Giving up on testing might make sense, but it is a bad sign for what is to come and should have never gotten to a point where giving up one of the only ways to keep ahead of the spread makes sense.

Everybody betting on quick 'herd immunity' should really think twice about what that would mean. A lot of younger folks still need treatment (but are more likely to survive) and if you even get 25% Infected before medication is available it will result in apocalyptic numbers.

Giving up testing right now, as a means to attempt to control the spread, and just admitting that it's got you, is like quitting a game in the bottom of the 2nd inning when you gave up 10 in a game you knew you needed to win. Everything after is just damage control.

My local liquor store was as full as I've ever seen it.

When damage control is all that's left, and trying to futilely contain the spread will make damage control worse .... IMO that's what you do. *shrug*

Uh oh, DeWine has brought the "A" word into this.

Ohio told providers to stop abortions due to the coronavirus pandemic - Vox

here's the order

https://wbns-cdn.s3.us-east-2.amazon...Home-Order.pdf

geez it's like everything is still open really.
i'm surprised they are still allowing churches to be open..,.and weddings. That's probably a big reason italy got hammered so hard.

I know the guy personally, and I assure you that he's not interested in making the numbers look better. He'd love to stick it to the right, but he's a doctor before all else. It appears that he (and others) are saying "look, it is what it is. We didn't test early enough because we didn't have the tests and we'll never catch up. That horse has left the barn. The best thing we can do NOW is keep people who are sick at home if they don't need a doctor."

Churches around here, and at least in many spots throughout the state, have had the good sense to go to internet broadcasting their services. Most of them never did that before and didn't know how at first. So what I'm seeing is good judgment from them on that aspect.

You're not wrong, it just sucks when you knew you had a chance and needed to pull your shit together and this was the result.

Definitely agreed.

The thing about lack of testing that comes into play is that if the only people who are getting counted are those with symptoms severe enough to get tested and possibly be admitted to the hospital does that:

1) continue to give people in the U.S. a false sense of how wide spread this is and how bad it could get?

2) without a sense of how widespread it is how do we escape the status quo and be able to make decisions on when it is safe to go about normal life again?

I don't disagree with this.


On churches...


1. The government shouldn't tell houses of worship that they MUST close. The last we need now is a constitutional distraction over that.
2. If you run a house of worship, you absolutely should close it voluntarily. If you don't, you're being a terrible neighbor.

I've been thinking about this. We are just trying to flatten the curve after all. If EVERYONE stayed home they'd just all get the virus whenever they finally leave the house. Or they're just waiting out a vaccine that might be available to them in 18-24 months.

People seem so anxious about the concept of anyone else being outside, but, that is kind of required to get to a herd immunity state where the impact of the virus on society is lessened. I guess the idea is that if the government says, "everybody has to stay home or we're all going to die!", they are understanding that that's the best way to get at least many people to stay home and flatten the curve. But the people who are out and about now, by necessity or choice, are going to lessen the long-term impact, even as they make the shorter-term impact more profound.

But I really wonder what the initiatives and policy will be like to bring society back online. It can't be total eradication of the virus, that may never happen. There has to be a point where more and more people are willing to take risks, or know or assume that they've already been exposed. But how willing are Americans going to be to leave their houses after months, or years, of the government telling them that they'll die if they do?

I guess it would be similar to the gradual opening of things that China is doing now. But they have the ability to direct those things in stages as a police state.

It's going to be very weird socially when more and more people re-enter society but everybody has a different idea about when that's appropriate to do. The social judgment and tension is going to be exhausting. But that will be the next challenge for the country. Getting people to get out and participate in the economy even if it's not perfectly safe to do so.

We're basically going to be two weeks behind for the duration of this thing.

We should have had tests two weeks ago, and we are just ramping up on them now.

I was one of the people saying "more tests, more tests" in the last few weeks. I should have been calling for ventilators and ICU beds at that point. By the time you realize you need more tests, it is too late.

By the time you realize you need 10,000 more ICU beds, it is too late.

