The pirates got shut out by a nobody for 8 innings tonight. As per usual.

I fully expect them to chase Zach on sunday though, they seemingly get up for most major pitchers it seems.

Meche will probably no hit them on Saturday though.

Dear god, you're a Yankee fan as well? What bandwagon haven't you jumped on?

Someone shoot me. I can't take another one of these Rangers games. Josh Hamilton, please hurry back.

Btw, Tim Lincecum is good.

9 IP, 12 K's, 1 ER (HR to Jason Giambi), 108 pitches.

Not sure what you're talking about. I've always been a Yankees fan and only a Yankees fan. I think you're confusing me with Roma Goth.

Leyland brings in a RH pinch hitter despite a RHP on the mound and gets a walk-off 2 run shot to win 5-4.

After Zumaya blew the lead allowing a 2-run shot by Hoffpauir on changeup after blowing him away with 2 fastballs. The previous batter, Bradley, he struck out on a 104 mph fastball.

Over 140 at-bats this season? The guy has averaged hitting over .300, 40 homers, and 120 RBIs a season since he signed that contract. He's off to a slow start this year but I'd still wager he finishes the year with around 30 homers and an average close to .300. Hard to find many players in the league who have been that consistent.

Maybe he's not worth the money, but I wouldn't consider it anywhere close to the worst of all time.

Well, he's only had one season under the contract so I'm not sure where you are getting an average from.

My thinking is that the Yankees bid against themselves to sign him to a 10 year 275-300M dollar deal at the age of 32, and since then he has been revealed as a steroid user AND suffered a severe hip injury that could change what kind of a player he is. Add into that all the bad PR he brings.

I mean, there are 8.5 years left on that deal.

To say it's a little too early to judge the ARod contract is an understatement. Even if this year is a write-off due to recovery from the injury, he still could be a great player for several more years. However, given that the Yankees obviously paid a premium for the guy with the thought of heavily promoting and cashing in on his all-time HR chase, and the steroids thing popping up, I'd say that contract is already not worth it - at least at the exact price they paid for him. In fact, I think he gets a $30M bonus for breaking the record.

If you throw on top of that a string of bad seasons, or missed time with various injuries, then yes, this contract would be one of the worst ever. It's like 3 times Hampton's contract, so he doesn't have to be completely out of the game for several years like Hampton was for it to be worse. I really don't have anything against ARod one way or the other, but since it's the Yankees, I hope they get as close to a negative return on investment as possible.

Obviously, right now, it's not the worst. But I think the potential for it to get there is fairly high.

People generally only get worse after 33. Unless they're juicing.

Well, Meche isn't exactly a rube, having a 3.31 ERA coming into his last game (where he absolutely got shelled because Hillman criminally sent him out in the 9th his previous game with 115 pitches under his belt so he logged 132 with no off day before his next start). He's going Friday.

Speaking of rubes, we're going to have to call up some sort of something to pitch Saturday night, so you get to take your pick. Sidney Ponson, Bruce Chen, Kyle Davies... take your pick. If you get no hit on Saturday night, yeah, that's a problem. ;)

SI

There's chatter in KC that they may run a 4 man rotation for one time around. May be just chatter, but it has been mentioned on the airwaves.

I just don't see how they can do that this time around with what they've done to those guys arms of late, particularly the big 2. Plus, we don't have another off day until the All Star Break. If they did that, it would be stupid.

SI

What's your point? :D

I know, I know

SI

Seriously... Hanson got out of it with no runs, but Holy Crap, that can't last forever. You can't let that many baserunners on. He does make games interesting though.

Exactly right. What is intriguing is this "write-off" season, A-Rod has a 117 OPS+. I can see him returning to his MVP type performance after fully getting over the hip injury.

Though it will be incredibly interesting to see what happens when/if A-Rod approaches Bonds' record. I'm sure the publicity will be huge, which will get the Yankees very good return on that.

Sorry, I was at the game last night so didn't get online to post.

We can start with the starting pitchers. While there is a lot of talent there, of the 5 pitchers 4 are rookies. The fifth is in his second year. On any other MLB roster Lannan would start and maybe Martis. That's it. The bullpen? Beimel would probably start elsewhere and maybe Vilone. Hanrahan a middle reliever elsewhere, but the Nats keep trying him as a closer. The infield starters for sure elsewhere are Zimmerman, Guzman and Johnson. I don't see Hernandez starting elsewhere nor any of the active catchers. Nieves might ride the pine somewhere else. The OF obviously has Dunn, but beyond that the best you have are young bench players elsewhere (Dukes, Willingham), utility players (Harris) or washed up guys in AAA (Kearns). I didn't bother looking at the 25-man roster, as just viewing the starting lineup shows how woeful it is.

