of course but I think, if we agree that theyre going after the Pro Hillary contingent, having the present crowd boo isn't going to help the cause, you get that, right?

The experience part doesn't bother me much as I don't think there's a lot of relevant experience for being the President, although it really should close the door on all Obama experience criticism. My problem is that she doesn't seem to know about much. The audio from the Time interview a couple of weeks ago is painful.

Sorry it came from a housing blog, via Washington Post, let me supply the link. 1 min.

Here is the link to what I posted.

A Decade of Slow Growth: Why the United States will Face a Decade of Economic Stagnation and Face a L Shaped Recession. 10 Charts and Pictures as to Why This will Occur. » Dr. Housing Bubble Blog

And the Washington Post link http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060900950.html

cool dangarion - thanks!

I think it might be funny if/or when the republicans lose, they come out and say democrats are a bunch of sexist pigs since they didnt want a woman in the office.....

You boys sure are thin-skinned about your guy's name...

At least I didn't pull a Teddy Kennedy...

YouTube - Ted Kennedy calling Barak Obama, Osama Bin Laden.Funny!!!

McCain selecting Palin as his VP, pretty much guaranted I'll be voting democrat for the first time in my life. I've always been libertarian or republican.

I can not honestly vote for anyone that knows they are going to have a baby with down syndrome and don't abort it. That is not logical or sound judgement and pretty much lets me know you don't get it.

No thanks. I need rational and logical people in office.

Next point. This baby is five months old now or something like that. What kind of mother is she going to be to a newborn, flying around the country all the time. Some kind of shitty family values if you ask me.

BOO Palin, Boo this choice. Go obama.

Listen, asshole, go back to your fellow misanthropes, okay? I'm sure you can sit together and reminisce how things were better back in the day.

And the idea that I'm voting for Obama is amusing, to say the least. I like McCain and think he's a good guy, and easily my choice for the GOP nominee (though I liked Guliani, and pre-batshit crazy Mitt Romney).

Let me pull a Flasch....yeah right, you're not voting for Obama. :rolleyes:

are you sure youre not Bubba Wheels and just made a new forum name after being banned?

what's the over/under for how long till SFL Cat gets banned for trolling/general asshattery?

Thought I was on *ignore*

i wont ignore anyone, not even the guy who hates me, Duckman, because, Like Obama says it's best to engage with your enemy as well as your friends ;)

I don't really know who you are, and I'm not tied down enough to one party to really feel strongly enough to argue for or against someone, however I don't recall seeing a single one of your posts add really anything constructive to this conversation.

In fact the majority of your posts seem to be striving to either try to infuriate others (such as a troll would do), or you just are outright racist in reality. As I don't know you, I won't judge.. but if your intention is to try to steer this thread away from any kind of reasonable debate on the politicians or their suggested policies, you are doing so very well.

Perhaps you should cool it off, or take a break from this thread before you find yourself boxed for ridiculous trolling. There are others whom are doing your "side" of the discussion a far better service with actual intelligent discussion such as Arles or others.

My mother feels the same way about Palin fwiw, also mentioning that her second youngest is four or five years old.

There are plenty of reasons not to like the Palin pick, but questioning her ability to mother seems way out of line IMO. Women all over the country balance work and motherhood. She seems to be a very concerned mother and I'm sure between her husband and th rest of the family arrangements can be made. I'd really hate to think in this day and age we're going to disqualify women with young children.

Agreed 100%. Which is why I was worried when Kaine was being tossed around as a VP.


True, although this time I don't think it would be due to poor organization and a poor campaign (2000/2004) or poor candidates (1984/1988), but due to parts of the Democratic "big tent" not seeing the forest for the trees.

I know it's been beaten to death, but the case in point is any pro-choice Clinton supporter who doesn't vote or votes for McCain. Registering disappointment is fine, but if McCain wins, with both Palin as VP and the current state of the Supreme Court (with impending retirements), Roe v. Wade is done and we might even see it go the other way with a federal ban on a women's right to chose.


