I don't know. There was a photo in this morning's AJC, for example, of a helicopter that was trying to land with food and water, but couldn't, because the people kept pushing forward toward the 'copter, giving it nowhere to land. The caption said that they hovered there for quite sometime trying to get a landing area, but ended up having to just drop the food and water from the air and let the people fight over it. The Chaos Theory folks could have a field day with this one.

You ask a reasonable question, one that pretty much everybody here in the US is going to be asking too.

The problem with answering the question right now is: none of us really have any way to know without actually being there. Like you, we're limited to what we see/read/hear (if you're reading the internet information, I believe you're getting most everything of consequence that's on national television).

Right now, working with only the limited information I have, I believe that there are some things that could have been done theoretically that haven't been, but I'm not sure how much of that is ineptitude, how much is procedural inability (our Federal government does not have complete jurisdiction), how much was due to lack communication, and how much was due to the physical conditions. What role each played is something we aren't likely to know for months or years, well after the immediate crisis has ended.

I would add....

and how much is due to "hindsight is 20/20"... I think there is going to be a lot of that going on...

And much of that hindsight is going to be filtered through political glasses of assorted types of lenses.

Even with my general statement that "everything is political", I'll add an honest :( to that prediction.

While that is true, it's not like this came as a total surprise to anyone. People have known that this type of flooding was a likely reality for, what, 50 years? More? Hell, we here at FOFC talked about this in length a year ago. People wrote long articles describing detailed scenarios just like this.

This has to be one of the most anticipated natural disasters in history. We knew at least 48 hours in advance that the hurricane was going to hit New Orleans.

There doesn't appear to have been any sort of planning at all. The response has been pretty pathetic. Given that this has been anticipated for so long, I find it pretty shocking. It's not at all like this came out of nowhere.

This isn't a political thing because I agree with an earlier post that, regardless of who was in the White House, I doubt the results would be the same.

How much money has been pumped into Homeland Security over the last few years? FEMA is part of Homeland Security and if this isn't about "securing the homeland", I don't know what is.

Hindsight is 20/20, but, in this case, Foresight was pretty damn close to 20/20.

The response has been pretty shameful.

Agreed.

To me it is sad and disgusting that anyone uses this tragedy for political means.

is there more we could have done? sure.

Can we expect for ANYONE let alone our politicians to think of a) every possibility or b) how to perfectly handle every possibility? no.

Can we assume that our political leaders did everything they felt they could up until August 29th to deal with this possible situation? imo, yes.

I try to rarely jump into the political arena on this board, but i'm finally fed-up with some folks on this issue (more so in the media, not on this board)... What good do pot-shots at the president do right now? the mayor? the governor? FEMA? NOTHING. In fact, what good do pot shots do 2 years from now? NOTHING. Take these as lessons learned and come up with better plans, who cares who's fault it is? I'm sure some of the elements in place were designed/planned by democrats. Some were designed/planned by republicans. Hell, they could have been designed by Mickey Mouse for all I know - it DOESN'T FREAKIN MATTER.

Sorry for the rant..

but I often listen to both conservative and liberal talk radio for entertainment value and news... I agree with one side on many issues, agree with the other on many other issues... I enjoy the UIC on both kinds of talk shows also...

However... last evening on the liberal shows (Ed Schultz in particular) all it was was the host and callers bashing the administration over and over and over.. it was the first time I have truely gotten pissed from listening to radio commentary (usually I take it in stride as entertainment value)... Particularly right now, this serves no value and it angers me that people are spreading this mentality out there.

End of rant..... for now....

But Brown also acknowledged that little in the government's preparedness plan took into account the likelihood of lawlessness in such dire straits.

"Before the hurricane struck I came down here personally and rode the storm out in Baton Rouge," he said. "We had all of our rescue teams, the medical teams, pre-deployed, ready to go. ... The lawlessness, the crime that is occurring, did surprise us."

Short-sighted? Or planning documents that were diluted repeatedly in order to avoid anybody getting their feelings hurt?

My guess? Some of both.

Give me a break.

