If we're going to talk up HOF things, why is Omar Vizquel an afterthought, and Ozzie Smith made it on the first ballot.

I think it was sackattack who said something like "Omar didn't do enough back flips"

Probably the same reason Jacoby Ellsbury would have been an All-Star back then.

Statistically Vizquel isn't in the same dimension as Ozzie.

Hm. That doesn't sound supportable.

Ozzie Smith is in on his defense alone, obviously.

They sure loved him back in the day. Can you imagine someone finishing runner-up in the MVP voting while hitting zero home runs and barely hitting .300 like Smith did in '87?

Really?

Defensive stats aren't as good as offensive stats going back before the +/- systems, but FRAA does a solid job of comparing players across eras defensively.

Ozzie's career FRAA: 388

Vizquel's career FRAA: -57


I'll have to see if I can find defensive win shares, but I know they have consistently pegged Vizquel as a good-very good defensive shortstop (and borderline gold glove level), but nowhere close to Ozzie's standards.

Oh, I thought you were speaking offensively. I'm willfully ignorant to defensive metrics because I haven't been convinced that they work.

Career Win Shares (includes offensive numbers) - Ozzie is at 325 and Vizquel is at 260 as of the beginning of last year. They're similar hitters so it should give a good idea the difference between the two defensively.

Dan Fox's simple fielding runs looks like this:

Ozzie Smith 199
Mark Belanger 198
Cal Ripken 165
Bert Campaneris 144
Omar Vizquel 140
Rick Burleson 123
Chris Speier 104
Roger Metzger 104
Alan Trammell 88
Rey Sanchez 88

Looking at just one can is where you get into trouble. You really have to see if there's a consensus across 2-3 or even more. Even the most generous advanced metrics have Vizquel as poor choice for the HoF and trailing Ozzie by a wide margin, though.

I could buy it. Where do you find career win shares data?

BBTF had a discussion last year comparing the two with win shares and several other metrics used throughout the comments.

BBTF's Newsblog Discussion :: Schulman: Vizquel builds strong resume, but is he first-ballot HOF pick?


Hardball times tracks win shares, but navigating that site looking for a specific stat is a pain in the ass. For Ozzie's numbers I was using Bill James abstract.

BREAKING NEWS: The Mets have hit a HR!!!! Wrights first HR in 100 ABs

3 Homers by the Phils...2 by the Mets in the middle of the 6th.

not to mention a ball of the wall by Sheff, who subsequently was thrown out at 2nd, and now one by Tatis, who apparently is still young enough to make it to 2nd on a ball off the wall.

1st and 2nd, no outs, down by 1 with Garret Anderson up. Then runner on 3rd with 2 outs. Yay for the shittiest starting outfielder in baseball. I can't imagine too many more useless players. An OPS of .647 and he's played in a majority of their games. Though "Frenchy" has an OPS of .616 in 55 games. I can't believe this team is .500 right now. At least Greg Norton gets the start at 1B who is 4-33 this season.

I'm not as mad as I was before since the Mets are up 6-5 now...but why the fuck do we even have tag plays if umpires make absolutely no effort to see if a catcher tags the runner before he slides over the plate? This "he's out if the ball beats him" is complete bullshit when the throw is in the dirt and the catcher is still cradling the ball.

God I hope Bay has better sense then to go there. His father would probably disown him too, as a lifelong Red Sox fan.

why is our backup-backup-SS a fucking GAMER!!!

GO LIL NICKY!!!

Seriously, even if he wasn't cradling the ball, he still slid under the tag and would have made it. But this is a great game tonight, I'll give Rollins credit, having an awful season but leads off the 9th with a base hit, then has a great takeout slide to keep them out of the game ending DP.

Agreed, it sucks when a player you hate so much makes such an awesome, old school play.

Dobbs punched out. Nice job K-Rod.

The Giants scored 9 runs. I'm worried that the apocalypse is coming.

