Shaq!?!? are you kidding?? his FT-difficulties preclude that ever being seriously discussed. plus, he has zero range. he's absolutely zero threat if he's not in dunking-distance of the basket.

Duncan isn't GREAT from the FT-line, but at least he's decent. Shaq is atrocious.

Eh, this argument will never be solved. Kobe's stats the past couple of years, and certainly this year, were comparable to Jordan's stats. Kobe is a better shooter then Jordan was, but until Kobe starts taking better shots, he'll never shoot a high percentage from the field and from the distance. That's one of the main differences between the two; shot selection. Kobe takes (and sometimes makes) shots that Jordan would never have attempted because they were low percentage shots and didn't go in the flow of the offense. Once Jordan saw his game not translate well into titles, he remade himself over and became who he is now. I'll never buy the assist/rebound numbers because Kobe and Jordan don't play the position the same way and have different skill sets.

But to answer your question, I dont endorse the NBA making these assumptions. Kobe is a first ballot HOF right now and I'm afraid that he'll have "The Next MJ" on his plaque

Duncan certainly was the most consistent player.

I think Kobe is on his way to being the best player of the post Jordan era. Seriously. I don't particularly care for him, but I think he is the most consistently unstoppable player on the floor in any game. He's having a rough finals so far, but I think he could rebound.

Shaq was a dominate player and has taken every team he has been on to the finals. If Shaq should make FT his numbers would be down right scary and would be similar to Wilt. While Duncan is consistent I don't consider him a better player then Shaq or Kobe. In a couple years players like LeBron, Chris Paul, Derron Williams and Dwight Howard might be put in this discussion.

I think the 2nd part of that is true, but I think the Celtics are the exception to the rule about most neutral fans rooting against Boston teams. Bird and company were so much fun to watch, that I think people in my generation are likely to root for the Celtics as long as they aren't fans of the other team. It doesn't hurt that they have had a down period and haven't always been successful this last decade.

Yes and yes.

I think it is even simpler than that. By most accounts, the Celtics were the underdogs going into this series against with the Lakers. I really don't think dislike for Kobe was even factor going into the series this series. He is definitely not the most unlikeable sports figure out west. Hell he is not the most unlikeable guy in the Western Conference. Bruce Bowen anyone?

You ever read any stories about Bruce's upbringing and how he conducts himself off the court? Sure, he is a tough player who makes questionable plays on the court, but off the court, he seems like a great guy who has had a difficult upbringing. I don't see him being more disliked than Kobe by the average person.

Hmm...not sure if your serious, but I find there to be either a complete hatred or infatuation for Kobe. In New England (from what I've seen) it's far more the former than the latter. I'm not just talking about this season either, but really ever since the Shaq situation. So from my experience there's really no competition for Kobe in the most unlikeable WC guy. I could definitely see people thoroughly rooting against Kobe.

I dunno. He might compare favorably to Barry Bonds. And, um... that's all I've got.

SI

Except that as recent as last year, there were MVP chants for Kobe when he came to Boston.

My Boss is from Pennsylvania and he hates everything about the Lakers :)

I'd say the people (those with the MVP chants that is) at that game were there for Kobe and the Lakers and not for the Celtics.

Edit: As in a lot of Celtic fans weren't going to pay the ticket prices to watch the 'product' on the floor. This was seen for any big name player/team (the Lebron's, Heat, Suns, etc.)

Pierce took a team to Game 6 of the Conference Finals with Antione Walker as the only above replacement-level teammate. You can also look at what LeBron is doing with a terrible supporting cast in Cleveland.

I think Duncan/Shaq were the two dominant players the first 5 post-Jordan era and now that they're declining LeBron is going to take the mantle from Kobe. The man is an absolute force of nature.

And now once again we get a 3-day wait while the teams are in LA. How does this make sense? How do we not have the 3-day wait for travel breaks?

They don't want the games on Friday and Saturday nights.

The rest of the Celtics playoff roster in 2002 included Antoine Walker, Kenny Anderson, Rodney Rogers, Eric Williams, Tony Battie, Tony Delk, Walter McCarty, Erick Strickland, Mark Blount, Kedrick Brown.

Pierce took this group to the conference finals, led the biggest comeback in playoff history, and was two games from the NBA finals. He did it with that roster.

Who were the Stars in the east at that time?

Given the six-day lead-in they had, they could have started two days earlier and done Tu/Th - Sun/Tu/Th - Sun/Tu. The schedule they left themselves with is horrible.

Those stories were there when he was called a thug and a cheat as recently as this season. Kobe Bryant has been lauded all year long for finally growing up, being such a great teammate, being such a great leader etc. In fact, there has been a bit of a ground swell of support nationally for Kobe when they talked about the Kobe-Shaq situation. That support had only been evident in LA in previous years.

Kobe has been great for the LA community and charity work

Iverson with the Sixers, Kidd with the Nets, McGrady with the Magic, Reggie and Jermaine with Indiana, Baron Davis with the Hornets, some guy with the Wizards. Look, I'm not going to argue that the East was strong that year, but seriously look at that team. They went to the conference finals.

