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cuervo72 07-01-2021 10:48 AM

Stalin's Russia was a one-party state.
Mao's China was a one-party state.
Mussolini's Italy was a one-party state.
Hitler's Germany was a one-party state.
DPRK is a one-party state.

It's not centralization that is the issue, here.

Edward64 07-02-2021 05:48 AM

I read the article but still unsure of the details or if it really applies to me. I get surprised all the time from dentist and optometrist (not my GP which I don't go to very often) because they can't (or won't) tell me how much my out of pocket costs are. It's more "we'll bill insurance and you pay the rest BS".

That's what I want to get fixed. A firm, upfront out of pocket cost before I engage in their services. What other industry do we "buy" something but not know a "cost" upfront or at least a good faith estimate. Give me single payer (+ option for private insurance).

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/01/polit...ule/index.html
Quote:

Patients would no longer receive surprise medical bills for emergency treatment and certain other health care services from out-of-network providers starting in January under a rule issued Thursday by the Biden administration.

The interim final rule starts the process of filling out the No Surprises Act, a contentious and long-delayed bill Congress passed in December and former President Donald Trump signed into law after much lobbying from both insurers and providers. Subject to a 60-day comment period, the rule is the first of several the Biden administration will roll out to implement the law.

Under the rule, patients would be responsible only for their in-network cost-sharing for both emergencies and certain non-emergencies where they are unable to choose in-network providers.

Edward64 07-02-2021 06:04 AM

Yup, let's make it happen. Also good to hear we are taking care of the Afghans that helped us (expediting visas etc.).

Quote:

The last US troops have left Bagram Air Base, according to a US defense official, marking the end of the American presence at the sprawling compound that became the center of military power in Afghanistan.

The full withdrawal of US troops from the country is not complete yet but expected very soon.

Nearly two decades after the first American troops arrived at Bagram and helped take control of the field after the 9/11 attacks, the transfer of the field to the Afghan military proceeded without fanfare, a hushed finale that portends the imminent conclusion of America's longest war.

CrimsonFox 07-02-2021 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3338713)
Yup, let's make it happen. Also good to hear we are taking care of the Afghans that helped us (expediting visas etc.).


They will be well cared for


GrantDawg 07-02-2021 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3338711)
I read the article but still unsure of the details or if it really applies to me. I get surprised all the time from dentist and optometrist (not my GP which I don't go to very often) because they can't (or won't) tell me how much my out of pocket costs are. It's more "we'll bill insurance and you pay the rest BS".

That's what I want to get fixed. A firm, upfront out of pocket cost before I engage in their services. What other industry do we "buy" something but not know a "cost" upfront or at least a good faith estimate. Give me single payer (+ option for private insurance).

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/01/polit...ule/index.html

I was in the hospital multiple times almost four years ago. I still get bills from doctors I never saw in the hospital, and some of them for thousands of dollars. It is ridiculous. Anyone I see at a hospital should be payed by the hospital. It is even worse when a hospital is in-coverage for your insurance, but the providers are not. It is criminal.

GrantDawg 07-02-2021 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox (Post 3338717)
They will be well cared for


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kbtX6-XDg0

albionmoonlight 07-02-2021 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3338711)
That's what I want to get fixed. A firm, upfront out of pocket cost before I engage in their services. What other industry do we "buy" something but not know a "cost" upfront or at least a good faith estimate.


Yesterday, I had a diagnostic procedure that insurance does not cover. BUT it wasn't necessary--it was one of those "good to know" type tests. So it was priced like a normal consumer product b/c I could walk away if it was too expensive. It wasn't like insulin which people need to live, so they can charge $10,000 a vial for it. And the price wasn't veiled behind 10 layers of insurance.

I chose the place I went to because they were having a sale on the procedure.

It cost $99.

Lathum 07-02-2021 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3338722)
Yesterday, I had a diagnostic procedure that insurance does not cover. BUT it wasn't necessary--it was one of those "good to know" type tests. So it was priced like a normal consumer product b/c I could walk away if it was too expensive. It wasn't like insulin which people need to live, so they can charge $10,000 a vial for it. And the price wasn't veiled behind 10 layers of insurance.

I chose the place I went to because they were having a sale on the procedure.

It cost $99.


Literally the same thing. A scan to get my calcium score in my heart. I had to lay on the table in an imaging machine. It was $99. Had it been a required procedure through insurance would likely have been hundreds if not thousands.

albionmoonlight 07-02-2021 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3338724)
Literally the same thing. A scan to get my calcium score in my heart. I had to lay on the table in an imaging machine. It was $99. Had it been a required procedure through insurance would likely have been hundreds if not thousands.


That was my exact test :-)

PilotMan 07-02-2021 10:48 AM

My wife scheduled a well check to get her regular scrips renewed, got blood work done, etc....typically well checks are covered expenses. We got a bill for the copay. When she called to complain and ask why, it's because, she was told, that the doctor prescribed her 'new' medication and therefore it counts as a sick visit. This new medication was a script for vitamins. She called it out as bs, and the answer was, 'this is just how it is.' So, if you go see a doctor and you're well, IF they find something they don't like it's a sick visit. Coincidentally, if she had waited until after the appointment to do her blood work (she did hers so it was done and could be reviewed during the visit) the doctor could have just sent out a script after reviewing it and there's no way she would have been charged for that.