So I'm trying to wait until for the 10-0 A's/Twins game to end so I can put in my streak for the cash game for tomorrow. I figure it will just be 5 minutes but here we are over half an hour later and it's 10-5 with the bases loaded and Joe Nathan just came in

SI

Are the Cards going to make a move? Or are the going to sit on their hands and watch the season fade away and then watch LaRussa leave, followed closely by Pujols?

I hate the new GM.

Via Rob Neyer's blog, looks like the Yankee Stadium HR mystery is all but solved:




As Neyer points out, a few weeks ago Cashman said this:


Cashman's a smart guy, so he chose his words carefully. He knows the dimensions are not the same.

This isn't really news...locally at least. NY papers, sports talk radio, etc first started talking about the entire stadium not being the same size the day the "wind tunnel" idea was brought up.

That was national, too, but that was just a bunch of people saying "the stadium seems smaller." Short of actually walking off the distances and doing a hands-on comparison, this is the first real study or analysis of the two stadiums which seems to confirm what people "felt."

First to worst in 5 1/2 weeks. Congrats, Royals. We, the loyal followers, knew you could do it. :D

Welcome to that thing we've been talking about for a while now...sample size.

Not trying to get picky, but the different curvature of the wall was brought up too back then. That's something that can also be observed. But you're right, that isn't an actual analysis.

Phils-Mets was a good game (bad outcome, IMO :p ) but I can't believe the ump missed that play at the plate. Ruiz is a darn good catcher at blocking the plate, but he didn't do it that time.

This is awesome...not because I like ARod or anything, but mainly because I think tabloid crap about sports figures is something I'd like to see less of, not more, and because the more reviews I read about this book and learned of Selena Roberts' knowledge of the game and the basis for her conclusions in this book, the more I realized this thing was a piece of crap. She not only had no real journalistic back-up for most of the "facts" she cited, but she mis-cited basic facts about baseball in general and had a pop psychologist's take on why ARod supposedly did the things she claimed he did. Getting the steroid scoop is one thing, but making up or trying to connect the dots on innuendo and third-hand information and passing it off as facts is another.

No one looks worse than the publisher.

great win for the Sox last night. Beckett saddled up and looked as good as any pitcher in baseball this year (back to back with Lester's great outing it was quite nice), Ortiz managed to look somewhat like his old self, etc

I'm glad as well - plus Selena Roberts was one of the Duke scandal reports who refused to apologize. Would you believe - there's even trash the American public wouldn't buy. :D

I saw this on a Reds blog.

Nationals pitcher Shairon Martis is quite possibly the luckiest pitcher in MLB.

ERA = 5.31
BBs to Ks = 1-1
Team record = 15-41
Martis record = 5-1

Anybody got a couple of spare outfielders the Braves could borrow?

Top half of the order tonight through 8 innings: 5-14
Bottom half of the order (Anderson, Norton, Francouer, Johnson): 0-12

Which explains why they trail Pittsburgh 3-1.

And 3 of the Braves starting pitchers have a higher batting average than tonight's fill-in 1B Greg "I'm a waste of a roster spot" Norton.

Garrett Anderson just went yard

That has got to be worth noting

That's absolutely notable, as it gets his average up to .190 for the month of June and is his first XBH in over a week. Any hit from him is notable, if only for it's rarity.

After leaving 6 on base I suppose I could lend you Brandon Moss.

Doesn't make any sense to bring in your fastest runner and then give up an out bunting him over to 2nd with Melky Cabrera. Girardi was playing for the tie on the road and now Teixera doesn't get a chance to bat with a man on base. I complained about Girardi bunting too much earlier this year and I will keep doing it when he makes horrible decisions.

So is Wang officially going to AAA now? 2.2 IP 6 H 3/3 BB/K 4ER. ERA up (down?) to 14.34.

Oh, and I agree with J-lov. Girardi and the Yankess is the worst possible fit.

