That's true to a minimal extent, but it doesn't make you slightest bit qualified either through the experience of doing something to further the wellbeing of others or the basic knowledge required to make informed choices.

No, it's true to the maximum extent. You live in this country you have skin in the game as the decisions made by your representatives impact your life.

Who makes this test by the way?

That's not maximum extent at all. You can live your whole life and ignore the political sphere almost completely. Lots of people do that, just like you buy things from Amazon every week without worrying about who owns it or how they run it.

As for who makes the test, an independent commission of some kind.

Unless you're living off the grid, you're in the political sphere. The roads you drive on, laws you must abide by, fresh water you drink, etc are all part of politics.

Will these commissions be like the ones that draw up the congressional districts?

Look at it this way. Following results are from a May 2017 study by Haven Insights. There are many other similar polls over the years.

** 37% knew the name of their representative in the US House. This is to say nothing of their record, or what their job is, or what the various branches of government are even responsible for. Couldn't tell you their name.

** Almost twice that number hilariously thought the representative that almost half of them couldn't name was overpaid.

** A third of those who voted in the 2016 elections just over six months before this didn't think the US House representative race in their district had even been on the ballot (hint: it was. It is everywhere. Every time)

My point is simply this; we're amazingly fortunate that our government is as good as it is. With this level of ignorance on the part of the electorate, nonsensical policy is inevitable and it's only the noble restraint of those politicians we love to deride (often justifiably) that keeps matters from being far, far worse than they are.

An uninformed electorate is an unsustainable thing in a free society, and a surefire recipe for disaster. There may be better ideas than mine for what to do about it. I'm open to those. Environmental policy? Infrastructure laws? What vanishingly small percentage of people even know what the elected officials they voted for or against want done on those issues? What difference does it make if they are affected by things they make no real effort to understand (in the aggregate mind, not every single individual). It's hiring a mechanic who doesn't know what brakes are. Who really thinks that's a good idea?

You want voter turnout and people to be educated about the candidates, allow gambling on the election. Would see record turnout.

There is gambling on the election.

Only offshore. If you legalized it nationwide would make the superbowl look like small potatoes.

Trump's Oklahoma campaign chair to plead guilt to child sex trafficking

The conspiracy is inside the house!

Isn't that a retread from 2017?

I get all over people for doing this sort of clickbait thing on Facebook so why would that be ok here. That's not current news so I don't understand the promotion of it here again.

Yeah, I didn't check the date. I was more interested in the QAnon part, honestly. The storm is coming!

Yesterday’s retread clickbait news was talking about a new highly contagious mutation strain of covid that was found in Malaysia.


(Which it has been the dominant US strain since April or before)

I think politics is corrupt enough on its own without more help :D

Turnout isn't particularly important to me - the people who do vote having a vague clue based on reasonable information why they vote for people is a much bigger issue IMO. More low-information voters would only make voting decisions even worse.

So in addition to the STL gun-waving couple, apparently Nick Sandman will also be speaking at the RNC convention. It's like a parody of a parody at this point.

I don't think the answer to our issues is less Democracy. And sure, if forced to go they may vote “None”, but a few may decide to better educate themselves. But I think we should aim for our system to represent the voice of the people and not the voice of the majority of 60% of our people (on the high end).

If people are betting money on the election you can bet they would be more educated. Would you bet on a baseball game without knowing the weather, starting pitchers, if Mike Trout was in the lineup, etc...?

The information you would need to know to effectively bet elections doesn't make you any more informed on the issues, just what issues/positions people are more likely to vote on in particular districts/states, as well as particular information about the candidates. I'm not sure that kind of knowledge is really all that useful if the goal is a more informed electorate.

Some of the most successful sports bettors couldn’t name a player on either team, nor do they care. The Books detest these guys.

I don't think there's any evidence to support that claim. Plenty of high information voters cast a ballot for Roy Moore for example. More knowledge about the system doesn't mean the chosen leaders will be better. And why is, say knowledge of international baning systems obviously a superior criteria for a candidate than is he/she understands my life?

And then what does better even mean? Plenty of people think Trump is better. I hated Bush2, but plenty of people think he was better than Obama. What losing candidates were obviously better than the candidate that won?

Limiting who can vote just ends up with the people in power consolidating their collective hold on power.

I’m not sure how feasible that is, based on extremely long lines in previous elections. If they were to stand 6’ apart, the people in the back of the line would be in a different zip code.

I guess they’re rolling back all the USPS changes.

No, DeJoy is just promising not to do any more changes.

