:deadhorse:

mostly the last, there was thoughyts that Iran was using the attack to distract from the fact that sanctions are biting, so much so that fuel subsidies and the like are being

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
I swear, it is like groundhog day.

I read somewhere the people are fed up with Iran's military spending. They do fund a lot of insurgents all across the Middle East. Having the military lie about shooting down the aircraft just adds to the ant-military attitude.

I have numbered your response so that I can address them one by one.

1. White House policy writing maybe completely different from high level military policy writing, but based on conversations had and experienced working for people who have worked in the White House, I am going to go with it. If I wrote command level policy when I worked at headquarters in the military, nobody gave a damn who actually wrote it. Yes I did the research. Yes, I submitted what I thought the policy should be. Yes I knew the policy inside and out. Yes, I was the point of contact for everything that had to do with the policy. But make no mistake about it, The policy was based on the vision, needs and wants of the person whose name was going to be signed at the end of the policy. Since that person had influence and veto over what I wrote in the policy, then the policy was the policy for the entire organization including myself. That is a long way of saying this is an Trump administration policy not Jared Kushner's policy. It makes no sense to try and separate the two IMO.

2. I will save this one for the end.

3. The prevalent stand on immigration from this administration has been to limit foreign born workers from coming in and taking jobs away from hard working Americans. This includes the STEM jobs. At no point have I heard the administration mention the supply and demand gap when they talk about restricting immigration. This proposal actually increases that.

4. You asked me for an example and I gave you one. Once again, it does not invalidate the worthiness of merit based immigration as a concept. IT DOES call into question the worthiness of THIS merit based immigration proposal IMO. I am not familiar with the specifics of the Canadian or the Australian systems so I will leave that to those more knowledgeable to discuss.

Now to answer your questions.

1. I don't understand why you are uncomfortable with my answer of "I don't know". It seems like a valid response to a proposal that has not completely fleshed out yet. I have not dismissed out of hand. I have presented ways and circumstances the concept could be racist based on a comment suggesting racist motives can lead to good policy. However based on all the information and because I believe it is more about keeping particular races out more than anything else, I would say it is more racist. I also don't believe that Stephen Miller whose (reportedly) sole purpose for being in the White House is immigration policy is just sitting off somewhere twiddling his thumbs while all this is going on.


2. This one is easy

a) The original Muslim ban- significant as this showed what the administration actually want to do.

b) Rescinding DACA- 94% Latino, another coincidence?

c) Attempts to rescind birthright citizenship.

d) The rule that bars protection for immigrants who failed to apply for asylum in at least one country they passed through before crossing into the United States. This is a violation of U.S. and International laws inspired by the world's treatment of the Holocaust survivors.

Now to address your second response.

What I meant is if the only evidence you are willing to accept to the possibility that the proposal is racist is based exclusively on those sort of 1950's and 1960's style racist proclamations, then you are doing a disservice to the ADL and the good work they are doing. They actually went about describing racism in great detail from a historical perspective to the modern day. Why are you ignoring that information? That stuff matters. As the social construct of race changes, so does racism.

It probably was exacerbated by Iranian government denials vs saying "we are investigating, wait and see".

I think the timeline was early Wed morning EST when it happened and the Iranians fessed up to it on Fri EST. That to me doesn't seem like an unreasonable time to pass before declaring it was a shootdown.

Thanks for the direct response. As a couple forum posters has hinted to stop, let's agree to disagree on racist vs discrimination. I think you understand my POV and I understand yours. One thing we agree on is there should be a more balanced and holistic immigration reform that not only includes merit-based but also solution for DACA and guest workers. Appreciate the civil discussion.

This seems like a pretty good deal so far.

I'm not sure what China gets other than a pause/some rollback in tariffs.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/13/here...this-week.html

Nothing matters until we see the text of the signed agreement. It's not like they haven't lied about these things in the past.

dola

I'm so old I remember when conservatives complained that Obama made everything about him.

And standing with some ROTC guys off to the side was a weird diminishing of the office IMO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...f6d_story.html

There's a lot of things to be depressed about regarding the state of our current politics. But the one that I think is the worst is that a hostile country is openly trying to hack our elections, and half the country is fine ignoring it (or even liking it) because, right now, that country is favoring one side over the other.