They can't move Wang down to AAA, he's out of options. His velocity and movement on his sinker were there, but his command was not. Basically, they brought him back too quick when he was throwing rehab starts earlier this year. His next start is against the Nationals which is good. They'll give him more time to get it together.

I think Wang is toast.

Verlander with another filthy start, this time a CG effort vs the White Sox. This guy has just flat out turned it on.

Amazing stuff, can't always control it is my read of the guy; I always think he's a guy who if he cut 1 BB/9, becomes a Cy Young level pitcher.

Yep. He struggled early and said he mentally wasn't ready and he needed to fix that so now on game days he doesn't talk to anyone and just sits with his headphones on and ignores everyone. Since then he has just been dealing, but as amazing as the stretch he is on now is, he needs to do it all year and be a legit ace before I feel comfortable annointing him as such.

Dola, just saw this:

Verlander, since April 27th, is 7-0 with a 1.10 ERA. Unreal.

Eh, I guess the salary is only $5m and he's still under club control for 2? more years, so he likely wouldn't clear waivers. They at least have to consider moving him back to the bullpen, unless they think piggybacking Hughes like this works well for either.

Plus, somehow the Yankees are still only 1GB, despite being 0-7 vs. Boston and in the toughest division in baseball (4 of the top 5 teams by Pythagorean wins).

There's no way the Yankees release Wang. I think he gets at least one more start vs. the Nationals next week and if he struggles there I think they put him into the bullpen. Nothing else they can really do with him at this point.

No need to panic yet, as you say the Yanks are only 1 game out of first with the pitching matchup skewed in their favor tomorrow. Terrible record vs. Boston, but before this series they hadn't lost 2 straight since A-Rod came back 5 weeks ago. It's going to be a great race in that division all year.

They'll switch him and Hughes if he can't get it together. Of course, after one bullpen appearance, everyone was raving about Hughes, so now that's the new discussion point - should Hughes take over the spot everyone wants Joba to have? If he's not going to pitch, sure; if he's going to replace Wang in the rotation and start regularly, no.

Now why can't Meche pitch like THAT more often. Good lord.

Greinke start will be interesting today. Had his worst outing last time out. We'll see if he gets back on track today.

Yes, they'll think it's the beginning of his "power surge" and start giving him even more ABs.

::raises hand::

I thought Wang looked much better last night. Results weren't that much better, but his movement and velocity were much improved from what he was throwing earlier. I think they've got to give him at least one more - I wouldn't be surprised if he's about to turn the corner.

Ah Dusty. Last night Cordero had come in to finish up a 2-0 victory when the rains hit. After a two hour plus rain delay Dusty inexplicably puts Cordero back in the game. Cordero promptly gives up two runs and the game goes into extra innings.

Yes, that made no sense. I went to bed before the resumption of the game, safe in believing that Dusty would just run Masset out there, and finish things off. Are saves really that important to Cordero? Or is Dusty just THAT stupid?

The Yanks are pissing me off. All this money they spend and still can't beat the Sox. Put Chamberlain back in the bullpen...and stop relying on ARod to come through for us in the clutch. :banghead:

As a Sox fan I wholeheartedly approve of your plan to take your second best pitcher out of the rotation and start shitting on your best hitter.

Yeah, I don't get how the solution to 1 bad starting pitcher is to take a good starting pitcher out of the rotation. That leaves you with 2 holes, not 1.

The math goes something like this...6 IP >>>>>>> 1 IP

In addition, the way they've handled Phil Hughes the last year and a half has been retarded at best.

Oh God, not Joba to the bullpen again. I thought this had been put to rest. He's too valuable in the rotation to put in the bullpen. The bullpen hasn't even been the problem the last 2 games vs. Boston and they've been much improved in the last month. Wang and Burnett go less than 3 innings and you want to take Joba out of the rotation, it makes no sense and it isn't going to happen.