Isn’t this what the were complaining about?

The U.S. Postal Service will halt its controversial cost-cutting initiatives until after the election — canceling service reductions, reinstating overtime hours and ceasing the removal of mail-sorting machines and public collection boxes, Postmaster General Louis DeJoy announced in a statement Tuesday.

But are they putting the machines/mail boxes back? Or they just sitting on the damage they already have done? I am not seeing confirmation the machines have been put back in place.

Getting the mail back and running is great for all the people who need it.

I don't trust it for the election.

I think that everyone who is at all capable of voting in person needs to do it. Or, if they do need an absentee ballot, to drop it off at a collection box and not trust the mail.

That's really the big thing. All of those sorting machines are just gone. That also gives away what they are trying to do. There's no short-term cost savings in having them physically removed rather than just idled. They were removing machnes so as to break the USPS.

Why? Plenty of free countries with even more democratic forms of government than us that have handled this just fine.

Or do it really early. I guess emailed my request for an absentee ballot today. I'll try to send it as early as possible.

How are the citizens of the twin cities going to vote by mail look what the GOP did to these post offices! Oh wait no that was those peaceful protests right?

Perhaps the other 32,000 post offices can handle it?

Oh from the news and speaker Pelosi's call to action I thought they were getting rid of all of the personal mailboxes and post offices? So they arent?

No, they were purposely slowing down the mail by cutting hours and instituting new policies that would leave mail sitting for days. There are reports of them removing sorting machines and shutting down mailboxes.

I didn't see where Pelosi said what you claim she said.

Whatever point you're trying to make is so red hot that it is almost completely invisible.

Somebody burnt a post office down and anyone worried about voter suppression is a hypocrite.

I really respect the fact that you're willing to go against this echo chamber a lot of the time, but is this really a hill you want to die on? It is so blatantly obvious what was going on, hell, Trump didn't even deny it.

Not somebody. The COVID proof protesters who can protest in crowds of 10000s and not get sick but cant stand in line on election day to vote due to the deadly virus.

I hope the anti-conservative arguments you claim to make on conservative leaning boards aren't as dumb as the anti-liberal arguments you make here.

It's not the echo chamber just the circular logic. Virus not deadly to masses of people wearing masks without an inch between them, all the time in the world to attend multiple protests every day of the week. However need to stand in line on Nov 3? No way! You kidding with the deadly virus and all my time contraints!

Yeah you are right. The election hangs in the balance, the free world hangs in the balance, the biggest controversy of the last 24 hours! How will anyone vote if the blue mailboxes are removed from areas? If Trump wins it will surely be because of this!

I won't dispute the idiocy of some of this protesting in a pandemic, though at least they mainly wear masks, but get serious. The number of people that are protesting are dwarfed by the number of voters that have a legit concern about standing in long lines at the poll and mostly not the same crowd.

Mail in voting gives everyone a chance to vote and there are ways to ensure the validity. Restricting access to polling stations and fucking with USPS to the point where some people would skip voting over taking the risk, or not be able to get to a poll is suppression. It's naive not to see the differences.

What if I said I don't want Trump voters or Jorgenson voters to catch COVID either? We know indoor spaces with lots of people are dangerous, if we can, we should avoid those situations.

dola

The joint Senate Intelligence Committee report makes it clear that the Trump/Russia connection in 2016 was basically the worst case scenario.

Putin was directly working to harm Clinton ad help Trump
Manafort was feeding campaign info to a Russian intelligence operative
Wikileaks was working with Russian intelligence
Stone was working with Wikileaks and communicating with Trump
Trump and the campaign were looking for Russian help
Bannon and Trump Jr. lied to the committee and were referred to the DoJ

NBC/Washington Post polls (rated A+ by 538) have Biden ahead 10 with Likely Voters, 12 with Registered Voters, and 12 with All Voters.

BUT THE 3RD PARAGRAPH SAID THERE'S NO PROOF OF COLLUSION BETWEEN TRUMP AND RUSSIA.

-Every conservative on the internet right now

So here is my own belief on voter suppression... maybe people just don't give a shit about voting? (And the thing is I am NOT defending the GOP and agree they likely do these things because they think it gives them an advantage. Queue thesloppy getting all up in arms now because I said I hate the GOP as well)

So let's take a guy like JPhillips. Highly educated, knows his stuff, goes out on election day and votes. Going to guess he probably uses some form of ID but maybe he shows a utility bill or mails in his vote. His contention that 40%+ of this country that never votes wants to vote but are just being suppressed. It's not that the two major parties show out shit candidates every year, it's not that people maybe liked a candidate like Sanders and get pissed when his own party fucks him over, it's not that a lot of people just don't care, but they are being suppressed.