Same here. Well, $12 anyway. :eek:

+1

I'm going to do as you suggest. Frankly, being called a racist would bother me, but only if that comes from someone who doesn't automatically pull out the flame-thrower whenever I post someting. Coming from the usual suspects like Flash, flere, or John Galt, frankly, I don't really give much of a shit about what they think of me or my opinions just as I'm sure they don't give much of a shit about what I think. But since you aren't part of that group, and seem generally to be a civil poster, I'll bow to your judgement and apologize for any offense I've caused. Out for a while.

I do legitimately feel bad for the GOP with the hurricane causing a major hiccup in their plans. Ive read that they may turn the convention into a telethon to raise money for the after effects of Gustav BUT that certainly isn't what the ENC had in mind and I dont know how it will play out or if its even fair to judge or grade, etc. Also Ive heard that the convention may be delayed as views on TV of a festival aired in contrast with the devastation, destruction, and despair in the Gulfcoast would probably not be good...I would hope the Dems would not take advantage of the situation via commentary or TV ads. This is not a fair situation for the GOP to find themselves in and I hope they handle it with the utmost care for everyone involved and effected without any politicalization from either side.

Does she breast feed? Any woman who doesn't breast feed is selfish, unless there is a medical reason not to (which is very rare). It is a proven fact that it is healthier for breast fed children for both their immune system and intellengence.

No matter how much, I would love to be a "mother" to my newborn I simply can't do it. It is a fact that newborns know the smells of their mother and need the touch and feel of their mothers.

I have to admit, I can't understand why people have children, to let somebody who makes 10 bucks an hour to raise them. I look at all these daycares and I'm like WTF, why even have kids.

One of the reasons that USA is going to shit, is two working parents. I'll even give a bit and say one parent should be home (i would still prefer it the mom), but one parent needs to be home with a developing child.

I've never seen it broken down like this. Looks like I would have been pretty much even under either one.

Explain your +1? You honestly think that working as an administrative assistant or manager at a company can compare to flying all over the country? Give me a break.

Wow... I think that is all I can say to this. My brother has cerebral palsy and I am glad he is around. He can also function without the help of others, has a wife and kids, etc. How can we know what the resulting life of a child is going to be if we do not give them a chance at life?

I can understand going the other route, but to basically call her decision not logical? To me, if she was staunchly pro-life and then changed her mind when she learned her baby has down's is the height of hypocrisy. Kudos to her for actually living her creed.

Agreed...however, because of our country's lifestyle choices, it will never be the majority of homes with kids being like this.

For one, what if the child can't figure it out? We had one that did and one that didn't do it. Quite honestly they are not far apart in any way. I would actually place the one that breastfed behind the one that didn't. But that is primarily because he didn't need to develop language skills because his brother took care of everything for him.



Maybe because accidents happen? My wife and I had a 3 year plan for having kids. Instead, she was pregnant within two months of us being married. That said, how is daycare any different than a child going to school? Heck, after staying home with my 3 year old for 6 months while out of work, he probably gets more instruction at daycare, simply because there is much more structure there during the day. With me doing chores, cooking, picking up and dropping off the 6 year old, there was not much time for any sort of teaching my youngest.

All that said, I would prefer that my wife be able to stay at home, but unfortunately, we are not able to do that.

I'm not really a fan of having a holier-than-thou attitude when criticizing other people's parenting choices. Some may be better than others, but I don't think it's anybody's right to decide what is best for me and my children, and if someone for example tried to come up to my (as yet hypothetical) wife and tell her she was doing a disservice by not breastfeeding my (hypothetical) child, I'd have some very colorful language telling them what they could do in response.

Just curious, but would you have this problem if Mr. Palin was running for VP? Or is just because the mother is running?

There are many families in america where the father is atleast 50-50 (if not more responsible for the kids) now days. I will be interested to here from all the Obama supporters on how the woman's role is in the kitchen and home with the baby. I mean, there's no way the husband could pick up any slack while both him and the baby travel with Gov Palin - right? Plus, I would say Palin has shown some pretty solid family values by raising the other four kids.

Plus, according to three different articles she is still breastfeeding and a very active mom. It just involves good time management. In fact, I would bet that being a VP candidate with the additional resources means she spends more time with her child than most working "administrative assistants" do. Her husband is also extremely involved. But, maybe she should just go back to the kitchen in Alaska and know her role in society.

