looked like another deeply flawed candidate to many of the people who liked him in 2008. Despite being far more "qualified" by a traditional measure.

I hate how Johnson makes very minor gaffes, and they're more "I need to think it about it first" than pure gaffes, it's the end of the world. Clinton and Trump just don't make gaffes, they just outright lie, have horrible track records, and are all around slimy, but Clinton doesn't get called out the way Johnson and Trump (rightfully so) do.

Such a weird election. I don't know why anyone smart, privately successful, and steady would want to run for the Presidency or office anymore. The standards of perfection are insanely high, and you're expected to know rehearsed answers to every question right off the bat (no thinking allowed!).
I want a leader that is smart and listens, surrounds himself or herself with talented people, processes the information and comes to the best--and tough--decisions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 3121058)
I hear you, but not being able to name a single foreign leader is BAD... like, I'd be a bit like WTF if one of my friends couldn't do that.

The question wasn't to name a single foreign leader, which is the spin I'm seeing by some today.

panerd 09-29-2016 03:10 PM
Yes. Gary Johnson was on the front page of the St. Louis post-dispatch webpage today. Its quite clear what the agenda is of the media. He has not even been mentioned in most of their coverage. I won't go as far as defending not being able to name a favorite world leader or even saying he is the most qualified to be president of the nominees but the press does have an agenda and it doesn't involve anybody not named Hillary Clinton winning the election.

JPhillips 09-29-2016 03:15 PM
I'm so old I remember when the media was filling their time with emailgate, Benghazi, pneumoniagate, Clinton Foundation, DNCgate, blah blah blah.

NobodyHere 09-29-2016 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3121109)
I'm so old I remember when the media was filling their time with emailgate, Benghazi, pneumoniagate, Clinton Foundation, DNCgate, blah blah blah.

You can still watch Fox News and the other minor conservative cable news channel if you miss all that.

The other outlets seem to focus much more on Trump IMO.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 03:19 PM
Quote:
Gary Johnson was on the front page of the St. Louis post-dispatch webpage today.

Maybe this morning, but not right now. It was pretty decent political news this morning, when both Trump and Clinton aren't really doing much.

larrymcg421 09-29-2016 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy (Post 3121107)

The question wasn't to name a single foreign leader, which is the spin I'm seeing by some today.

Um, did you watch the video? I'd say you're the one spinning. Yes, it makes sense that a Libertarian would not like many foreign leaders. If he'd answered it like that, then this isn't a story. He looked completely lost and didn't know what to say, then admitted it was an "Aleppo" moment.

panerd 09-29-2016 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3121109)
I'm so old I remember when the media was filling their time with emailgate, Benghazi, pneumoniagate, Clinton Foundation, DNCgate, blah blah blah.

Yes Benghazi = Doesn't name favorite world leader.

Listen I am all for Johnson getting called on it, I posted earlier today in the thread how I am growing tired of Johnson's "aw shucks" demeanor. "Above the fold" top story on St. Louis news site? A bit of a stretch.

mckerney 09-29-2016 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121112)
Um, did you watch the video? I'd say you're the one spinning. Yes, it makes sense that a Libertarian would not like many foreign leaders. If he'd answered it like that, then this isn't a story. He looked completely lost and didn't know what to say, then admitted it was an "Aleppo" moment.

Johnson is trying to spin it by going with saying that even after having time to think about it here still can't think of a leader he looks up to.

Galaxy 09-29-2016 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121112)
Um, did you watch the video? I'd say you're the one spinning. Yes, it makes sense that a Libertarian would not like many foreign leaders. If he'd answered it like that, then this isn't a story. He looked completely lost and didn't know what to say, then admitted it was an "Aleppo" moment.

I watch the video (actually watched the townhall). Not sure how what he said and the question that was asked is any different than what I stated in my response to clarifying to what ISiddiqui stated. What leader would he look up? A honest question.

Johnson is far from being the polished, coached and robotic political we seem to expect, which people either love or hate.

I mean, Hillary Clinton told the Benghazi committee that was the boss of ambassadors in 270 countries. I don't see any outrage over that line.

NobodyHere 09-29-2016 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckerney (Post 3121115)
Johnson is trying to spin it by going with saying that even after having time to think about it here still can't think of a leader he looks up to.