QuikSand 07-02-2021 11:09 AM

AP: Snake Oil Heart Calcium Tests Dupe Countless Victims With Nonsense $99 "Sale Price"

miked 07-02-2021 11:25 AM

I'm dreading the bill for my trip to the ER the other night. Turned out to be kidney stones and not the appendix the urgent care thought, but I'm sure the cost of a CT scan and some bloodwork (that took 5 hours of waiting) will be astronomical. I have decent insurance, but there are like 5 different deductibles (in-network, out-network, integrated, individual vs. family, etc) and they only cover once the deductible is hit.

Castlerock 07-02-2021 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3338720)
I was in the hospital multiple times almost four years ago. I still get bills from doctors I never saw in the hospital, and some of them for thousands of dollars. It is ridiculous. Anyone I see at a hospital should be payed by the hospital. It is even worse when a hospital is in-coverage for your insurance, but the providers are not. It is criminal.

My daughter had scheduled surgery a couple years ago. In advance, we picked an in-network hospital and asked how much it would cost. We were told that there is no way to know in advance. The day of the procedure, we were in the billing office. They said that our portion would be $700 and "the anesthesiologist will bill separately". I was under the impression that the $700 was the vast majority of my responsibility. Weeks later we got a bill for $700 and another for $7,000. The anesthesiologist was out of network but we had zero control over who walked into that room.

It is a common occurrence. It is immoral and should be criminal.

Lathum 07-02-2021 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3338730)
AP: Snake Oil Heart Calcium Tests Dupe Countless Victims With Nonsense $99 "Sale Price"


I was wondering why my left arm is sore 4 days later...

lungs 07-02-2021 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked (Post 3338732)
I'm dreading the bill for my trip to the ER the other night. Turned out to be kidney stones and not the appendix the urgent care thought, but I'm sure the cost of a CT scan and some bloodwork (that took 5 hours of waiting) will be astronomical. I have decent insurance, but there are like 5 different deductibles (in-network, out-network, integrated, individual vs. family, etc) and they only cover once the deductible is hit.


Had the exact same thing a few months ago. I was also dreading the bill but it turns out my insurance is pretty solid as all I was charged was a $100 ER visit co-pay. With the CT scan and all the other stuff they did to me, I racked up a $10,000 bill.

If I had the same insurance when I self-insured while farming, I'd be looking at $5000 out of pocket.

miked 07-02-2021 12:50 PM

Ironically, I work at the hospital where I was treated and is the only way to go in-network. You would think that would help, but Aetna gotta profit yo.

ISiddiqui 07-02-2021 07:12 PM

Tbf, heart calcium test is something my cardiologist said was useful. Though everywhere around here requires a doctor order (because I guess it is radiation).

Oh and Pilotman, that's called health care fraud. It's probably too late but I would have refused to pay and tell them you'd complain to the US Department of Labor (because I guess your wife isn't the only one they did this to, it may be something of interest to our Benefit Advisors). Actually you probably can still call to complain - https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ebsa/ab...gional-offices

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

larrymcg421 07-02-2021 09:00 PM

SCOTUS refuses to hear appeal from a florist who was fined for refusing to make an arrangement for a same sex wedding. Interestingly, it was Gorsuch, Alito, and Thomas who dissented. This means Barrett (along with Kavanaugh and Roberts) voted against the florist. Promising sign for future of LGBT rights.

Thomkal 07-02-2021 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3338765)
SCOTUS refuses to hear appeal from a florist who was fined for refusing to make an arrangement for a same sex wedding. Interestingly, it was Gorsuch, Alito, and Thomas who dissented. This means Barrett (along with Kavanaugh and Roberts) voted against the florist. Promising sign for future of LGBT rights.


Very surprised to see Barrett wasn't one of the dissenters.

BYU 14 07-02-2021 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3338728)
My wife scheduled a well check to get her regular scrips renewed, got blood work done, etc....typically well checks are covered expenses. We got a bill for the copay. When she called to complain and ask why, it's because, she was told, that the doctor prescribed her 'new' medication and therefore it counts as a sick visit. This new medication was a script for vitamins. She called it out as bs, and the answer was, 'this is just how it is.' So, if you go see a doctor and you're well, IF they find something they don't like it's a sick visit. Coincidentally, if she had waited until after the appointment to do her blood work (she did hers so it was done and could be reviewed during the visit) the doctor could have just sent out a script after reviewing it and there's no way she would have been charged for that.


It is going to depend on how your Doctor coded the claim, meaning the primary DX. If it is a well visit the primary DX code should reflect this, as well as the CPT for the consult. Check with your doctor on that and if they coded it as a well visit submit an OIG complaint. It the doctor coded it as a sick visit they can submit a corrected claim.

JPhillips 07-02-2021 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3338765)
SCOTUS refuses to hear appeal from a florist who was fined for refusing to make an arrangement for a same sex wedding. Interestingly, it was Gorsuch, Alito, and Thomas who dissented. This means Barrett (along with Kavanaugh and Roberts) voted against the florist. Promising sign for future of LGBT rights.


I saw a twitter feed on the last day of this term speculating that the attorneys in this case are terrible and the conservatives may be waiting for a stronger case.

NobodyHere 07-04-2021 09:21 AM

Hacking Attack Likely Hit Thousands of New Targets

Biden really needs to crack down on this crap and not just hand Putin a list of what is ok and not ok to attack.

Vegas Vic 07-04-2021 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3338767)
Very surprised to see Barrett wasn't one of the dissenters.