How are they being suppressed? Well for one they can't find the time in 4 years since the last time they were suppressed (or 2 years when this same argument is used about Senate/Congressional elections) to get a driver's license, some form of ID, or register to vote. They are dying to vote mind you but could not do that in 1000+ days. If they do have ID it's that they can't make it to the polls on Nov 3. He can, I can, you can but they can't. Employers are required to let them vote, they could even go before or after work, but must be dirty tactics keeping them from voting.

Why can't they? I personally don't have an answer for you but he is omniscient so they are probably black and probably just dying to vote for Joe Biden. In fact their suppression is why all of these candidates are winning and losing they have that much power that is being taken from them. Throw in this year where we will likely match or exceed the vote totals of every single previous presidential election but it will still be the pandemic that loses the election for Biden.

What is my opinion? Maybe they all would vote for Trump. I don't presume they are all black and I don't presume what they all would do. Maybe they would all vote Libertarian. Then we would have an issue on our hands. But no he has solved that a third party will never be viable but can't wrap his head around the idea that maybe 40% of the people just don't care or want to vote. Maybe it's that simple?

In Oregon & Washington turnout for presidential elections has been above 80% in practically every instance since adopting voting entirely by mail.

Also, constructing an entire argument out of your ass and then putting JPhillips name on it, in the middle of a discussion you are having with someone else, is a king douche move. Why do you do that?

lol

It must be nice to "know" so many things.

I've never said or suggested over 40%. The GOP has been caught in recordings and in writing admitting they are doing things to make it harder for Dem leaning groups to vote. They'll catch some GOP voters in those nets, but targeting is detailed enough that they'll be very, very likely to catch more Dem voters than GOP voters. They don't need huge percentages, especially in close elections. A percentage point in the right places can swing an election. DO enough things, make registration harder, close polling places, voter ID, restrict college students, use fewer ballot machines, etc. and you might swing a close state.

You understand that an uninspiring candidate can turn off a voter. Why would you question that making registration and voting a multi-day, several hour process might do the same thing?

How it is possibly a multi-day process? Let's forget that most of the states allow mail in or absentee voting. But let's just talk a place where Kentucky where I don't think you can do either. It takes multiple days to vote?

Many states require a separate registration.

There's a large number of people out there that work long ass days (sometimes multiple jobs), don't have a polling location close to them or their polling location has hours long lines. They get to work their day, go stand in line to vote, and still figure out dinner for their family, take the kids to practice, pick them up from school/daycare, and take care of their other daily duties.

Do people figure this out and still vote? Sure. But making voting easier definitively raises turnout so it's not that these people prefer not to vote. People that are getting their ass kicked by life are just generally less likely to justify taking the time to go stand in line.

So you think it's cool and does not discourage voting when 600,000 have like 2 polling places because the GOP state legislatures shutter all the polling places? I'm sure in you took the rural half of GA and told them they could all vote in 1 place and may have to drive hours (when they do not get off work) and wait in 6 hour lines, you would see a massive decrease.

Closing down polling places is suppression. Closing down polling places and then removing mailboxes and shuttering post office infrastructure in August down 10 points is the definition of suppression. They even told you it was in interviews and articles.

The guy in Washington has suggested it may take years for this particular election, since ballots are destined to be stolen and all.

Police: 'Umbrella Man' was a white supremacist trying to incite Floyd rioting - StarTribune.com

Just wanted to be clear how it started. Protests were peaceful there until this dude showed up and reached his goal.

Yeah sorry I'm not upset with this scenario. It's one day every 2 or 4 years. You could skip the practices, pick up fast food, and stand in line. No problem if you don't want to but it's not being suppressed.

And my question is why are the people getting their ass kicked in life necessarily a net gain for Democrats?

He burned down both post offices? Wow! Wonder if a white supremacist caused the gas stations in St. Louis to burn down and the off duty cop to be shot also.

Goes back to the fact that you and I can somehow control ourselves and not commit crimes but the people who looted and burned down post offices just couldn't stop themselves since a white supremacist broke out some windows.

JPhillips said it takes people multiple days to vote. Not counting the votes just the act of voting.

Purposely making it more difficult to vote is suppression even if it's still possible to vote. I don't know how you don't see it that way, but it's called suppression not prevention. Just go vote anyway when you're working multiple jobs and still not making ends meet is easy for some to say but ignores the real problem. It's basically a variation of the bootstraps bullshit.