I have to agree with Johnson on this one.

panerd 09-29-2016 04:04 PM
Disclaimer: I'm not running for president but trying to think about what I would do.

I guess you have to go with a European leader or Canada right? Don't want to mispronounce any of the Asian leaders. Angela Merkel is the antitheses of him on foreign policy/economic policy as are most of the Western European leaders. The English lady (who I won't even google to act like I know her name) has been around like a month. His does seem like pure gaffe but really what is the correct answer?

NobodyHere 09-29-2016 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121112)
Um, did you watch the video? I'd say you're the one spinning. Yes, it makes sense that a Libertarian would not like many foreign leaders. If he'd answered it like that, then this isn't a story. He looked completely lost and didn't know what to say, then admitted it was an "Aleppo" moment.

That doesn't change the fact that the media is changing the question from "Name your favorite foreign leader" to "Name a single foreign leader". CNN just did a segment on this and their on-screen headline repeated the lie.

panerd 09-29-2016 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3121119)
That doesn't change the fact that the media is changing the question from "Name your favorite foreign leader" to "Name a single foreign leader". CNN just did a segment on this and their on-screen headline repeated the lie.

Yeah he really missed an opportunity though to say how with his trade policies and foreign policy he would have lots of favorites instead of being at war with 1/3 of the world.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3121119)
That doesn't change the fact that the media is changing the question from "Name your favorite foreign leader" to "Name a single foreign leader". CNN just did a segment on this and their on-screen headline repeated the lie.

What did their on-screen headline say? Because from Johnson's response (and calling it "another Aleppo moment") it definitely appeared he couldn't name a single foreign leader.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by panerd (Post 3121118)
Disclaimer: I'm not running for president but trying to think about what I would do.

I guess you have to go with a European leader or Canada right? Don't want to mispronounce any of the Asian leaders. Angela Merkel is the antitheses of him on foreign policy/economic policy as are most of the Western European leaders. The English lady (who I won't even google to act like I know her name) has been around like a month. His does seem like pure gaffe but really what is the correct answer?

That's what you say then instead of looking like a deer in the headlights and then saying that Mexico guy, which Weld had to help him out ("Fox"). And also mentioning it was an Aleppo moment.

The competent way to answer the question if there isn't anyone you like is to say that most foreign leaders are into big government and therefore I can't really name anyone offhand that would appeal to me as a 'favorite'. However, I wish that with my election to the Presidency, voters in Europe, Asia, and Africa would see that a lower government policy is achievable and the best way to go and elect individuals who I may be able to point as a 'favorite' at some point in the future.

(Oh, and the British PM is Theresa May)

larrymcg421 09-29-2016 04:18 PM
Did you guys know that Hillary called some Trump supporters a "basket of deplorables"? It's too bad the media didn't cover that.

NobodyHere 09-29-2016 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 3121121)
What did their on-screen headline say? Because from Johnson's response (and calling it "another Aleppo moment") it definitely appeared he couldn't name a single foreign leader.

That wasn't the question.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3121125)
That wasn't the question.

It's a necessary part of the question - you have to know a foreign leader before you can claim him or her as your favorite.

NobodyHere 09-29-2016 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 3121126)
It's a necessary part of the question - you have to know a foreign leader before you can claim him or her as your favorite.

He wasn't trying to name just any random foreign leader. He was asked to named one he liked and he couldn't think of any.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3121127)
He wasn't trying to name just any random foreign leader. He was asked to named one he liked and he couldn't think of any.

He said he was "having an Aleppo moment". That indicates that it's not just he knew of foreign leaders and couldn't think of one he liked.

bronconick 09-29-2016 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by panerd (Post 3121118)
Disclaimer: I'm not running for president but trying to think about what I would do.

I guess you have to go with a European leader or Canada right? Don't want to mispronounce any of the Asian leaders. Angela Merkel is the antitheses of him on foreign policy/economic policy as are most of the Western European leaders. The English lady (who I won't even google to act like I know her name) has been around like a month. His does seem like pure gaffe but really what is the correct answer?

With the Libertarian party, I don't think there is one. Their foreign policy is basically isolationism.