And last nights loss was terrible. To the sell out crowd of Red Sox fans no less. Ugh. Really, it was probably 50/50, but Nationals fans don't do any cheering to rally their team.

And, btw. I don't complain when in an AL stadium and your pussy pitchers can't get up to bat. ;) The Nationals were even able to beat the Yankees in that situation! :)

That OPS+ is trending downwards, and fast. Over the last month (100 PA) his OPS is .600. I don't think it's a farfetched thought that he will have the rest of the hip surgery soon and be done for the year, he's been terrible out there.

He's just keeping it interesting before he blows away the opposition, similar to a cat playing with a mouse before the kill.

He wasn't exacly "blowing away" the opposition there ;). A few of those outs were close to being hits.

And at least one of those walks (to Jeter) was after a BS call with two strikes. Even without that he's still walking too many guys though.

Anyway everyone knows that win-loss record is the only true way to evaluate a starter and Hanson is perfect so far ;)

which we can now assume he is

The Yankees outlay on publicity may be huge, but i wonder if the public will care (because of the steroids and because he's a yankee and then the two things combined) or if the publicity coming back to them will be mostly negative?

re: A-Rod's contract

Did any info ever leak out about what teams other than the Yankees were offering?

If we are talking about BS calls, the strike zone was unusually generous widthwise to pitchers last evening. At least it benefited both teams (at least it appeared to from where I was sitting)

How much did the Rockies end up paying Hampton? I know they didn't pay all of the $121 million, but they had to pay a pretty large portion of it because they were paying him even when he moved on to other teams.

I'm sure the specifics are out there somewhere, but all I recall about his contract is that he got traded to the Marlins for like 2 days before they sent him to Atlanta, and I believe the Marlins ended up picking up some of his contract to make that deal happen, even though he never pitched for them. I don't recall the specifics, though.

I'd say Denny Nagles contract was the worst ever.

I was curious so I went and checked out the indispensable Cot's Baseball Contracts:


Florida first got Hampton and Juan Pierre ($6.6M the next 3 seasons) while sending to Colordo the contracts of Preston Wilson ($27.5M/3) and Charles Johnson ($25M/3) as well as Vic Darensbourg ($1.1M) and Pablo Ozuna. So, pure salary dump for the Fish.

Then Hampton gets dealt to the Braves with the Fish paying $23.5M and the Atlanta sending back Tim Spooneybarger and Ryan Baker.

So, in short:

Colorado gets: 2 crappy years of Mike Hampton for $49M, bloated contracts of Preston Wilson ($26.5/3) and Charles Johnson ($25M/3) as well as Vic Darnsbourg and Pablo Ozuna

Fish get: Out from under aforementioned contracts (51.5M/3) as well as Tim Spooneybargerand Ryan Baker for $23.5M, giving up Vic Darnsbourg and Pablo Ozuna

Braves give up Baker and Spooneybarger for a $48.5M/4 Mike Hampton who ends up being halfways decent for them.

I'd be curious to see what all of this looks like in WAR and WAR-dollars.

SI

Fixed that for you ;)

Why did people hate Justice?

Yeah, I was wondering that myself. Never heard of that before.

Most of the transactions are dead ends but some are fun like tracing that Charles Johnson becomes Byung-Hyun Kim who becomes Jorge Julio. Or when Preston Wilson becomes JJ Davis and Zack Day, who was traded by Washington in 2005 and then reclaimed by them in 2006 when Colorado places him on waivers.

SI

from the '95 WS Wiki
"Controversy struck on the morning of Game 6 when Atlanta newspapers printed stories that right fielder David Justice had ripped the city's fans for not matching their motivation of past seasons. Justice, who had been struggling in the postseason, was vilified before the game, but when his sixth inning home run broke a 0–0 tie, he became a hero."

He was indeed cheered that night but a lot of people never forgave or forgot him, his arrogance, and his mouth. I could live the rest of my life without ever laying eyes on the arrogant prick again & frankly, would just as soon have lost the WS than have him be the cocksucker that won Game 6.