She hasn't exactly turned out to be the judicial torpedo that many liberals feared. She also voted with the 7-2 majority in the recent decision to reverse court rulings in Texas and other Republican-led states that struck down the Affordable Health Care Act's individual mandate provision.

It's kind of funny to go back and listen to Chuck Schumer's dramatic hyperbole during her confirmation hearing:
Quote:

"A vote by any senator for Judge Amy Coney Barrett is a vote to strike down the Affordable Care Act and eliminate protections for millions of Americans with preexisting conditions. By nominating Judge Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court, President Trump has once again put Americans' health care in the crosshairs."

bronconick 07-04-2021 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3338765)
SCOTUS refuses to hear appeal from a florist who was fined for refusing to make an arrangement for a same sex wedding. Interestingly, it was Gorsuch, Alito, and Thomas who dissented. This means Barrett (along with Kavanaugh and Roberts) voted against the florist. Promising sign for future of LGBT rights.


The Roberts Court is willing to occasionally throw a bone on cultural issues, because Democrats obsess about them and neglect voting rights (until very recently) and issues that favor the corporates and rich that always go against them.

PilotMan 07-04-2021 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3338850)


It's ok, trump said it was a fat guy in his mom's basement. There's no reason to fear a fat guy loser. Putin definitely had nothing to do with it.

Edward64 07-05-2021 06:00 AM

I guess Biden didn't hit his goal but still pretty good considering where we were in Jan.

The "lack of access" isn't near as relevant now, its pretty clear its lack of want to and trust.

Quote:

Some 67.1% of adults had at least one dose of Covid-19 vaccine by July 4, just short of his original target of 70%, according to the latest Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data on Sunday.

Edward64 07-05-2021 06:14 AM

Looking for updates to infrastructure but not much has happened since the bipartisanship agreement from a week ago. I assume the "Jobs" and "Family" plan comes next but predict it'll be severely diluted.

Quote:

The infrastructure proposal was negotiated by a bipartisan group of senators and endorsed by the president in June. The package would cost nearly $1 trillion over five years, with $579 billion in new spending. Legislative text for the proposal has not been released, but there is a basic framework with a breakdown on spending and proposed methods of paying for it.

The bill will be narrowly focused on "traditional" infrastructure, like roads, bridges, improving railways and expanding broadband. It would spend $312 billion for transportation, including $109 billion for roads, bridges and major projects, $49 billion for public transportation and $66 billion for passenger and freight rail. It also dedicates smaller amounts to safety, airports, electric buses and electric vehicle infrastructure — a priority for Mr. Biden.

CrimsonFox 07-05-2021 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3338850)


who cares if they hit Target? I don't shop there anyway.

larrymcg421 07-05-2021 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronconick (Post 3338853)
The Roberts Court is willing to occasionally throw a bone on cultural issues, because Democrats obsess about them and neglect voting rights (until very recently) and issues that favor the corporates and rich that always go against them.


Don't agree with this take at all. The Dems have been focusing on voting rights for a long time. Look at all the debates as voter ID laws sprung up. And it's not like the Dems are supporting pro-gay, anti-voting rights justices, so what exactly did SCOTUS accomplish with this supposed vote trading?

Also, Roberts himself was a pretty forceful dissenter on Obergefell. The reason LGBT rights did well for so long is because of Kennedy, a conservative leaning justice who consistently ruled in favor of LGBT rights.

Brian Swartz 07-05-2021 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72
It's not centralization that is the issue, here.


What is a one-party state if not an example of highly centralized power?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan
Arguing against my point by saying that the other side can be just a isn't a valid argument.


Huh? I think there's a word missing here that would help me understand what you are saying, but one of points specifically was that centralized authority is better than localized authority. Talking about ways in which centralized authority aka the other side can be a problem is as valid and germane as anything could be, unless I'm missing something.

Regarding the 'go spend more time in the south comment', I invite you to cite one single study/poll/etc. that indicates the type of proposals I mentioned have significant support.

NobodyHere 07-05-2021 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox (Post 3338884)
who cares if they hit Target? I don't shop there anyway.


:nono:

JonInMiddleGA 07-06-2021 06:37 AM

Within 20 minutes of the US's departure on Friday night the electricity was shut down and the base was plunged into darkness, the AP reported - a signal to looters who smashed through barriers and ransacked the abandoned buildings.

Twenty. Minutes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57682290

PilotMan 07-06-2021 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3338905)
What is a one-party state if not an example of highly centralized power?



Huh? I think there's a word missing here that would help me understand what you are saying, but one of points specifically was that centralized authority is better than localized authority. Talking about ways in which centralized authority aka the other side can be a problem is as valid and germane as anything could be, unless I'm missing something.

Regarding the 'go spend more time in the south comment', I invite you to cite one single study/poll/etc. that indicates the type of proposals I mentioned have significant support.


https://news.gallup.com/poll/193595/...ent-power.aspx

We're not talking about the disillusionment of the government, only the 'desire to make is small enough to drown it in a bathtub' arguments. I have never argued that a all powerful, central government should eliminate the states either, which is exactly what you're suggesting I have said, nor am I arguing the opposite. In fact, when the central government does not have the authority, the political power, or the funding is ceases to be effective. It can still exist, as it does in Mexico, but it loses out to warlords who effectively hold hostage the local and state governments. If you can't see the direction that some states are taking, and some of the more extremist factions within those states are having you're just being willingly ignorant.

tyketime 07-06-2021 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3338724)
Literally the same thing. A scan to get my calcium score in my heart. I had to lay on the table in an imaging machine. It was $99. Had it been a required procedure through insurance would likely have been hundreds if not thousands.


