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Ben E Lou 08-22-2018 05:58 AM

On the "cooperation" front, I don't know the legal terminology, but this sure sounds like a dude who is off Team Trump and on Team Mueller to me.


Lathum 08-22-2018 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3215326)
Which would be a great defense if no US citizen ever committed murder. I realize he'll try and latch on to that, but c'mon. It's not like all murderers are illegal immigrants, and all victims of murder are citizens.


Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman (Post 3215328)
No to veer too far off course, but the guy accused of killing her evidently passed the E-verify process and had worked for the past several years at a farm owned by a prominent Iowa GOP family.


Do either of you honestly think his base cares? They will see a brown man from south of the border and go rabid.

Meanwhile Trump will parade around the memory of this poor girl as a symbol why we need this ridiculous wall built.

Ben E Lou 08-22-2018 07:33 AM

I don't care what his base thinks, nor have I ever been all THAT concerned with short-term outcomes, to be completely honest. It's doing/being right that matters. The consequences are largely irrelevant in the big scheme. *shurg*

kingfc22 08-22-2018 08:41 AM

The twitter tirade has begun :popcorn:

Ben E Lou 08-22-2018 08:45 AM

Cohen must be the worst attorney on the planet, and the judge in the case must be the worst judge for letting Cohen plead guilty to a felony that wasn't even a crime!




lungs 08-22-2018 08:45 AM

Wow. I was friends on Facebook with the farmer that the guy who murdered Tibbetts worked at. His account is not there today. Interestingly, the guy was very pro-Trump.

Chief Rum 08-22-2018 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lungs (Post 3215344)
Wow. I was friends on Facebook with the farmer that the guy who murdered Tibbetts worked at. His account is not there today. Interestingly, the guy was very pro-Trump.


What did he say? (that was taken down)

lungs 08-22-2018 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3215347)
What did he say? (that was taken down)


I didn't see anything after the arrest. The person that gave a statement to the media (I'm assuming his brother or father?), said the killer passed e-verify.

He probably took his own profile down due to the heat they are getting, even though they didn't break the law by employing the murderer.

Ksyrup 08-22-2018 09:48 AM

I don't know anything about E-verify, but can I safely assume that it should have caught the fact that this guy was in the country illegally? I'm glad we have all of these processes in place to make sure our laws are being implemented correctly.

NobodyHere 08-22-2018 09:54 AM

Cohen won't accept pardon from Trump, attorney says - POLITICO

I'm guessing Cohen's mind might change once the reality of prison sets in.

lungs 08-22-2018 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 3215352)
I don't know anything about E-verify, but can I safely assume that it should have caught the fact that this guy was in the country illegally? I'm glad we have all of these processes in place to make sure our laws are being implemented correctly.


If E-verify was reliable, yes it would have raised a red flag. But from what I’ve seen/heard it’s pretty good at catching people that are eligible work and not very good at catching those that are not. Legally, this farm actually went above and beyond what is required by the federal government to determine employee eligibility.

Thomkal 08-22-2018 10:04 AM

Heh, knew Trump would seize on the fact that 10 of the counts against Manafort were a mistrial.



"A large number of counts, ten, could not even be decided in the Paul Manafort case. Witch Hunt!"

PilotMan 08-22-2018 12:21 PM

Im guessing he has extended executive time today so he can feel better watching trump friends on tv.

Atocep 08-22-2018 12:35 PM

I'm actually starting to see GOP supporters acknowledge impeachment/resignation as a possibility now. I think it's still most likely that he finishes his term, declares victory, and doesn't run for reelection. I think the wild card will be Mueller's handling of Don Jr though. If Mueller moves to indict him I can see Trump doing something that effectively ends his Presidency.

Thomkal 08-22-2018 01:42 PM

Looks like the Dems have a plan in place in any attempt by Trump to stop the Mueller investigation:


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...y-plan-n902526

kingfc22 08-22-2018 02:50 PM

Why do they ever let this guy on live tv. He is completely incapable of putting a coherent thought together.

Here is his answer when asked about the payments to the porn stars he had affairs with "allegedly".

