I agree to a point, RM, but at least to me, there seems to be a hell of a lot more far right screamers then there are far left..

That's true to an extent, but far more on the right don't want compromise. From another Pew Poll:

62/33 of the GOP favored stick to position over compromise

39/54 of Dems felt the same way

It's numbers like those that really make me worry about any debt limit compromise.

I think that's because it's easier for a far right screamer to make the news to show how insane they are, while the left does a much better job of covering up their nutjobs. Or rather, the left is much better at PR than the right.

Let's not forget that both sides have extremists willing to kill to get their point across, for example. The far right has abortion doctor killers and McVeigh, the far left has the nutjobs burning down resorts out west.

{shrug} Call it what you like but often the product of some compromises isn't worth saving.

So either "the majority of registered voters" are now far left/right or the word "far" really no longer applies. I mean, if you're over half the pie then it's kind of hard to be simply the edge. (I know there's a mixed metaphor in there somewhere but hopefully you get what I mean).

The same article also notes that even the supposed middle is increasingly ideological.

Which just speaks to the GOP's dwindling base now and in the future as caucasians continue to decline as a % of the overall population...

What, you mean that we can't have conservatives of other colors? Shit, somebody better call Herman.

WI Senator Herb Kohl to retire

That's opens up a tough one for the Dems, especially if somebody like Paul Ryan runs. I wonder if Russ Feingold tries to get back to the Senate as I don't know of any other Dems that stand out as possibilities and if somebody like Paul Ryan runs it stands a good chance of turning Republican anyway.

2012 is going to be brutal for Dems in the Senate. There were a number of seats won in 2006 that they'll struggle to hold and retirements just make things that much tougher. Even if Obama wins coattails generally aren't as long for an incumbent.

Looks as if Obama is going to increase the US porn export business in Pakistan.

Osama bin Laden: Porn Found in bin Laden Hideout: US Officials - CNBC

I'm sure an intense investigation into the porn will be conducted.

That's still a small percent. The Pew poll showed 25% viewed themselves as "mostly Republican". I dont' know if that counts as being a Republican, but if it does, then 62% of that is only 15%. And 39% of the 40% who call themselves Democrat is right at 15% as well.

That's 30% of the voting base that is strong in their beliefs, still a minority although a little bigger than I thought it would be. That 30% is also the loudest of all.

We hit the debt limit today. We've got @11 weeks before the GOP throws the country into default.

Madness.

Oh yeah - I meant to make a "Happy Debt Limit Armageddeon" post this morning.

Whoops.

So you're saying now would be good time to start looking for a job in Europe or East Asia?

Europe isn't good unless they can straighten out the PIG.

East Asia won't do well if the USA allows itself to crash.

What about Brazil? How's Brazil looking?

Not sure about Brazil the county, but, Brazilian women...looking good.

I'm brushing off my spanish* knowledge so I can move to Brazil once we default.


*dumb american joke.

I did pick Brazil for a specific reason. :D (Although Argentina is a more than viable alternative)

I commend you on your choice/s. :)

There's just something about that continents women...

I get that President Obama's M.O. is to let the legislators do their thing before he steps in.

But I really would not mind if he got in front of this debt ceiling thing and started explaining the reality of it to the public.

Not sure what thread is best for this but I found the shit Beck was spewing about Meghan McCain to be rather pathetic. Grown men acting like that. How much can one person hate women?

Some say it's madness to have gotten to this point, as well as madness to continue the insanity.

I'd agree with that, but forcing the government into default isn't the way to deal with the problem. If you don't believe me maybe you'll believe Reagan.

.

Ratings. All about ratings. We both agree it is sad but he gets both supporters and haters watching his every move. This happens all the time with local sports radio.

I believe in the last 60 years, the debt limit has been raised about 80+ times (or something I heard). In fact, these idiots in the (R) caucus had no problem raising it, what 7 times during W's tenure? Suddenly, it's too much to handle.