NobodyHere 09-29-2016 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bronconick (Post 3121129)
With the Libertarian party, I don't think there is one. Their foreign policy is basically isolationism.

I would call it non-interventionism, which is much better then pissing away trillions of dollars and thousands of lives in places like Iraq.

NobodyHere 09-29-2016 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 3121128)
He said he was "having an Aleppo moment". That indicates that it's not just he knew of foreign leaders and couldn't think of one he liked.

That's kind of a leap in logic IMO. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 04:37 PM
I guess so. I just think it's spin to claim he knew loads foreign leaders, but just couldn't name a favorite. Nothing I've seen indicates Johnson knows anything about foreign policy.

Ryche 09-29-2016 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3121131)
That's kind of a leap in logic IMO. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Watching him try to answer the question, you could tell he just couldn't think of any leader, not just one he liked. He tried Shimon Peres first, then he reached for the former Mexican president at the end., I'm pretty sure they are not a libertarian.

panerd 09-29-2016 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryche (Post 3121133)
Watching him try to answer the question, you could tell he just couldn't think of any leader, not just one he liked. He tried Shimon Peres first, then he reached for the former Mexican president at the end., I'm pretty sure they are not a libertarian.

Like Quiksand and JPhillips said earlier he definitely needs some polishing and a team of handlers. A guy saying "World Leader question: Can't ever go wrong with Israel" "Can't answer a question... make a comment about Hillary or Trump while you think" Instead he acts like I would which isn't good when you want to be president.

Ben E Lou 09-29-2016 05:12 PM

JPhillips 09-29-2016 05:35 PM
Now Trump is claiming the debate was rigged.

A debate that until today he was claiming he had won because of polls.

mckerney 09-29-2016 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3121145)
Now Trump is claiming the debate was rigged.

A debate that until today he was claiming he had won because of polls.

He continued to claim he won in the statement saying it was rigged, I think he was just patting himself on the back for being able to win when put up against that much adversity.

Galaxy 09-29-2016 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 3121132)
I guess so. I just think it's spin to claim he knew loads foreign leaders, but just couldn't name a favorite. Nothing I've seen indicates Johnson knows anything about foreign policy.

And Hillary knows and has experience in foreign policy, but nothing indicates that with her long body of work that she makes good and ethically-free decisions on it, and likes seems to like war.

BishopMVP 09-29-2016 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3121088)
Yeah. :sigh: The more I look around, the more I realize that I'd be all-in for having everyone take an intelligence test, then let the top 20% vote on what's best for the rest of these dummies. ;)

#IAmNotADictatorSometimes #IAmAnOligarchSometimes
I started saying it as a joke, but I'm all aboard a return to elitism. Start by repealing the direct election of Senator's!

SackAttack 09-29-2016 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BishopMVP (Post 3121149)
I started saying it as a joke, but I'm all aboard a return to elitism. Start by repealing the direct election of Senator's!

your misuse of the apostrophe just disqualified you from the ranks of the voting elite, peasant.

flere-imsaho 09-29-2016 07:23 PM
Does that means smug liberals with multiple degrees and high IQs can run the country now? Asking for a friend.

Galaril 09-29-2016 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3120930)
Delete your account.

This made me LOL.

BishopMVP 09-29-2016 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack (Post 3121160)
your misuse of the apostrophe just disqualified you from the ranks of the voting elite, peasant.
Damn you autocorrect! :lol:

Dutch 09-29-2016 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho (Post 3121164)
Does that means smug liberals with multiple degrees and high IQs can run the country now? Asking for a friend.

No liberal arts degrees qualify, I'm afraid. Sorry.

RainMaker 09-29-2016 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodos (Post 3121073)

There are legitimate reasons to dislike Hillary that have nothing to do with her gender. This is a hack piece (the norm for HuffPo) that generalizes everyone who disagrees with someone politically.

RainMaker 09-29-2016 08:25 PM
Like do you have to hate women if you don't like someone for being a puppet for big banks and big business? For voting for the Iraq War?

Buccaneer 09-29-2016 08:29 PM
From an AP article in a swing state (Colorado):

Quote:
Clinton struggling to win over the young voters she needs

By: NICHOLAS RICCARDI, Associated Press September 29, 2016 Updated: 7 minutes ago

BOULDER — John Morales was interning for Bernie Sanders' campaign when the longshot Democratic candidate's hopes started to fade in the spring. That's when Libertarian Gary Johnson caught his interest.