What are you going to do for funerals?

A guy at my work just had his mother die last week. How should the funeral be handled?

The articles I've read have also suggested that this will be a multi-stage process. Like we do extreme social distancing for 5 months and then "normal" contact is allowed for a month before another 4-5 months of social distancing and then 2 months of "normal", and so on.

Looks like this thing is growing quicker in the U.S. than anywhere. Most recorded new cases in the world in the last 24 hours.

1. U.S. 8148
2. Italy 5560
3. Spain 3180

Hope that is just a blip. That is a crazy acceleration over the last few days.

I think we follow the death rate and overcrowding at hospitals along with whatever temporary converted structures like hotels, arenas, etc. we end up using for that purpose as well. When people stop dying in obscene numbers from it and we have the luxury of doing elective surgeries again, that's the indicator I'd look at.

I was going to ask how some of you are going to deal with the closing of the barber shops.

Sounds like a blast!

I'm going to start looking into some moon real estate.

Those are darned good questions, but again, I suspect that we're past the point of being able to collect data that would be useful. On the first question, we have no way of knowing how many had a mild case and recovered already. My daughter (age 10, athlete, very healthy) missed 3 days of school in mid-February with a fever, cough, and mild respiratory distress, and tested negative for both strep and influenza. My wife, other daughter, and I then subsequently had milder versions of what seemed to be the same thing. Have the four of us already had it and thus have immunity? No way to know. On February 24th, a friend from my home town posted this on FB: He died of "complications from bronchitis" on Feb. 26th. He was 45. Did he have it? We'll never know.

Here is one example of the awkwardness.

Japanese basketball league briefly returns, shuts back down - ProBasketballTalk | NBC Sports

Just got a call from my boss. My hours are being cut, but not to the point I lose benefits. The same may not be said of my coworker from Sri Lanka. He may be let go in a week...partly because of business, partly because his work visa is also set to expire. Dude just had a baby. I feel horrible.

By the way, with the being immune after getting it thing … anyone have a source on that? I've read a couple things where people got it multiple times, so I'm not confident that's even a thing.

Medication will be key and in 4 weeks we will know if any of the 'repurposed' medications is effective. (already Approved medication developed for other illnesses. For example against Ebola, Malaria or certain flu strains)
There are dozens of studies being done right now.

And a vaccine is likely in 9-12 months.

Just letting it 'run through' the population is no option, even with restrictions now it will bring the healthcare systems everywhere to a breaking point. Hence trying to slow it to a point where you can get ahead of it again and identify a decent percentage of the sick before they have severe symptoms.
Which will be easier as there will be less flu patients (which also frees up space in hospitals).

Basically you need to get to a point where more people recover than get sick so that the healty system can recover, then you can think about what do 'bring online' again. I am just sceptical this will happen for the US before May after the botched start.

I got it from this article:

The Doctor Who Helped Defeat Smallpox Explains What's Coming | WIRED


and that article links to this one:

Did a Woman Get Coronavirus Twice? Scientists Are Skeptical | WIRED

Yep, this makes a ton of sense to me. We've already fallen far behind on the opportunity for something like a federal order to mobilize industry to pump out masks and ventilators, I assume that'll happen once the numbers start to show that it should have been done 2 weeks ago, like albionmoonlight said earlier, but yeah as far as getting a sense of where we stand, this is the way.

I've not been able to find that specific Q&A from CDC vs others less official sources.

However, CDC did say if you were sick/quarantine and you were released after 2 consecutive negative test, you won't be able to infect others. This implies you have built up some immunity (which makes sense to me).

One thing that makes this strategy of quitting tests dangerous: the severe cases don't start that way but with the same mild/moderate symptoms as everybody else. Meaning without testing and monitoring you miss the point where they get worse and get them onto ventilators too late.
This is pretty much what happened in Italy where suddenly hundreds of essentially already severely ill people turned up at hospitals and once they exceeded capacity the death Rates went off the rails. Because there is no medication all you can do is keep the lungs working, give medicine against complications and hope for the best.

