I completely agree. I wonder if Matrix is going to give refunds to those who ask for one.

It's just amazing. I was just looking through the threads and keep seeing similar responses that they have seen it before. If it was something minor (like the play by play displaying the information wrong), I could live with that, but when you are talking about things that can make or break any game, that just bothers me.

I do give Matrix (Erik & Paul) credit for trying to stay on top of the release, though. They have been answering questions well past midnight on their forums.

I'm not trying to make fun of the game here but where did these names come from? I mean one or two Hongistos or Eckenfels, ok but the whole scoresheet? What ever happened to Johnson or Smith?

Of course there are plenty of other games that have the same name problems but damn all those in one place really threw me :D

EFTHIMIOU hands off to HONGISTO, who pitches it back to NEUDECK, who is throwing it back across the field to WIOHWOIHWPOJOPJ!

TOUCHDOWN!!!!!

dola, my next IHOF rookie will absolutely be renamed Efthimiou Hongisto.

I knew a guy that worked for Cray Computers. He was an analyst of some kind and did some programing at home where he made a random letter generator. I told him there wouldn't be market for his little program, little did I know. :)

:D

Cheers for coming here and posting Erik.

I second that.


:rolleyes:

I'd love to see that. :D

please, PLEASE, PLEASE keep posting here.

Even though this thread has taken a turn for the more serious, you really add a lot. It's just not as much fun if we're all skeptics, we desperately need the true believers to remain true.

Erik -- it's really great to see you posting here. I hope you ultimately make the same decision that other developers and distriubutors have... that this community includes quite a lot of potential customers for a product like this, and despite our attempts at humor, we pretty much all do root for this (broadly defined) genre of software. There are a *lot* of us here who are very open to paying for a game like this if it shows promise. Your attitude, both over at the Matrix forums and in your posts here thus far, have been a very encouraging effort in that regard.

Whether you stick around here and help out those who have comments or concerns posted here is your call -- but I am really glad to see you avoid the (certain) temptation to simply write off the community completely.

MIJB#19

Well, this game always was about the mod community and what it would do with it. Not being a programmer, why wouldn't I wait for those more technically knowledgable to get this thing up and running before I got it? Erik says pretty much the same thing, and I think many also hold this view.

BTW, shouldn't you be busy, you know, sniffing tulips or something? :)

JEEBS! Now your name is in a game! I almost missed it, but then I remember Winter can't spel fer shit!

just like doc, I completely agree with this assessment. I mean, $40 seems like a high price tag for the indie software scene. That the game has bugs/isssues is one thing but that they know about it and keep it on a readme.txt file inside the zip file of the game and tell you about it once you've paid for the darn thing, well, that just reeks of crookery, unless they give refund to people who ask for one, then it's pure bad form...

FM

Hey Eaglesfan27 or anyone else that has the game, I have a question for you guys... Is the AI always playing the 3-4 against you without fail? I'm curious if it's actually picking something other than 2 or 3 plays based on the 3-4.. So far all 4 games I've played have been against the 3-4 exclusively and it appears that they run the same 3 plays from the basic 3-4 playset all game...

I'd like to echo Quik's thoughts regarding Erik as well. Welcome, great to see you here and I too hope that you don't write the community off.

Having said that, I too am a bit surprised at the state the game is in. There are quite a few indications, even at this early state, that the game simply isn't finished, and more over, that Matrix and David knew this.

Stating that there are bugs before you release a game is one thing, but when features of the game don't seem to be working (is it really true that stat tracking for leagues doesn't work, and many long passes are nearly unstoppable with the default playbooks?), the situation goes beyond "bugs". Those are situations that the customer should know about before buying the game.

In such cases, it seems to me that the words "you can customize it" are being used as a euphemism for "you can fix it", but even that isn't true given the game's current state.

Again, it's a bit early to jump to conclusions. Most of the reports are from only a couple of people and it would be helpful to see more people reporting the same problems, but I am surprised by some of the early reports. The good thing behind all this is that there does seem to be a good game concept in Maximum Football. Just needs more a lot more work to get it all right.

Rouge (french for red) is spelled correctly. You used to subtract the point so, if you had zero points, you went into the red..

This is an awesome feature that, I think, should be added to the NFL. In fact, why stop at the end zone?

It's the Eagles ball from section 226 row 15, all they need is to be sacked for 18 yards to get the tying touchdown.