We don't really know who it's a net gain for honestly, but we have one party that encourages people to vote and one party that wants less people to vote. You may not see it as a big deal, but if your platform depends on less people voting then your platform sucks.

Is it not suppression when the two party system doesnt allow other parties in the presidential debates? Or is that just the way things are? Not a fan of the GOP, would love to have nationwide mail in or even electronic voting. But also dont feel like this or Big bad Russia is why the Democrats are losing presidential elections. Obama was able to win in landslides... maybe it's the shitty candidates?

The bootstraps arguement is about someones lifetime. This is an event that happens once every 4 years.

JFC, do you not read?

Many, maybe most, I don't know the exact number, states require a separate registration that must be done weeks before the election. That, by definition, means voting requires work on multiple days.

Unlike some European countries where everyone is automatically registered and sent a voting card when you reach the legal age.

You not caring about voter suppression doesn't mean it isn't happening. I'm happy to concede the point that you don't care.

And why must something that is so simple for me and probably for you have to definitely be so foreboding to someone else? Maybe as I have said they just dont give a shit about voting? Not a bad person but dont think Trump or Biden effects their lives at all. It is not hard to register to vote to claim it is for minorities is subtle racism IMO. I can do it but you are less than me so it must be a huge chore for you.

No way Trump loses. Biden is all about what could be and Trump is about what is.

This is ridiculous. Jimmy Carter? Oh my.

Not everyone has time in their day to post 2000 times in the Trump thread I agree but they probably have time to fill out a voter registration card. How condescending are you? People lower than you are just incapable of putting together a day to register and a day to vote? Subtle racism on your part?

And lets throw out Blpow job guy. Thee goes your Epstein arguement.

MyPillow CEO Lindell Says White House Asked Him To Look For ‘Cures’ For Covid-19

Somehow this is not a parody headline.


And just for kicks:

Probably because you don't live in an area where it requires 5 hours in line to vote. Or part of a demographic being purged from the voting rolls.

Do you really think voter suppression is not a thing? Republicans go on the record saying it is part of their strategy to winning. But maybe you know more than them.

No, complete ignorance on yours, sadly.

I'm stuck on the 2 day thing honestly. So I register in let's say August or September and this is a long drawn out multi hour process? No some people just dont care or want to vote. They arent Democrats dying to vote. Where are the 5 hour lines specifically because I will offer some solutions if you give me a city.

How long did it take you to register to vote? How long does it take you to vote?

Ignorance is claiming registering to vote is this big chore that people really want to do but just cant do. I saw 60 Mizzou football players did it in one day...

Missouri football players register to vote after leading march

That must mean John Lewis was a racist. Same for Obama, too. It's all about race because that's the easiest way to target Dem voters. What other group can you define that's 90% likely to vote Dem? And it just so happens that decades of housing policy has also made it pretty easy to find almost all-black neighborhoods and voting precincts. You can't target individual voters spaced around the state, but you can target all the people that live in neighborhood X.

It's like stealing a car. Everything we do, from rolling up the windows, to locking the doors, to parking in a garage, to using a car alarm, etc. don't keep people from being able to steal your car. Each thing, though, makes it more difficult and time consuming, so with each protective measure some people decide not to bother. That's voter suppression. It won't stop somebody from voting, but each hurdle means some number of people won't bother. Put up enough hurdles and you might swing a close election.

It is pretty simple for me, although it could be much easier even in NY. But that's because I'm not being targeted. Most importantly, I live in NY and the state government isn't running supression efforts. But if they were, my demographic points to me being more likely to vote GOP.

When did I say can't?

Atlanta had 5 hour waits. Milwaukee had 2 hour waits on average.

In Georgia, they added an exact match law before a Governor race that would see a lot of new voters being added. This would put your registration in pending status if you added an extra character or misplaced a hyphen in your address. Even stuff like typing Avenue when it's listed as Ave on your license would flag it.

It doesn't take me long to register or vote. But I'm in a state (and nice neighborhood) that isn't trying to suppress it at this time.