A neighbor went and had the same test done. I think about doing it (no history of heart disease in my family, but I am ~25 lbs overweight), but am truthfully a bit nervous to find out the results...

NobodyHere 07-06-2021 05:01 PM

White House Issues Threat to Russia Over Hacking

Hopefully there's a concrete plan being made and not just another warning letter of what you can and can not attack.

JPhillips 07-06-2021 05:57 PM

That's a bullshit way to describe what happened. The list was a way to communicate what things would be thought of as critical and could lead to war. Not everything can be equally important, we aren't going to war if the 7-11 slushie machines are hacked.

NobodyHere 07-06-2021 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3338955)
That's a bullshit way to describe what happened. The list was a way to communicate what things would be thought of as critical and could lead to war. Not everything can be equally important, we aren't going to war if the 7-11 slushie machines are hacked.


Why should any attack be tolerated? There's also the fact that hackers have attacked industries on the "off-limit" list.

Ghost Econ 07-06-2021 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3338955)
That's a bullshit way to describe what happened. The list was a way to communicate what things would be thought of as critical and could lead to war. Not everything can be equally important, we aren't going to war if the 7-11 slushie machines are hacked.


Don't tell that to my child.

JPhillips 07-06-2021 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3338956)
Why should any attack be tolerated? There's also the fact that hackers have attacked industries on the "off-limit" list.


We aren't tolerating anything. We did the same thing during the cold war, letting the Soviets know what things would lead to a war is intended to make it less likely to end up in a war. Now if the current Russian government wants to keep pushing, we'll respond bit by bit and hopefully, it doesn't get out of control.

Personally, I think we need to be more aggressive pushing back, but not everything is worthy of an all-out assault that may lead to war.

Brian Swartz 07-07-2021 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan
https://news.gallup.com/poll/193595/...ent-power.aspx


That is not remotely close to what I was referring to. It's difficult for me to believe that you really think it is. There is a massive, massive gap here that for whatever reason it seems you are ignoring. On the one hand, we have a gallup question about general theory of government state vs. federal power. On the other hand we have how you yourself described the issue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan
States just do whateverthefuck they want every state is different and yes, individual cartels, and warlords end up controlling certain areas with the blessing of the state and yes, that would happen here.


This describes a situation where the federal government has no power at all, and is what I have been repeatedly referring to. I've offered specific example proposals on both sides, and have heard only generalities. I'm not sure how to break through this wall and make the discussion more productive, but when you say you aren't being absolutist and then tell me I'm being willfully ignorant and your initial statements railed against 'states have all the rights and authority' - I didn't put the word all in there, it's in the original post - I'm left wondering where the line is you are trying to draw here. My point was and is that there are specific areas where Americans consistently want the federal government to retain power and/or increase it. Just because some don't want them in charge of some areas does not mean there is a significant or effective movement to remove federal authority to the degree that it is no longer in charge of those key areas. That point has gone unaddressed so far as I can tell in favor of (paraphrasing, but accurately) 'those who want more state power want the Mexico system'. How am I supposed to react to that kind of statement without considering it to be absolutist?

Regarding ignorance, one metric is the amount of the economy the fed consumes. While defense spending has proportionally declined, the overall chunk - even in non-pandemic times - has had a flat trend for 35 years. At no point, up to and including the present, in modern American history has it significantly declined without jumping back up within about a decade. So I can only ask, where are the specific proposals that are being put into place to take control of taxation away from the federal government? To take control of the military away? To give state governors/legislatures greater power than the president/Congress? What states are ripping up Treasury-issued currency and replacing it with their own, or successfully declaring that they aren't going to abide by federal mandates and will supercede with their own version of the EPA, OSHA, their own independent intelligence agency, whatever? We aren't in 'all or nothing' territory here, we're in 'what way at all are states acting like this?'

Brian Swartz 07-07-2021 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere
Why should any attack be tolerated?


What's the alternative? What specific actions should we take in the event of the proverbial 'minor' cyberattack?

PilotMan 07-07-2021 09:16 AM

Geezus Brian...if you can't find the conversation I am trying to have while muddying up the whole thing with the one you want to have, that's on you.

Vegas Vic 07-07-2021 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3338916)
Within 20 minutes of the US's departure on Friday night the electricity was shut down and the base was plunged into darkness, the AP reported - a signal to looters who smashed through barriers and ransacked the abandoned buildings.

Twenty. Minutes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57682290


After the Taliban takes back the country in a few months, the biggest losers will be the Afghan women. Many have risen to prominent positions in society and leadership. Young Afghan women have prospered with the opportunities afforded by a good education. Soon, they'll go back to being minimized, brutalized and raped.

NobodyHere 07-07-2021 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3339007)
What's the alternative? What specific actions should we take in the event of the proverbial 'minor' cyberattack?


What do you consider a 'minor cyberattack'?

But let's face it. Over a thousand companies and government agencies have been attacked with ransomware and that number is rapidly growing. This is costing companies billions of dollars.

We should be embargoing any country that is tolerating ransomware users and sanctioning their officials. We should be getting extradition treaties.

