Yeah but I think comparing a computer game to going out to dinner is just way off base.

In some respects, I agree entirely with what you're saying. However, if this is what we expect, then EA should be apologizing with every release given their hopelessly overblown marketing machine. Sadly, this is the state of the sports game industry.

I think you're right. I'm as guilty as the next guy. I think dialing back the expectations a bit would be a good thing. When sports sims first started emerging in the market, they were so new and revolutionary that any flaws were easy to overlook. Now the bar moves forward so incrementally and expectations so great that any failing gets blow out of proportion.

That said, I think it's a two-way street. Developers need to be more realistic in promoting their products and releasing games when they're ready, not when they need to hit a deadline. Don't promote a feature list for a game unless you're already programmed the feature and know it works. Don't set a release date until the game is done, because if you miss the release date you're hosed and if you release a buggy game. Be honest with consumers and create realistic expectations.

Exactly! That's what I think to. That's why Shaun over at Pure Sim gets major points, he produces his game and allows the public to beta the game and get things worked out, so when it's launched it's a much cleaner product than a company that has an exclusive beta. But this is all part of the development process. Many games nowadays are unfinished when released. That's why there are such a thing as patches. Games like Half-Life, Quake, Battlefield all have been patched numerous times throughout their release to fix errors and improve gameplay, just like SI is doing with OOTP2006.

Maybe if it were a place where you could get a basic order, then the chef can keep coming out and fine tuning your meal every 10 mins to try and make it the best meal you've eaten.

That can happen with games like this, it can't happen in restaurants. I personally like when games are released, and then a large community of gamers can hack at it and help fine tune the game, adding pieces the game devs possibly missed or overlooked.

I'm not defending 2k6 though, i'm not really impressed with this specific release. It's not even really playable which is a big factor. When you launch an incomplete game that needs fine tuning, it should at least be playable from the start. (disclaimer: I know it's "playable" overall - ie it works, but there are some big features not working right or not there that make it unfun for many if you do play it)

Overall however, I like games that launch pretty fun games then improve them over time with feedback from fans and patches. It bothers me to see an xbox game released with obvious flaws yet little gets changed once it's launched.

Takes note of this and is very glad that virtual punches across the internet don't leave bloody noses.

On a more serious note if that line did offend anyone then I apologise for it.

Marc Duffy News for Patch 2.

http://www.ootpbaseball2006.com/news...ws=view&id=106

I really hope they put the ability to look at previous years stats from the roster screen. That alone is breaking the game for me, as silly as it sounds. I didn't realize how often I looked at previous year stats whenever doing pretty much anything.

Since they have splits and double splits, it would be great to not only look at previous years stats, but possibly even select a year.

This Year
Last Year
Last 3 Years
Career
--Select Year:
--2006
--2005
etc

Is the demo still on a 14 day limit?

The time limit of the demo will be fixed in the next patch, I believe.

I'd disagree. I know that there are a lot of the same bugs and AI garbage in 2006, but I think the game has taken a step back. There were a lot of things taken out of 6.5.

-No weather. Small to some but a nice touch.
-No one pitch managing. Yes, there is the F1 key, but that just sims the at-bat. The CPU can steal for you, etc.
-No bullpen warming up. Small again, but another area that gave more control to the user.
-Trading block/Finding out who you can get. I liked being able to see what a team had available for a certain player. I know some say that's unrealistic, but I also don't have 6 hours to trade my mediocre 2B because I have to make 300 trade offers till I figure out what a team wants. In real life teams make counteroffers and let you know what is available.
-Stars. Again, small, but also helped some of us who wanted to speed things up. Could have been a toggle on or off option for those who didn't want it.
-Player Value Toggle - This is one of the big ones for me. 6.5 allowed you to toggle how the CPU valued a player. Current stats, prior stats, 2 year old stats, and ratings. If a mediocre guy is having a monster year, he could get benched for a guy with higher ratings. I was able to resign a guy who hit .324 and had 40+ SB for next to nothing because his ratings weren't that great. This is also a reason why you'll hardly see a guy over 30 starting after simming a decade or two.
-Importing 6.51 seasons are pointless. Too much stuff is lost or altered. Hard to throw away a league you've been on for a year or two for a game that doesn't offer much more.