I agree. My wife and I haven't been blessed with a child yet, but when we do the last thing that would ever be on my mind would be aborting....no lets be frank...killing the kid. I'm all about pro-choice, believe me because to each their own, but I applaud her and her husband. That's a real testament to family strength and values.

Again, I think abortion rights and the choice that lies therein is a personal issue within a family and has nothing to do with anyone outside of that family and shouldnt be judged....hence my abortion rights stance vs. those that are Anti-abortion rights. Palin's choice is not to be commended and someone who exercises their right to end a pregnancy is not to be commended either or looked down upon and vice versa....it doesnt belong to anyone to judge as good or bad, IMO.

That's life, IMO. Looking out for the people in Louisiana should be everyone's number one goal (in both parties). If that means that republicans have to adjust their convention schedule and do more to help, they should be thankful for the opportunity to help on such a big stage.

Maybe that means McCain will have to win the election without an 80K rockstar reception in prime time ;) Such is the way it goes and I'm guessing many in Louisiana would gladly exchange places with republican advisers in Minnesota.

Its commendable if you agree with what she did. On the flip side, I wouldn't be offended if they went the other way.

Let's be clear that this is a lone opinion. Every other Obama supporter here has praised Palin as a mother.

Fuck you. This is as worse than anything that those right-wing religious nuts have said regarding disasters. But this is getting no play - big surprise. The liberals broadbrush all non-liberals for their associations with such preachers and maybe some can broadbrush all left-leaning folks for their associations with these left-wing nuts.

Yeah I definitely cringed when I saw him say that on Olbermann's show the other night.

edit: I thought everyone stopped paying attention to Moore years ago, if it hasn't happened yet I hope it does now...

yeah. definite supreme asshattery by that fat tub of lard

:rolleyes:

Arles:

If you read my post, you see I already answered that question. It is my belief that one parent should be home with a child. (I believe it should be the mother, but then again so does nature). If it is the father and he has the makeup to handle that then fine.

I agree it has to be a great idea to fly around the country with your 5 month child who has Downs. Best decision ever! I'm sure that is great time managment.

The Republican spin on her lack of experience has been desperate. The crucial point of her lack of experience is that by far the most effective argument against Obama - his inexperience - has been rendered futile by this appointment - at best it will be seen meaningless, at worst hypocritical. It does not open up the Republican campaign to effective accusations of inexperience but negates the attacks on Obama for the same.

When I first heard the announcement I thought that it was very clever - McCain retained his image as a maverick while introducing a nomination that appealed to the conservative right of the party. It takes away the media focus on the Democrat Convention. It also looked as if he could gain some of those Clinton votes. But as I learned more about her and thought a little deeper then it didn't seem so clever.

What woman who voted for Clinton will vote for a gun-toting, pro-life, creationist, global warming sceptic that wants to drill in ANWR? Anyone that could vote for both Clinton and Palin should be put down ;)

This has to be a hell of a risk. McCain has destroyed his primary argument against Obama for an unpredictable gain in votes. McCain puts himself forward as the America-first patriot but this selection clearly puts his election first. Some women will clearly vote for her but many won't because of her conservatism, particularly on abortion. Some conservatives will be happier with the McCain ticket but some independents less. She has promoted at personal cost ethics in politics but may well be involved in a corruption scandal herself. The gain in votes has to be unknown.

I have to admit this is turning out to be a fascinating contest despite my lack of any direct practical interest :)

Warhammer:

I think its all fine and dandy that your parents choose this for you and your brother. Do I believe the decision is logical? No. Does it really matter that your mom and dad make logical decisions? Unless they are running for President or VP or some kind of elected office it doesn't. Well at least to me it doesn't.

I expect my elected officials to make intellegent informed decisions. The whole purpose you get the test, is to determine whether you should abort the fetus. I believe the stat is like 97% of babies who are detected with Downs are aborted.

So that goes to show you that our proposed elected official is at 3%.