Dola-

Wow, that crazy offsides/face mask touchdown bug doesn't seem to be an isolated problem according to this thread > http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1077136

About 6 people reported similiar problems... including one beta tester - who's later response was 'Sounds like a problem with ... the size of the player's shoes.'

Sounds like a winner.... How the hell do you miss something that major?

So it's not really a full game, just a framework relying on users to fix and mod it, but it's still selling for the price of a full game?

?????

You're not alone, that comment practically lept off the page and slapped me in the head.

Me, too. Disappointed I can see... surprised, not at all.

And in this genre, that selling price is at the high end.

Paying $40 to be a beta tester since the first round of testing apparently failed. Just swell.

No, that is a common misconception with many game releases. The beta testing do find many more bugs and problems than officially reported. The developers/publishers are well aware of a lot of the issues but because of timing and wanting to release, many of the problems are purposely not fixed. They will be at a later date if the expenses can be justified. Because the customers see a lot of problems, it is customary to blame the testers. Believe me, they saw most (not all) of the same problems. ("They" meaning testers in general, not talking specifically about M-F.)

I don't have the game. I strongly suspected there would be a large number of bugs. However, I'm very interested in seeing how Matrix will handle this situation as it will influence my future purchases from them.


Edited to add: I've bought at least 3 games from them in the past off of the top of my head.

WOW

This game should never been release. Its not even close to being ready.

I simply cannot believe people would pay money for this game after reading even a tenth of what's been posted here (jokes aside)...not to mention those who have followed this thing closely over at their site. Sure, we want to see indie game developers succeed, but thisis a debacle. And the whole thing's apparently been chronicled on the net fo the past 5 years or so.

Call it a stupid hope that things would work out. I'll take my dunce cap and sit inthe corner. ;)

fyi,

Login	Message << Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Short list of items I'm addressing. (March 4) - 3/4/2006 5:38:51 PM David Winter Moderator Posts: 624 Joined: 11/23/2004 From: Vancouver, BC Status: online Hi. I've scanned through the support forum and have created a shot list of things to address. These will be handled in the first update. I am sorry I can no provide a date for that yet as I've not done enough analyses of the problems. These are listed, more or less, in order of importance. My goal is (and this is very much subject to outside factors) is that I get an update for the game towards the end of each week for the next few weeks. Any build I create needs to go through our internal QA first and I do not have any estimates on how long that process will last. Microsoft has their 1st Tuesday of the month schedule for Windows updates, the game's will be a little more often during it's first weeks of life. I apologize if this is going to cause inconvenience or confusion. - Crashes. Sphar V23 and a couple of others are reporting crashes with the draft and league creation. These are not something that were found during testing that I'm aware of. They sound like they're all related to the creation of a new league. yes? The various Run Time Errors (RTE) will also be looked at. I've compiled a list of those by reading the support forum. - Penalties. No need to mention who reported that because everyone seems to be This is the highest priority game play fix. - Clock. The clock not stopping on a 3rd down incomplete pass is a low risk fix. But keep in mind, as per the manual, the clock rules are not currently tied to the league you create. The clock rules are somewhat of a hybrid system right now sharing rules from the various leagues. - Database needs converting in Access 2k and higher. This is by design and won't be changed. The version of the JET database engine (the core portion of MS ACCESS) is 2.5. This was chosen specifically for its low memory footprint and ease of distribution. It's the simplest and smallest version of the engine. Game play related items (I would think most things stats related fall into this area) will be looked at but I can not say if any changes will get into the first update. - Finally. Obviously some issues cropped up we were not aware of. I would like to thank those people who are helping out getting other gamers get past these problems for their help and I hope people are finding the game fun regardless of these setbacks. Matrix and I will get them sorted out. David Winter Developer. ------------------ Report | Post #: 1

RE: Short list of items I'm addressing. (March 4) - 3/4/2006 6:44:18 PM Erik Rutins Administrator Posts: 6991 Joined: 3/28/2000 From: Vermont, USA Status: online I just wanted to add to this that we will be working with David to get the first update out as quickly as possible and will continue to expedite the update process until all priority issues have been addressed, at which point we will take stock and decide on a more normal update process. I'm sorry these issues slipped through testing. There are number of them that seem system configuration specific which we had no chance to catch and others may have been caused by the rapid changes of the last two weeks and the fact that we did not have a chance to test every possible combination. We did start new leagues during testing, but something obviously is creating a problem with that process now. While I regret these issues made it to release, we take responsibility for that and will fix them as quickly as possible. Regards, - Erik _____________________________ Erik Rutins Director of Product Development and Business Relations (in reply to David Winter) Report | Post #: 2

Page: [1]

Maybe they should have tested the combination of installing and then playing the game. That's a combination that would have yielded some accurate test results.