In many ways Johnson and Sanders are ideological opposites. The Vermont senator is an opponent of foreign trade deals and won over many younger voters in the primaries by calling for enormous government spending to guarantee universal health care and free college tuition. Johnson, the former New Mexico governor, supports smaller government and the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

But he shares Sanders' outsider, tell-it-like-it-is style, social liberalism and skepticism about military intervention overseas — attributes that have won over enough Sanders supporters to worry Democrats he could jeopardize Hillary Clinton's chances in November.

Related: Donald Trump to stump in Pueblo, Loveland on Monday
Morales, a 22-year-old community college student and Army Reservist, is one of those converts — he's now interning for Johnson.

"He agrees with about 70 percent of what Bernie was saying," Morales said, adding that many of his friends who liked Sanders now are also drawn to Johnson. "I do believe that he's got better ideas than Hillary and Trump," Morales says.

With roughly a month until Election Day, Clinton is still struggling to win over young voters who twice helped elect Barack Obama.

"They're not brand loyal to either party — they're loyal to ideology and disruption of the status quo," said Jill Hanauer, a Denver-based Democratic strategist whose firm has polled the age group known as millennials. She said many don't remember how protest votes for Green Party candidate Ralph Nader helped elect George W. Bush in 2000.

Clinton's challenge with younger voters is part of what's keeping the race close. A recent AP-GfK poll found Johnson pulling 14 percent of voters under 30, Green Party nominee Jill Stein with 3 percent and "other" with 6 percent. Clinton had the backing of 48 percent of young voters, compared with the 60 percent Obama notched in 2012. Trump had 27 percent in the poll.

"Most of the supporters and volunteers who come in here are former Bernie people," said Woodrow Johnston, the Las Vegas-based deputy director of youth outreach for the candidate.

"I think that for the most part people buy more into themes -- or character -- than issues."

Clinton's campaign plans to have popular surrogates, including Obama, first lady Michelle Obama and Sanders make her case. Their arguments to young people won't directly target Johnson but instead will focus on the potential consequences of voting for a third-party candidate.

"If you don't vote, that's a vote for Trump," Obama declared this week on the Steve Harvey radio show. "If you vote for a third-party candidate who's got no chance to win, that's a vote for Trump."

Johnson's support among younger voters has roiled the campaign, especially in Colorado, though he's hurt himself with recent gaffes. This week he's being mocked for being unable, in a television appearance, to name a single world leader he admired. That awkward moment drew a comparison by Johnson himself to his "Aleppo moment" this month, when he didn't recognize the besieged city in Syria.

Still, Clinton has struggled to win over supporters of Sanders, who handily won the Democratic primary here.

A CNN poll this week suggested third-party candidates could make a difference in Colorado: The poll found a nominal one-point lead for Trump when Johnson and Stein were included in the survey, while Clinton had a two-point lead when they were not.

Clinton's challenges are obvious in the liberal college town of Boulder. Some young voters at the University of Colorado are still pining for Sanders and unwilling to embrace her.

Payton Smith, a 21-year-old business major, had backed Sanders even though he disagreed with some of the Vermont senator's proposals. "It was something different," he said. Now he's shifted to Johnson. "I'd rather put my name behind someone who's not a liar or a thug."

At the Innisfree poetry bookshop and coffee house, a Sanders sign and an etching of the senator still hang in the window. On the patio, Dani Ballard, 21, and Cal Hoffman, 22, pondered their options. They'll probably vote for Stein and can't bring themselves to support Clinton. "I just feel like she's untrustworthy," Ballard said.

"I find the choices of both major parties so depressing," said Hoffman.

Some Sanders supporters have no problem with Clinton. "Bernie is the leader I'd like in an ideal world, but Hillary is the leader I want for America today," said Shruti Kaul, 18.

And plenty of ex-Sanders voters are willing to temper their feelings.

Brooke Long, a 23-year-old geography major, tells pollsters she supports Johnson in hopes the Libertarian candidate reaches the 15 percent polling threshold to let him into presidential debates.