Off the top of my head I can't recall hearing any player get more boos in his own stadium during a pivotal game before doing anything (i.e. he didn't go 0-4 with the bases loaded & get booed subsequently or something like that) than he was that night. Certainly some did forget in light of the home run, a lot of us haven't and never will.

edit to add: It's believed in some circles at least (i.e. I recall the discussion at the time, no idea what the conventional wisdom in baseball is today) that the incident played a big part (along with his general attitude, his salary, and his injury shortened season in '96) in him being traded to Cleveland the during spring training '97

We're still working on the tree of Ricardo Rincon-

Rincon becomes Giles

Giles becomes Bay and Oliver Perez

Bay becomes Andy Laroache, Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, Brian Morris
Perez becomes Nady, who was the main trade chip for Ohlendorf/Karstens/Tabata/McCutcheon(not the good one).

Igawa cost the yankees $46M dollars, and he only won 2 games.

They at least got 9 wins out of Pavano.

I have to say, while I think Justice is a jackass, his game 6 comments were 100% on the money.

That Grissom and Justice for Lofton trade was one of the worst moves Atlanta made during their run, made even worse by letting Lofton walk at the end of the year.


I agree on the bolded part.

Right, the fans in Atlanta DO suck. I've been to September games against the Mets in the heat of the race and seen a half-empty stadium. Most of the games I've been to have been fairly poorly attended, which says something when you can go for 6-12 bucks.

Granted, getting to the stadium can be a bit of a hassle at times, but having waded through the masses at Fenway plenty of times, I'd rather drive.

And had no business coming from a player who routinely disappeared during the post-season (including that 95 WS except for one lucky swing).

if i could go to a game for 6-12 bucks id go every night. fans elsewhere have it good man!!

Now there's an understatement.

It's a lousy location in a bad part of town, parking is an absurd mess, I've never liked the new stadium, and at best you get what you pay for with those $6-$12 tickets (i.e. not much). And now it's a mediocre product at best. Truthfully, I'm amazed that they draw as well as they do at this point.

I think I've paid for tickets twice in the past 15 years, every other trip (including post-season, including The Night Sid Slid) has been company freebies. And if I didn't have a kid the number of times I'd have paid would be zero without a doubt. It's just a lousy bang for the buck (when you remember that there's a hell of lot more in the cost than just tickets) and hasn't been a good experience with the exception of the Braves museum since Turner Field opened.

I'm strongly considering a rare exception to that next month however, as they honor Maddux in July. But even that is still up in the air & we're talking about pretty much my favorite male athlete in my lifetime.

I refuse to drive down there. I take MARTA from Five Points and hit the shuttle from there.

Ah yes, Marta. If that isn't a good reason to stay away from Turner Field nothing is.

Oh please... its pretty easy to get to with MARTA. Why drive down to the stadium? The stadium seating is somewhat lame, but not absurdly so. It really is something that gets waaaay more lumps than justified (why Creative Loafing named it the most underrated thing in Atlanta).

It's almost a joke how empty the stadium usually is (not, of course, when the Cubs or Yankees or Red Sox are in town). Especially during playoffs. And don't care if someone sucks in the postseason, his comments were 100% on the money.

MARTA may suck in a lot of ways, but they have excellent service to get to the Braves games. They have tons of shuttles running, enough so that I've never had to wait more than 3 minutes to get on one going there or coming back.

I actually find driving there pretty easy. Then again, I usually sneak in from 20 and Moreland. I'm in the parking lot usually about 10 minutes after getting off the highway, and if you're taking I20 home (away from the connector) you can be from the lot to the highway in about 5 minutes. Of course we went a few weeks ago and the back entrances to the lots were all barricaded, meaning I had to drive from 20 up to Hank Aaron Drive and enter from there. All told though, I parked near the back, walked to the stadium in <10 minutes and we sat happily in our $6 seats. I actually think the stadium is laid out fairly well and never miss any action in my cheap seats.

I'm just amazed that it's so damn cheap and people still don't go. I mean, the product could be better, but Chipper, McCann, Lowe, Vazquez, Soriano, and a few others have played fairly well.

MARTA to the stadium is too much of a hassle, going to Underground and waiting for shuttles is silly. MARTA is the the bomb for going to the Georgia Dome or Phillips.

All this talk is making me think we need to have an FOFC meetup at a Braves game.