Well, Jon has said he would rather side with the Russians than with the Democrats.

Yes definition of a traitor .

Latest Pew research on world opinion on Trump and US.

Pretty much boils down to most surveyed do not like or have confidence in Trump but in general, they still like the US.

Trump Ratings Remain Low Around the World, While Views of U.S. Stay Mostly Favorable | Pew Research Center



Younger folks like the US better than older folks.

Jon was radical before being radical was cool.

Lev Parnas' attorney has now released two short videos of photos of Parnas with Trump, his family, Giuliani, and others. The second one has We are Family as a soundtrack.

Also released text messages that seem to imply they were going to kill the Ukraine ambassador.

Speaking of Rudy, he's kept a low profile recently.

He's been preparing for his role in Trump's trial

At a minimum it makes Trump's she'll go through some things line to the Ukraine President look more ominous. If he was involved in any surveillance or threats to an ambassador, he has to be removed.

Too bad the GOP doesn't care.

When you see something like this it makes you wonder just how bad the things we don't know yet about this administration are.

Except it's not, at all. Last I checked we weren't at war with Russia.

Which makes no sense since we're the ones who put Trump in power. Polls like this amuse me, much like the slice of Americans who simultaneously believe foreign aid is too high and don't want that amount reduced. :banghead:

Not a shooting war.

Well officially yes ....in reality we absolutely are and more than anytime since 1990.

Do you not know what a Cold War is?

The Russian government resigned today to give Putin full power, I’m sure Trump got hard at the thought of doing the same here.

Lev Parnas and his attorney will be on Maddow tonight at 9pm which should make for a very interesting interview

I'm assuming this isn't a serious question. When someone says traitor, that's a serious thing to say and it means something. One cannot commit treason without an actual declared war for them to join in or aid the enemy in. Russia is a geopolitical rival. They're not an enemy. There's a huge difference between the two, and our current conflicts of interest with them moreover are not remotely as serious as they were during the Cold 'not really a war'.

If anything, they're *more* serious now.

The Cold War operated in a bipolar world, and MAD pretty much guaranteed the fears of nuclear war ending humanity were vastly overblown. It was actually a very safe time period globally speaking.

The current international climate - with nuclear proliferation, a multipolar axis of superpowers, and frankly unstable international relations (and Trump advancing that chaos), is far more dangerous and prone to extinction-level conflicts.

Not sure why his attorney is doing this. I'm sure there is some broader plan, but I was under the impression you get your client to shut up.

The Hyde stuff is crazy. Apparently he had a restraining order on him in DC for stalking someone too. In a normal world, stalking and threatening to have an Ambassador murdered would land you in jail but these are not normal times.

If it weren't for the inaction of one Soviet Colonel, we'd all have died in the eighties.

And before that, a Vice Admiral saved the world in the Cuban Missile Crisis;

Vasily Arkhipov (vice admiral - Wikipedia)

So Devin Nunes now remembers that he did speak to Parnas after all...

You sir are either a naive fool or so into the far right koolaid you are gone you are disingenuous. Does not matter to me why. I stick by what I said and will expand it to include Trump, General Flynn, Giuliani, Trump Jr., Mulvaney, Pompeo; Stephen Miller and maybe a Republican Senator like Nunez.

Late Boomer here. Respectfully disagree, the current conflicts, serious as they are ... are not as serious as the Cold War. When Gorbachev came, it got better but pre-Gorbachev it was a scary world.

I've said we are at "war" with China economically and technological wise. Even with that, I still say the old Cold War was worse because of the finality of nukes and we have time to counter the China threat.

Its because of the "goodwill" that US has created over the years. This is above and beyond politics, we are not being judged just on Trump.

The threat of nuclear war is much lower, to the point of being non-existent, but we're under attack in different ways. The current leadership of Russia would prefer us to be wiped off the map and many are still bitter of the Cold War. Rather than sitting on the opposite side of the globe with a finger hovering over the nuke button Russia is now attacking our democracy, spreading misinformation that costs us economically and in lives, and trying to escalate tension between us our enemies.