I agree it sucks to raise the debt limit, but nothing anyone is putting out there actually addresses these issues. So we're going to screw the people because these idiots can't think past their re-election.

Doing nothing or the status quo isn't the way to deal with the problem either. Something different has to be done.

ps. I didn't believe much in Reagan then or now. Nice try though.

I would submit that the head idiot that can't think past his re-election is Obama.

And the tea party posterboy Reagan raised it more than any president in history.

I agree with everything you said except for your conclusion. You had me for a while until you brought it back to the D vs R baseball game.

Can't we just apply for a shitload more discover cards or something? Maybe try to get a couple in the dog's name? That should keep us afloat for another few months.

The GOP line would be more believable if those in the House didn't vote for a budget that would require the debt limit to be raised for the next decade.

It's hard to know when to really take a stand. Sure, not raising the debt limit would cause huge problems. But doing so would once again just push the consequences off. And hey, I'm all about pushing consequences off, I do it in my personal life all the time. But someday, somehow, in some way - isn't this a problem we need to address? If we absolutely insist on refusing to do anything if it causes any pain at all, and instead are content to just wait until the negative effects come in a way we absolutely can't control, push off, or mitigate - that's going to suck a lot worse.

This problem isn't going to just go away. Maybe the effort is misguided but at least there's some heavy artillery now trying to force someone's hand. The Dems could do the same kind of thing in trying to force tax increases I suppose. But if they consider these kind of tactics abhorrent, then what exactly is their strategy to get things in control? Keep talking about it a lot? Keep posting charts on message boards to show how evil everyone else is?

Buccaneer, I don't think you understand what happens if we don't raise the debt ceiling.

What's the sense in trying to avert an economic catastrophe by forcing an economic catastrophe?

edit: The time to deal with the problem is in the budget negotiations. And really, a deal is out there for the taking. Does anyone believe the Dems wouldn't agree to a package of 50-60% spending cuts and 50-40% tax increases? For the GOP this isn't really about the deficit, if it was they could get a deal. This is about changing the role of government and they're willing to push us towards default in order to win that ideological battle. It's reckless and irresponsible.

I think obviously the goal is to raise the debt limit, but get a shitload of federal cuts beforehand. The latter will hurt too, but not as much as as raising the debt limit, and not as much as ignoring the problem entirely.

What is the Dems plan to address this? Is there one? I know philosophically, "higher taxes" is most of the plan - but they don't seem to have any idea how to even accomplish that.

And may I ask how you do? It seems like both parties are all over this on both sides every time it comes up for a vote so why would I believe any of the nonsense coming out of Obama's mouth when in 2006 he said...

"The fact that we're here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means 'The buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit."

The same people who didn't forsee the financial crisis coming, the same people who hung the mission accomplished banner, the same people who can't seem to do anything about the economy now. They are the ones telling us we have to raise the debt ceiling. How can they be so certain? And don't give another bullshit "What if?" like we get with the foolish war on terror all the time. (and the bailout of foreign banks with American tax money) Give me some specifics...

EDIT: And no I have no idea what will happen but hardly think any of the current "experts" have given me one reason to believe they know either.

Well obviously, raising the debt limit only has horrible consequences when Republicans wants to to it.

Nobody can know exactly what would happen but clearly both parties have mastered the art of fear mongering, whether it comes to economics or national security.

For one, the hyperinflation that you're so worried about starts immediately after we're unable to pay our treasury debts. After that the laid-off government workers, retirees without SS and Medicare, and contractors not getting paid throw the country into a deeper recession than 2008. Then the global economy goes into a tailspin with no reserve currency.

Or we could raise the debt limit and negotiate a budget deal that doesn't give the GOP everything they want. Which sounds better?

According to who? Again, the same economists who forsaw the housing crisis? The same politicians who bailed out every corporation and foreign bank and not the average US citizen? How are you so certain? Or is this the same bullshit as the terror alert system that we once again just have to trust Washington DC on?