It's been at least ten years, probably more, since I took Marta anywhere & didn't end up wishing I'd drove. If the pure raw stench of the trains doesn't get you, the lack of adequate trains for most event traffic does. Marta might actually be the organization (and I use the term loosely) that keeps Grady Hospital from being the worst run outfit in the country. They make the federal government look efficient & well run by comparison.


Catch-22, as you get lousy seats for reasonable prices or reasonable views at lousy prices.


We disagree. His job is to give people a reason to want to be there beyond making a donation to the ownership's coffers. Except for one fluke swing, he consistently failed to do that.

Like I said, they have tons of shuttles lined up for the Braves games. I've never had to wait very long.

Well y'all can find me at Turner Field for the next 5 days while the Yanks and Red Sox are in town ;).


And I ride MARTA each and every day to work and back and have little complaints with it. They've even been a minimum of delays lately. It could use some actual funds from the State of GA and the ability to dip into the capital fund, but it is a fairly well run rail system and I'd never think of driving into work.


Yeeeeeah, because his regular season contributions had nothing to do with getting them in that position.

And actually in a few series, he played very well, such as the 1991 WS (OPS of .856), 1992 NLCS (OPS of .979 - no way they make it to the WS without his bat), and the 1995 WS (OPS of .850 - no way they win with WS without his bat).

But you have to get to those shuttles for that to matter.

I don't mean to suggest that the shuttles are where the system fails to meet expectations, I'll take your word for that part working okay.

You obviously enjoy traffic (but then again, you don't live near here). My mom lives in Decatur, I can park my car at her apartment and walk to the Decatur MARTA...can be at the entrance to Phillips in 15 minutes (including waiting) or the dome in 20. Trip will cost <$4 round trip and leaving events they usually have a stack of trains waiting. I don't understand why anyone would drive and park for Phillips when it will take you 20 minutes just to get from the highway to the lot, and cost you another $20 to park.

As has been said, imagine the if the idiots in the legislature actually put some money into it. It is one of the only major transportation systems that receives no state money. But hey, they'd rather pray for rain and debate other issues that nobody really cares about.

Had to respond to this: :confused:

I went and saw the Yankees vs. the Braves last night for $16 (regular price is $11, IIRC), straight back in the Upper Deck. Great seats and a great price.

Are we talking about the crowds in the regular season? No.

He's complaints was that the crowds were so much more enthusiastic in Cleveland and my response is that their crowds were getting more reason to be enthusiastic.

You have to look at some perspective for what had come before.
-- The loss to the Twins was a blow for a team that hadn't done anything of note in the adult lifetime of most fans. For a short while, fans believed ... and then Puckett met Liebrandt
-- The loss to the Blue Jays kicked that enthusiasm of '91 in the teeth when Winfield faced Liebrandt.
-- Getting knocked out in the NLCS in '93 felt like an unfortunate reality check
-- Then we get the strike of '94.

By the time '95 got here fans were, legitimately IMO, having a tough time believing that it wouldn't ultimately be more of the same disappointment in the end. 30 years of losing will do that I guess, as I'm sure Cleveland fans could attest. Difference was, '95 was their '91. They hadn't been brought to the brink only to be dashed yet, Atlanta fans had.

Ahhh ... south side, not north side. Different experience, 'cause I've done it from both.


Phillips/Dome is 10x worse to me, truly never had a good experience with anything but driving for that.

SEC, Falcons, Thrashers, PBR, Monster Trucks, you name it, I've never seen them adequately schedule & have given up on using it for anything there completely. I think the last straw was standing on the temporary bridge to the station for more than two hours after an SEC title game & feeling it sway beneath our feet from the weight as we waited in vain to escape. Although the unintentional comedy of having the PBR and the NBA All-Star game simultaneously, and having both crowds on the platform at the same time was amusing in a bizarro world kind of way ;)


You don't really want a debate on that subject anyway, as the majority of legislators would have their heads chopped off at home -- Macon, Savannah, Dublin, Elberton, et al -- if they voted for tax dollars from there being spent on what is essentially in metro only project. Atlanta is already considered hell on earth by much of the state, last thing anybody from those areas wants is to be forced to pay for one of it's worst aspects.

While I'll never pretend to be a Braves fan, one of things that I've always wondered about is the references to the Braves (and teams like the Bills when they had the Superbowl streak) as losers.

I mean sure, they weren't winning the title, but those were fantastically successful stretches for those franchises. I can understand some frustration from their fans, but I mean come on, it's not like they're sitting through 100 loss seasons and dealing with the game to game struggles of a mediocre team.