This 'herd immunity' strategy is not an option. You need to keep the spread as low as you can until medication arrives, by then there also should be a tentative guess as to how long a vaccine takes.

This article is three days old, so it's practically already out of date, but it was informative & somewhat reassuring for me, FWIW.

I'm already seeing local funeral homes "encouraged" (you might say "strongarmed" since local Marshals were dispatched to have the "conversation") to shut down completely aside from performing the necessary preparations & either burying with restricted attendance or cremation.

I think that sort of answers the question you're asking since mortuaries et al have more control over services than churches in most places (they have custody of the body, by law, at least in Georgia)

Oh that's a terrible and tragic story Ben.



A friend of mine from High School had Ehlers-Danlos disorder and got sick the second week of Feb. We to the urgent care on Wednesday, back in the hospital Saturday, gone Sunday. Final diagnosis was H1N1, but it's hard to know if that's an honest diagnosis given what we know now.

I spoke to my mother today and they had moved all the patients in the nursing home to another building. My mom had no idea why, and I didn't want to panic her.

But, me, I'm a little freaked out right now.

In Spain you are not allowed now to bury your family if they die, they just get incinerated, no funeral at all allowed. Imagine the pain.

Interesting read from Newsweek about implementation of "continuity of government" plans in the event that large segments of the executive, legislative and judicial branches are incapacitated.

Exclusive: Inside The Military's Top Secret Plans If Coronavirus Cripples the Government

Coronavirus task force briefing starting (some what delayed). No Fauci and Birx. Trump, Pence and FEMA guy ... don't think this will be very informative.

Apparently the St Louis Fed Chair head thinks we could be heading for thirty percent unemployment in Q2. That would be 5% higher then the Great Depression.

THIS. 1000% THIS!

I will say I don't think I'd have a problem traveling by car, especially as the containment fight looks to be lost everywhere in the US, so it's not like you'll be a Patient 31 unless you start hanging out in nursing homes.

Coincidentally enough with some people talking about cancelling or postponing trips to Charleston or Myrtle Beach, I've floated the idea to co-workers of VRBO'ing a house there for a few nights if this extends more than a month under the theory that there will be extremely cheap deals, we're already spending 40-50 hours a week in close proximity, and if we avoid other people you can still spend time with each other or at a beach without increasing anyone's risk.
No, they didn't. They reprimanded doctors, destroyed samples, denied human to human transmission was occurring, and didn't implement any sort of lockdown until after the Lunar New Year. Early Timeline

Now they're pushing a narrative that says the opposite & apparently many people are happy to eat it up Propaganda push

No question we were slow on the uptake & Trump hurt us, no question he's being an unnecessarily petulant idiot calling it the Chinese Flu, no question South Korea, many other small Asian countries, and yes even China that were hit hard by H1N1, SARS or MERS had better protocols in place & more experience implementing them once they took it seriously. There's also no question that China did a really poor job early on - and just like Trump - was more concerned with PR than preventing an epidemic.
I tried to check numbers yesterday & it appears the CDC only releases their daily report Monday-Friday... That should probably be upped to 7 days a week, though I suppose it doesn't actually matter nearly as much as other things they could be working on.

Some friends of mine from Tucker posted today about their mother/grandmother having died last night. She was 92. She was in hospice and they were unable to visit her during her last week. They're a close family with five kids, all in their 30s. Yesterday they had a "social distance" birthday party for the youngest. (Lawn chairs in the front yard of the parents' house. Well spread out.) The mom and dad and are in their late 60s. I don't know what they'll do about a funeral.


As for wedding, I've seen various stuff. One couple I know who was planning to have a big wedding yesterday just did justice of the peace instead. Another (my nephew and his bride-to-be) postponed the wedding indefinitely.

All McDonalds closing after 7pm tomorrow evening here. Completely closing, not operating a takeout service or Drive Thru only, but closing.

We had decent weather here this weekend, and people mass gathered at seaside towns, parks, sports pitches, etc. Mind blown...