From what I have seen, there was pretty solid preparation. In fact, I'm willing to say if animals hadn't taken to the streets to hamper the efforts, we would probably be seeing a basically empty city with most of the evacuees/refugees in a relatively decent camp of some kind.

As Dutch has mentioned, it sounds like the shelters where folks evacuated to are very under control. Good volunteers, good supplies, etc.

The Super Dome was set up as a very solid base camp. How many people expected the roof to rip off and it to take the damage it did? You may say "oh yeah, we knew"... sorry, people did not think that the Super Dome would take the damage it did.

The warnings were given for days. People refused to leave despite the dooms day warning. How could we expect that over 25,000 people would not leave the city despite being required to? You may say that was easily predictable, I disagree.

However, there were plans for this.. there were rescue copters, boats, search and rescue teams, etc... However, they cannot perform their job now because of the animals in the streets.

There were plans for National Guardsmen to assist in this effort. They instead must control the animals.

The idea that we could have prepared perfectly for this absolute chaos is absurd. In my mind, the prepartion was pretty damned good. In fact, as someone else mentioned, on Monday evening Homeland Security, etc. were praised for their preparation. That was while things went 'as planned'. Then the events that no one expected happened.

It may just be a bad reputation, but weren't many parts of New Orleans lawless and crime filled when there wasnt 6 feet of water on the ground. This guy is a dumbass to be suprised at the violence.

They absolutely deserve to be bashed. The director of FEMA this morning said they would have help there by Sunday. Without water, most of the people will be dead by Sunday. The government did not create the conditions in New Orleans, but failing to provide basic supplies within 3 days is an absolute failure on the part of our government, so calling it a failure publicly is appropriate and fair. Since politicians only seem to respond to things that will affect their future ability to get elected, I think slamming them publicly is perhaps the only thing that might get these people some help.

As for the federal government not having authority? You don't need authority to load water in some sort of transport and get it there. Besides, both the mayor of NO and the governor have begged for some sort of help from the govt. whose response has mostly been - "maybe next week."

And they were probably trying to be PC, to not infer that people would act like animals.

You would allow your son to grow up without a father to save the life of your pet??

Absolutely ... especially since it isn't a sure thing that I don't make it out too, just on a later bus. The rough equivalent is going back into a burning house to rescue the pets.

This is insanity.

I'm sorry but I value my children having teh support they need for their lives more then my pets

Wow....you have an interesting perspective on life. Now I am truly curious to learn about your life philosophy because I never heard so many interesting statements in my life. At the very least you are consistent in a complicated and emotional kind of way.

Yeah, actually you do.

-- When to "get it there", you've got to have adequate means to defend yourself while delivering it.
-- When to "get it there", you have to have access to an area to even unload it AND not make the situation worse by creating a riot (although it obviously doesn't require drinking water to get a riot in NO).
-- When to "get it there" means more than just dumping randomly & hoping that people will find it. (notice that FEMA was only made aware of any situation at the Convention Center at all yesteday? With all the media coverage throughout the aftermath, the first mention I heard of the CC was yesterday.

Or would just airdropping water from high altitude be enough to satisfy your criteria for "get it there"? All I see that accomplishing would be complaints about how the safety of the people was callously disregarded by those who would drop heavy objects on those below.

Ummmm....it isn't as simple as "we'll be there." Again, going back to the helicopter scenario, how in the world do you deal with that? Just shoot a few people? The refugees are overrunning the police. I'm not sure that something like that could have been anticipated. Like I said, the Chaos Theory folks are going to have a field day with this one. If the plan was (as it would appear) to helicopter supplies in, then that plan has been thwarted. If we're trying to throw blame around, would it not have made since for the city of New Orleans to have a plan to evacuate those who had no way to get out before a major storm was on the way? Let's not forget that an evacuation order was issued. Some who could get out chose to ignore it. Honestly, those are the very last people that I'm concerned about. I mean, I know Fats Domino is talented, but he has no one to blame for his plight than himself. Again, it would seem that the first order of business, given that we've known that this could happen for years, would have been figuring out a way to make sure people get out before we had to rescue them. Yes, the Superdome was listed as a "destination of last resort," but I doubt that message fully got through. I'm sure thousands thought it was a safe shelter. Maybe it would have been better to offer no "destinations of last resort" to hammer home the point that nowhere in New Orleans is safe.