I've never understood why Paul Pierce got so much shit over the years.

b/c people are h8rs

:wagfingers: :D

What probably kills ya most is that two of the three I brought up were OC teams. Only one LA team in the Lakers, and they are so universal in the area, they do sorta count for the whole SoCal region, so for OC fans, my post works fine. :devil:

Actually he said on local radio a couple days ago (he shows up fairly often on his buddy Dave Damashek's show) that he was going to stay home, simply because he can't stand being in the stands surrounded by fans who aren't rooting with him. Haven't read the running diary yet, but I'll bet he wished he was there by the end. ;)

I don't think Kobe is nearly as unlikeable as people seem. I know many people who are rooting for the Lakers in this series just because they like Kobe. I'm one of them.

Heh...believe it or not, this is me as well. Lakers have always been my #2 team (despite what has transpired in this thread), and they are a distant #2 behind the Clips. The main reason the Lakers get love from me is because of Kobe.

After looking at the stats today, I think people are underselling Shaq when it comes to dominance. From 93-94 to 02-03, he never averaged less than 26.2 or 10.7. And his 3-year finals averages are utterly dominant.

2000: 38.0/16.7/2.3 61.1% FG
2001: 33.0/15.8/4.8 57.3% FG
2002: 36.3/12.3/3.8 59.5% FG

Not to discount this, because I haven't given my opinion on who is actually best post-Jordan, but why didn't you include his three other Finals appearances?

Top 10 career PER's in the post-Jordan era...

Shaquille O'Neal 27.14 (#2 all-time to Jordan)
Lebron James 25.17
Tim Duncan 25.10
Kevin Garnett 23.93
Dirk Nowitzki 23.92
Kobe Bryant 23.57
Tracy McGrady 23.38
Elton Brand 22.69
Pau Gasol 21.70
Vince Carter 21.65

Shaq led this category 5 straight times (98-02).

so you're saying garnett is better than Bryant?

Nope. I'm just posting the career PER's. I'm sure as hell not saying Dirk is better than Kobe.

The more telling part of this is Shaq winning it 5 straight years. Only Jordan (7) and Wilt (6) have had more dominant runs.

Kobe's is also down a bit because of his first couple of years. He didnt even start as a rookie and I would imagine that would lessen his overall value as far as career numbers go

I think he is a love him or hate him type of personality. I'm bored this evening so I'm looking at a bunch of articles about most disliked athletes via a google search.

GQ has him as the most hated basketball player and 5th overall. This was as voted by peers. Bonzi Wells is 7th on the list and the only other basketball player. Rasheed was on the honorable mention list. FWIW, Terrell Owens was #1 and Barry Bonds was #2.

A more recent web survey voten on by users has him also at #5 on their list and the highest basketball player. Others on the list are Ron Artest and Rasheed Wallace.

Another voter based website has him at #3 only behind Barry Bonds and A-Rod. I find it interesting that OJ is 5th on that list.

He is the highest basketball player on every list I can find. His name is brought up again and again on the web as people debate the most hated athletes. I don't think the anti-Kobe sentiment is being overestimated.

I dislike Kobe Bryant, and the Lakers in general, as a Celtics fan, but I will add that a woman who works for me with a terminally ill brother had the opportunity to meet him as part of a Make-a-Wish event and said that he was a great guy who was very nice to her brother.

Walker was probably the best sidekick that any of those other players had

Look, if the Lakers played in the OC but called themselves the Los Angeles Lakers, kinda like the Angels, or like the New York Giants of East Rutherford, you'd have a point.

Because they don't, I stand by my candy threat. Also, gas is up ten cents a gallon here since I posted that, so tread carefully. :D

*chuckles* Someone just IM'd me the following.

"The NBA announced the refs for game five are Bennett Salvatore, Joey Crawford and David Stern. The NBA announced they would announce the refs for game six when if the Lakers win."

Looks like game 4, hopefully the Lakers won't choke this one away.

Man, what could have been...

ESPN had an article on the Top Finals PERS and they were handy. A quick look at his stats didn't show any way to break down other playoff stats (I suppose basketball-reference.com or something would have them.)

NBA and its remaining fans who don't think it's rigged must love that ESPN had Dick Bavetta being a Game 5 ref on its front page. They just can't get out of their own way. Just stop assigning the refs everybody is suspicious of to the important games please.

Garnett is so damn effective when he is going AT the basket rather than fading away from it. Problem is that most possessions you wouldn't know it.

Pierce just slicing up the Laker's D (prob. could have been a few more calls on those drives too).

I love how careful Tony Allen was coming down after that dunk. Heh.

I'd actually like to see the Celtics put Scalabrine in, if only for one possession just as a motivational factor.

Lakers are collapsing again

15-0 run by the Celtics.

The Lakers refusal to play any kind of defense will be their up doing. My roommate just made mention the fact that Bynum is not their someone who I had totally forgot about. Boy oh boy did they miss him this series.

What the hell is with Gasol? He didn't even look like he was trying to catch that pass.

Also, I think Paul Pierce just might steal Finals MVP from Ray Allen.

Gasol sucks.

Kobe needs to be more aggressive and enforce his will on the game. All of this team leader motivator crap needs to stop.