First mistake: preferring him to Santana.

Keeping Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and another prospect might turn out better for the Yankees in the long run though.

Making the trade also might have won them a WS last year.

LOL @ That. They could've had Santana for nothing and didn't pull the trigger. Plus it wouldn't have stopped them from still pursuing CC.

Right now Hughes, even at his max potential, is not going to be nearly as good as Santana, and Melky is meh. He's the worst CF in the AL East. Now granted, their is a lot of talent in CF in the AL East, but he isn't very good.

They'd have been better off getting Santana and Mike Cameron, or hell, even try dealing for Aaron Rowand since he'd give you what Melky does. When you have Santana on the mound every 5th day, you're going to win more often then not.

For the Yanks, not pulling the trigger didn't make any sense.

Even INCLUDING weekly NFL threads, this is the craziest shit you've ever posted.

That move was so dumb that it's taken the heat off of him for bunting with men on first and third with no outs.

Yep.

Seriously, Melky is in the bottom half of the best AL CF's and he is not going to ever get much higher then that.

I won't even go into Hughes because while I think he as potential, he benefited nicely from being a Yankee prospect and the hype the media attached to him.

Agreed on both counts.

Funny also that the media seems to be hyping the Yanks ability to work a trade for Mauer using prospects - I haven't looked at farm systems depth recently but my impression was that they didn't have much (despite Cashman's efforts to rebuild it).

Their farm system is "mid-table" I would say. Only Jackson looks to be an impact player in the near future. They've got a lot of arms, but who knows if any of them are any good.

I laugh when I hear people try to claim that Melky + Robinson Cano are top-tier players. Neither of them scares me at all.

Well they have Austin Jackson who seems legit, but I mean everyone was praising Jose Tabata as the second coming and he ended up in a deal for Nady after he gained like 40 lbs and lost his ability to hit.

Delin Betances could be legit but he has durability concerns.

There isn't anyone in that farm system that I think people would clamor for.

I doubt Mauer ever got dealt but if he did there are probably 10 teams with way more top end guys in the minors then the Yanks have.

They always seem to have a lot of arms that get hyped beyond belief and stupid teams always seem to fall for the hype and trade them players for pitchers that end up being turds.

It happens far more often (and more high-profile) with the Yankees then with other teams I'd argue.

Exactly. And yet the media seems to hype it up like the Yankees are the only logical destination and they have all the pieces that the Twins would obviously want. It's kind of :lol:

It's only been a year and a half. Maybe the Yanks stop dicking around with Hughes & give the kid some job security and he becomes a top 10 starter that he has the talent to become. Maybe Johan blows out his arm or something.

Not likely mind you, but possible.

EDIT: Mauer's not going anywhere.

You can have your maybes, I'll take reality.

eta: Let's go back to the original statement: "might turn out better for the Yankees." Let's say Hughes does exactly what you say and becomes a Top 10 starter. Well, that's worse than what Santana is. So let's bump that up and say he becomes Johan Santana v2. Ignoring those short odds for a second, how does it work out better for the Yankees (especially Cashman and Girardi, who will both be gone with another failure) to be getting that down the road compared to both last year and today when they are 9 years removed from a title and are getting desperate?

One thing I've noticed is that in trades, it seems that the Yankees have to pay one price, but the going rate for other teams is not as substantial. For instance, the Yankees might have to take on an additional financial part that another team wouldnt. Now that may account for the fact that Yankee prospects are overhyped, and I guess I could see that. It's just my loose theory on the matter.

Melky is having a much better year than a couple of the other CFs in the AL East but I guess that means nothing. He's only 24, Hughes is 22, and you're writing these guys off like they're nobodies. All I said was that the trade might be better for the Yankees in the long run, it's too early to say. Now it looks like a mistake, I agree. But 5-10 years from now those two plus the other prospect in the deal might be very good players.

The Yankees also pay the price for giving in so much (to players mostly). Nobody takes "final offer" and "we won't go that high" seriously from them.