You know, this game would have done much better if he would have released the game as freeware when he was first developing it and then as he got closer to a much complete product, he could have moved into the shareware arena.

With the length of time it took him to create the game, he would have gotten virtually no heat if he would have gone this route since everyone would have had a chance to both try out his game as well as help him develop it.

As it stands right now, since there is no demo, I can only go by what others are saying and sadly word of mouth is going to hurt sales for this game. I think the smart thing that Matrix did was call this a Football Construction Kit.

Matrix is partially to blame for this, because they annonced the game had "gone gold" and instantly put the pressure on that they had to release it soon. Unfortunately the bugs are not minor things that can be tweaked and I hope this doesn't put a dent in their image.

Known Issues...
 

I wanted to comment quickly on one perception. We thought the game had no severe issues when we shipped. I had not seen that facemask penalty bug nor seen it reported. We knew there were some minor penalty issues, but with so many reports of that, it must have slipped into one of the last two builds. The new league issues were also an area that had been tested within the last month, but not more recently, unfortunately. Some other issues seem system-specific or only happen on systems that are below spec or with old drivers - that type of stuff we expect.

It was impossible to re-test everything with one or two new builds a day. I regret that these things slipped through and I and the rest of the folks at Matrix take responsibility for that. We're working with David to get these resolved ASAP and we're expediting things as much as possible to get updates out there to the paying customers, weekly if need be.

For those who were wondering, here is the known issues list that we shipped with. These are all noted in the readme as being planned for resolution after release. None of these were of the type that would stop a release or should cause any major problems, given that all severe issues we knew about had been resolved.
Known Issues:

1. Dual monitors. Maximum-Football does not currently support dual monitors. To play Maximum-Football, Right-Click on your desktop and select Properties. Set your display to single display mode. Consult your graphics card manual for more specifics on how to do this.

2. Roster moves are not properly being recorded in the league news.

3. The post play summary can incorrectly report ball position. It sometimes reports that a play gained 4 yards when in fact it may have gained 5. As the post play summary is there to represent what an announcer might say it was decided that being off by one or so yards from time to time was acceptable.

4. High resolution stadium fans may not render. This is due to low video card memory. If you notice that the fans in high resolution stadiums are not being displayed, you may need to use low resolution stadiums.

5. Non North American date time formats. Maximum-Football requires your computer’s date and time format to be Canadian or American format. Date & Time formats for regions such as Germany will cause the game and utilities to crash. Go to Control Panel and Region Settings to change your date time format settings.

6. "My game statistics seem too high(or low)." Due to the wide range of game styles Maximum-Football needs to support, it is possible that the game result statistics may seem either too high or too low for your favourite game play style. Adjusting your leagues player Skill Attributes normally compensates for this. Creating new offensive or defensive plays that better suit your play style may also help.

7. There are some issues with the penalty system that occasionally cause it to give improper penalty distances for different rules combinations.

I sort of agree with this but at what point do you release the game just so you can get the shitstorm over with. Kind of like Dreamcatcher holding the latest gold master of Battlecruiser in their hands.

Yikes. That's not good at all.

This is all going to end badly.

going to?

More like..

has, and we knew it would

I don't think it has ended yet.

I can see Over-time was thoroughly tested....

So far i've counted at least 3 issues that make this game unplayable and three or four more which make it not worth purchesing.

Well done, Daivd.

I can't believe this guy has disillusioned enough to continue development on this highly flawed game for FIVE YEARS. There's no way that any reasonable person could be playing the game and testing it and saying "this is great. I'm making good progress. I should release this to the public; i'll make a lot of money."

EDIT: Wow.. here are a few real good ones:

I thought the game would be weak, but I thought Matrix's influence would have kind of gotten it to a state that it would limp along, somewhat functionally. I didn't think they would release something where so many features simply aren't working. In that regard, I'm surprised that the game seems completely unfinished and untested.