Sure, just like the 80's Oilers the expectations become higher the better a team does, but it amazes me how many fans will take that level of regular season accomplishment for granted, never mind the playoff success involved during that time span for both the Braves and Bills (a more recent example being the Eagles even).

Sure it's disappointing, but it's a hell of a lot better than it is for a lot of others teams fans on a yearly basis, never mind over such a prolonged stretch.

Take that for what it's worth from a guy who cheers for the Oilers (was quite young during the glory days, so I'm a lot more familiar with the pain that is cheering for them over the last 15 years), Seahawks and Blue Jays. Been on both sides of the coin with all 3 teams to some extent.

And as I pointed out, he had a very good World Series in 1995. Braves don't win without his contributions. Saying hopes being dashed is the biggest copout of all time. It's the same excuse they used for saying why they weren't getting crowd after 15 straight division titles. It's basically just an excuse for having crap baseball fans in Atlanta.

Gavin Floyd pitched his 7th QS in a row today and the chisox hit 6 homeruns against the dodgers to win 10-7.

Floyd has really found it lately, hope he keeps it up.

The Braves won a World Series in their run, they shouldn't be mentioned alongside the Bills at all imo.

To paraphrase Meatloaf

Baby don't be sad-
Cause one of 14 ain't bad.

I agree 100%. That kind of prolonged success is amazing. Even if the Braves had been even more snakebit than they were and won 0 titles, I'd rather be a Braves fan than a Marlins fan any day.

SI

Carpenter vs Santana, this'd be a nice one to be at home watching. Ah how good Carpenter would look in the Jays rotation. Though given how this year has gone and his own injury history, he'd probably have had a career ending injury of some sort by now.

Huh? Do you mean regular season? Because he sucked in that World Series for the first five games before managing to get two hits (the homer & a double) in Game 6 to raise his average to .250. Prior to that he was just 3 for 18 with no extra base hits.

As he has said since then, if he didn't hit the home run he would have had to leave town immediately following the WS. And he's right about that.

During the World Series, he had a .400 OBP and a .450 SLG for an OPS of .850.

I'm not sure which is dumber, judging a guy on 18 ABs or being offended by something an athlete said.

With his stats this year, no one is accusing Geovany Soto of taking PEDs. But apparently he was high on something.

SI

Yes, if you ignore the good stuff Justice did in the World Series, then I guess he had a shitty World Series.

He was 0-for-15 in AB's where he did not get a hit.

Which was only .453 (.286 OBP + .167 SLG) when he opened his mouth.
He was 3/18 with 3 walks in 5 games to that point in the series.

And in the other 19 post-season games since the '92 NLCS against the Pirates, he was just 12/64 with 1 double & 1 home run and 16 walks.
That's 15/82, an OBP of .316 and a SLG of .232 for an OPS of .548 over his five most recent series prior to that night. That's over 80 points lower than Jeff Francouer's YTD OPS for some perspective on how bad he had sucked over that three year period.

To say his numbers for the '95 WS turned significantly with that last game in an understatement. He went 2-4 with a HR, a 2B, and 2 walks in game six. That's the same number of extra base hits he managed in the previous TWENTY-FOUR POST-SEASON GAMES.

I never said he didn't show up for that one game, I said he was about the last guy on earth who had any business opening his mouth since his inability to produce in the post-season was one reason fans had little confidence in the team's chances to win and therefore their dwindled enthusiasm.

Look, you can defend the guy until hell freezes over, but I'm not alone in feeling like he was an arrogant prick who should have spent less time worrying about lame ass excuses like blaming the fans for the collective failures of the team and himself in particular.

Spare me. Please, for the love of all that's Holy, spare me.

We were talking about what he had done to the point where he made the comment. How difficult is that to comprehend? If you can't add anything useful in the right context, how about you just turn the computer off & shut the fuck up?

*cough*

Admittedly, the Royals rarely get to play in Houston. With that said, is there any chance that the left field fence distance is mislabeled? I'd be floored if it's more than 300 feet given the can-of-corn flyballs that have left the yard tonight.

That short porch in left at Minute Maid is pretty ridiculous.

dola,

But at the same time, it's not as ridiculous as the fact that deep center is a hill with a flagpole in the middle.

McCutchen battles an 0-2 count and then draws a bases loaded walk to tie the game. Then drives in the winning run in the bottom of the 9th. Now I know the book will probably catch up soon. But he has been amazing.