I can go on and on. A lot of the AI is now worse off than before because of the flexibility of the game. The game had trouble handling a 3 team minor league system and is having a tougher time handling the bigger systems now.

Yes, the game has new features. However, scouting guys in Zimbabwe or building some crazy league really was never that appealing to me. I like doing historical sims and playing out realistic MLB seasons. Many of the other new features don't work right and make it useless.

So yes, there are a lot of similar issues in the two games. But there are also a lot of old things that people liked that are missing now. It would be fine if the game took huge leaps and bounds in other areas, but it hasn't. Some more stats and international leagues aren't worth giving up those other things for.

I kind of agree. I actually think it started going downhill with the ITP game. He got overconfident and was dominating text based sims. I think one year he took a lot of time that would have been spent on OOTP and put it into ITP. ITP was a disaster IMO and I think it set him back a year in the development of OOTP. Other developers caught up.

I also think he needs to surround himself with guys who have good baseball knowledge and understand logic. I think he gets calls from a lot of the regulars for features like international leagues and other things that only a small percent care about, but take a lot of time.

I think it'd be worth it for them to hire someone with deep baseball knowledge who can just sim out leagues and give feedback on the logic. Not just roster AI, but in-game AI. I think the users expect more now and they just don't have the knowledge of the game to keep improving. It's time to turn to outside sources for that knowledge.

I think this will prove difficult. OOTP is Markus' puppy and will always be so. Asking someone to take over from a "baseball knowledge" point-of-view would be hard to do. In my dealings with him, Markus has always been a stand-up guy, but ultimately OOTP is his game. He's an excellent programmer who can design and implement very quickly. He's also very open to suggestions and concerns from the user community. However, I'm not sure it's feasible for him to take a step back and turn the high-level design of AI (as an example) over to someone else.

Pretty much my take. And precisely the bottom line why I believe there's no reasonable hope for it to ever improve.

I jumped in and bought 2006 on day one, and like many of you I am disappointed with the wacky AI and broken financial model. However, I'm really pining for some good, text sim baseball, something more realistic/detailed than what is offered by "MLB: The Show". I'd rather not fork out another $30 for OOTP 6.5 ($20 for 6.0 and $10 for 6.5), so I was wondering how OOTP 5 with catobase (I love detailed almanacs) compares to OOTP 2006. I know I could just download the free version and try for myself, but I was hoping one of you fellas could give me a quick opinion. Oh, and I might be open to Pure Sim as well if it garners a general FOFC seal of approval.

For what it's worth, I play OOTP5 every year. Right now, I am 2 months in on another career. Granted, I have only played this as a historical league with the lahman50 database. I view this game (and the other text sims that I lke) as a strategy game instead of a simulation. With the setup I've been using with OOTP5, it maskes some of the funny business to where I can concentrate on simming a month at a time and fully engage in my favorite parts of the game (trading - I think 5.11 has the best trade AI; drafting, free agency and pouring through the Almanacs). Ymmv.

A 3 year update. Fermin Jerrez hit .296, 26, 73 in year one (110 game season). After started year 2 with .263, 2, 14 (28 games), Jerrez went down with a Torn Anterior Cruciate Ligament and was lost for the season. We let him walk after the season, and he bounced back with a .333, 21, 91 year with another club.

Over the 3 years, we won 40, 51, and 47 games. It is taking quite awhile for our prospects to provide any help, and our owner is pretty tight with the wallet. Hopefully, we can break the .500 mark (55 wins) this season. I have still managed all of our games.

A summarization would take afew pages, was my point.:rolleyes:

In my current OOTP historical career, I noticed this for another team

I guess their GM/coach couldn't decide between the two. Then it got tired of doing that (probably because those two players were griping) and started messing with Wallace Cash

The sad thing is I don't know if your "current OOTP historical career" is from OOTP2 or 2006.

Oh sorry, it is from OOTP5.