Russia isn't the direct military threat they were during the cold war, but the actual danger is Putin knows that and also knows how to use their relatively limited resources to arguably have a greater influence on our country than they did during the cold war.

I've said it here before and I'll continue to say, Russia is definitely our greatest enemy and I believe anyone that doesn't see them as such is naive. China is mostly trying to expand its economic influence around the globe to boost itself. Russia doesn't have means or resources to boost itself so it's trying to bring everyone else down to its level.

I do believe Russia is trying to do all that you say. However, with new found awareness and being on guard, and Russia not growing as much economically or technology wise, the Russian threat can eventually be blunted.

The reason why I see China as our #1 threat is because they play the long game, they will continue to grow and, if unchecked, they will eventually surpass the Russian threat (if not already) other than militarily.

So if you had to pick either Cold War vs now ... which was/is worse?

I think it's difficult to compare the two. The Cold War impact on the everyday American's lives was more psychological than actual throughout the vast majority of it. What we're seeing now is a direct impact on each and every one of our lives every single day. It's a different kind of threat that could do devastating amounts of damage if they continue to destroy our faith in democratic process.

Without knowing how this particular piece of history ends it's impossible say which is worse. The potential is definitely there for something more damaging than what we saw from the Cold War.

So the Parnas interview on Maddow destroyed all of Trump's defenses. Yet the headline on Fox News read, "Parnas, in rare interview, undermines House Dems' claims that Trump team surveilled Ukraine ambassador" because he said they were stringing Hyde along and downplayed any real threat that Yovanovitch was under.

There's no way Nunes is only a maybe, the level of cover-up he did for trump while the republicans were in control of the house is stunning.

The total lack of substantive response to my argument is noted for the record. As far as me being far right, it ought to be enough to note that I didn't vote for Trump and will likely vote Democrat for the first time in my adult life in the coming election. That's how 'far right koolaid' I am.

I never thought such a war would 'end humanity' but as to the rest I don't think there's anything you've ever said in my recollection that I disagree with more. Nuclear proliferation is primarily for economic purposes - powerful nations don't negotiate the same with nuclear powers for self-evident reasons.

I think the current geopolitical order is much safer and stabler than it was during the Cold War, a concept borne out by empirical evidence (there are fewer and less destructive wars now). That's not necessarily because we did anything great, the increasing reliance on the global economy has basically made cooperation in at least limited ways a necessity.

A cursory examination of the major findings from the Venona Project makes this argument quite ill-informed IMO. Throughout the Cold War we were generally very unaware of the high degree to which our government and society had been penetrated by communist agents. The things Russia is doing now are like a child playing with toys in comparison to what was going on at that time of our history.

Agreed, I would add that during the Cold War, they knew they would not be able to subvert us because the parties by and large agreed on foreign policy. Also, the country definitely had a "Better dead than red" mentality that it does not have now.

What we're seeing now is a rise in anti-vaccination driven largely by Russia propaganda that will have a lasting and deadly impact on our country. They've penetrating our voting machines and possibly (likely?) dabbled in vote manipulation. They've stoked racial tensions and driven us to a historical level of partisanship. They've successfully organized both a protest and a counter protest of that same protest on American soil. You can also make a strong argument that they hand selected our current President.

The Verona project ran for 30+ years and it was many years after that the the findings were published and we were able to analyze them. Russia is still in the infancy stages of their current attacks on the U.S. and it's already succeeded in hitting many of their post Cold War goals both within this country and globally. If these are the things we know one can only imagine the things we don't yet. I mean, Putin has been bold enough to blatantly carry out assassinations in the UK and he's been probing our military over the past few years in ways we hadn't seen since the Cold War.

The Cold War ran for 45 years. We're roughly 5 into Putin's current playbook and the potential long game benefits he's already lined up are kind of scary.

Yeah, which goes bacK the the original discussion about how some not insignificant percentage of the population favors Russia over democrats and believes there should be a civil war rather than risk democrats running the country, and excitedly approve of our president being played like a puppet by Putin as long as it helps keep democrats out of power. Better dead than red is now better dead than dem.

I don’t actually believe there is a serious threat of people taking up arms outside of a militia here and there, but the number of people who honestly believe democrats are more to fear than Russia, China, any terrorist org are frightening, and that brings us back to our original “traitor” comment.