Dola, for the nth time this week

If Taco Bell goes then I'm done for.

I think we need more officials like these mayors and regional presidents from Italy.

🌈 on Twitter: ""I stopped him and said, 'Look, this isn't a movie. You are not Will Smith in I Am Legend. Go home."
This is the updated compilation of Italian Mayors losing it at people violating #Covid19 quarantine. Yes, subtitles are accurate.… https://t.co/quU2toD1be"

Wow.

Ehh, I get yelling at people who are still gathering in groups, but I don't know how much walking a couple hundred yards across an empty area & talking up close to two people playing ping-pong to tell them to avoid people is helping. Also not sure why someone going for a run with their dog is a bad thing - I've heard Dr. Fauci specifically say that is perfectly fine.

Yes, they've also said walks (or even bike rides) are a great way to exercise here in AZ with the gyms closing. As long as you keep your 6-feet of distance around others, it appears one of the best things you can do to get out of the house.

I think they were saying they were using the dog walks as an excuse to hang out with other people. The hairdresser one was funny.

CFA for me. Unfortunately, I think many fast food places will follow suit.

I might have to get a Big Mac tomorrow.

Yeah, after 61 governments since the end of WW2, Italy finally has it right!

:(


i'm getting angry abuot reading all these stories of people testing positive.
especially famous people

when they also keep saying they are limiting testing

I'm pretty sure most of em are jerks or Lega Nord types, but man, they don't mess around do they? :) (actually, going to stop that line, this is supposed to be non-political)

My frustration is that if all we have to guide us are the worst possible outcomes (hospitalization or death) it is just going to lead to continued fear. Everyone has different tolerances for risk they are willing to take in their life. Some people are willing to bungee jump while others will "nope nope nope" away because there is always a chance of the worst possible outcome.

What does the death and hospitalization rate need to look like at each of the following levels before one should feel comfortable going about daily life?

a) the world
b) your country
c) your state
d) your county
e) your city
f) your workplace

Throw personal circumstances into the mix on top of all that (age, health issues, financial strain, etc...) and mix it with the need to maintain the collective good to make it more difficult.

My answer - no clue yet. I am just a nerd who plays simulation games and is trying to keep his family safe. But as a point of reference my county has a population of about 600,000 people and as of today has 108 confirmed cases. The state is currently on lockdown. When you step back and look at those numbers is there any wonder that many people are going to treat this like the flu and try to go about their daily life like nothing has changed? (I am not one of them, for the record)

The only thing I know for certain is that I tend to be cautious about these types of things and am not a big risk taker. I remember reading this comic strip as a kid and something about the final part of it always stuck with me:

Calvin and Hobbes by Bill Watterson for May 02, 1989 - GoComics

This would help a lot.

Korea finished developing the 10 minute Covid-19 diagnostic kit and is now ramping up production. They plan to export 300.000 test-kits per week - pic.twitter.com/DpJCph9RT7

— Florian Witulski (@vaitor) March 21, 2020

Bed, Bath and Beyond stores are closing from tomorrow through April 3. I expect some other “home goods” stores will follow suit

Not sure I understand Australia's approach. Shutting down except for essential businesses and ... schools.

Coronavirus: Australia to close pubs, cafes and places of worship - BBC News

I get what you're saying here but from my perspective it basically boils down to missing the forest for the trees. Fear is natural in a situation like this, and on its own I'd say it's healthy and even useful. At a certain point, when public health officials are speaking with a virtually unanimous voice on something and advocating measures that would have been considered extreme in the past, I think there's basically a choice to either accept what they say, or to not to do so.

In terms of being comfortable in daily life - I don't see that happening until a vaccine is widely available. I'd give you a softer answer if I could, but I think that's where we are. I expect this to be a defining experience for most who live through it. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that since the Greatest Generation lived through the Great Depression and World War II, there will not have been any singular collective experience that changed the world more. I don't think it ever goes back to quite the way it was, and I don't know how exactly things will change because I don't know how bad things will get or for how long. I don't think anybody does.