“Later on I knew. Later on. But you have to understand, what he did -- and they weren’t taken out of campaign finance, that’s the big thing. That’s a much bigger thing. Did they come out of the campaign? They didn’t come out of the campaign, they came from me. And I tweeted about it. You know, I put -- I don’t know if you know but I tweeted about the payments. But they didn’t come out of campaign. In fact, my first question when I heard about it was did they come out of the campaign because that could be a little dicey. And they didn’t come out of the campaign and that’s big."

Ksyrup 08-22-2018 03:33 PM

Here's my take on this whole thing...

I have no idea if Trump actually and specifically decided that he needed to pay off this woman in an attempt to "influence the election." I think, like in any situation involving tawdry allegations against a celebrity, payoffs through publishing companies who kill stories is the way these things get done. I think what happened here is that Trump didn't really understand the difference between being a celebrity and running for office. And in fact, he still doesn't understand the difference. But in this situation, he got caught up in violations of laws he is not smart enough to understand and no one thought to bring to his attention (or, since he loves being surrounded by YES MEN, no one wanted to bring to his attention). I think he totally believes that payoffs are fine as long as the money didn't come from the campaign because that wasn't necessarily his primary motivation - it was just to keep her quiet like he's done with all the others. Except, "tarnish my reputation" potentially becomes "influence the election" when you are running for office.

JPhillips 08-22-2018 03:44 PM

I was struck by his size in that interview. He looks like he's put on a hundred pounds since the election. If he makes it to the end of even one term he may give Taft a run for his money.

cartman 08-22-2018 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 3215392)
Here's my take on this whole thing...

I have no idea if Trump actually and specifically decided that he needed to pay off this woman in an attempt to "influence the election." I think, like in any situation involving tawdry allegations against a celebrity, payoffs through publishing companies who kill stories is the way these things get done. I think what happened here is that Trump didn't really understand the difference between being a celebrity and running for office. And in fact, he still doesn't understand the difference. But in this situation, he got caught up in violations of laws he is not smart enough to understand and no one thought to bring to his attention (or, since he loves being surrounded by YES MEN, no one wanted to bring to his attention). I think he totally believes that payoffs are fine as long as the money didn't come from the campaign because that wasn't necessarily his primary motivation - it was just to keep her quiet like he's done with all the others. Except, "tarnish my reputation" potentially becomes "influence the election" when you are running for office.


But admitting the payoffs DIDN'T come from the campaign means he now has trouble with his sworn federal financial disclosures.

kingfc22 08-22-2018 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman (Post 3215396)
But admitting the payoffs DIDN'T come from the campaign means he now has trouble with his sworn federal financial disclosures.


That's the problem with consistently lying about everything. Eventually they catch up to you as one thing will always lead to another.

RainMaker 08-22-2018 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lungs (Post 3215349)
I didn't see anything after the arrest. The person that gave a statement to the media (I'm assuming his brother or father?), said the killer passed e-verify.

He probably took his own profile down due to the heat they are getting, even though they didn't break the law by employing the murderer.


Yeah it was owned by a prominent GOP family. They claim they used e-verify but as you mentioned, it's garbage.

It still goes to show that neither party really wants to stop illegal immigration.

Edward64 08-22-2018 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3215404)
Yeah it was owned by a prominent GOP family. They claim they used e-verify but as you mentioned, it's garbage.

It still goes to show that neither party really wants to stop illegal immigration.


I'm pretty sure the party of Trump and a fair percentage of his 38-42% want to stop illegal immigration (and probably reduce legal too).

RainMaker 08-22-2018 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3215406)
I'm pretty sure the party of Trump and a fair percentage of his 38-42% want to stop illegal immigration (and probably reduce legal too).


Voters might but the politicians in office and their donors don't.

Edward64 08-22-2018 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3215409)
Voters might but the politicians in office and their donors don't.


Okay, I can agree with this.

molson 08-22-2018 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3215378)
I think it's still most likely that he finishes his term, declares victory, and doesn't run for reelection.


There's a legal and DOJ policy question about whether a sitting president can be indicted for a crime. If Giuliani and Trump believe he can't, then, maybe that could be motivation to run again. Then he has 4 years to figure out how to get a 3rd term

lungs 08-22-2018 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3215404)
Yeah it was owned by a prominent GOP family. They claim they used e-verify but as you mentioned, it's garbage.

It still goes to show that neither party really wants to stop illegal immigration.