I guess here is my point. I understand she "loves" all of her children. I don't want a president or vp that make decisions out of love or fear of god. I want one that uses logic and reason.

:jawdrop:

That's like the dumbest post ever. Ever.

I would more question the really bad decision to have a child post 40(danger rates rise substantially I believe) more than whether or not she decided to abort her baby(personal choice). Is she catholic or something?

Excellent point, I forgot to mention that.

Zing!

The ages 1 - 4 are about teaching kids how to live. It isn't about sitting them in a school learning their ABC's. Their job is to learn how to be kids. They do that best by being around the people who care most about them e.g. their parents. I mean you should read to them, work with them on counting or whatever other early learning excercies you wish, but, you wouldn't do it full time. An hour or two a day is all you need to do at that young age.

Things like compassion, manners, respect, self esteem, moral values are taught at home by the parents. Its pretty hard to cram that learning into them 2 hours a night after work?

And do you really want some lady making 10 bucks an hour to teach these core values to your children?

I get in this discussion quite often. I've heard peole tell me they couldn't afford it or it isn't possible. Well, people quite often don't make the sacrafices they need to.

We have this neighbor, she and her husband both work. They have twins. They both have nice cars, plasma TV, drink wine on a daily basis, eat out etc... etc... They talk about how they would love for the mom to stay home with the kids, but they can't afford it. They could afford it, if they changed their lifestyle.

For the first three and half years of my first childs life, we had one car. We wouldn't make enough money for our house and two cars and insurance etc... without her working. So, she sacraficed and did without a car. We did without eating out all the time. I did without buying games all the time. Heck, I didn't even upgrade my computer for those early years.

I'm not saying this is the case with your relationship. I'm just making a statement, that there are a ton of people who could live off of one income, but they choose not to.

Awesome post from a former fellow Grafton resident. I agree take a break SFL unless your post are for real then........no comment.

After her water broke, on the day of Trig's delivery, Palin delivered a keynote address in Texas and then flew 8 hours to Alaska.

She returned to the office three days after delivering the child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin



MOTHER OF THE YEAR!

you made one choice, they made another. Who are you to judge their choice? You have ZERO idea of the circumstances that they were in. Maybe they both needed to work to provide support to a sick parent and had a little extra leftover after that to increase their standard of living? You really have no idea of what's going on inside their lives.

Judge not lest ye be judged hmm?

:rant:

Actually, I'm well aware of what goes in their lives. I'm called over there quite often to sit down with them and discuss these things.

I look at their kids and that is why I judge. :(

Wow that's pretty damn harsh. I don't think it's really anyone's place to decide if it's logical to have a child, regardless if the child is mentally challenged. It's one thing to be pro-life or pro-choice, but just being a pro-dumbass like your comment, is just wrong. I'm pro-choice, but I wouldn't ever judge someone because they choose to have a child that they know will be difficult to raise. It's a choice I personally hope I will never have to make.

Handicapped children are paid for by us. They are a burden on society. Unless you are wealthy and can cover all the expense with having a child that is handicapped, it does indeed effect all of us.

I'm not saying we should force people to have an abortion. I'm saying, I have a right to not vote for them.

If you know that your child is going to be handicapped and you have it anyway, that is not logical. In fact it is stupid.

This lady would force woman who are raped to have the child.

This lady would force an incestious baby to be born.

This lady would force everyone who had a down's syndrome baby to carry it to term.

I repeat again, 97% of people terminate the baby. I want our leaders to use sense, not emotion or religous beliefs in their decisions.

So taking your "logic" if someone becomes handicapped they should be taken out back and shot?

No, again you are missing the point.

She had a test to see if a fetus had a genetic problem. It did and she choose to do nothing about it. That is the issue.


If you had a child who was handicapped and you didn't know about, that is 100% completely different.
If you had a child who became handicapped later in life, of course that is again different.

How is knowing your child may have a genetic problem, different from you or someone you love coming down with a handicap?

If you believe the fetus is a person, then what? Basically, astrofan takes the recently handicapped out back and shoots them for being a burden on society.

Frankly, children of poor people are a burden on society as well. We should just abort all of them too.