It's a lot of uncertainty for sure, and that's scary. But I think it's far better than the alternative of trying to keep on top of something we have no chance of actually keeping on top of, and costing more lives in the process. I totally understand how others would come to different conclusions.

Yup I agree. Before now I would have said 9/11 or GR but pretty sure those will pale in comparison to what we have experienced and whats to come.


I predict people will stock up on more toilet paper, hand sanitizers and n95 masks for the foreseeable future.

My mom's being moved into hospice care this week. She has stage 4 pancreatic cancer and it has totally surrounded her liver. Her eating has reduced dramatically and it is now a major thing to get her out of bed to go to the washroom. So we likely only have weeks to go.

I"m even worried about visiting her in hospice care. I'm from Toronto, and in her town, they probably perceive all of us as having the virus. Their town only has 3 cases to date. So I could see them not letting me into the place to visit.

She was a teacher in a small town and really affected the lives of a lot of people so it would have been a big funeral. However I don't think they can have a public funeral. Maybe something small for direct family only. She deserves more than that, but funerals are for the living, and we have to take into consideration the health of us.

As I said to my dad earlier today, the coronavirus is one thing. My mom's deteriorating health is another. And the stress from both is definitely more than the sum of the individual parts.

I'm very sorry to hear. I can't imagine what you and dad are going through. Best wishes, seriously.

From what I can tell, the Australian school year just started in late January. I guessing that and giving the parents an option of keeping their children at home gives him coverage. I just don't know how much of an option that really is for the parents.

Brian Swartz, an you please cute your source on warm weather not affecting this thing?

The Latest: China says all 39 new cases from overseas - Houston Chronicle



I will eat my house, brick-by-brick, if that is factually correct. Even if they did everything right, there would still be some cases that slip through the cracks, especially this close to when the quarantine was. It's just not statistically possible. Unless, of course, they were going to do the same bs like we're doing where it's impossible to get a test. Even after getting a national testing apparatus up and running a couple of months ago.

SI

I don't think you give up on testing. It's still really important to know if you have it and whether you should isolate yourself. If Rand Paul didn't have access to a test, he'd be out infecting countless people right now.

Another factor is knowing you have it and recovering. You now have antibodies and may become real valuable to society.

Oof, that's so hard. My condolences to you and your dad. I hope you guys get as much quality time with your mom as you can.

I've heard mixed things on this, and I don't remember exactly where I read it - I've seen multiple sources on both sides. I think the real answer is frankly we don't know. But the idea that it doesn't is based on what we are seeing right now in warm-weather climates. I.e., Singapore and Australia are two good examples, China to a lesser extent. It averages about 65 F in China in December and the thing had no problem spreading. It's in the 70s right now in Australia, and still bad enough there with over a thousand cases that they are shutting stuff down.

It may well be that it's warm enough in the peak of summer (i.e. 80s and 90s) to make a significant difference. I do think these observations give reason to think it's not as vulnerable to heat though as your average flu is.

I agree that this is still important. I just think we can't afford to do it with the PPE shortage, because I don't think knowing more about who has it is worth increased danger to medical professionals and the critically ill when the virus has no chance of being contained.

Those observations don't tell you much without some kind of data comparison on how those locations would have fared if they were more humid, and warmer.

MIT researches (and others) thinks it spreads more slowly in warmer temperatures, in more humid air. Even within China, for example, more humid cities with higher temperatures saw a slower rate of infection than drier cities with lower temperatures.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/h...ronavirus.html

It's been nice here for the past week or so, but we are about to head into some extended springtime rains. I'm not concerned about the effect on the virus so much as my mood.

Jesus man. I’m sorry to hear.

Anyone know how Canada's response was during all this with testing and containment and such?

Oh wow. Italy has apparently told their doctors that if you're 60 or greater, you don't get a respirator (there are just none available)

Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60 - The Jerusalem Post

and the US is right near or above the Italian trend right?