"Oh, THAT Lev Parnas. Yeah, I spoke to him. It was about golf and football...excuse, me. What? Oh, THAT Ukraine..."

As this is heading into territory I can’t publicly comment much on. But will respect your request to state what from my point is an obvious linkage. First yes I understand the legal definition of traitor so perhaps my use of the word is the issue.
Let’s start with Webster’s definition of traitor:one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.

Citizens and especially those in official government posts are betraying the nation they swore an oath too. We as citizens pledged allegiance to the flag everyday in school and at every sports event we attend.

Yes it is true we are not in shooting war. That being said I was a combat weapons officer (bombardier) in the late 80s on SAC nuclear bombers with daily role of deterrence flights over the arctic polar cap in. I am now deeply involved with countering nation state attacks that target organizations that hire the large technology firm I am a cyber security advisor and strategist for. I will only say that Russia is extremely active against us as a nation in the cyber threat area. In particular, SCADA focused attacks are a huge concern . SCADA in layman’s terms relates often to control systems in power plants electrical grid systems, water filtration systems, industrial control, systems in critical manufacturing facilities etc. the ongoing attacking of these systems is occurring right now. The Cold War did have threats and espionage and wars thru surrogates but in my honest opinion it generally did not get to the level of attack’s we see today in the cyber realm.
My two cents and will retract my statement calling you a fool or a new con.

Today's self aggrandizing headline via WH email is:


Trump's Phase One China Trade Deal Result of Negotiator-in-Chief's Courage

If true on #1, solid progress on price transparency (e.g. what other product or service do you buy in the US that you don't at least have an approx cost/range before making a decision?). One large piece of a very large problem but at least something is being done here. More obviously needs to be done.

Bottom-line I'm all for single payer or public option, just as long as a baseline healthcare is affordable to all and premium services are available (e.g. you pay for your own cosmetic surgery, or brand prescriptions vs generic) without putting us trillions more into the debt (e.g. okay with increased taxes).

Five big changes coming to health care in 2020 - MarketWatch


TBH, I assume this will be successful at the major employers. Another way of attacking the very large problem. However, I'm not sure if it'll trickle down sufficiently to the small-mid sized ones.

Caught the video of the Chief being sworn in, and his hands were slightly shaking. He REALLY does not want to be there.

This was quite a reasonable response, and I thank you for it. With regards to stuff like this -- I mean, I no longer recite the pledge ever, for any reason. It's the kind of thing that I'd expect from an authoritarian regime, not a free society. If this is what the bar is for being a traitor, then sure we have a lot of them. I'd be proud to count myself among them, rather than nullify my responsibilities to the rest of humanity.


This is a mix of truth (protest organizing, voting machines), stretches, and unknowables. There's no way to demonstrate how much, for example, of current tensions and partisanship is due to what causal factors. What's weird to me here is how this sort of approach though just totally absolves the American electorate from the responsibilities of their decisions. Don't like their choices? It's Russia's fault. We're constantly bombarded by mass media in all aspects of life. If we're powerless to resist it and make decisions , then we've got a far bigger problem than Russian interference. Meanwhile there are way too many examples of elections where the side that spent the most money lost badly for me to buy into this. I'm usually the most cynical person in any discussion on the caliber of the average US voter, but apparently there are those even more so.

It's hard to see Russia as anything other than an antagonist for the free world. They've waged a steady brand of electronic war across the globe for well over 5 years now. From unrelenting attacks on the Ukraine's computers and power grid, to US manipulation via social attacks, to actual assassinations of dissidents around the globe, to the doping scandals in sports, to the hacking of the Olympics, the list is quite long that there's never really any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.

That's also my perspective on the current WH leadership. He's stoked enough fires, and attacked enough people that when I hear the defense "well, he's being attacked from all sides, what do you expect him to do?" I'm expected to think of it as a chicken and egg, scenario. Again, looking at who he surrounds himself with, and who he is allied with, or his past work of behavior, it's impossible to give him any sort of benefit of the doubt.