Doing some research it appears that detection rates of Down Syndrome is about 60-80% I can't find any numbers of false positives though.

One other thing to mention. It's not like Palin is starting the campaign in 2007 and has a year and a half left. She's basically on the campaign trail for two months. Then, she's either at a home in Washington or back in Alaska. Given she has the baby with her and her husband is there for support, I don't see how two months of campaigning with a strong support network (and the baby with you) is going to seriously impact the baby's future.

As many of you know, all that baby's doing over the next two months is eating, pooping and sleeping (with some crying thrown in for effect ;) ). As long as she is able to be near the baby, breastfeed if she chooses and spend quality time with him every day, I don't see how this child suffers the next two months.

Before you quote BS numbers do better research. The numbers you posted are for screenings not an amniocentesis.

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/health...ocentesis.aspx

How accurate is amniocentesis?

The accuracy of amniocentesis is about 99.4%.
Amniocentesis may occasionally be unsuccessful because of technical problems, such as an inability to collect an adequate amount of amniotic fluid or failure of the collected cells to grow when cultured.

My wife is 37 and we had this procedure done about a year ago. We read up on all of this stuff and went to genetic counciling.

Yep its a great idea to fly your child around everyday! Excellent idea. At five to seven months a child rolls over for the first time, is very much into his surroundings. They do quite a bit more then eat and poop.

First you claim my numbers are BS, and then you say my numbers are for screenings. Which one is it? I personally know very little about this testing, those were some numbers I found. Might as well just kill off anyone that can't contribute to society. So what do you do for a living?...:cool:

Oh please. A fetus is not a person. Its a glob of cells. Until brain activity takes place its just a growth inside of a woman. There really isn't a debate on this if you use any type of logic or reason.

If you want to go down the "soul" route. If someone kills a "baby" and if you believe in the whole christian god/heaven thing. The baby would goto heaven anyway, so what is the big deal. It would just be the people who were aborting the baby that would be punished for their sins.

Oh hey look I actually found something more useful than your numbers, false positive numbers.

From this site Down's Syndrome: Prenatal Screening and Your Baby

The bold was my doing to prove a point.

A screening is a blood test. I linked to the information for you if you are interested.


The amniocentesis is a needle that they stick into the amniotic sack and get amniotic fluid. They can then look at the actual chromosomes and see if there is an extra one. In the case of a down syndrome baby, there is one extra. They can screen for other birth defects as well.

The success rate on this test is well above 99%. The results aren't wrong, but sometimes they test can fail totally if they don't get enough fluid or your doctor is incompetent.

I guess it all depends on where you get your information, since what I've now found contradicts what you claim. :confused:

This is almost completely contradictory to what I read on about 10 other sites and what our genetic councilor told us.

don't forget stupid people. I guess we should have mandatory IQ tests and only keep enough stupid people to do menial labor and shoot the rest.

Sure was nice of SFL Cat to give you guys something to latch onto like this. I was kind of hoping he'd come right out and say he hates niggers or something.

Christ, guys, bastardizing Hussein Obama's name into something resembling a terrorist's name is not racist, unless that's just what you choose to see in SFL Cat's posts.

I fail to see how that post was targeting the fact that Obama is half black. It was using the sililarity of his name to -- ah, forget it. You read what you want to read. Just because it wasn't funny doesn't make it evidence of Klan sympathy, is all I'm sayin.

Down syndrome: Tests and diagnosis - MayoClinic.com

Blood tests. Results of the ultrasound are paired with blood tests that measure levels of pregnancy-associated plasma protein-A (PAPP-A) and a hormone known as human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG). Abnormal levels of PAPP-A and HCG may indicate a problem with the baby.
When this two-step screening is done during the 11th week of pregnancy, researchers say it can identify 87 percent of babies with Down syndrome. By 13 weeks, accuracy of the two-step screening approach drops to 82 percent.