Canada is at 1470 cases and 20 deaths, so good but not great (38 million people in the country for what its worth).

Prevention wise, it seems we are synched up quite a bit with America. The caveat to this however is that COVID-19 really took longer to get here. So we are implementing similar steps to the USA at the same time but we are ahead (behind?) in the curve.

I think the neighbouring relationship really helped. Once the NBA shutdown, the NHL followed suit. That forced the country to pay attention (not a joke) even though the cases and spread were minimal at that point. After the NHL shutdown, all the junior and minor leagues immediately announced they were also shutting down.

Schools in most provinces are shut down for at least a few weeks, most businesses are shut down or work from home and there's a really big push on social distancing.

The international border is essentially closed and international flights are restricted to four cities and basically comprised of incoming ex-pats. Every province is in a state of emergency, including where I live (which has about 20 cases in a 1.4 million population).

There also doesn't seem to be the same scarcity regarding testing.

Like I said, I think having the benefit of the neighbouring relationship with America but not getting hit by COVID-19 at the same time has helped us be where we are at. Otherwise I feel as if we would be closer to where America is some countries in Europe are at right now.

That's a good point. Hope this pans out and the US/Europe/whoever else can get some good respite for study and treatment improvements. I have also read that coronaviruses in general do tend to be more resistant, but SARS waned in the summer months even so. One of the rare times we can be thankful for global warming.

That is both chilling and entirely expected on the respirator age limit. It's really hard to know honestly in terms of the trend. We aren't seeing nearly as many deaths and with the testing still being limited … but in terms of how the hospitals are filling up, I think we're on a slower but similar path. Can't prove it though.

*sigh* so many unknowns.

Jason Altmire on Twitter: "Florida still not taking #COVID19 quarantine seriously. Beach goers flocking to Ponte Vedra Beach today. #Floridalockdown… https://t.co/BgAc9ijfAS"

One can only hope it slows down by itself ...

Neil Diamond playing modified Sweet Caroline.

Made me chuckle some. Some humor needed these days.

Neil Diamond Gives 'Sweet Caroline' A Less-Touchy Makeover For Coronavirus | HuffPost

Is the UK still doing the herd mentality or not? This is a pretty good way to infect the herd.

Coronavirus: Tube drivers 'furious' at crowded carriages - BBC News

Sorry the graph is this size, but I thought it was an interesting one.

Mayor of NYC was just interviewed and said massive gouging with regards to PPE. Said he spoke with the POTUS and VP and begged them to put some sort of system in place where those that need the equipment most get it. Said that they thought they had tens of millions of masks secured just to be outbid by another state/government. Also said NYC has enough ventilators to make it through the week then people will start dying who shouldn't.

The USA today article on Appalachia was spot on. Between loss of income, rampant drug use and addiction, lack of infrastructure, and now this, they are going to be much higher than typical mortality rates in these small communities.

I heard yesterday that our company had purchased 5 million single use sani-wipes, which we use all the time, and regularly have for cleaning in the cockpit and service areas, only to have the government seize them for someone else. They were able to get some small bottles of sanitizer, but you can't wipe stuff down with that.

I agree with most everything here, especially with respect to the NHL shutdown being the eye-opener for the majority of Canadians. However I feel like Ontario (Toronto) and BC (Vancouver) are in a bit rougher shape than this lets on. They are large, international hubs and got hit earlier than the rest of the country and it's showing.



I do think that our nationwide response since the NHL shutdown has been pretty solid. Our province (Manitoba) feels like it's a bit slow to react comparatively, but so far it hasn't had a hugely obvious negative impact so perhaps the response has been adequate enough.


I think the next major domino to fall will be closing of provincial borders, which will be annoying if this extends into May and beyond because my cottage is on the other side of the Manitoba/Ontario border and that would otherwise be a great place to go socially distance.

Michigan is finally going to go on lock down today. The governor was ahead of the curve when it came to certain things - like closing all schools - but she was really dragging on the "shelter in place" order. It's long overdue based on the number of cases we have.