"If my options were Gary Johnson, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, in a reasonable situation where Donald Trump couldn't win, I'd go with Gary Johnson," Long said.

But she knows she doesn't live in that world and is voting for Clinton. "I'm in a swing state," she. "I have a responsibility. I don't want to have a Nader problem again."

___

AP White House Correspondent Julie Pace and AP Polling Editor Emily Swanson contributed to this report from Washington.

RainMaker 09-29-2016 08:33 PM
I don't think she helps herself by going after stuff like Pepe the Frog. Just makes her look out of touch to young people.

tarcone 09-29-2016 08:58 PM
If she said she was going to legalize marijuana, I bet she wins a lot of the young vote.

cuervo72 09-29-2016 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3121175)
I don't think she helps herself by going after stuff like Pepe the Frog. Just makes her look out of touch to young people.

Well, my 14yo loves memes and liked Pepe the Frog, until she realized tonight that it has been co-opted by white supremecists. She'd probably appreciate justice for Pepe.

JPhillips 09-29-2016 10:56 PM



Ha ha! I don't know anything!

EagleFan 09-29-2016 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3121221)
Ha ha! I don't know anything!

Don't be so hard on yourself.

larrymcg421 09-29-2016 11:01 PM
Gary Johnson is also pushing this stupid narrative that Lincoln was a third party candidate.

ISiddiqui 09-29-2016 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121223)
Gary Johnson is also pushing this stupid narrative that Lincoln was a third party candidate.

I always thought that was ridiculously strange. Don't these people study history? The Republican Party was definitely the major opposition party in 1856 and again in 1860 (when the Democrats split in half - Southern Democrats were the 3rd Party that year) - after the disintegration of the Whigs (the American "Know Nothing" Party was by far the third party that came out of the Whigs ending).

larrymcg421 09-29-2016 11:43 PM
Yeah and the Republicans won the House majority in 1858. Kinda hard to be a third party when you control the House of Representatives.

SirFozzie 09-30-2016 01:39 AM
I just can't wait to see what Trump can do with the US economy. And by "just can't wait" I mean "Oh god, we're going to let this scumbag get the keys to the US treasury?

I'd much prefer the basic Republicans, at least you know that if you let them, they will follow through on their promises (to privatise everything, the free market will decide, yadda yadda yadda). Trump can't even be trusted to do THAT.

Donald Trump often portrays himself as a savior of the working class who will "protect your job." But a USA TODAY NETWORK analysis found he has been involved in more than 3,500 lawsuits over the past three decades — and a large number of those involve ordinary Americans, like the Friels, who say Trump or his companies have refused to pay them.

At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

Trump’s companies have also been cited for 24 violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act since 2005 for failing to pay overtime or minimum wage, according to U.S. Department of Labor data. That includes 21 citations against the defunct Trump Plaza in Atlantic City and three against the also out-of-business Trump Mortgage LLC in New York. Both cases were resolved by the companies agreeing to pay back wages.

In addition to the lawsuits, the review found more than 200 mechanic’s liens — filed by contractors and employees against Trump, his companies or his properties claiming they were owed money for their work — since the 1980s. The liens range from a $75,000 claim by a Plainview, N.Y., air conditioning and heating company to a $1 million claim from the president of a New York City real estate banking firm. On just one project, Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, records released by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission in 1990 show that at least 253 subcontractors weren’t paid in full or on time, including workers who installed walls, chandeliers and plumbing.

That may be "Fiscally Responsible" but, it's also FRAUDULENT. And we're coming close to letting this Yabo do the same thing, but this time in AMERICA'S name, with the keys to the US Treasury? If you vote republican because they're "the sane ones" when it comes to fiscal responsibility, but you vote trump, you are simply a hypocrite. End of story

USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills

mckerney 09-30-2016 02:10 AM
At least he may have to pay some people back, being he may be forced to return donations to the Trump Foundation being it isn't registered to solicit donations in New York.

Trump Foundation lacks the certification required for charities that solicit money - The Washington Post

Quote:
Donald Trump’s charitable foundation — which has been sustained for years by donors outside the Trump family — has never obtained the certification that New York requires before charities can solicit money from the public, according to the state attorney general’s office.

