Maple Leafs is 100% correct...no championship is no championship, but to say the Sabres have been better then the leafs based on one appearance in the cup, is assinine....With that logic, the Rangers are up there with Colorado, Dallas, New Jersey and Detroit based on the last 10 season of play......Im happy my team is competitive....Im happy i can expect my team to play in the playoffs every season, win games in the playoffs, and challenge for a cup.....I know most will argue they havent challenged for a cup, but making the final 4 twice, and finishing in the upper echelon of the standings is challenging.....just my opinion

This seems very familar :confused:

You still didn't address the second part of my statement, for what the Leafs paid out in payroll they should have done a lot better then what they did. Me thinks if the roles were reversed, Leaf fans would be pointing towards the finals visit too.

Our payroll was not astronomical.....I can think of 3 players that were overpaid during the last 6 years.....Dmitri Kristich, Robert Reichal, and Shayne Corson, who i thought was bad his last year here.....everyone else was within reason compared to what other players of simialar quality were making....if we are attacking payroll and success, lets go after the Rangers, much easier targer, would'nt you say

Sure... There's no doubt that the Leafs teams from about 2001 on have been built for a Cup run. They didn't win one, so by that measure those teams failed. They were still good teams and they had their success, but they didn't reach the ultimate goal.

But does that mean we should applaud the Sabres for being awful, with little fan support and a horrible ownership situation? Spending wisely is a virtue, not spending at all because you're broke and/or cheap isn't something to brag about.

Playoff success should be determined by how close a team has come to the cup. Winning a series every year is useless, unless you are strictly looking at the financial statements, in which case it is very profitable. In my mind Carolina has had more playoff success in the last 6 years because they at least smelled the cup. Do you look back at a team and say "Gee, they sure had a good string of Conference Semi-Finals appearances eh?"

These teams have had playoff success in the last six years:

2003-04 - Tampa Bay Lightning
2002-03 - New Jersey Devils
2001-02 - Detroit Red Wings
2000-01 - Colorado Avalanche
1999-00 - New Jersey Devils

In all those seasons, every other team besides those listed did not have success in the playoffs.

What's it like on the Rock these days? I've got family down from Newfoundland (well, they live in Manitoba now).

See- I don't agree with these assessments at all. Take the Cleveland Indians this year, for instance. If they make the playoffs, even if they lose in 3 games in the LDS, that's success for them. Or how about the Braves? Do they not have success if they didn't win that one World Series- are those 14 division titles worthless then? Granted, baseball's a lot harder to make the playoffs than the NHL and we're talking about "playoff success" so I suppose it's another story.

SI

Great as always... the Baby Leafs are gone as you may or may not know, so we have a QMJHL team now... which I love. Oh, and Pearl Jam just had two sold out shows at Mile One Stadium over the weekend!

Where in Newfoundland are they from?

Stop saying the Sabres are awful! They're only mediocre!!! :D

Please read your entire second paragraph carefully. EVERYTHING you said actually applies to your beloved Maple Leafs back in the mid-80's; the team lost all the time, had one very good player (Vaive) and a bunch of hard working fan favourites (like Brad Marsh), fan support was way down and Harold Ballard was spending nothing and ruling the team like a madman. Bad record...low fan support....bad ownership...hmmm.

I just got involved in the thread because Johnny had to once again come in and troll the Sabres like he always does. Don't believe me? Check my EHM Sabres dynasty...he even trolled in there! :rolleyes:

Without question, the Leafs have better talent than the Sabres and for that matter, a lot of the league. But the team just keeps replacing their old talent with more old talent (or mid-aged question marks like Lindros and Allison) instead of giving their developing youngsters a REAL chance. There doesn't seem to be a long term plan to give prospects a chance in Toronto and that has to be cause for concern. I'm not sold on Colaiacovo yet but don't you have to at least give him a chance to succeed? I hope Quinn also gives more playing time to Matt Stajan, a guy who somehow perservered two seasons ago when Quinn was only giving him 11 minutes a game, mostly on the fourth line. Steen isn't ready yet from what I've seen and while Wellwood has looked pretty dynamic in the preseason, he's not a 'Pat Quinn' type of player and that will work against him.