I have taken vacations with the sole intent of living a "shelter in place" lifestyle, so I'll be fine.

I haven't seen this graphic before - scroll down to the end and there's a dynamic chart showing confirmed cases on a cumulative daily basis.

The late run in the US is startling, and hopefully just because they are testing a lot more...

Coronavirus symptoms: What are they and how do I protect myself? - BBC News

First world problem possibly...

So our first grader's school was closed and the school district is going to teach virtually. Kudos to them, my wife and I fully expect to do the best we can with it.

We just go an email today about our twin boys who are both in pre-school in the same district. They apparently are going to try to go virtual as well. Ummm... I know we are all in this together but we pay for two things really socialization and daycare, we don't expect much academically nor do they get a whole lot academically out of it. Am I wrong to think we should not be expected to pay for April and May for "virtual learning" for 5 year olds?

@JAG : Does this take into consideration some sort of 'minimum occupancy' if you manage to move everybody you reasonably can ? Because other patients still need ICU beds as well.

Just read a report where the Lombardy had 640 ICU beds before this started and now 'more than 900' (remember there are limits due to space constraints as well, not just getting the equipment. You need way more Square Feet per bed). Which, again, is not the true number available for Covid19 even if you clear as much as possible you will need a decent percentage for other patients and those will be in different buildings/wings from Covid 19 patients, too. So can't swap around at will.

The last 4 days you had about 450-550 patients dying in Lombardy every day and average time from hospitalization to death is 4 days and longer for recovery. So best guess there are likely 3-4 times more patients in need of an ICU bed than available. That is just utter insanity.

Friend of mine works in an ICU and he is basically at the edge already simply knowing what might happen ...

https://www.esahq.org/esa-news/analy...hesiology-esa/

@whomario - I don’t know as it is not my graph. I would assume it is a very rough estimate in any event.

You combine late testing with a population that 6-7 times the population of Spain, and we are going to have higher numbers.

Its a spiral. If you don't pay, they can't pay their employees and bills. Not telling you what to do, but I'm trying to continue paying things short term at least. Obviously would change if I lost my job.

Yeah that's the internal debate I am having. I mean if this were a couple hundred bucks it would be a no-brainer but we are talking appox 3K over the two months. We aren't hurting right now exactly but we are definitely in the red just during normal times due to the large preschool payment. They haven't sent a bill yet for April so maybe they will have some sort of reasonable compromise anyways.

That is insane. I am far from a developmental learning specialist, but zero chance kids that age are able to garnish anything other than extreme frustration from that experience.

My almost 10 year old had an epic meltdown this morning and my almost 7 year old is struggling to stay in one place. Not a chance 5 year olds can handle it.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the only reason they are doing it is to try to continue to get payments. Like if a daycare closed there is no chance they get any money right? Not saying their teacher is at fault or her heart isn't in the right place but it has to be a money grab.

I don't think you are wrong at all.

I was wondering about this the other day. When does it become OK to ask for refunds for things such as gym memberships, etc...

It totally is. The problem is if daycares by you are similar to many other places in the country there is a long wait to get into one, so if you cancel now you could be screwed. They know they have everyone over a barrel.

Will they be starting kindergarten next year? good chance they won't even be going back anyway if they are.

Got an e-mail from Georgia State University today that they will be refunding people for student fees that went towards things that are now closed, such as activity fees, parking passes, or meal plans.

Yes kindergarten next year. I figure we did pay them for March and totally understandable that nobody saw anything happening this quickly and would never expect a refund. Mine is for April and May which I am 99.9% certain will not happen.

Thought maybe the webpage from which you took it said sth about it, i kinda figured you didn't whip it up for the heck of it :D

I think its just a decision everyone has to make with the context of their own situation.

My gym is a small one that just opened in September and have been very supportive of me during the past few months. As long as I can afford, I will continue to pay as I want them to survive as well as pay their bills in the meantime. For their part, they are posting at home exercise programs daily.