Under the laws in New York, where the Donald J. Trump Foundation is based, any charity that solicits more than $25,000 a year from the public must obtain a special kind of registration beforehand. Charities as large as Trump’s must also submit to a rigorous annual audit that asks — among other things — whether the charity spent any money for the personal benefit of its officers.

If New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman (D) finds that Trump’s foundation raised money in violation of the law, he could order the charity to stop raising money immediately. With a court’s permission, Schneiderman could also force Trump to return money that his foundation has already raised.

Which could explain why he didn't register, but he seems to have used the money he had paid to the foundation instead of him to personal and business reasons rather than charitable ones.

Galaxy 09-30-2016 03:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3121175)
I don't think she helps herself by going after stuff like Pepe the Frog. Just makes her look out of touch to young people.

The problem is also the younger generation knows how to Google, use social media, and tends to pay attention to traditional MSM outlets. We can look up your statements/facts and history in an instant, and see through the B.S. due to these technological resources.

digamma 09-30-2016 09:56 AM
Check out sex tape, says presidential candidate.

Ben E Lou 09-30-2016 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3121252)
Check out sex tape, says presidential candidate.
Saw this. Thought it was a joke. After a year and half, I really ought to have known better.

mckerney 09-30-2016 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3121253)
Saw this. Thought it was a joke. After a year and half, I really ought to have known better.

After reading it my thought was I'm not sure if this will be Trump trying to shame someone else or attempting to brag by telling people to check out a sex tape he's in.

cartman 09-30-2016 10:26 AM
He also said if you see an article about him quoting "sources" to not believe it, there are no sources and it is all lies.

But if "many people are saying"...

Kodos 09-30-2016 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman (Post 3121257)
He also said if you see an article about him quoting "sources" to not believe it, there are no sources and it is all lies.

But if "many people are saying"...

Of course. "Many people" is always legit.

mckerney 09-30-2016 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman (Post 3121257)
He also said if you see an article about him quoting "sources" to not believe it, there are no sources and it is all lies.

But if "many people are saying"...

He's just going if his own experience.

mckerney 09-30-2016 11:40 AM
Trump deposition video set for release - POLITICO

Quote:
A video of Donald Trump testifying under oath about his provocative rhetoric about Mexicans and other Latinos is set to go public as soon as Friday, drawing new attention to those comments just weeks before voters cast their ballots in the presidential race.
Trump gave the testimony in June at a law office in Washington in connection with one of two lawsuits he filed last year after prominent chefs reacted to the controversy over his remarks by pulling out of plans to open restaurants at his new D.C. hotel.
D.C. Superior Court Judge Brian Holeman said in an order issued Thursday evening that fears the testimony might show up in campaign commercials were no basis to keep the public from seeing the video.

QuikSand 09-30-2016 11:48 AM
Anyone taking odds on the twitterverse having fun with "Holeman" there? DJT himself, even?

molson 09-30-2016 12:02 PM
I'm thinking it's not going to be some campaign-altering bombshell if Trump made some racially insensitive comments at a deposition.

nol 09-30-2016 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckerney (Post 3121264)
D.C. Superior Court Judge Brian Holeman said in an order issued Thursday evening that fears the testimony might show up in campaign commercials were no basis to keep the public from seeing the video.

Would this be showing up in Clinton's or Trump's campaign commercials?

Subby 09-30-2016 01:23 PM


mckerney 09-30-2016 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nol (Post 3121278)
Would this be showing up in Clinton's or Trump's campaign commercials?

It was Trumps lawyers arguing this so the fear is it would show up in anti-Trump ads or ones from the Clinton campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subby (Post 3121283)


And after he'd had such positive things to say about a woman with a sex tape in the past

Quote:
“Now, somebody who a lot of people don’t give credit to but is in actuality very beautiful is Paris Hilton,” Trump told Stern. “I’ve known Paris Hilton from the time she’s 12, her parents are friends of mine, and the first time I saw her she walked into the room and I said, ‘Who the hell is that?’ At 12, I wasn’t interested… but she was beautiful.” He also admitted to watching Paris Hilton’s sex tape with Knauss, despite knowing her since the age of 12 and being very close friends with the Hilton Family.

CraigSca 09-30-2016 01:32 PM
But he loves the Mexicans! He ate a taco one time.