We haven't had a whole lot to cheer for in Buffalo the last four years so any type of success gets us excited. Near-sighted non-fans point to Satan and Zhitnik's departure and say Buffalo is going to finish last. Real fans see the talented youngsters like Thomas Vanek (who will immediately step in and score 25 goals if not more), Ryan Miller and Jochen Hecht, who will help the Sabres make a decent run for a playoff spot.

That's why there's optimism, and that's why I bought season tickets this year. Yeah they didn't make the splash in free agency in order to pick up a name defenseman (Numminen and Lydman are nice additions but hardly world beaters) but their forwards are young and talented and Ryan Miller finally looks ready to assume his role as goaltending savior this year. The ownership is on solid footing now and the team looks like it has a plan going forward.

Optimism is all we've had for five years. :) Don't take that away from us Leaf fans and we promise we won't bad-mouth your team...

at least until we beat you as usual in the regular season! ;) :D

Im still not exactly sure what the term troll means, even though it seems to be used all the time on these boards, but if it means what i think it means, ive got over 80 posts in this thread, and i've enjoyed the discussions about these issues, ecspecially the ones between rival teams(senators, sabres, isles all have good rivalries with Toronto right now), so thanks for calling me out, can you explain what i did though?

The fan support was never really low, even during the 1980's. That was probably part of the problem -- Ballard knew he could still sell out the building every night, so there was no reason to try to ice a winning team.

Other than that, you're pretty much right. And just like it would have been ridiculous back then to try to applaud the Leafs for managing their payroll, it doesn't make much sense to cheer on the Sabres for being poorly run the last few years.

Still, I hope the Sabres do well this year. They were always fun teams to watch in the early 90s, and I still have fond memories of Rick Jeanneret, (Oh, and the Fuhr trade. Thanks again for that.)

I sent you a PM Johnny.

Ahh, one of the worst trades in Sabres history...Andreychuk, Puppa and the pick used to take Kenny Jonsson for Fuhr and a fifth rounder.

What was Gerry Meehan smoking there?! That trade could be one of the reasons Muckler was brought in a couple months later...

At least Meehan traded for Hasek beforehand in one of the best trades in Sabres history but that was really just luck.

The story's finally official:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2173127

Red Wings re-sign Datsyuk for two years, $7.8M

Associated Press



DETROIT -- Pavel Datsyuk is back with the Detroit Red Wings, spurning the chance to go home to play in Russia.

Datsyuk signed a two-year contract on Monday that will pay him $3.9 million per season.

"We're obviously very happy that we got Pavel back," Red Wings general manager Ken Holland said. "He's a talented young player that had a very good year for us two years ago, and we're hoping for more of the same. With the new rules, I think skilled players like Pavel are really going to be helped."

The restricted free agent, his agent and the Red Wings had been negotiating since before the NHL lockout that wiped out the 2004-05 season.

The 27-year-old Russian signed a contract earlier this month with Avangard Omsk of the Russian SuperLeague. That deal was matched by Moscow Dynamo, another SuperLeague team that Datsyuk played with during the lockout.

Those moves created doubts that Datsyuk would return to Detroit this season.

He had a breakthrough season in 2003-04, finishing tied for the team lead with 30 goals and totaling 68 points.

Datsyuk was a standout during the past two regular seasons and lackluster in the postseason, like most of his teammates. He didn't score a goal in the 2003 or 2004 playoffs and had just six assists.

Datsyuk is the final major piece of the puzzle Holland had to get into place under the league's new $39 million salary cap, about half of what Detroit has spent in the past.

Holland re-signed another restricted free agent, forward Henrik Zetterberg earlier this month and brought back veteran center Steve Yzerman. Almost a month ago, Holland said he was not close to re-signing Datsyuk or Zetterberg, who was also a restricted free agent.

Detroit hosts the St. Louis Blues on Oct. 5 in the season opener.