Heck we're putting treaty together that would set a minimum tax on corporations. Surely we could put one together to go after ransomware attackers?

Brian Swartz 07-07-2021 05:14 PM

In the case of Russia, they either wouldn't sign the treaty or if they did sign it they wouldn't honor it. Heck they aren't even admitting what they're doing now, with no treaty. If we embargo every country that does that, the damage to our economy, never mind the world's economy, will be far worse then the impact of the current problem.

Treaties only work in a situation where all sides own up to what their actual actions are.

cuervo72 07-07-2021 07:05 PM

Probably should have made the Afghan army out of women, they'd actually have something to fight for and might not cheerily give up their arms.

albionmoonlight 07-08-2021 08:34 AM

Dems wanted to help pay for infrastructure with new taxes. GOP said no way. OK. That's compromise. So they settled on the extraordinarily modest proposal of simply making it easier to collect taxes that are currently being avoided. No new taxes. Just make it harder for criminals to steal from the government.

And, of course, "conservatives" are now rallying against that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...conservatives/

So, for those keeping score at home, conservatives are now advocating for bigger deficits and defunding law enforcement.

But no one keeps score anymore, so LOL nothing matters.

RainMaker 07-08-2021 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3339016)
This is costing companies billions of dollars.


Poor cybersecurity is what is costing them billions of dollars. These "hacks" are not as sophisticated as they are made out to be. Often times they are incredibly dumb mistakes by companies who have thoroughly neglected spending in cybersecurity.

It's a weird spot when the companies that have done nothing but push for no government regulation want the government to bail them out for their poor decisions.

NobodyHere 07-08-2021 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3339110)
Poor cybersecurity is what is costing them billions of dollars. These "hacks" are not as sophisticated as they are made out to be. Often times they are incredibly dumb mistakes by companies who have thoroughly neglected spending in cybersecurity.

It's a weird spot when the companies that have done nothing but push for no government regulation want the government to bail them out for their poor decisions.


Blame the victim right?

Kodos 07-08-2021 01:46 PM

There are situations where victims did nothing to bring on their victimhood. Neglecting basic cybersecurity is not one of those situations.

Brian Swartz 07-08-2021 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight
So, for those keeping score at home, conservatives are now advocating for bigger deficits and defunding law enforcement.


I find it interesting that this is the take, and not also 'so now liberals are for boosting the budget of law enforcement instead of defunding them'.

RainMaker 07-08-2021 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3339121)
Blame the victim right?


They aren't really a victim. They made a business decision.

NobodyHere 07-08-2021 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3339138)
They aren't really a victim. They made a business decision.


I guess they dressed too provoctively right?

RainMaker 07-08-2021 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3339140)
I guess they dressed too provoctively right?


What does a business decision have to do with a violent crime?

They determined the risk of a breach was not worth the added cost of security. Since companies face no consequences for this and get bailed out by the government, that business decision is usually correct.

The only victims here are taxpayers.

NobodyHere 07-08-2021 08:14 PM

So in your world if the someone gets robbed it's the robbed fault, got it.

BYU 14 07-08-2021 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3339153)
So in your world if the someone gets robbed it's the robbed fault, got it.


I guess my take would be yes and no. First off nobody deserves to be extorted or robbed, but like the homeowner that goes on a trip and leaves their door unlocked, they could have taken more precautions and they need to look in the mirror for that.

But nobody deserves this and it baffles me that some responses are so flippant because it is big business. Blame for crime lies solely on the criminal, despite what precautions could have been taken to lessen the chances of being a victim, they are still victims and they learned a hard lesson for not taking security more seriously.

Atocep 07-08-2021 10:29 PM

The government should put pressure on Russia to protect these businesses.

Businesses need to invest more into network security.

Businesses that ignore network security and put their customers or critical infrastructure at risk repeatedly or to the point that it requires federal aid/intervention should be fined.

BYU 14 07-09-2021 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3339163)
The government should put pressure on Russia to protect these businesses.

Businesses need to invest more into network security.

Businesses that ignore network security and put their customers or critical infrastructure at risk repeatedly or to the point that it requires federal aid/intervention should be fined.


This is the best incentive

I. J. Reilly 07-09-2021 09:36 AM

I’m so lost as to where we are on the political spectrum these days. I still expect conservatives to bitch about the moral hazard of the federal government to stepping in to right every wrong, to preach rugged individualism and if you don’t protect yourself then tough shit.

tarcone 07-09-2021 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly (Post 3339196)
I’m so lost as to where we are on the political spectrum these days. I still expect conservatives to bitch about the moral hazard of the federal government to stepping in to right every wrong, to preach rugged individualism and if you don’t protect yourself then tough shit.


This is interesting to me and what I feel like is the problem. We are all over the spectrum. A country this large and diverse makes for a stagnant political system. What does a dude living in the mountains of Colorado have in common with a women living in NYC? Not much. And I imagine their opinions differ vastly. And therein lies where we are right now. Shoot, look at this board and how we are are all over the spectrum.
IMO, we are all over the spectrum and will be until something radical happens.

BYU 14 07-09-2021 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarcone (Post 3339198)
This is interesting to me and what I feel like is the problem. We are all over the spectrum. A country this large and diverse makes for a stagnant political system. What does a dude living in the mountains of Colorado have in common with a women living in NYC? Not much. And I imagine their opinions differ vastly. And therein lies where we are right now. Shoot, look at this board and how we are are all over the spectrum.
IMO, we are all over the spectrum and will be until something radical happens.