Things like this would get the gripers to scream 'unplayable' but if you think about it, what are the net results of all of this? The team is charged $798,000 for the contract of Cash and with either Gernert or Lemon, they get a good hitter in the lineup. The AI, in its stupidity, does waste money because of this but that is easily fixed (by giving them cash at the end of the season).

He was being sarcastic because of the quality of the AI. Trust me, we all know you play OOTP5, you've reminded us about 10,000,000 times.

But I would hope that, by the 5th version (or later) of a game, you wouldn't have to resort to these kinds of workarounds. Its a very EA-esque type of thing to not fix, especially as a known problem from a couple years ago.

I agree with you but that seems to have been common for all of these games (except for FBCB perhaps): to do workarounds or house rules so you can get a more competitive AI. This game does the things I like very well which is why I keep playing it.

I really believe that a (baseball?) game can't do both very well (career sim vs coach sim), esp. from a small development shop. I can't articulate why but it seems to need to concentrate on one or the other.

Latest patch 2 fix list just posted

1.0.2
-----

- Fixed a series of memory leaks causing the game to perform badly the longer it was left open and simming
- Improved the memory footprint of the game when handling large amounts of data
- Improved loading time and game speed
- Trade offers no longer expire after using the back button
- The game now remembers position filters when on the lineup or ratings page
- The free agent pool after creating a league no longer contains top prospects
- Player list now sorted by last names instead of first names
- Fixed scrollbar bug on player history page and other pages
- The AI no longer adjusts lineups for human teams when managing a game
- Fixed problems with the usage of depth chart settings
- Added Wild Pitches to the team pitching stats table
- Added passed balls to the team fielding stats table
- Added player league level to the options available in the filter dialog for player lists
- Tweaked Passed Ball and Wild Pitch frequencies
- Tweaked player position rating calculation & importing
- Fixed importing of OOTP 6.5 HBP ratings
- Middle Relievers are valued less in trades
- Adjusted salaries for closers
- Improved 40-man roster selection AI
- Improved bullpen AI
- Tweaked injury severeness
- Fixed rare crash when viewing league history

Is that the entire list? Are there any plans on having stats on the roster / depth chart pages other than current season? For so many splits in the game, i'm absolutely shocked I can't select a year to view stats or even just look at last years numbers (or last 3 years) without going to the almanac thing.

Those fixes look nice otherwise, but i'm personally not playing the game until the stats are in the roster page. I look at stats from earlier seasons far too much, and it's really a game breaker for me :(

Assuming it's like they did with the first patch, that's a list of what's been fixed to date, not a list of what will be fixed when the patch is released.

To clarify, it's a list of potential fixes, or things they're addressing.

Good point, i'm praying they still add the stats in.

I hope they deal with velocity ratings for pitchers. Right now they have no meaning. I drafted a guy that threw only a knuckleball and curve and had velocity of 90-92. A 92 mph knuckleball?

Velocity has meant nothing for several versions now...it's about time we just forget it's there.

How many strikeouts is this guy throwing? A 92 mph knuckleball has to be impossible to hit.

It might mean nothing, but I thought that it 6.5 it was supposed to be a factor in determining if someone was tired, and in ver 6 at least, knuckleballs usely topped out at 70 something.

I'm sure the suggestion has been heard by them already, but I did suggest it again. I agree, it'd be a nice feature to have.

Well, in reality, a 92 mph knuckleball would be as impossible to hit as a 92 mph fastball. The whole point of a knuckleball is to not give it any spin, so it can carry naturally, and start dipping and diving. A knuckler thrown that fast would just go straight, I'd imagine.

I have a feeling this patch 2 won't fix the waivers, trades and releases, minor league promotions, demotions, etc that the AI does.

You probably will see weird AI things again in the transactions screen when it comes to waivers, trades and releases, minors promotion, major leagues demotion, etc.

These bugs been going on from versions to versions and still in the new engine. I don't see how this patch will fix it. Markus has to change his logic for the AI. If not you going to see the same old bugs.

With a new engine you would of hope to see the AI be a lot better than previous versions from the old engine.

Dola

Troy

How is the testing going, now your on the dream team for the beta team?