I can only assume that the numbers from that UK site are for tests such as these. (basic blood tests)



If your screening tests are positive or worrisome or you're at high risk of having a baby with Down syndrome, you might consider further testing to confirm the diagnosis. Diagnostic tests that can identify Down syndrome include:

Amniocentesis. A sample of the amniotic fluid surrounding the fetus is withdrawn through a needle inserted into the mother's uterus. This sample is then used to analyze the chromosomes of the fetus. Doctors usually perform this test after 15 weeks of gestation. The test carries a risk of miscarriage of one in 200.
Chorionic villus sampling (CVS). Cells taken from the mother's placenta can be used to analyze the fetal chromosomes. Typically performed between the ninth and 14th week of pregnancy, this test carries a risk of miscarriage of one in 100.
Percutaneous umbilical blood sampling (PUBS). Blood is taken from a vein in the umbilical cord and examined for chromosomal defects. Doctors generally perform this test after 18 weeks of gestation. This test carries a greater risk of miscarriage than does amniocentesis or chorionic villus sampling. Generally, this test is only done when speed of diagnosis is essential.

Each of these three tests is 98 percent to 99 percent accurate in diagnosing Down syndrome before birth.

I think the mayoclinic is one of the top rated medical facilities in the world. I think we can all agree that information from their site is very reliable.

After rereading this. Those numbers you see on the chart are for the blood tests only. If you go on to read, the only option to be sure is Amniocentesis. But, there are chances you could miscarry, so some woman don't choose it.

All of this is not the point anyway. Now that we have determined that you can reliably detect if your baby is going to be mentally handicapped, I think we can debate the point of keeping it.

I could care less what any person normally does in this situation. You guys do what you want.

I just don't want my president or vp or senator or governor to make that choice. I think its foolish and not logical. So I would not want them representing me or making decisions for my country.

maybe not black/white racist, but anti-arab racist...sure it was. maybe it's all about your sensitivity, and the belief that if he's so quick to say that on a messageboard what is the rest that he's not saying, or hasn't said yet, what he has said just being the tip of the iceberg.

I agree with you that it is foolish and not logical for them to make the choice for me in this case, and honestly I don't know Palin's background on any issues yet, but just because someone makes a choice in their own life doesn't mean they expect to make that choice in all other people's lives.

Fortunately the decision to have a child isn't always logical in the first place, regardless of if there are complications. Not everything is cut and dry black and white logic when it comes to life, this is one of the special things that makes us human. We can actually cognitively think about things and decide what we want to do. There are always other factors then logic when it comes to life.

Umm.

Do you know anyone with Down's Syndrome? These are people, astrosfan, not numbers.

Of course there are additional challenges with raising any disabled child (I'm thankful to only know this second-hand, as both my girls are healthy), but there are also rewards that, for some parents I've spoken to, balance out or even outweigh the challenges.

I know a girl with microcephaly, used to work with her. What an absolute joy to know her! She just sent me a happy July 4th card she had made from construction paper and decorated two weeks ago, and I cherish it. One thing her father told me once when we were discussing her condition that's stuck with me ever since: "Karrie has never had a bad day like so called normal kids might. And she keeps us [her mom and dad] from having bad days, too."

I think your above quoted post is reprehensible, to be honest, af64. Or maybe just ingorant, if you've never had the chance to know and interact with people with "diabilities," maybe you can't be expected to have perspective on the issue.

That's asshattery on the level of that Kansas church that protests the funerals of soldiers killed in action.

Yup, better off to have killed the Downs kid, and then go run for VP on a Pro-Life platform!

Oh my.

I thought it was funny, because he started to add the last part of his name. I've never heard that before in a serious conversation even if he didn't sound all there. It was a disasterous interview and I find most disasterous things funny.


+1

This is the first time I opened this thread and the last.

This sounds like something out of Germany circa 1938.

:popcorn:

This is getting ugly

Now you're reminding me of... who was it? molson? A few pages back said he liked conservatives better because they try to you into their point of view, whereas libs look down their nose at you for not seeing that their way is correct (I know, I know, I'm wayyyyyy paraphrasing).

Anyway, I know you're self-described as conservative-leaning but in this case you're playing the role of the know-what's-best-for-everyone-better-than-they-know-themselves asshat.




Thing is, I don't say that your views are wrong for you and your wife. I'm no militant pro-lifer myself. I paid for my girlfriend to have an abortion when I was young (though I wish I could have that to do over again).