That is not really a problem to me as it has always been the case, we are just more openly contentious then I can ever remember in my lifetime. Respect for one another and the ability to listen, which leads to a broader perspective have just evaporated over the last decade.

JPhillips 07-09-2021 11:53 AM

The political system only appears stagnant because of the various ways in which minority rule has been exploited. We wouldn't appear to be so gridlocked if the majority were able and willing to enact an agenda.

Lathum 07-09-2021 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU 14 (Post 3339200)
That is not really a problem to me as it has always been the case, we are just more openly contentious then I can ever remember in my lifetime. Respect for one another and the ability to listen, which leads to a broader perspective have just evaporated over the last decade.


I blame Fox News.

RainMaker 07-09-2021 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3339153)
So in your world if the someone gets robbed it's the robbed fault, got it.


They didn't get robbed.

And yeah, if I leave my TV at the end of the driveway tonight, it's probably my fault it got stolen. Sure the person who stole it is in the wrong, but there needs to be a little personal responsibility too.

RainMaker 07-09-2021 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU 14 (Post 3339162)
But nobody deserves this and it baffles me that some responses are so flippant because it is big business. Blame for crime lies solely on the criminal, despite what precautions could have been taken to lessen the chances of being a victim, they are still victims and they learned a hard lesson for not taking security more seriously.


There is no lesson learned here though. The US government poured millions into helping them recover their money, compensated those hurt by it, and then let it be. Colonial will continue to make hundreds of millions in profits and pay next to no taxes.

To simplify this into a simple thief and victim is ridiculous. These criminals are in foreign countries of which we have no jurisdiction. Heck, it might be completely legal for them to do what they do in their country. So in the end, it's taxpayers who now have to foot the bill for increased defense spending and whatever financial ramifications sanctions bring because a billion dollar company chose not to take cybersecurity serious.

And yes, them being a big business makes it different. They received a disproportionate amount of law enforcement resources to fix this. If my business gets hacked and I am put in a dire position, the FBI won't even take my call, let alone send out an army of agents to fix and recover my money.

It's about a bullshit system where billion-dollar companies fight to not be regulated, then get the full backing of the US government when they need it. Biden and other leaders can talk a big game, sanction countries, but nothing changes as long as there are no consequences involved for those who make poor business decisions.

Ghost Econ 07-09-2021 07:47 PM

Shit, they found us out


Atocep 07-09-2021 07:57 PM

Jokes on them, I don't have any of either. Fuck you commie bastards!

RainMaker 07-09-2021 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly (Post 3339196)
I’m so lost as to where we are on the political spectrum these days. I still expect conservatives to bitch about the moral hazard of the federal government to stepping in to right every wrong, to preach rugged individualism and if you don’t protect yourself then tough shit.


Conservatives don't believe in any of that stuff anymore.

BYU 14 07-09-2021 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ (Post 3339213)
Shit, they found us out



What a fucking idiot, but not at the level of people that actually believe his tripe.

GrantDawg 07-10-2021 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3339242)
Conservatives don't believe in any of that stuff anymore.

Most conservative politicians that claimed they did never really did. Time and time again they proved that they want a federal government that protected the wealthy class, but expected "rugged individualism" for the poor. It was and always has been a con.

NobodyHere 07-10-2021 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3339205)
There is no lesson learned here though. The US government poured millions into helping them recover their money, compensated those hurt by it, and then let it be. Colonial will continue to make hundreds of millions in profits and pay next to no taxes.

To simplify this into a simple thief and victim is ridiculous. These criminals are in foreign countries of which we have no jurisdiction. Heck, it might be completely legal for them to do what they do in their country. So in the end, it's taxpayers who now have to foot the bill for increased defense spending and whatever financial ramifications sanctions bring because a billion dollar company chose not to take cybersecurity serious.

And yes, them being a big business makes it different. They received a disproportionate amount of law enforcement resources to fix this. If my business gets hacked and I am put in a dire position, the FBI won't even take my call, let alone send out an army of agents to fix and recover my money.

It's about a bullshit system where billion-dollar companies fight to not be regulated, then get the full backing of the US government when they need it. Biden and other leaders can talk a big game, sanction countries, but nothing changes as long as there are no consequences involved for those who make poor business decisions.


You act like that only billion dollar companies with no cyber security are getting hit from ransomware.

Over thousand entities in the US have been hit from the city of Baltimore to one of the main suppliers to the company I work for. I know my supplier had all the cyber security one could expect from a company that size. This isn't simply a game that can be won by playing defense all the time. Unless you go after the bad actors then you're just giving them all the time in the world to crack your defenses.

Also you state that this just affects taxpayers. Tell that to my company's supplier. Tell that to the workers my company had to cut hours for. Tell that to the contractors my companies supply. Tell that to those contractor's customers. Tell that to companies that are now spending more money to beef up their cyber security instead of putting that money into their products or their employees.

Biden supposedly got an agreement from Putin to crack down on these crooks. Let's hop Putin cracks down as hard on these guys as he does his political opponents.

Edward64 07-11-2021 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3339318)
This isn't simply a game that can be won by playing defense all the time. Unless you go after the bad actors then you're just giving them all the time in the world to crack your defenses.


I agree. There is no doubt US companies can do better but these are attacks and will only get worse without a strategic, coordinated response. The real question does the US have a "plan"?