He is the first home grown guy to come along since Aramis Ramirez to look like he could be a legitimate all-star (on his own merit, rather than by the league taking the obligatory Pirate).

And Ian Snell pulled some Derek Bell type shit today, claiming he wanted to go down to AAA because of the negative attitude he receives. Or some pansy ass reasoning to that effect. So he can take a running start and fuck off. Classic million dollar arm and 10 cent head.

He's already a guy I wouldn't want to face with the game on the line. I think Matt Herges feels the same way this morning.

McCutchen does seem like he has "it" and it's also pretty cool to see such a player make his debut against your team. Just helps you get into his career a bit more than the typical hot prospect.

NATS WIN! NATS WIN!

It was glorious to hear the silence from all the obnoxious Red Sox fans. I know the Sox took 2/3, but to win 9-3 with a 4 run first inning was fantastic.

Small victories, I guess.

Another way to silence those fans is to actually have your own fans.

They've pulled within 7 games of the 2nd worst team in the league, and have done it all while having to make do with being in only the 4th biggest metro area in the US. I would hardly call that a small victory.

The Nats took 1 out of 3 from the Sox and improved their winning percentage. You gotta start somewhere.

:rolleyes:
Oh no, Justice isn't performing as fans think he should so they aren't going to show up to the FUCKING WORLD SERIES! And you wonder why people say Atlanta has horrible baseball fans?

I don't care if he was batting .001, if fans can't get excited for the World Series, they have no business having a halfway decent team. Even Miami got excited for their World Series appearances.

Well, the annoying thing is there are Nationals fans there, but they don't cheer. I mean, 50%ish of the fans at the park were Red Sox fans, but there were Nats fans there -- they're just shitty fans.


I would say rather that they had to do it with 9 games against the AL East.

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong as tongue in cheek, but I think it was, so let me be defensive for a moment. :)

MLB left this team in DISMAL shape. Two years with real ownership is hardly enough time to turn the team into a contender. The farm system and MLB rosters were pillaged during the MLB ownership years. The Lerners, for better or worse, have gone for a "farm system first" approach. That is obviously a long road. Are they executing that approach well? Perhaps not. Keeping Bowden too long didn't help the situation. But the Nationals are starting 4 rookie pitchers and a 2nd year guy and they are, IMO, doing rather admirable. The hodge-podge bullpen that Bowden put together is a complete failure, though.

Almost halfway through the season the Nationals are middle-of-the-pack in AVG, 6th in OPS and 9th in OBP. Situational hitting is abysmal with the third-worst LOB (577 compared to the best team, the Tigers, at 468), however. It's largely the bullpen ERA that has been the problem. It's a young team and the theory would be that in a few years they'll get hot. We'll see if that actually happens.


:banghead:

I agree with all that, I was just making a good-natured response to the knock on Red Sox fans.

And also, I loved going to baseball games in Montreal.....

I'm curious whether Washington will have a top 5 or 10 payroll at some point soon. Otherwise, the move to Washington might have actually put the franchise in a worse position. I thought the Nationals would create another big-market team to bring the other big markets down just a notch, and bring just a little more competitive balance. But they've basically been Montreal south.

They sold to the wrong owners.

The Lerners have pretty much said they won't be spending a lot of money. I can't find the quote, but I can look harder if you want. But they have basically said they don't think they should have to spend like NYY, BOS and CHC. It does annoy me that people call the Nationals a "small market team" when DC is not a small market. The Lerners did get screwed on one of the most potentially lucrative parts of the deal (the TV rights), but if they doubled the salary and really brought in some talent and succeeded, they would have a fan base. Instead they'll probably be somewhere in the realm of the of the Indians (who appear to be 15th in salary this year).

That's not only Justice, I'm talking about the general lack of belief (or reason to believe) that the Braves were going to win in the post-season.

My contention is that the lack of confidence in the team set in extremely early (as early as the b2b WS losses or even after the first one) in their playoff streak. After the loss to the Twins, the malaise had already set in, with Cabrera's pinch hit reviving it only to see the Blue Jays do them in. Loss in the NLCS in '93, then trailing the Expos when the strike hit in '94, which direction did the team seem to be heading? And looking at what followed after '95, that lack of confidence seems pretty well founded.