Now I'm hearing that they didn't use e-verify. Regardless, e-verify sucks.

PilotMan 08-22-2018 06:13 PM

Personally, we're to the point where Congress should be calling for t-dumb's resignation. It costs nothing to call for him to resign. The R's would be much better off as a party with that outcome, than a drawn out impeachment. Frankly, there's enough here, that calls for resignation would be completely warranted.

Atocep 08-22-2018 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3215419)
Personally, we're to the point where Congress should be calling for t-dumb's resignation. It costs nothing to call for him to resign. The R's would be much better off as a party with that outcome, than a drawn out impeachment. Frankly, there's enough here, that calls for resignation would be completely warranted.


They'll wait out the mid-terms to see how they go. If those lose house you'll probably see more republicans willing to go against Trump and try to take back the party. If they lose House and Senate that's probably enough of a wake up call to get republicans on board with impeachment talks and try to reset the landscape by 2020.

Ksyrup 08-22-2018 06:39 PM

My personal horror show will be all of this coming to a head right as we skate into the holidays, so that I can look forward to separate "vacations" with my parents and in-laws, during which it will take all I have in me to not kick all of them out of the house (or go stay in a hotel) as they rant and rave about how this is a travesty and Hillary should be the one whose political career ends in disgrace, not Trump's.

For my own sanity, I hope everything blows up shortly after the ball drops in NYC.

stevew 08-22-2018 06:57 PM

The time to start calling for resignation is actually between the end of the election and the start of the new session of Congress. I mean it takes a majority of votes to approve a vice president. But I mean we probably should just wait and see who the voters want to be the vice president in 2020.

I'm basically using Mitch McConnell logic, but they should not vote on a replacement vice president if the Democrats control both houses and Trump resigns or something

Ksyrup 08-22-2018 07:31 PM

When 1st page threads collide...



Radii 08-22-2018 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 3215424)
Hillary should be the one whose political career ends in disgrace


Losing an election to this fucking lunatic is about as disgraceful an ending to a political career than one can have without ending up dead or in prison.

Thomkal 08-22-2018 10:24 PM

David Pecker, publisher of the Enquirer was subpoened and admitted that Cohen paid hush money to the two women on Trump's behalf, and Trump knew about it.

SackAttack 08-22-2018 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 3215411)
There's a legal and DOJ policy question about whether a sitting president can be indicted for a crime. If Giuliani and Trump believe he can't, then, maybe that could be motivation to run again. Then he has 4 years to figure out how to get a 3rd term


The other question is whether a sitting President can be indicted for a crime committed before he took the oath of office.

DOJ has typically taken the stance that the appropriate response for crimes in office is impeachment, followed by indictment (as appropriate) after removal from office. So that would cover the potential obstruction of justice stuff involved with his repeated attempts to depth charge the Russia investigation.

But if the investigation were to uncover crimes committed during the campaign (or earlier)? That's when the Constitutional crisis shit really hits the fan, IMO. The Trump Administration would argue that you can't impeach for crimes committed prior to his Presidency while simultaneously arguing that you can't indict a sitting President for any crimes committed, ever.

And I'm not at all certain the Congressional GOP has the stomach to take on that fight no matter HOW much smoke is coming from the barrel of that gun.

RainMaker 08-22-2018 10:55 PM

Looks like it was one holdout on those 10 charges he got off on.

Manafort juror reveals lone holdout prevented Mueller team from convicting on all counts | Fox News

bhlloy 08-22-2018 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radii (Post 3215433)
Losing an election to this fucking lunatic is about as disgraceful an ending to a political career than one can have without ending up dead or in prison.


Truth. Any kind of sane campaign or a little more humility and realism and this never would have happened.

With that being said, a Hillary presidency with Republicans controlling both houses in the current political climate probably wouldn't have been a utopia either.

Warhammer 08-23-2018 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy (Post 3215445)
Truth. Any kind of sane campaign or a little more humility and realism and this never would have happened.

With that being said, a Hillary presidency with Republicans controlling both houses in the current political climate probably wouldn't have been a utopia either.


I’ve said it before on here, there was smoke in the Hillary camp as well. Not sure if there was fire, but give; her history, I would not be surprised if there was.

I also believe that the Republican establishment is not unhappy to see things heading this way. I am very interested to see if any one contests Trump for the nomination.