I hope so but don't think so. But it's a start.

Edward64 07-11-2021 06:46 PM

Good to read this. I think a nice, temporary bump as we emerge from the depths of Covid but not going to complain.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/11/polit...sis/index.html
Quote:

A new Gallup poll finds that 59.2% of Americans say they're thriving. Additionally, 73% of Americans said they experienced enjoyment for a lot of the previous day.

The former is the highest rating Gallup has ever recorded on the measure dating back to when it was first taken more than 13 years ago. The latter is the highest since the coronavirus pandemic began early last year.

Edward64 07-11-2021 07:53 PM

Interim PM vs designated PM. Head of Supreme Court dead of Covid. Assassins caught but not the mastermind.

Read that Haiti asked for US troops to help guard some areas and we said no. Probably the right call, the UN is who should step in. She is in our sphere of influence and, if we choose to, probably can help significantly with long-term military presence ... but one of those cases of not much to gain, better to give money (and/or contribute some troops) to UN to do it.

Now if Haiti had significant oil or precious metals, different story.


Re: Puerto Rico. They voted for statehood 52-47 and about 55% voted late last year. The nos. don't seem to show an overwhelming PR support for it. Couple bills but from what I've read, Biden isn't a supporter (not sure why).

kingfc22 07-11-2021 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3339393)
…but from what I've read, Biden isn't a supporter (not sure why).


Because Democrats suck at politics. Even more so when they are in the majority. If the shoe was on the other foot and PR was a blood red state opportunity, McConnell would get it done.

Vegas Vic 07-11-2021 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 3339394)
Because Democrats suck at politics. Even more so when they are in the majority.


I don't know if you have a short memory, but that was certainly not the case with the last Democrat administration. With control of the White House, Senate and House of Representatives from 2009 to 2011, they passed every important piece of legislation that was important to them, including universal healthcare, regulatory reform, trillion dollar stimulus plan, bailout of two auto makers, just to name a few.

RainMaker 07-12-2021 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3339318)
You act like that only billion dollar companies with no cyber security are getting hit from ransomware.

Over thousand entities in the US have been hit from the city of Baltimore to one of the main suppliers to the company I work for. I know my supplier had all the cyber security one could expect from a company that size. This isn't simply a game that can be won by playing defense all the time. Unless you go after the bad actors then you're just giving them all the time in the world to crack your defenses.

Also you state that this just affects taxpayers. Tell that to my company's supplier. Tell that to the workers my company had to cut hours for. Tell that to the contractors my companies supply. Tell that to those contractor's customers. Tell that to companies that are now spending more money to beef up their cyber security instead of putting that money into their products or their employees.

Biden supposedly got an agreement from Putin to crack down on these crooks. Let's hop Putin cracks down as hard on these guys as he does his political opponents.



The difference is the billion dollar company got the full force of the US government and your supplier was likely told "lol we don't have time for you". Your supplier and customers also didn't get a massive bailout for their issue.

It is unfortunate that the supplier made bad business decisions that cost people money and their jobs.

Edward64 07-12-2021 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3339396)
I don't know if you have a short memory, but that was certainly not the case with the last Democrat administration. With control of the White House, Senate and House of Representatives from 2009 to 2011, they passed every important piece of legislation that was important to them, including universal healthcare, regulatory reform, trillion dollar stimulus plan, bailout of two auto makers, just to name a few.


Didn't try very hard at immigration reform back then which was a Obama platform. A little more time to play out, but looks to be the same with Biden & Kamala.

But yeah, I'm with you. The Dems get their wins also.

Edward64 07-12-2021 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 3339394)
Because Democrats suck at politics. Even more so when they are in the majority. If the shoe was on the other foot and PR was a blood red state opportunity, McConnell would get it done.


No idea of the real scale, degree of the Cuban protests. Probably much to do about nothing much.

But another opportunity for Biden to move the dial on FL shifting to a blue state. Unlike Haiti, Cuba does have world class cigars, boxers and baseball players!

Vegas Vic 07-12-2021 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3339447)
But yeah, I'm with you. The Dems get their wins also.


I'm not so sure about that with this current administration.

Although I disagreed with much of President Obama’s policy positions, I admired his tenacity and enthusiasm. His Vice President was a pretty sharp guy (back then) who was able to navigate the tricky corridors of Washington politics admirably.

That’s a stark contrast to the current administration. As time passes, President Biden appears to have more difficulty responding to basic questions without blanking out in midsentence or referring to his note cards. As for Vice President Harris, there’s a reason she maxed out at 2% support in the Democratic primaries, eventually dropping out while in eighth place.

It’s not going to be served up on a silver platter in 2024 for them like it was in 2020. Instead of going up against some incoherent raging megalomaniac, they’re going to be up against an articulate, calculating even tempered opponent like Ron DeSantis. I’d say they’ve got their work cut out for them.

JPhillips 07-13-2021 08:27 AM

The chief of vaccines for the TN Department of Health was fired and she claims it was because she was instructed to stop promoting all vaccines. The GOP is quickly becoming an anti-vax party.

Lathum 07-13-2021 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3339450)
I'm not so sure about that with this current administration.

Although I disagreed with much of President Obama’s policy positions, I admired his tenacity and enthusiasm. His Vice President was a pretty sharp guy (back then) who was able to navigate the tricky corridors of Washington politics admirably.