Anyone who uses the debt ceiling in politics doesn't understand what it is and what it means to not raise it. That goes for Obama, Tea Partiers, or whoever. I'm not defending any politician or taking a side in the debate. Just saying that taking a stand on the debt ceiling on a message board is cute, but it doesn't work in reality. It would amount to the biggest financial catastrophe we've ever seen in this country.

The country definitely needs to get its spending in order. But that isn't going to be done this way. There needs to be serious discussions and voters need to hold politicians accountable for the budgets they put together. The problem isn't politicians, it's the voters. We want a nice balanced budget but we don't want anything cut from it and certainly don't want higher taxes.

Most economists saw the housing bubble and had talked about it for years. Most of them didn't understand how deep the fraud and deception ran within the financial industry however.

Once again how do you know this? So the only way for me out of credit card debt and mortgage debt is to borrow more? Why does anyone ever delcare bankruptcy? Why are the rules different for countries? Because some economists that are in bed with the government said so?

And most us (including you) see the fraud and deception with the politicians. So again why raise the debt ceiling? Why not make these fuckers finally make the tough decisions that you or I would have had to make years ago? Raising the debt ceiling just gives them more time for D vs. R bullshit. I realize it is all political theater and they will raise it again but what I don't understand is why we keep voting these crooks back into office every year.

(And yes I am just some guy on a message board but who the fuck are any of these politicians except for mouthpieces of the corporations? You are very rational most times about how both D/R are just crooks but then fall for their game of "We have to raise the ceiling, we can't cut anything at all!")

It's very possible that Democrats freak out and agree to bigger cuts than we ever would have gotten without this perhaps insane Republican gamble. So there's a reason for optimism here, though its not without risk. (And the "risk" just involves shaking this situation up sooner rather than later).

I remember a thread here a while back about how a city couldn't afford some atheistic city services, and citizens were chipping in to help out (cleaning up parks, etc.) So many people here considered that a catastrophe, that the city wasn't paying for this stuff it couldn't afford anymore. How are we going to get past this mindset? I think it's going to take a crisis, or a threatened crisis, or an closely averted crisis. I think maybe that's what (some) Republicans are trying to do here. Get people thinking about the real, practical damage of uncontrollable debt and spending. I don't think it will work, the debt ceiling will be raised and everyone will forget this ever happened and we'll wait obliviously until the next crisis.

So if the U.S. stops paying it's bills nothing too bad will happen?

It's insane to push the country into default to prove a point. Literally everything you're worried about as consequences of excess spending will happen overnight if we don't raise the debt limit. Even with massive spending cuts that theoretically balance the budget the debt limit will still need to be raised because things don't equal out on a day to day basis.

You can't apply household economics to governments.

If you want to stop debt then vote for revenue increases and/or spending cuts.

Voting to keep revenue down and spending up and THEN taking a stand against the debt ceiling like it is some kind of principled fucking position is hypocritical and ignorant.

Again, I don't think you understand what it means to not raise the debt ceiling. I don't think you understand what happens to the economy.

The United States defaulting on their sovereign debt would be catastrophic. It would cause a run on Treasuries, the bond market would implode, and our future interest rates for borrowing would skyrocket. We would no longer be the world's reserve currency.

This also leads to massive financial uncertainty. As we saw with Lehman, when people don't know what's happening, they pull their money out. We'll see a run on money market accounts like we saw in 2008. When some of the safest investments out there start failing, that's some big time trouble.

None of this accounts for what happens on main street. With less money available, we of course see jobs cut everywhere again, spending stalls, and another kickass recession.

The funny thing is your argument has been that we didn't foresee everything in 2008 so we shouldn't pretend to predict the future. But what you aren't mentioning is what we did see in 2008. We saw what happens when the financial markets are fucked with. We saw how they intertwine with each other. We saw what happens when banks have no money. So don't pretend that you weren't given a glimpse into what would happen if we stopped paying our bills.