All that said, if the Democrats run a center left candidate, they will win in a landslide. The problem is, they will run someone just to the right of Bernie which will make it an actual race.

Radii 08-23-2018 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer (Post 3215452)
The problem is, they will run someone just to the right of Bernie which will make it an actual race.


It doesn't matter what happens in the next 2 years, there's a race to be had. The propaganda machine that is Fox has moved JiMGa's statements like "liberals are a bigger threat to our nation than ISIS" dangerously close to the mainstream. Sprinkle in a little DNC incompetance and who knows where we end up two years from now.

The only thing I remain convinced of is that we're never going back to "normal". We're all fucked.

SirFozzie 08-23-2018 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radii (Post 3215454)
The only thing I remain convinced of is that we're never going back to "normal". We're all fucked.


That's kinda what I'm worried about, that if the left of the left has their way, they're going to say "See, the Republicans jammed the court by stealing Gorusch's seat, so we're going to add a bunch of seats to the Supreme Court, it's only fair! (since they can't REMOVE people from the Supreme Court without a supermajority, but they can sure add seats"

(Now, I'm pretty sure the Conservatives will blame it on Obama forcing through the ACA with just Dem votes, but not sure that's a good argument")

So, what we'll see is the two parties, firmly in thrall to what the other side would call "their lunatic fringe" will wildly swing between the poles, and swings will just see basically one side spending all their time undoing what the other side did and inserting their own brand of insanity.

"Illegal to Ban Gays. Medicare for All!"

versus

"Illegal to be Gay. Medicare for NONE!"

edit: I guess a better analogy would have been "JoninMiddleGA" vs "SuperLiberal Poster I can't think of right Now", but yeah, since I couldn't think of who the second was, it wouldn't work.

JPhillips 08-23-2018 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer (Post 3215452)
The problem is, they will run someone just to the right of Bernie which will make it an actual race.


Or that's what the label will be on whomever is nominated. When was the last far left Dem nominee? Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Clinton? The history of the last thirty years or so is to nominate a center left candidate.

corbes 08-23-2018 07:58 AM

Quote:

The most damaging thing that happened yesterday to Trump was not that his former lawyer alleged under oath that Trump had directed him in the commission of crimes. It was that the United States Department of Justice allowed him to enter a guilty plea whose factual basis was that Trump had directed him in the commission of a crime. That is to say that the significance of the Cohen plea is not merely that Cohen alleges that Trump had him arrange to pay hush money to a porn star and a model in a specific effort to influence the election with illegal corporate contributions. It’s that the Justice Department believes this allegation to be true and is willing to proceed criminally against Cohen on that basis. That’s ominous for both Trump personally and for his campaign. What’s more, this particular front in the war is not under Mueller, who spun it off to the U.S. attorney’s office in the Southern District of New York. This is not, in other words, a problem Trump can fire his way out of. The SDNY has a lot more than 17 prosecutors; and whether they are angry or not, Democrats or not, they are not going away.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-worse/568135/

Drake 08-23-2018 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie (Post 3215460)
"

edit: I guess a better analogy would have been "JoninMiddleGA" vs "SuperLiberal Poster I can't think of right Now", but yeah, since I couldn't think of who the second was, it wouldn't work.


If you don't know who the SuperLiberal in the room is, it's probably you. :cool:

stevew 08-23-2018 08:06 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/22/polit...ted/index.html


Just some amazing things in this Duncan Hunter indictment.

"I need shorts"
"Just buy them at a golf pro shop and will say it was golf balls that we bought to give to Wounded Warriors"

PilotMan 08-23-2018 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corbes (Post 3215480)
Who said it best: President or Mob Boss?

"This whole thing about flipping, they call it, I know all about flipping. Thirty, 40 years I have been watching flippers. Everything is wonderful and then they get 10 years in jail and they flip on whoever the next highest one is, or as high as you can go. It almost ought to be outlawed. It's not fair.

"He makes a better deal when he uses me. Like everybody else." "In all fairness to him, most people are going to do that. And I have seen it many times. I have had many friends involved in this stuff. It's called flipping and it almost ought to be illegal."



bingo

What do they do in college football when they found out that the champion team broke recruiting rules and had violations again?