The bugs I expected, but things I've heard that just stun me:
1. A 76-0 game at the half, using default rosters and playbooks?
2. League stats that don't work at all?
3. At the end of each season there is a 40-60 round draft and you have to manually pare your team down? Every year? Somehow this doesn't greatly impact the quality of players on the team?
4. "Long pass" is a money play?

So in that regard, yes, I am surprised that the game is in the state it's in.

You know, for what it's worth, I've been nothing but impressed with Erik's dedication to helping fix things. I'm certainly not about to buy the game, but if they can ignore the constant (and possibly deserved) mudslinging and keep improving the game, at some point it might even be playable.

Hmm... That date will probably be somewhere around 2010 at the rate that they're "developing" this game. To releasea piece of software at this quality and expect people to pay $40 for it off the bat is insanity. Especially with no demo.

From this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1077565

Best. Post. Ever.

LOL true classic

Just got through reading some of the comments on the Matrix board and catching up in this thread. Looks like the game's as bad as we all feared, despite a couple of the diehard fans trying to grasp at straws. I'm sure with a few patches, they will get the game to function without the RTEs and crashes but I think the AI and some of the other gameplay issues is pretty much there to stay. I'm definitely not surprised by the state of the game, but I'm a little disappointed that we weren't proven wrong because I'd much rather have another football game than to have been right.

You know, I think we bear some of the responsibility for the state of the game. I mean, we've been hammering Matrix and WinterValley for a long time, especially hard the last few weeks. Do you think they finally got fed up with the negative publicity and decided, "Fuck it, release the game and we'll deal with the bugs later."

And can you blame them? Realistically, theres no way that team of testers was going to uncover all of the bugs at the rate they've been going, so they were in for a world of hurt as far as bugs go no mater how many more times they backed off a release date. At least this way they were able to silence some of their critics, the "Vaporware" crowd.

Well put and I agree 100%.

I don't.

Sorry Toddzilla, but if it weren't for the absurd spectacle of releasing a game that's in such sorry shape, your comment might vie for the title of "Most Absurd Thing I've Seen This Week". Alas, the competition is simply too stiff this week for your post to be a contender.


You mean hard-to-find bugs like, oh ... plays starting IN the end zone?
C'mon, get real. That's one of the funniest bugs I can recall seeing in any sports game.


Given the sorry state of affairs at release, I'd say Matrix would have fared better if this HAD been vaporware. At this point, I believe they should be worried about how much damage the actual release will do to their reputation overall.

Albeit on a smaller scale (in terms of distribution), it looks to me as though Matrix has gotten themselves involved with a game that is to sports games what Zero Wing was to language translation.

If, after half a decade of programming, they let the thoughts of a few dczen people affect the release of this game, then they are more idiotic than previously thought possible.

I agree with this 100%. There are a number of people who have purchased their other games and they have built up a good track record thus far. This may damage their reputation (only time can tell).

And David had already done enough to give himself bad publicity.

I completely disagree. I don't think we have that much power. They were under their own internal pressure of having delayed the deadline ad nauseum.

I agree with several other posters that I find Erik's posts classy. However, I would really like to know if Matrix is going to have any kind of refund policy for those people who feel they were cheated.

So many great quotes, it's hard to pick which one to quote. I like the 'this thing is going to be huge when it hits.'

Pure hilarity

Matrix should just pull the plug. Refund any money to anyone who asks. Delete any mention of the game from it's website. Let Winter sell it on his own (I can only imagine he wouldn't even try). Pretend it never existed and hope everyone forgets.

Just wanted to comment on this... I don't know if I feel cheated... I had an idea of what I was getting myself into having followed MF for a few months and read up on it's illustrious (read: long) history. I have purchased other Matrix Games before through stores (Highway to the Reich, whatever iteration of the old "Bombing the Reich" game they decide to release) and have been happy with what I've gotten, but in this case I was rather frustrated not only with the product I paid for, but with my lack of judgment... I don't feel cheated cuz I dove head first into this one knowing there was rocks under the water. The game definitely needs another few months to develop and get polished (with one of those heavy duty industrial sanders) but Matrix isn't to blame for me buying it... I'm a marketing student and I know that all I need is a little push and some nice screenshots to get myself going about a game that is in an area that interests me. They did their job as business people and I did mine as an irrational consumer. I'll get over it, and the game will improve. I have no skill editing code or doing uniforms or making plays or anything, so I'm kinda stuck here waiting for someone else to do it all. If I could help, I would, but unfortunately I'm stuck trying to pay off my student loans while pretending to be an amazing Football coach in the NFL... Does Matrix owe me any money? Nope... cuz I was the idiot who bought it at full price :P I knew what I was getting into so I can't seem to rile myself up as much as some other people...