Seventh Circuit Hears Oral Arguments in Wisconsin Voter ID Case | American Civil Liberties Union





Googling for more:

A Black Man Brought 3 Forms of ID to the Polls in Wisconsin. He Still Couldn’t Vote. | The Nation


The article goes on to document 7 total steps the man took to try to get a voter ID without success.

this is the purpose of voter id laws in america

It's not that people are incompetant or lazy, there are ACTIVE EFFORTS TO MAKE IT HARDER TO VOTE. These things get combined with the reduction of voting stations, purging of voter rolls and countless other things designed to require active monitoring and active effort far above and beyond anything most of us have to do, and the active intent is to make it harder people (that just happen to be predominantly non-white) to vote.

Solved the 5 hour wait...

Absentee ballots | Georgia voters can apply now | 11alive.com

Solved the 2 hour wait...

I want to vote absentee | Wisconsin Elections Commission

But I guess this is too much to ask right? Or what is the next excuse?

My favorite thing is when people pretend something isn't happening despite the people doing it admitting to it.

Who are you arguing with panerd? They literally admit what they are trying to do here.

Trump adviser tells Wisconsin Republicans party suppresses votes - Chicago Tribune

I'm going with the highest voted reddit answer in the thread about this: "DeJoy: Okay, okay I'll stop! Now that I'm already done..."

SI

You didn't. The people not as capable as you have this huge process to register which you have yet to explain why it is hard. And then I was asking Rainmaker because most states allow mail in which avoids the 5 hour lines and the people who work 3 jobs from even having to vote on election day. Still trying to figure out what is difficult about registering to vote and voting.

:lol:

SI

hxxp://www.kqed.org/lowdown/14543/how-to-navigate-americas-perplexing-patchwork-of-voting-laws


Portions of the voting rights act were scaled back in 2013 and 16 states with Republican led legislatures decided to make it harder to either register to vote or to actually vote.



Some of the ones that were the most obvious (including the above one in Wisconsin that was used for the primaries before being relaxed for the presidential election) were struck down for intentionally targeting black voters. That is to say - the supreme court of the united states of america stated that at least in some cases - laws were being intentionally enacted to make it harder for black people to vote. Something tells me that extremely similar laws just slightly more clever in their racist goals may actually have that effect.

I'm arguing with the idea that it is hard to vote in this country.

If Biden goes globalism, which he is, he loses.

This country is way to the nationalistic side. Nationalism before all.

Trump wins if Biden goes that strategy.

And both of us are throwing countless sources at you showing that the GOP is intentionally trying to make it harder to vote, and is doing so successfully. So WHY are you still arguing is probably the better question.

The supreme court has agreed in the more blatant cases, the GOP has openly admitted it multiple times in multiple forums, numerous studies show the impact of it. So, what's really going on, hmm?

It is harder to vote for some people. Also harder to register for some people.

If you provide an option for in-person voting, it should be equal for everyone. One group shouldn't vote in 10 minutes while others wait 5 hours. It's ridiculous to argue that they should have anticipated a 5 hour wait and ordered a mail-in ballot a month or so earlier.

Why is one party trying so hard and admitting to these tactics if it doesn't work? Seems like a huge waste of time from people who have spent their lives in this field.

But it's not condescending and racist to continue to use stuff like Wisconsin as your focal point of your argument when you can register any day of the week and can vote absentee for any reason? Everyone in Wisconsin can vote with a short trip to a multitude of agencies to register at any point and then by requesting an absentee ballot and sending it in or god forbid taking it in. The long waits are just red herrings they don't effect voting this way at all.

Listen, just tell us you're a racist so we can stop arguing. We all know it. Why the charade?

So now it's not the 5 hour wait but something else. Of course... :lol:

OMG!!! He disagrees with the echo chamber. RACIST!!!!!! :lol:

Then why does the right continually engage in efforts to make it more difficult? If it doesn't work why do it?

The 5 hour wait is absolutely a form of suppression. How do you see some people voting in 10 minutes in person and others waiting 5 hours to vote in person and call that fair?

The balloting/election stuff is certainly relevant but it shouldn't be ignored that the USPS is also very near literal financial collapse & the recent changes that were put in place both limited their income & explicitly delayed the sorting and delivery of first class mail.

You see, they just haven't figured out over the last 150 years that voter suppression doesn't exist in this country.

Polling has shown a continued rise in support for immigration and free trade over the Trump years. Even things like working with allies can be seen at higher levels than in 2016.

In the NC case Radii mentioned the court said the GOP was targeting African-American voters, "with almost surgical precision."

.

Ummm?

2020 brings us this headline, which will barely even register as only like the 237th most crazy thing to happen this year:


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-o...t-toxic-plant/

SI

Yep. Why I deleted it. Also why I am calling it a night.

Yup.

I think it is time for everyone to retreat to their corners....