A: there's no Rangers fans here
B: Rangers fans don't proclaim they are the best team in hockey despite barely making it out of the 1st round each season
C: I seem to have forgotten who got thumped in their own building last night? :D

a: thats too bad, its fun to pick on them
b: who claimed Toronto was the best team in hockey, and how does a team barely make it out of the 1st round, cuz each year, only 8 teams do it, while 20+ wish they could
c: I think you also forgot that its preseason

I never said it wasn't fun to pick on them :D

I have quoted above (maybe the previous) page how someone decided to call the Leafs one of the best playoff teams while under Quinn's watch which is just humerous.

It may be preseason, but we waxed you. Have fun playing half the game down a man since none of those old fart Leafs want to bother to learn the new rules :D

I ran arcoss this today, while looking around at leaf stuff online, and i thought it would help prove my case, which is why im posting it


These 7 teams have the most regular season points in the last 6 years
The numbers in the playoff column are each round the team made it to that year, with the "*" indicating Stanley Cup. As you can see, the Leafs played in the 3rd most playoff series. We did not win a cup, so this to me indicates we are the 5th most succesful playoff team in the last 6 years. Not that bad

edit: the original math here sucked

Nick Boynton has rejected the B's $1.75 Million offer, demanding, if I understand correctly, $1.9 Million. That's right, the difference is a whopping $150,000. Yay to Nick Boynton and yay to the Bruins!

a: again, very true :p
B: I did say they were one of the best playoff teams, didnt say they were the best team in hockey
c: Sabres dominated, Leafs arent as old this year, and i think evey team is gonna struggle with penalties the way they are being called right now

You can look at those stats however you want but to me, Calgary has had a better 6 years of playoffs just based on the last season.

Gee, big shocker to see Ottawa, Philly and Toronto up there in reg season pts and playoff chokes :D 5th - 7th in reg season pts and not ONE Cup finals appearance?

Yes, Calgary made the finals, and lost, great run, but they arent in the same category in playoff succes as those teams, but hey, if you want to think that, i cant change your mind, obviously :p

yeah, but that was only because Cujo carried them

*ducks*

maybe its a principal thing, or maybe he wants to piss them off and be traded

and wasnt Cujo part of the team :confused:

Looks like Nik Kronvall, the Wings best up and coming defenseman, suffered a serious knee injury last night. Could be out for around 4 months or so.

Any team that has either won the cup, or made the finals, in any of those 6 years has, in my opinion, been more successful in the playoffs than Toronto over that time.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I had to choose between cheering for a team like Carolina (one failed run, nothing else) or the Leafs, I'd rather the leafs because each year they at least offered hope. But consistency and success are two different beasts.

It's all just a matter of opinion at this point.

Personally, I feel like you either win the Cup or you don't. If you don't, how far did you get? Making the finals isn't anything special in itself, beyond just being one round further that you made it before you lost. The Stanley Cup finals aren't like the Super Bowl or even World Series, where just making it to "the big show" is a major accomplishment even if you don't win. It's another round that you advanced, and obviously it's better than going out in round three, but it's not a monumental accomplishment.

Would you consider a team that made one trip to the third round and never made the playoffs again a more successful playoff team than one who went to the second round year in a year out? I wouldn't, but again it's just opinion.

You are right...all of this can be debated strongly from either vantage point.

However, I disagree with you wholeheartedly about a trip to the finals being 'just another round'. I don't think I've had a more exciting time being a hockey fan than I did during those two weeks in '99 when the Sabres made it. You'll see...eventually, the Leafs will make it to the Finals again (much to my chagrin ;) ) and I guarantee you'll appreciate the difference between a conference semi-final and the championship series.

Exactly. The best game (of any sport) I've ever been to was Game 4 of the '99 Finals (top row, lower bowl, blue line). The experience was simply amazing, of course it didn't hurt that they won :D

yes and no. 2 of my favorite devils games/series EVER were the 94 loss to the rangers, and the game 7 series loss to colorado in the finals.

terribly disappointing, but i may have been more proud of them then than when they beat anaheim in the finals.

Not if Kerry Fraser has anything to say about it! ;)

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

See, that's just cold.

sorry :(

We're still friends, right ML? You won't report me to Skydog, will you? :)

if he doesn't, you are in the clear. chances of finding SD in here are pretty much slim to none.