Sorry, I know that was a rambling post, but my thoughts are rambling right now. :p

--Ben

You wouldn't go back into your house during a fire to make an effort to rescue your pets?

Umm, that seems a lot stranger to me than anything I've said on this subject.

when someone makes a fucking retarded comment like that, the only thing i can do is wish that person is one day in an actual situation where he has to make that decision, so he can look his son in the eyes and say "well, son, little Fido is gonna go with you. best of luck in life". i wish, nay, pray, that someone who has that mindset will one day have to actually be in that situation.

QOTM - True dat.

I have no idea how close the superdome is to a water landing, but you would think that it would be far easier to ship people out via barge, than to fuck around with buses, that may only hold like 60-80 people. It is possible that the water is so fucked up with debris, to make this not work.

Just posted on Cnn.com...





Bush: 'Results are not acceptable'

Frustration builds amid New Orleans chaos



NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- President Bush told reporters on Friday that millions of tons of food and water are on the way to the people stranded in the wake of Hurricane Katrina -- but he said the results of the relief effort "are not acceptable."

"A lot of people are working hard to help those who've been affected, and I want to thank the people for their efforts," Bush said before leaving the White House for a tour of the devastated areas in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. "The results are not acceptable."

He is scheduled to take part in a briefing in Mobile, Alabama, before taking an aerial tour of that area and nearby Biloxi, Mississippi.

Bush then plans move on to view Louisiana hurricane damage from the air, flying over the city of New Orleans. He is scheduled to make a statement at the Louis Armstrong International Airport in New Orleans before returning to Washington Friday night.

At this point? Yes, that's exactly what needed to be done.


This is the big thing I'm personally torn about this morning. I think it's pretty safe to call me persistently pessimistic, but I'll admit that I've been surprised by how rapidly things deteriorated into full anarchy. I expected the looting, I expected the assaults among the locals, what I wouldn't have predicted accurately was the rapid escalation nor the degree of organization it appears to have. One clue to that may have been dropped by a state trooper my wife saw on FoxNews earlier this morning. (Paraphrasing, since I didn't see it) He said that the biggest crime problem in New Orleans right now is coming from three large gangs that they've been battling daily for the past 15 years.


Indeed, but on this one, I'm inclined to cash a reality check about it. IIRC, the evacuation plan was a 72 hour model, which only, what?, 36 hours or so actually took place? I'll withhold judgement, for now, on the adequacy of the plan until we can see what was called for & simply didn't have time to happen vs what wasn't planned for at all.



One of the most overlooked/ignored/white elephant in the room aspects of the whole situation.


Oddly enough, I knew about the Superdome's role in any disaster planning for more than a decade. It was something I learned from a lifelong NO resident that we knew. He laughed about it quite a bit, saying that "we'll be lucky if it doesn't collapse in that situation" and that there's absolutely no way it would handle any large amount of people safely for any length of time. He was just a regular guy, not any sort of official or anything, but watching this week unfold, he sure seemed to know what he was talking about.

From the sattelite photos, it looks like they have dammed up at least one of the canals into the city.

There's got to be a reason for that. It may be as simple as a length-of-time issue. I'm assuming lots of watercraft were either moved elsewhere, damaged, or destroyed.

The question was rhetorical. You may be right, but I have serious doubts that the person to whom I was posing the question would be willing to sign off on that.

Never thought about gangs.


Ah. Now that I think about, I believe you're correct on the 72-hour model.

People are not willing to "blame the victims," but come on. People were basically told, "Last one out of N.O., turn out the lights."

That lends a bit of support to my (admittedly 20/20 hindsight) thought that things might have been better if no "destinations of last resort" had been offered. It surely would have helped hammer home the message that nowhere in New Orleans should be considered to be safe.