But you are coming down like a voice from on high, preaching about what is right and logical for other people to do.

You, sir, are no judge of my moral choices.

I think McCain is trying to cut it two ways. With centrists, particularly women, he is trying to appeal to them by bringing a new sort of candidate than the GOP usually sends out there. There aren't that many votes to swing his way--most of the country decided months ago. He's going for what he can with undecideds, but I don't think that was his primary focus.

His second way and probably the one he is more focused on was revitalizing the conservative right. And it's not because he fears anyone on the conservative right is going to vote for Obama. They won't and he knows it. No, his concern is being sure they vote, period. Because if they go to the polls, they are voting for him. Republicans tend to be more faithful and consistent voters as a bloc, from what I have always heard. Democrats are passionate, but there is a tendency toward voting apathy, partially because a powerful voting bloc among liberals is the younger set, which tend to take voting and politics less seriously.

So McCain may be making this choice to be sure that the consistent right wing voters out there will go to the polls. And to be sure to get more fundraising from the conservative right to attempt to appeal to the few undecideds out there.

Really, his most important point with this selection may already be complete--in one move, he essentially eliminated the talk about Obama's speech and refocused media attention on the GOP.

You're dead on that it is one of the more intriguing political moves I have seen, ever really. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I present to you, astrofan's choice for VP!



SPOCK FOR VICE PRESIDENT!!!

If this is such an issue for you, I am curious if you know the child-rearing decisions of the other candidates, all of whom, I believe, have families as well, and did so as they began and advanced in their political careers?

Or are you so entrenched in the "woman should be in the kitchen" mentality that this is purely a misogynistic stance for you that only applies to Palin?

I stayed out of the SFL Cat stuff because I thought what he said was pretty damn stupid.

That said, I have thought all along that you guys have come out far too much over the top, considering this IS a message board as you say. We don't really know anything about SFL Cat, and my initial impression is that what he said was made as a dumb decision to crack a joke, or to maybe hurt Obama's chances at electability, not some overt form of intentional racism. Now, the first two are certainly no great things either, but they aren't quite as serious as what you guys have charged him, and I don't honestly think you have enough information on him to make this accusation in anything but an extremely careless and dangerous way, especially with the way these political threads go.

SFL Cat secured for himself a position in the Hall of Stupidity with his stubborn defense of his joke, but that deosn't mean those of you who leaped on the race card were right to villify him to the extent that you did.

I'm working, going to graduate school, and will make a career out of working with predominantly special education kids, their families and teachers. Every child, whether they are your typical "normal" kid, have down syndrome or any other disability has different challenges and rewards involved with raising or interacting with them. However, they are all precious and a gift.

The mother of a child I work with has twins who both have moderate to major autism. The mother works all night while they sleep, drops her kids off at school, sleeps while they are in school and takes care of them after school. When she picks up the twins after school and they come running to her to give her a big hug, she lights up like most people rarely do. This is the same story in most of my experiences with the parents. In fact, I'd say that the different and yes sometimes greater set of challenges some of these wonderful children present could even cause the parents to appreciate and cherish their child even more.

Astrosfan, I don't know if it is due to lack of experience or exposure to children with disabilities, but if so, I would highly recommend changing that before voicing opinions on something you seem to have little exposure to.

Having learned more about her I don't see that she has much appeal for the centre - perhaps a few votes simply because she's a woman - but I certainly agree about her ensuring the right vote for McCain. That's why I first thought it to be a clever selection - he appeals to the right of the party while maintaining his image as a maverick (by selecting someone no one expected).

But there is an interesting poll out today that reports that the choice has far more approval from men than women. I'm not quite sure yet what to make of that but I do recall it was also true of Margaret Thatcher.