Ben E Lou 09-30-2016 02:56 PM
And here's a twist to feed the conspiracy theorists on Team Trump.

Debate commission confirms 'issues' with Donald Trump’s mic - NY Daily News

mckerney 09-30-2016 03:23 PM



This fuckin' guy...

Subby 09-30-2016 04:12 PM


JonInMiddleGA 09-30-2016 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mckerney (Post 3121294)



This fuckin' guy...

Ought to make that point in both directions honestly, that she promises not to pardon him either.

This is a definite slam dunk positive with his voters & could be an minor energy boost for a few days.

Subby 09-30-2016 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3121305)
Ought to make that point in both directions honestly
Yes, I was thinking he would have to promise not to pardon Trump either. :D

JonInMiddleGA 09-30-2016 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subby (Post 3121306)
Yes, I was thinking he would have to promise not to pardon Trump either. :D

Eh, seems reasonable to think that isn't going to happen so probably fair enough to skip over it. Kinda like not including a unicorn clause in a contract, ya know.

SirFozzie 09-30-2016 09:07 PM
Turns out that the Sex Tape that Donald wants you to check out is the one HE'S in, not that Miss Universe. Thankfully, he's not in the sexually explicit parts.

Donald Trump Appeared In A 2000 Playboy Softcore Porn - BuzzFeed News

Thomkal 09-30-2016 09:54 PM
I'm surprised it took the media that long to find that.

nol 10-01-2016 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3121327)
I'm surprised it took the media that long to find that.

It would have required a conversation in the newsroom along the lines of, "Hey guys, don't ask how I know this but there's some porn from 16 years ago with Donald Trump in it," so I'm not all that surprised :)

Thomkal 10-01-2016 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nol (Post 3121361)
It would have required a conversation in the newsroom along the lines of, "Hey guys, don't ask how I know this but there's some porn from 16 years ago with Donald Trump in it," so I'm not all that surprised :)

well I suppose they waited to see if he would go that route so they could use it against him too.

Shkspr 10-01-2016 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3121327)
I'm surprised it took the media that long to find that.

I'm assuming nobody ever looked at his IMDB page.

stevew 10-01-2016 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nol (Post 3121361)
It would have required a conversation in the newsroom along the lines of, "Hey guys, don't ask how I know this but there's some porn from 16 years ago with Donald Trump in it," so I'm not all that surprised :)

nice

cuervo72 10-01-2016 02:49 PM
Pfft, "porn." It's a Playboy video.

Izulde 10-01-2016 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuervo72 (Post 3121379)
Pfft, "porn." It's a Playboy video.

This.

JPhillips 10-01-2016 04:52 PM
There's at least a ten percent chance that somewhere out there Trump and Snoop host a tentacle porn video.

JPhillips 10-01-2016 10:19 PM
I expect we'll hear this quote again from Trump's former accountant,

Quote:
“Here the guy was building incredible net worth and not paying tax on it,”


From the NYTimes story on Trumps 916 million write off.

flere-imsaho 10-02-2016 09:32 AM
JPhillips, could you comment on how Trump's possible porn career is related to his NAMBLA ties?

larrymcg421 10-02-2016 02:14 PM
So apparently the tax returns were sent to the NY times from the Trump Tower.

Thomkal 10-02-2016 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121486)
So apparently the tax returns were sent to the NY times from the Trump Tower.

Bombshell report on Trump taxes sends GOP nominee reeling - POLITICO

Subby 10-02-2016 09:12 PM
How much graft is going on that you can't run a successful casino enterprise?


Galaxy 10-03-2016 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3121486)
So apparently the tax returns were sent to the NY times from the Trump Tower.

A trap play set by Trump that the media and left will eat up. Seems to be the hallmark of Trump, and it usually works out for him in the polls.

BishopMVP 10-03-2016 12:45 AM


Smart play by Trump. Forget the issues - isn't my opponent condescending and mean to you? At this point I expect him to put out a 60 second loop of her falling on her way back to the SUV in the final week.

NobodyHere 10-03-2016 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy (Post 3121557)
A trap play set by Trump that the media and left will eat up. Seems to be the hallmark of Trump, and it usually works out for him in the polls.

So what exactly is the trap here assuming the returns are leaked by Trump? It just seems like damaging information to me.


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