Erik, I'd like to chime in as well and say welcome to the community. Although we have more than a few slightly rabid members, I have to second the comments by several that if you have the, erm, forthrightness(?) to stick with it, you might find this a valuable community for your company's products.

That said, a few thoughts. You mentioned getting one or two builds a day right up til release...it *sounds* like the whole organization was in a "let's just get something stable enough to ship, we'll fix everything else with patches" mode. Given the long delays in getting the product out the door, this is certainly understandable, although probably the wrong thing to do. I know none of the organizations I've ever worked for would dream of releasing a major version, much less a 1.0, without a full test-cycle on the release candidate.

My suspicion, which I'm sure you can't do anything other than deny publicly, is in the last few days the whole feeling at Matrix has been one of regret for ever getting involved with this product in the first place. Someone in the business end (sorry if it's you) needs to be slapped upside the head for not putting in an escape clause in the deal with Wintervalley. And if you did have an escape clause and didn't exercise it, well, never mind then...

I'd have to agree with the sentiment that the worst part of this is the massive black eye Matrix has given themselves. My general feeling based on several purchases was that Matrix games were solid - now, it's hmm... "questionable"?

Here's hoping you can get Maximum patched into better shape!

Bubba is a one-stop source for QOTM material every time he posts :)

I sure hope he's never ever banned, because his presence is NEEDED in this community.

I think Matrix should be held responsible, not just "Wintervalley" or whatever. It was their beta testers, not his I believe. Some of these issues are so basic (penalties inside the 5, overtime stuff, punt yardage, stupid plays) that I wonder if they beta tested it thoroughly at all...

The best part is that he'll throw his weight around in polictical threads. The guy doesn't even have the ability to see that Maximum Football was going to be one of the all-time busts. We are supposed to believe he has the ability to critically think well enough to contribute to a political discussion?

This quote cracked me up more than any other. The man who started this thread and defended it decides that he will not purchase it. Surprised?

Sorry dude, all I ever see now when I see your name is Babboonheart calling you "Ant Mister" and I just lose it laughing....

What I find funny about this is that my particular political leanings allow one to think for themselves, complete with making personal mistakes (like investing your own social security retirement funds.)

You on the other hand obviously subscribe to the school of thought that you should 'be thought for' by big brother, your loving 'nanny-state' and then you attack me for my 'critical thinking" skills? Unbelievable.

Trent Dilfer can't find Football Jesus, so he fires to Warrick Dunn in the flat! Oh wait, this is FBPro98, not Maximum Football. C'mon Dilfer, wake up out there, man.

More nanny-state tripe? Why not let the customers decide if they want to buy it? What a radical idea, eh comrade?

Because not every person who is going to buy the game knows they're about to be ripped off.

lol

Yes, your next great quest in life can be maybe having a government recall on single-ply toilet paper...I mean folks that might buy that stuff just have no idea what they're in for.

To me it's not a question of the game being ready.

I would analogize it to this: you have someone who is smart, creative, dedicated, and by all accounts a very good writer. He might spend years trying to write a novel. But year after year, it's clear to anyone who reads a draft that it's a bad novel and can't be published. Maybe it has some potential. So he puts another couple years into it, rewrites it, reworks the plot, adds new characters, etc. Yet even though the novel has evolved, it's still a bad novel. It doesn't mean he's an idiot or a failure; it just means that he doesn't have that special something that it takes to write a good novel. Not everyone is Leo Tolstoy.

I see the same thing with David Winter. He's obviously bright, has some programing skills, has a vision of what he wants to do, but for whatever reasons he just can't make it happen. He's been working on it for five years and we see the result: teleportation, gliding big footed zombies, first and goal inside the end zone, ridiculous off the chart stats, all the bugs, etc., etc. Just as more work is not going to turn the novelist into Leo Tolstoy, more work isn't going to make Maximum-Football a good game. Time and effort are not the problem.