Went to see the Senators destroy Buffalo last night 5-2 at the HSBC Arena. Thought I'd give my impressions on things to my fellow Sabres fans ( :( I guess that's just Chubby and me :) )

The Good:
Thomas Vanek - If you are in any pools and want a sleeper, take this kid. He is already a fan favourite in Buffalo and will be a top five contender for the rookie of the year voting. He was dangerous every time on the ice and showed incredible vision in garnering an assist on Briere's goal. Vanek also scored on Hasek to win the shootout for the Sabres.
Teppo Numminen, Toni Lydman & Jeff Jillson - All three of these defensemen played really good hockey last night. Lydman is much better than I thought; great skater, sound defensively and effective making outlet passes. Numminen didn't get beat once all night. The biggest surprise was Jillson, who I wasn't impressed with after getting traded to the Sabres in 2003. He made good decisions yesterday, didn't turn the puck over, and played REALLY well defensively. I think he's locked up a top six spot.

The Bad:
J.P. Dumont - Don't let the two points he had last night fool you. Dumont was brutal last night, directly contributing to two Senators goals on boneheaded giveaways. I generally like Dumont but he looked lost out there last night.
Doug Janik - Who? Exactly! He's trying to win the sixth defenseman slot in Buffalo but just isn't good enough. While physical, he's a below average skater and makes too many poor decisions with the puck. Destined for Rochester.
Sean McMorrow - Buffalo's back up goon to the injured Andrew Peters, McMorrow just can't keep up to the pace in the NHL. He has no brains as well, taking foolish penalties at the wrong time and just looking lost on the ice. I can't believe I'm saying this but if Peters is out for any period of time, the Sabres will regret not signing Eric Boulton.

Other thoughts:
- Again for poolies, write this down - Ryan Miller will be the starting goaltender in Buffalo this year. Martin Biron did nothing last night to prove he should be the starting keeper and I'll be shocked if he doesn't get traded sometime soon (maybe to the Kings?).
- Jason Spezza and Dany Heatley were everywhere last night and looked really good playing on the same line, ESPECIALLY Spezza. I'm serious - he will contend for the point scoring title this year.

I like some of the youngsters in the Stars system, especially Lessard. I'm thinking he makes the big club this year.

What channel are Sabres games going to be on this year?

WOOHOO!!!

Sportsnet East has Sens vs. Pens tonight!!!

Oh, and Patrick Roy is soon to be announced as the new Head Coach of the Quebec Remparts of the QMJHL, the team he also owns. And I'm pissed because the one game the Fog Devils play them this year is in Quebec, not here!!!!

I believe MSG will be carrying them in the States.

:) The more hockey I can see without Center Ice the better.

Vanek is going to be very good, he is a weak link defensively, but, I don't think you are paying him to kill penalties.

Lessard I'm not so sure about Satch, he matured late at UMD, so I'm wait and see on him. It all depends on what line he is on, if he gets put on a top line and produces he should be fine, but if he gets stuck on a grind line, I don't think he will be much.

keep in mind Dumont is just coming back from injury so I'm willing to grant him some sloppy games right now.

As much as I would love Biron and his bloated salary to get dumped, I got a bad feeling it's going to be Mika who gets shipped off. Unless they are playing Biron to showcase him, Mika has only gotten one preseason start. I agree Miller will (and should) be the starter. Hopefully they stick with him and don't do stupid shit like a 50/50 split (damn Darcy for his Biron loving ways)

I've heard an unconfirmed rumour that due to the CBC lockout, the second game of the opening double-header (Canucks vs. Oilers) will not be shown. Can anyone confirm this? This would piss me off to no end; it's not like I actually tune in until the second game anyway.

Well if the first game actually airs... there won't be any commentary.

Anyways, until the lockout is over CBC has been deprogrammed from my TV. I'm not watching the crap they have on, and the horrible news coverage...

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...28&hubName=nhl

Goalies could be wearing different jerseys than the rest of the team (ala soccer).

Which is kind of stupid... in soccer, I'm sure one of the reasons for different jersies was that sometimes it may be difficult to realize who is the goalie (and who can handle the ball) in a bunch of players.

If you can't figure out who the goalie in hockey is, then you really need glasses ;).