He certainly achieved that but I think it may be at some serious cost. I was watching the discussion programs on CNN and Fox and it was interesting to watch the GOP commentators, who have clearly been thrown by this (the Dem commentators much more comfortable with it), and were not sure of the tack to take. They were even more evasive than usual. Larry King cut to the chase with something like this: "is she the best Republican politician to become Commander in Chief if something happens to McCain". One GOP campaign advisor complained "you keep asking that". I was sorry King wasn't sufficiently uncivil to reply "Yes, but you haven't answered it yet" as she went on explaining how running a village of 9,000 people was ideal preparation for dealing with Putin and Osama bin Laden (it must be an interesting village :) ).

The problem is that the two big sticks that have been used to batter Obama and have lifted the McCain campaign have been seriously compromised - Obama's inexperience and the "who the hell is this guy" question. Well, McCain has now given the Democrats the perfect answer to these - "John McCain himself clearly doesn't think these are important."

I don't see the Dems using her inexperience directly but to deflect attacks on Obama.

So I'm not sure this is the great move it originally seemed. Geraldo illustrated this for me when he enthused that now the debate could cut to the chase and deal with the real issues such as the economy, global warming, energy crisis etc. But does McCain want the debate to turn to these? I think not. He would surely be much happier to keep the debate about Obama's lack of foreign affairs experience and his relatively unknown background which has had such success.


It is fascinating as to where it will go from here. As a non-American I must admit there's some of the appeal of watching a train wreck but my PVR has nearly as many political programs set for recording as soccer games :)

Well said, sir.

The problem with using Palin to blunt Obama's speech talk is that it's so shortsighted. 538 was discussing this and pointed out that convention bounces go away on their own.

I also think this pick shows the danger of allowing advisors to be too strong, let's call it the Marc Penn effect. McCain is the underdog and isn't expected to win. Certainly his advisors would like him to win, but they won't suffer professionally if he loses. What they need to do to boost their profile in the party and ensure future work isn't necessarily what's best for McCain. Choosing Palin to control a day of media coverage seems a perfect example of taking a big risk that boosts profile among Republicans but could backfire terribly for McCain.

So McCain and Palin are going to the Gulf region today to be briefed on Gustav. That's, IMO, a pretty stupid move, but please don't let McCain do this.

Great Post :)

You aren't killing a child. If the child was born with downs then of course you wouldn't lill them. To abort the fetus at 15 to 20 months, is far from killing a child or human. So your post is pretty dumb.

Aborting a fetus at 15 to 20 months is scrapping a blob of cells because they were the right material to build with.

There's a touch of self-righteousness there that I'm sure you're not aware of, Danny. Had your experiences been with young women whose lives have been destroyed by being unable to deal with the extreme demands of a disabled child, turned to drugs and repeatedly attempted suicide you too might have a different view on this.

I'm sure everything you describe, Danny, is quite correct but it is only one man's experience and there are many experiences to be dealt with. For that we need a far more flexible approach than what you propose.

Wow, you're a fucking idiot.

Wow. This has gotten nasty.

Since its already stated I think Obama will not win because he is black.

As for SFL Cat, his posts are very disappointing and the fact some if you can defend him is disappointing as well.

It's not self-righteousness! My sister has a son that is suffering from cerebral palsy and severe autism. It's a tough, tough, tough situation, but she deals with it by being absolutely selfless and amazing for her child. If other women are turning to drugs and committing suicide, blame them, not those who would offer knowledge, help and guidance.

Nice reply sheep. You let the government make your choices for you. If you are calling me an idiot because of the stats of the procedure. Then you are calling the doctors at the mayo clinic idiots.

That illustrates my point, Danny. That is the self-righteous, even sanctimonious, tone I'm referring to.


You see, you're not offering help and guidance you're offering condemnation.

I just reread the posts above. This is why I stay out of political threads. Everyone here looks to call someone a racist, an idiot, a sheep or 100 other insulting type of phrases or names.

No thanks, I'm not getting drawn into this. Intellegent debate on this topic doesn't work here. I'm going back to the normal sports and video game threads.

Carry on everyone and good wishes to all of you.

I'm calling you an idiot because you're making a political issue out of someone giving birth to a special needs child.

This is one of my big pet peeves. Seriously, if you're going to leave the thread, because you can't handle it, then just leave the thread. Don't make bullshit posts like this so you get the last word in and leave. That is nothing more than trolling.

Also, you're an idiot.