It seems to be lost on some folks in this thread that the Braves fan enthusiasm & energy, specifically the whole Chop Shop thing, was covered ad nauseaum by the media in the first couple of years. To the point that I remember complaints about it being covered (nothing to do with the whole native American symbol pseudo-controversy). It's not that fans here won't get involved, but they have to at least believe there's some point to it. And it's not traditional frontrunning, it's about seeing progress or reason to hope. I'd say there's a pretty good argument that the fans were more excited by & had more fun with the 13 game winning streak to start '92 than with most of the playoff appearances, it washed away the disappointing end of '91. The press box fire that coincided with McGriff's arrival in '93 helped generate excitement after another disapointing finish, but that got wiped out too. Getting there when you haven't, that's great. Winning it when you haven't, that's great too. Get there & lose repeatedly, that gets old to a lot of people.

Going to a WS game (or playoff game or whatever) for the sake of going is fine & dandy once or maybe even twice. Been there done that myself, so I get that part of the appeal. After a while though, I don't see much to be excited about if you're just going to watch your team lose. The thrill of just being there wears off pretty quickly. And that's what people expected -- losing -- the win over the Indians was pretty damned shocking stuff.

As for Miami, the Marlins record is World Series' is ... {cue Jeopardy music}
Lot easier to be excited when you think you might win something (and even on the first run, they believed even in the absence of historical evidence, so did the Braves the first time around). After Liebrandt came out of the bullpen a couple of times, Braves fans didn't believe and really haven't since, and likely won't as long as Cox is in the dugout.

So basically a whole bunch of excuses for being sucky fans. There is a reason Braves fans are laughed at in the rest of the country. It really basically is frontrunning. All these other things are just excuses. Bills fans still went to the 4th SuperBowl even though they lost the 3 in a row.

If not losing your mind with rapturous delight no matter what's happening = sucky fans {shrug} so be it I guess. But we're almost to the point that I could take that as two separate topics really, because I'm about the last guy on earth who will ever defend the people in the seats at Turner Field as knowledgeable baseball fans.

There's relatively few people at any Braves game in the past decade or so that care much for the team or the game, it's a social outing (akin to what Dodger Stadium had/has? a rep for). Most people in these parts who actually know the game or care just watch at home for the reasons we talked about earlier. The good of being there simply doesn't outweigh the negatives that go with being there. The Braves core audience for as long as I can remember has been suburban and increasingly over 20-30 years even exurban, the demographics of baseball & the city itself haven't resembled each other in years. The average Braves fan is 40+, maybe 50+ at this point and for the vast majority the only time we consider going to the stadium is if there's kids or grandkids involved. Otherwise we enjoy it more where the beer isn't $8, there's no line at the bathroom, and parking in the garage is free. So yeah, there's not a big diehard baseball contingent at a Braves game on a Wednesday night nor for a perfect night in October for that matter. I'd guess it would have one of the lower baseball IQ's of any stadium in the country on a regular basis.

But that really becomes separate from what Justice griped about & why I thought he was wholly out of line, they were failing to give the people that were in the seats reason to be enthusiastic. By '95, just being there wasn't going to cut it & until you show 'em, they aren't going to be fooled again. And it was insultingly arrogant of him not to recognize that. If fans elsewhere don't have the same standard, well, I'd say that's their problem not Atlanta's.

Meanwhile I'm sure you'd have no problems finding enough Braves fans willing to pay ridiculous prices like Super Bowl tickets too if you're only trying to sell the relative handful of tickets that are available to the general public. I mean even the Falcons didn't have any trouble selling their SB ticket allotment afaik even though they can't sell out playoff games to save their lives. Probably not the best comparison there, regardless of however much we disagree about the rest of this, that's just too apples & oranges.

There is a reason Atlanta Braves fans have such a piss poor reputation in the rest of the country. Its not just made up. But it seems we both agree on the type of fan attends games.

It appears that way, but I genuinely believe that's a different issue than the one we started with although I recognize now that I probably should have separated the two things sooner than I did.

Is Bruce Chen really pitching for the Royals today?

Yeah. The Pirates are baffled by his awesomeness thru 3.

I guess this is a Grays/Monarchs game.

I had no idea they still made that.

So apparently JC Romero physically attacked a fan in Tampa after the fan asked him to get him some steroids.

My question is how could any headline writer avoid using the phrase "roid rage" on that story?

Back in 2003 I went to Atlanta to see the Cubs play them in the NLDS. I kid you not it was 50% Cubs fans. I had no problem getting tickets either.