That's not to say everyone will or should hate the game. Bad novels do get published and there are always some people who really like them. I'm sure some people will love Maximum-Football. More power to them.

Jeez - you guys sure can't take a joke.

Dammit, put a smiley face after that and I would have known that it was a joke. Your netiquette repulses me! :D

Winter attempted to fill a niche long neglected. Just from the views on this thread alone it appears such a product can be lucrative. Maybe some bright-bulb from a larger developement company will take the hint and do one. Maybe modders will get this game running like they did with FBPRO in the past. Jury is still very much out on this game and its potential. And I am getting the game, just letting the bugs get worked out first.

Still have to give Winter credit for doing what he has and getting this far. For his critics, well we all anxiously await your football sims. Since you are so quick to know how Winter screwed it up you should be able to get it right yourselves.

I hope Winter's game gets fixed and he goes on to great success not only on this game but on its sequel. You critics make me think of that poem 'the Arena' that Teddy Roosevelt liked. So finish your blunts and keep the mediocre quips coming. BTW, for true original humor look up some of Babboonheart's stuff on the Matrix forums. Most of you could take lessons.

I'm sure with loyal customers like you he's well on the way to fame and fortune.

Oh wait...

Or possibly instead of being based on 'nanny-state tripe' political views he thinks that a company would be wise distance itself from a faulty product that could hurt their reputation with prospective customers down the road, and try and save face by refunding customers after what they bought wasn't what they were told they were getting. Either way.

But no, you're probably right about it being a political thing.

I liked this thread better when Bubba Wheels didn't spark dog-piles. Maybe we have finally found our thread-kill out?

Speaking of which. I wonder who will ultimately be the thread killer? :)

I'm ruling Bubba Wheels out right now.

Thanks Bubba for putting this thread back on track.

LOL!

I'll do it!

Good luck getting a refund. This is software, baby. Caveat emptor.

I don't think single-ply fails to deliver what anyone expects.

However, it seems to me that Maximum Football has a myriad of unworking features, flat out broken parts, and just whack gameplay (obvious money plays).

I am surprised when I saw this thread, but it seems that all the stats are in one field in the database. What?
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1078275

I wonder if they should show any more screen shots. I am noticing a lot of bi-racial players. They are black above the torso and white below.

Damn!

I thought Bubba's return to this thread would be a lot funnier.


:(

LOL! bi-racial dudes :D

They're like the twins that came in two colors except that guy didn'T have a twin, so he came out with different colors above and under the belt.... hrm, wonder what color is the thing at belt level (or slightly under belt level ;))? Nope, don't even want to know :D

FM

The white legs are just really dry skin.

LOL! When I get ashy, my legs don't get a bronzed tan. This is a science experiment/football something.

In all fairness, the Arizona State players could just be guys with uneven tans...

Funniest thing I've ever seen in a sports game resulted from a corrupted copy of MicroLeague Baseball for the C64. Turns out you could copy the GM/Box Score disks cleanly, but not the Game disk. Anyway, we were playing a game that seems to be fine when all of a sudden, the little smurf players started running through the outfield wall, across the field, and generally all over the place. At the same time, the scoreboard was still attempting to display text describing the action (I liked how MicroLeague did this btw, and really it isn't that far from what OOTP still does, or at least did in v5...haven't yet played v6). The action went something like:

CAREW CAREW!

CAREW CAREW CAREW!!

Still makes me smile. Guess that's the 13yo in me.

Why are those offensive and defensive linemen dancing with each other?:)

No shit, get a room, people, jeez.

Heaven help me I miss Football Pro.

I actually loaded FBPRO 98 on to my machine and gave it a whirl. It's not nearly as pretty as that screenshot makes it out. But it works! :D

I really wonder what happened to my copy of FBPro 98...

I wish I could find mine as well.

Here's Football Pro on E-Bay. Woot! Was this the first one or the second one???


http://cgi.ebay.com/Front-Page-Sport...QQcmdZViewItem

WOW.

I have FBPro 98 and never played it or really heard much of it. I received it as a gift in maybe 99, but never installed it on my computer (I wasn't much into computer games at the time). Looks like I missed out on something :(
That's the one with Marino on the cover, right?

Or hell, get the whole numbered series.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Front-Page-Sport...ayphotohosting