Surprising comment from Ol' SkyDog:

The best 'net coverage I've seen has been wwltv. The shocker to me is that the second-best hasn't been one of the major news outlets. I've been consistently been getting more rapid updates and comprehensive 'net coverage on AJC.com :eek: than on cnn, foxnews, abcnews, cbsnews, or msnbc.

Is the water deep enough to handle the draft (right word? I'm not nautical) of anything large enough to be effective? And/or are the passages through the streets & such wide enough to handle such craft?

Oh, I'm sure the streets couldn't handle much more than a Sea-Do for any continual movement. Yeah, there are parts that are deep enough to handle larger craft, but you'd run into water only 1 to 3 feet deep in many places. I'm assuming the question was about bringing a barge onto the lake or the Mississippi.

My bad, I misunderstood the question / intent of the suggestion.

My guess would be that the biggest fly in that ointment is getting people from the 'dome to the barges/whatever.

Someone above insisted that nobody knew the Superdome could be damaged like it is. That's not true. I know I read before it hit that the Superdome was not designed to withstand winds over 100(?) mph. There was concern it would be damaged before people started getting seriously concerned about the human aspect.

As a park ranger I was involved in multiple mandatory hurricane evacuations on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. Keep in mind this is a situation perhaps more obviously dangerous than that of New Orleans (if that's possible): a narrow ribbon of islands with literally nothing to stop the storm surge from covering the entire place.

People never "got it." Locals and tourists together, they just never got it. This is a storm will 100+ mph winds and a massive wave of water that will cover the island and take whatever it wants with it. There will be no access in or out. This is a MANDATORY EVACUATION. No one can guarantee your safety. But...

"We're gonna ride the storm out. This is my home and I ain't leaving." Okay, buh-bye.

"I've never seen the ocean during a storm. We're gonna stay and watch." Okay, buh-bye.

"We've had reservations for months. I'm not just gonna throw away my $1000 house rental fee." Okay, buh-bye.

In the defense of some New Orleans tourists, the airlines cancelled a bunch of flights prior to the storm, and apparently many could not get transportation out of the city in time. But I think there's still many thousands of people who just shrugged off the threat, and now they are reaping the whirlwind.

Sucks to be a tourist...

Tourists realize they're afterthought


04:04 AM EDT on Friday, September 2, 2005

By ROBERT TANNER / AP National Writer

NEW ORLEANS — First the federal government took the buses they had hired to evacuate them.

Then their hotels turned them out onto the desolate streets.

They trudged for blocks to walk over a bridge, but officers wouldn't let them cross – and fired a few warning shots over their heads to convince them.

And the night was coming down.

Despairing, dozens of trapped tourists huddled on a downtown street corner and waited for dark.

"I grew up in an upper-middle class family. Street life is foreign to me," said Larry Mitzel, 53, of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. "I'm not sure I'm going to get out of here alive."

The fate of tourists in dozens of hotels here was caught up in the days of chaos and confusion that came after Hurricane Katrina's 145 mph winds.

Many smaller hotels shut down. The largest housed hundreds and hundreds of guests and took in refugees from the storm. How many remained Thursday was unclear.

Tourists and hotel managers alike condemned government officials for ignoring them.

"The tourists are an afterthought here," said Bill Hedrick of Houston, who came to town on business and was trapped with his wife and elderly mother-in-law.

"We're appalled," said Jill Johnson, 53, of Saskatoon. "This city is built on tourism and we're their last priority."

Peter Ambros, general manager of the Astor Crowne Plaza in the French Quarter, said, "Guests who bring business to the hotels are treated 10 times worse than the people at the Superdome."

He helped arrange the hiring of 10 buses to evacuate 500 guests from his and a nearby hotel – at a cost of $25,000.

Then the Federal Emergency Management Agency commandeered the buses and police told the guests to go to the nearby convention center, where a crowd left without food, water or security was growing angry.

Instead, the tourists – dragging their rolling luggage through broken glass, smashed bricks and trash – tried to cross a huge bridge blocks away.

They were turned back when another group trying to cross began to threaten the officers, said Whit Herndon, 32, of Jonesboro, Ark.

As night approached, the tourists stuck close together on a corner of the downtown waterfront and within sight of a police gathering point.