Melky Cabrera has had 1600 PA at an OPS+ of 86.

I think he is what he is. It's a total tossup between him and Ellsbury for the bottom in the AL East, and Jacoby's defense would make me consider him over Melky.

I deal exclusively in reality. Dismissing something unlikely as impossible is a fool's game.

BTW, the "other prospect" you keep referring to was Ian Kennedy. Kennedy was pumped up beyond belief despite having the most average stuff you'll see. Earned his spot in the rotation after being deemed too valuable to part with for Santana, and promptly got lit up. Before he was diagnosed with an anyeurism, he was dominating AAA for the third straight year; that's not a sign of an AAAA player at all or anything.

:D

SI

Ellsbury also has game-changing speed and fewer PA's too.

988 PA's with an OPS+ of 92
Total Fielding Runs above average (per year) over career +14.2

Melky

1789 PA with an OPS+ of 86
Total Fielding Runs above average (per year) over career +4.8

No, No, No! It is a hell of a lot easier (and cheaper) to find someone to fill the 8th inning spot than it is to find a good starter.

Yeah, he's been putting up sick stats for 2 months now

SI

What about the 9th inning spot? One more year on Rivera's deal, some slippage in his performance...

I have been very disappointed with the Yankee prospects, especially Kennedy and Hughes. Will they turn into something someday? Who knows? I do know that they face incredible pressure playing for that team though, unlike what any other players face in MLB. If guys like Giambi, Teixera, Sabathia, and Burnett have a tough time with the pressure in NY, it should be expected that really young players like Kennedy/Hughes/Cabrera will have an even more difficult time of it.

With that being said, I would have preferred to see them pick up Santana last year instead. But, they didn't so now we just need to see if these prospects will turn into something or get traded anyway...

always an excuse. cry me a river. either they can perform or they can't.

the red sox players face an equivelent level of scrutiny, if not in sheer number of media outlets certainly in intensity of media coverage and fan-base. as do cubs prospects from a passionate fanbase. as do mets prospects. and you don't hear fans of any of those teams making the excuse about the media pressure on the prospects when they don't pan out as much as they were hyped to.

I sincerely doubt that the fan/media pressure for Sox players is anywhere near what Yankees players face everyday of their playing career in NYC.

The Mets have always been second-fiddle in NYC. The Cubs are perennial losers with very loyal fans. Do the Sox face high expectations? Of course they do. But to say that they face the same pressure every day as the Yankees is just naive.

Not only that but Hughes is apparently a bust 30 games into his career. Greg Maddux was carrying around an ERA in the mid 5's 30 games into his career and he turned out ok. People expecting immediate results from prospects are almost always doomed to disappointment.

SI

A lot of talk about the Yankees and Red Sox on here....Feels like I turned on ESPN.

How would you know?

:lol:

Well said, sir. Well said. I will now return the thread to its regularly scheduled discussion.

Yes, Royals time!

Can I make one more Yankees-related comment?

Wow.

:eek:

:D

What a fuckin joke. I don't know what you hear down in Pennsylvania via Idaho via Michigan, but the pressure put on these guys by the media and fans is non-existent. A team like the Yankees is the perfect place for one of these kids to come up. A guy like Hughes gets to come up last year and be the 5th starter on a rotation anchored by guys making a combined $100 million. A hitter gets to come in, bat 7th or 8th, and get protected by the likes of Matsui, Posada, Swisher, Nady, etc and is on a team where the fans die for an excuse to boo the best hitter of the generation.

How is that anywhere near the pressure faced by a kid who comes up during a team's continued shitty run and is expected to be the savior of the franchise? Think Evan Longoria had it easy just because it was Tampa? Kazmir? Think it was easy for Alex Gordon to come up? You really think the pressure Austin Jackson will face next year even remotely approaches what Strasburg will be going through in Washington?

yes I do