What your AI impressions now?

Do they still have knuckleballers with lousy endurance?

Beta 2 Impressions
 

So far...

I'm actually pleased that the game seems to run pretty well on low-end machines and they're pretty hard to hacking off the memory issues that it was having even on better machines. And its working well on my clunker, better with the latest build. That's a huge thing, because I got tired of not being able to do anything other than sim seasons and nothing else with my PC.

I haven't seen any significant improvements on the AI side of the house yet, but I haven't done any extensive tests with the newest build. The previous builds still had all sorts of wacky stuff happening with sign and release deals, overpaying on contracts and the such or players with great careers finishing up in the minors, etc.

But again, I'll delve deeper tonight and then we'll see.

I understand in reality nobody is going to throw a 92 mph knuckler, but if someone threw a knuckleball going 92, it would still have to have no spin to be classified as a knuckleball. A ball that fluttered like a knuckleball while traveling at 92 mph, I believe would be tough to hit. Thanks for the explanation though, Scooter.;)

That was my point. If you could actually throw a knuckleball that fast, it would fail to meet the definition of a knuckler, and would therefore be a fastball.

Oh, and when I thought you were infantilizing me with the "scooter" comment, I decided I didn't like you. Then I realized you were referring to me as that damn talking FOX baseball...now I hate you.

:)

Continuing with the knuckleball threadjack. I knuckleball thrown at 92 MPH would in fact move very little (I suppose if you threw it directly into a hard wind it might move, but then if you can throw knuckleball 92 MPH into a hard wind you probably aren't human.).

The sweet spot for maximum movement in a knuckleball is between 50-70 MPH. Anything below 50 probably doesn't even make it to the plate, but also would not cause enough drag to move the ball. The faster you go over 70 the more the air smooths out behind the ball which will in turn make the ball fly straighter. There is your mini knuckleball physics lesson for the evening. :)

But everyone who pitches can and does throw a fastball though not necessarily an effective one. I've always role played the velocity number this way, the top you can get a fastball thrown and never really thought they were throwing their knucklers or changeups etoc at this speed. In game terms it makes the number meaningless in this case but for me it tends to help me visualize the player a bit. Of course, the visualization is meaningless and I don't judge by it but it's eye candy.

This was just a good place to reply to the velocity thing. I realize it has nothing to do with your point but yours is at the end of the queue as mine will now be. :)

PS> Our patch lists are 'works in progress' rather than 'this is what will be present'. As such they grow as we implement and have tested more fixes.

The reason we do this is simply that otherwise we could post our 'aimed fix list' and find that one of the fixes will take 3 months to implement and test properly by which time most users will have given up waiting patiently and lynched us ... thus posting items as they're rectified ensures that people know whats going on, can see we are working hard on things and removes any problematic issues with potential release dates for the patches.

I was told today that last year stats + two years ago stats have been added to the roster screen. I'll make sure I look at this in the next build and confirm for you Steve.

It's really to early for me to comment on results. I can promise you the issues and the concerns have been posted and some freakin brilliant people are analyzing things in depth and posting their thoughts. (good they want a couple of dolts on there too, of I'd be in trouble) :)

At least we can say it's been productive in terms of the in-depth analysis people are willing to do. And what I'm finding, is just because I think things should be a certain way, doesn't necessarily make them right :) Having a big group of people with different ideas definately helps put your thoughts into perspective.

That said, it's not like they aren't trying to fix the issues...

Yeah, they are clearly working hard. There are "dream team" guys for every issue it seems. You have guys who have did an incredible job at analyzing bullpen AI, another guy is looking at the memory issue in depth and reporting his finds with every build, Sack is doing a bang up job on the in game management issues. Another guy is looking at imports from 6.5 and what is happening there.

I'm running through multi year sims and pouring through stats, but it's so early in the process, I don't think it's fair to issue a thumbs up or down at this point.

:D

I was hoping you would know what I was referring to, but I had my doubts. I couldn't remember the talking baseball's name and had to look it up. I can't decide which is a bigger travesty in baseball: the 1994 strike, steroids, or Scooter.