That’s a stark contrast to the current administration. As time passes, President Biden appears to have more difficulty responding to basic questions without blanking out in midsentence or referring to his note cards. As for Vice President Harris, there’s a reason she maxed out at 2% support in the Democratic primaries, eventually dropping out while in eighth place.

It’s not going to be served up on a silver platter in 2024 for them like it was in 2020. Instead of going up against some incoherent raging megalomaniac, they’re going to be up against an articulate, calculating even tempered opponent like Ron DeSantis. I’d say they’ve got their work cut out for them.


It really will be fascinating. Biden was always going to be a one term president. The Dems problem is they really don't have anyone to rally the base like an Obama. Right now who would their candidate be? Warren? Mayor Pete? Booker? Stacy Abrams?

On the flip side, if Trump does win the nomination does that motivate people to vote for whomever the Dems roll out there? If Trump doesn't win the nomination does the right lose a ton of voters beholden to the Trump cult?

BYU 14 07-13-2021 09:41 AM

It really brings up a good point, who is the best Dem candidate for 2024? I have always liked Andrew Yang, but he got smashed running for NYC mayor.

Is there anyone under the radar now that can rise up and wow voters?

Vegas Vic 07-13-2021 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3339474)
If Trump doesn't win the nomination does the right lose a ton of voters beholden to the Trump cult?


It will probably never come to fruition, but my hope is that the MAGA cultists, Tea Partiers, theocrats and other right wing extremists will break off and form their own party.

molson 07-13-2021 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3339473)
The GOP is quickly becoming an anti-vax party.


I wonder if Pfizer or somebody could come up with a vaccine nullification shot for Republicans like Trump who got vaccinated. So they can be born again.

Lathum 07-13-2021 01:16 PM

It just blows my mind, maybe someone said it earlier, but they want to make sure trump gets all the credit for a vaccine they won't take for a virus they claim doesn't exist.

thesloppy 07-13-2021 01:26 PM

I'm just happy to learn we've got universal healthcare.

Ksyrup 07-13-2021 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 3339488)
It will probably never come to fruition, but my hope is that the MAGA cultists, Tea Partiers, theocrats and other right wing extremists will break off and form their own party.


Why would they want or need to? The secret sauce here is that they get the best of both worlds - they get to control the messaging/agenda AND they get more votes than they otherwise would without the GOP affiliation. People like my brother who are not racists, don't believe the conspiracies, but are politically motivated to vote by a purely financial agenda, or maybe it's guns, or abortion, etc.

This country largely views politics as a binary choice, and increasingly believes that the other side is hell-bent on destroying the country. So party affiliation is all that matters, even to the point where you are willing to accept shit like insurrections, lying, etc., because the worst thing that could happen is the other side wins.

kingfc22 07-13-2021 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesloppy (Post 3339500)
I'm just happy to learn we've got universal healthcare.


LOL

Ben E Lou 07-13-2021 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 3339502)
…because the worst thing that could happen is the other side wins.

Boiled down to its essence, this is what’s wrong with this country, and why politics/politicians will never fix it.

GrantDawg 07-13-2021 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3339505)
Boiled down to its essence, this is what’s wrong with this country, and why politics/politicians will never fix it.

Yup. I just don't see a fix coming around the corner either. One side is full radicalized, and the other eventually will be.

GrantDawg 07-13-2021 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3339473)
The chief of vaccines for the TN Department of Health was fired and she claims it was because she was instructed to stop promoting all vaccines. The GOP is quickly becoming an anti-vax party.

Yup. Full anti-vacc. Not just Covid-19.

JPhillips 07-13-2021 03:07 PM

My brother in Ohio was telling me that the GOP was trying to pass a law making it illegal for public or private groups to require any vaccinations. Among other things, it would prohibit schools from requiring any vaccinations.

Lathum 07-13-2021 03:12 PM

Make Polio Great Again seems like an odd campaign slogan.

Ghost Econ 07-13-2021 03:14 PM

Diseases are part of God's plan. Who are we to go against God's will?

henry296 07-13-2021 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3339498)
It just blows my mind, maybe someone said it earlier, but they want to make sure trump gets all the credit for a vaccine they won't take for a virus they claim doesn't exist.


Trumps gets credit for creating a vaccine that the liberals are taking that gave us our freedom back.

JPhillips 07-13-2021 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ (Post 3339510)
Diseases are part of God's plan. Who are we to go against God's will?


Did you see the guy on OAN or Newsmax that was making the argument that vaccines mess with nature and some people should die from viruses?

Edward64 07-14-2021 06:27 AM

Senate Dems agree on $3.5T "human infrastructure & medicare". Not a lot of details right now. Bernie is onboard but Manchin wants to know how this will be paid for. If Dems align, then push it through reconciliation.

It's a given that if Biden wants bipartisanship, the $3.5T will be reduced to a more palatable $. So another major challenge for him coming up but do hope we get bipartisanship here.

Senate Democrats reach $3.5 trillion deal on reconciliation package

Hope the medicare part includes lowering the age of eligibility to 60 (or lower!).

miked 07-14-2021 07:20 AM

What bipartisanship? McConnell already said he would not consider a supreme court nominee in the final year again. They say they want bipartisanship but refuse to compromise. He gets re-elected by not compromising.

Ksyrup 07-14-2021 08:28 AM

He gets re-elected by being a white male republican in Kentucky who holds a far greater position of prominence nationally than anyone in Kentucky could otherwise hope for.


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