If you were on the BoD for a company, and the board had 4 members, who had been appointed by the Chairman, who had been arrested and convicted on various crimes related to, but not directly associated with the company, do you think that you'd be all for letting it go and trusting the Chairmen to keep making decisions for your company?

albionmoonlight 08-23-2018 09:17 AM

FWIW, I don't think that Cohen has much on Trump that the prosecution does not already have from seizing his files.

If he did, they would not be having him and his attorney making the media circus rounds.

Also, if I am a defense lawyer (Wait, I am!), then I am SALIVATING at getting to cross-examine him. I doubt he ever testifies in Court.

(If the Dems take a house of Congress, I could see him testifying before a committee because that is more political than legal).

PilotMan 08-23-2018 09:56 AM

I have a feeling that we really only are at the tip of the iceberg too on what we think we know in regards to trump and his associates. I think there's a lot more that we're in the dark on, that will come out in time. I don't think the government really needed Cohen as a major player. They had him by the balls as it was. His guilty plea allows him to get back to his family in as short a time as they will allow. He knows full well what they have on him. The question now, is whether or not, they can pinpoint, how much trump was involved in his affairs and how much they can prove.

Marc Vaughan 08-23-2018 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer (Post 3215452)
All that said, if the Democrats run a center left candidate, they will win in a landslide. The problem is, they will run someone just to the right of Bernie which will make it an actual race.


If the Democrats run Center Left/Republican light then their base will go 'meh' ... Trumps base will be fired up by his continuous rhetoric of fear and we'll be stuck with him for another 4 years ... frankly I'm half expecting to be stuck with him regardless it amazes me but the core of his base don't seem to care about anything he does or has done so far and I don't see why that will change.

PilotMan 08-23-2018 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie (Post 3215460)
That's kinda what I'm worried about, that if the left of the left has their way, they're going to say "See, the Republicans jammed the court by stealing Gorusch's seat, so we're going to add a bunch of seats to the Supreme Court, it's only fair! (since they can't REMOVE people from the Supreme Court without a supermajority, but they can sure add seats"

(Now, I'm pretty sure the Conservatives will blame it on Obama forcing through the ACA with just Dem votes, but not sure that's a good argument")

So, what we'll see is the two parties, firmly in thrall to what the other side would call "their lunatic fringe" will wildly swing between the poles, and swings will just see basically one side spending all their time undoing what the other side did and inserting their own brand of insanity.

"Illegal to Ban Gays. Medicare for All!"

versus

"Illegal to be Gay. Medicare for NONE!"

edit: I guess a better analogy would have been "JoninMiddleGA" vs "SuperLiberal Poster I can't think of right Now", but yeah, since I couldn't think of who the second was, it wouldn't work.



It's not even so much of a SuperLiberal bounce back that is worrisome, as much as it is, anyone who is elected who isn't of your party. I mean. Take someone like Heitkamp, a D, but with broad support of the midwest, who acts more like an R a lot of the time, but with lots of crossover, and being a woman seems like she would be a valuable asset to cover all that middle ground. Even if she were elected, with all that middle ground, she would still be treated as if she were Hillary's right hand woman.

Warhammer 08-23-2018 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan (Post 3215491)
If the Democrats run Center Left/Republican light then their base will go 'meh' ... Trumps base will be fired up by his continuous rhetoric of fear and we'll be stuck with him for another 4 years ... frankly I'm half expecting to be stuck with him regardless it amazes me but the core of his base don't seem to care about anything he does or has done so far and I don't see why that will change.


Trump's base is pretty fragile. Nearly everyone that I know that voted for him is looking for another option. That said, if the democrats go hard left, they will go back to Trump if there is no other viable option.

I am not sure if another candidate can beat Trump in the primaries though. I do think Trump's base is a solid 25-30% of the electorate. I am not sure you can beat that in the primary, barring some exemplary candidate.

If we're all worried about the lurches to the left and right after elections, maybe it is better that we get some milquetoast candidates.

AlexB 08-23-2018 11:19 AM

I find it amazing that people deny things like the proven narrative here:
There were no hush payments
There were hush payments but I didn’t know about them
I did know about the payments, but they weren’t my money
I paid hush money

Whether you think it’s important or not is personal opinion, but it seems like people are denying the previous stages ever happened - that’s the scariest part to me, people are completely brainwashed.


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