Officers brought them food and water and promised buses would come for them. Most prepared to sleep, sheltered by a concrete overhang.

The tourists put on a game face and prepared to sleep.

Ann Robertson, a 50-year-old vocational counselor from Nashville, Tenn., looked on the bright side. They had food, there was safety in numbers – but then she looked at the sky.

"I don't know," she said, "I never slept on the street before."

WSUCougar brings up another one of those points that isn't getting enough prominence IMO -- how many of these people now blaming the various governmental agencies for their problems chose to stay.

I don't have a figure ... but how many people are even asking the question?

And it all reminds me of a general question I meant to ask yesterday but never got around to -- anybody know how much authority local/state/federal officials had with regard to forceable evacuation before the storm actually hit? I'm under the impression that the imposition of martial law would grant much more leeway in that regard, but how much more is something I don't know.

While the "Superdome Plan" may have not gone exactly as hoped for and it sounded like it was "living hell", at the end of the day, the vast, vast, vast majority of those people lived. They survived the hurricane and the few days after. I wouldn't call the Superdome Plan a failure. The people there fared far better than the people who stayed in their homes.

Now THAT is predictable.

Give me a break.

This planning has been piss-poor. It's unacceptable. Even the President has acknowledged this.

The fact that 25,000 people (though I think it's closer to 100,00) stayed behind shouldn't be all that surprising. I honestly don't think "events that no one expected happened." I think there was reason to believe that what happened was expected.

Other than the evacuation order, I didn't hear of any sort of pre-planning. Any mobilization of rescue teams, FEMA teams, national guardsmen. No massing of supplies for the victims.

If this what you consider "good" preparation, then your standards are quite low and I am sure there are about 50,000 or so people that would disagree with you.

I believe CNN says the W Hotel in New Orleans is now on fire.

I don't have time to look up the articles now, maybe someone else does, but...

I have read several articles about the staging happening outside of New Orleans in preparation for the shelters.

Uh, no. He said the results are unacceptable, not the planning. That's an important distinction. You may think I'm splitting hairs on that one, but I'm quite sure his words were chosen carefully.

Fires...as if they don't have enough to worry about.

This photo is rather wicked-looking:

I don't know SD. Bush sucks at speaking off the cuff. Sounds like he pulled those words out of the air.

Wacky idea, borne of seeing a guy on the news just trying to let his family know he made it to Houston:

There's no shortage of cable channels with airtime to spare. Ditto the ability to add programming to XM & Sirius. How about somebody start rolling tape on the people in Texas, and the other shelters.

No interviewing, no polticizing, no grandstanding, just straight up name/neighborhood/location i.d.'s from the evacuees & maybe what relative(s) they're trying to let know they're alive. 60 seconds per person max maybe. Tape 'em, air 'em, loop 'em & let volunteers start compiling the lists. Do it all privately, off to the side, don't take up trained volunteer time with it. It'd give (IMO) at least some feeling of "trying" to the evacuees, something for them to do instead of just worry, it'd be at worst a well-intended attempt at putting some minds at ease, and it might just succeed. Something better than nothing.

Agreed. If that was a prepared speech, it was one of the worst in history. He just walked up there and said what he said. He stumbled twice as much as usual.

Yeah, sounds like a great idea. Do they have a list of all the people in the Astrodome on the Web yet? If not, it needs to be out there. Or at least searchable by people who are looking for a lost loved one.

convoy rolling. tons of school buses going into New Orleans right now. About time.

Looks like a whole bunch of crap is going into action now, maybe. About time if so.

edit-undola

Looks like snipers on top of those fire trucks.

Fire trucks from Los Angeles (apparently just drove themselves in) in large convoy, impressive sight & impressive effort on their part.

Somewhat serious looking guy holding what appears to be a shotgun sitting on top of the firetruck, perhaps revealing some of what's been holding up the arrival of some of the help.

FNC - Am I hearing this correctly? The leader of the Congressional Black Caucus is blaming the lack of relief efforts on the fact that it's black people who are suffering?

Edit - Jesse Jackson Jr. is there. That answers my question.