You know, I had a funny thought reading your post here, which I tend to agree with. As a restaurant manager with a number of people working under me, I of course have an employee or two to whom things just happen. And I'm talking about seemingly random things, getting sick, car gets stolen, family issues, etc. I used to feel like these people were just unfortunate in a recent stretch. I no longer give them the benefit of that doubt. I feel like people who happen to have chaotic lives have them for reasons of their own making. Stuff "happens' to people who don't have their shit together.

Well so much for no us soldier injuries in the Iran missile attack. 11 injured and medical evacuated to Germany which is common from ME for the military. The injuries sound serious enough traumatic brain injuries. 11 U.S. troops were wounded in Iran missile attack on Iraqi bases, reports say - MarketWatch

I'm not really sure who you are arguing with here. You quoted me though, so for the record, I totally agree with this statement, I think they're lying about what they've done/are doing in all likelihood, and I don't give them any benefit of the doubt.

I also think they are very likely in the broader conversation happening in this thread being conveniently blamed for things they simply don't have the power to do more than have a marginal effect on. There's a whole lot of Occam's razor stuff going on with the USA's modern sociopolitical dysfunctions. My opinion, supported by I think the great preponderance of the available evidence, is that we keep doing stupid things because we, the people, keep doing stupid things. Not, primarily, because Russia made us or the various other theories that preceded that are explanations.

Now the question is whether the WH lied or whether the military kept the info from the WH in order to keep things from escalating.

Is there any doubt the White House lied?

I don't know. I think there could be a person or group in the military that kept the info from the WH in order to void a larger war.

Not buying it. This WH lies about everything.

That's very likely be a career ending decision for an officer. I don't see it.

This would have come from the WH

I'm not defending the WH here. I'm saying it's possible that DoD folks thought, those guys are crazy and this will lead to a regional war or worse. Nobody is dead, so let's keep this quiet and see if we can't stop the train before it goes out of control. Basically it's like what the Soviet Colonel did in the eighties.

That may not be what happened, because, yes, the WH lies all the time. But I think it's a possibility.

I'm just looking at it from the angle of the officer that would have to make that decision. I don't see an officer willingly ending his career advancement and looking at forced retirement over something like this.

The WH had every reason to downplay the attack and I could see Trump's advisors not telling him about casualties as long as there were no deaths.

Every bit of news I heard always talked about casualties. So, it is possible they knew about the injuries and only reported no casualties.

An injury is a casualty.

Anyone who reported no casualties is lying or misinformed.

Hell, Trump likely doesn't know that.

But he knows more than the generals!

I think we're closer than it may appear. I'm not limiting the possibility to an officer in Iraq. It could have been Esper or someone else at the Pentagon.. Pompeo, Pence, and O'Brien seem unlikely as they have all been hawks towards Iran.

You know, I was reading this, and my immediate thought were all the studies that I read back on college on the ways that people are influenced. It's a very libertarian viewpoint to say that everything that happens is the fault of the person who let it happen to them. I heard this when I was in 4th grade too. I was picked on by the son of one of the pastors in the church that my divorced mom and I went to. I didn't handle that sort of thing very well and it ended up with me losing it multiple times. I remember sitting in the office and explaining why I had done what I had done. I was told that it was my fault, that they would talk to him. They also said that I was one foot out the door to being expelled (not the first or second incident with me and after I punched another kid in the nose and sent him crying). But the bottom line, from my perspective, is that there's a lot more going on than people who just made bad decisions.

There's a big difference between a 4th grader at 9 or 10 who is learning how to cope with things and the adult voting populace. There's a reason why we have a minimum age for voting, so hopefully, the voter has had enough life experience to make educated decisions.

I definitely don't want to be callous enough to make any comment on the personal story you've relayed other than to say I'm truly sorry that's something you had to go through as a child.

As it regards the larger society, I think I addressed this perspective:


The question I would ask here is not to contradict the POV that people who make bad decisions are to a significant degree doing so because of outside influences. Rather, it's to ask what form of government we should adopt given the assumption that this is true. Because one thing's for sure; if that's the case, democratic systems are doomed. Their foundation rests on the assumption that people can and will be responsible enough to handle their civic duties.

Good read on the Bulwark by JVL.

Donald Trump, Impeachment, and the Houston Astros - The Bulwark

You need to sign up for the Bulwark's emails to read it all, but both are worth it.

Well, the founding fathers certainly believed this to be true. Our form of accepted government has evolved over time, but having the general populace in charge of government was sort of laughed at, wasn't it?

That was part of the reason for having the Senators appointed by the states. They were removed from the wrath of the electorate while also not having to pander to them. They had to be respected (in theory) to be appointed.

I wouldn't say it was laughed at. Counterbalances considered necessary within the system, absolutely. But even in the original Constitution for example, financial bills were required to start in the House where the people had control. . Democracy still held by far the majority of the power, and the people could change the wielders of said reins in the 'less democratic' aspects over time if they chose. It was only temporary, impulsive fluctuations in the mood of the public that were disenfranchised.

Of course, this rabbit trail doesn't actually answer the question posed.

Weren't a lot of the founding fathers' oppposition to the popular vote based around the inability to come to an agreement on the slave math?

Former Rep Chris Collins the first to endorse Trump gets a 26 month jail sentence for conspiracy to commit securities fraud:


Chris Collins, First U.S. Lawmaker To Endorse Trump, Gets 26-Month Prison Sentence | HuffPost

That's a very poorly chosen headline.

Is it?

Well, it suggests Collins is getting 26 months of jail time for endorsing Trump lol.

Seems fair to me though. :D

Some weird old school Soviet Union type stuff here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...1a4_story.html

Going down the never ending rabbit hole that is the current administration's corruption:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tru...ments-n1118226

So Hyde was texting Yovanovitch's location to Parnas and people were wondering where he was getting the location data from. It turns out, based on the documents released the House today, that he was just copy and pasting texts he was getting from someone named Anthony de Caluwe who turns out to be a Mar-A-Lago member and huge Trump supporter.

When initially contacted he was denying everything, but when provided evidence of the texts he dropped all contact with NBC. NBC was then contacted by one Karyn Turk who claimed she was now representing Mr. de Caluwe to the media.

Who is Karyn Turk? It just so happens she's a close friend of Roger Stone and she set up fundraisers to help with his legal bills. Oh, she was also sentenced to a month in prison earlier this month for stealing her mom's social security checks.

https://hillreporter.com/die-hard-ma...y-checks-55609

It's grifters all the way down

Farmers still going strong with Trump.

Farmers still love Trump as president hits highest approval rate ever in ag poll - MarketWatch

It's nice to know the trains are running on time.

Trump May Be Even More Unpopular Than His Approval Rating Shows | FiveThirtyEight

538 had an article on job approval that's both interesting and obvious after reading it. We've become so partisan in our politics that people are seeing job approval questions as essentially asking the question "do you support your party or the other party?".

I think the massive welfare checks he has given them help the approval ratings quite a bit.

This past weekend, there were several threads on an Ag forum that I read discussing whether the MFP payments were welfare or not. Minus a few sensible posts, the general consensus was that it isn’t welfare because they work hard and deserve it.

Nobody complains about getting a free handout when it’s your hand getting the benefit.

Trump is now an environmentalist!

Trump announces the US will join 1 trillion tree initiative | TheHill

I can not fathom how anyone can watch this impeachment and think Trump is innocent. What innocent person does all they can to stonewall the process that is designed to prove they are innocent.

Yep. If you're innocent, you want a lot of witnesses and documents showing that to be produced. If you're guilty, you want to suppress everything.

Christ, even Fox News is saying the argument for calling witnesses is compelling.

Yes, but they're probably on the Hunter-and-whistleblower bandwagon for that.

The Guardian is running a story that claims Bezos' phone was hacked by the Saudis through a video file sent by the crown Prince's account.

Several months later the National Enquirer ran the story on Bezos that included copies of text messages.

dola


Today's when Trump confessed to obstruction of Congress.

So Tulsi Gabbard, in a move sure to make Dems vote for her is suing Hillary Clinton for $50 million dollars over her calling her a "a favorite of the Russians" last fall


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...m_npd_nn_tw_ma


I just want to know if she's going to sue every journalist and every Twitter user who have said exactly the same thing?

Ah, sounds like she is employing the Devin Nunes maneuver.

And its worked so well for him...