Let the aggressive oppression of the South BEGIN!


That's an argument that your statements appear to support. Yet...the war appears to rage on, even if it's in much subtler form today. The overall sentiment and ideals that lead to it's beginnings still exist. Funny how that works.

I'm not sure the "war of northern aggression" is a good analogy. IMO it actually lends to my argument re: Palestinians of facing reality, getting your "country" (even though its not everything you want), and moving on.

The south wanted own country, the north smacked the south and won the war. The south didn't like it, didn't have a choice and was "subjugated".

Approx 150 years later here we are, all happy in the south, dominating football & basketball (and unhealthy eating but that's a different story).

What do you think is the realistic solution to the Palestinian plight? Keep on holding out and fighting for something better?

Wouldn't mind reading more on this if you can provide the link?

So the head of the Methodist Church called on Jeff Sessions. a Methodist to

"immediately reverse this decision"



http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...gration-policy


Several Democrats eventually got into a detention center in New Jersey. Some more expected to get into one in Texas:


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/39...tention-center

Roger Stone and Michael Caputo forced to reveal they did indeed have contact with Russians during the campaign and did not tell Congress this. They both told Mueller and are now full conspiracy on it saying it was an FBI informant.


Trump associate Roger Stone reveals new contact with Russian national during 2016 campaign - The Washington Post

https://worldview.stratfor.com/artic...g-demographics

The quote comes from this report that is largely talking about problems with the orthodox communities. There's a ton of stuff out there on the challenges for Israel regarding its demographics.

Except they really weren't. They were given their lives, homes, property and largely forgiven and brought back into the fold to be made whole. What you're describing would be a the complete subjugation of the south, which might be the way those from the South see it, but a truly domineering champion would have wiped them off the map. That is sort of what you're saying though isn't it? This story would be completely different if they had truly been subjugated. Lost everything, kept as second hand citizens, and forced to stay in that role. This conversation would be very different.



Progress doesn't come all at once. Those who try and achieve the Holy Grail of all they seek rarely find it. Even MLK recognized that there were achievable goals to be had and when to take what's there in order to regroup and press again in the future. The Palestinian flaws are in their all or nothing stance regarding what they feel the answer is. Extremism in the dogma, eons of shifting conflict, lack of natural resources, the list goes on and on. The cultural dynamics of the region have been set in stone for centuries. Israel pushing a finger in every wound whenever they get a chance doesn't help matters much at all. Agreements not to expand settlements, or bad faith negotiating, or a lack of empathy for others massively complicate matters.

There is plenty wrong on both sides. We love an underdog in the US. We frequently cheer the plucky team that comes back against all odds. We relate to a rival who finally get's his own after years of total domination. We understand thanks to BF Skinner that rewards only need to be intermittent to solidify habit forming behavior. We of all people should understand the mindset behind the Palestinians after all this time. We'd be doing the same thing. The pragmatist in me says that there is obviously a middle ground that can be found here, and I think that has been the most vexing thing for US leadership. That neither side is able to come to a conclusion that will benefit everyone for the long run. Both sides are just too hesitant to lose face to ever go down in history books as being the one leader who failed (by giving anything up).

Preach it, PilotMan!

Yup, I agree. You had brought up the civil war and I said it wasn't a good analogy and shouldn't have tried to elaborate.


And here we are 50+ years later. What is there to show for it?

Palestinians have moved the needle and have made progress since those early years (e.g. some independence in West Bank, recognition as a state etc.) but the Israeli's have moved their needle far more.

The 4 options are (1) negotiate (2) keep on fighting while your support base decreases (3) status quo with incremental improvements (4) status quo without improving your situation (Gaza Strip).

It seems the Palestinians are doing #3 with some #2 but there is a good chance #4 will happen.


Interesting statement but not sure.

To your point, you have the Revolutionary War that shows this "spirit".

Then you have the Civil War that had the South/Palestinians surrender at Appomattox after fighting a war and coming to realize they couldn't win.

Admittedly, neither are great examples. What is your rationale/examples?


I agree. In theory, you want a "win-win" in business negotiations. Unfortunately, I don't think this holds true here, someone will "lose more".

So after 50+ years of great idealism but not much happening, lots of people suffering, and regressed/declining negotiating position (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here), I think the Palestinians should accept reality, negotiate, and move on and try make their lives better.

It sounds as if you are advocating for keep holding out for hope and keep plugging. I am not.

Anyone have any thoughts on the border separation policy that is the fault of the Democrats even though it isn't actually happening, except it is actually happening, but the bible says it's okay?

Don't worry, I'm sure Space Force will take care of this.

So, you're cool with the south keeping statues of Robert E. Lee, or nah?

Also the Democrats want open borders so bad they are willing to enforce border policies that separate parents from kids.

I can see Sessions saying it.

I lost all respect for Sarah Huckabee parroting it.

Couldn't fathom going through this as a kid. I hated when my parents would go out of town for a couple days and leave us at the Grandparents.

https://www.propublica.org/article/c...gration-policy

Kyle Griffin on Twitter: """I'm going to take your child to get bathed." That's one we see again and again. ... The child goes off, and in a half an hour, twenty minutes, the parent inquires, "Where is my five-year-old?" ... And they say, "You won’t be seeing your child again."" https://t.co/syfG0u7UL2"

This seems like it can't be real...

Of all the stomach churning things this administration has done, this is by far the most visceral. I’m sure there is a portion of his base that has so dehumanized migrants/refugees that this won’t affect them, but that can’t be more then 10-12% right? … right?

A White House official tells @jeffzeleny that @PressSec didn't want to do the briefing today amid questions on child separation policy, so @SecNielsen is being flown in from New Orleans to take questions.

— Oliver Darcy (@oliverdarcy) June 18, 2018

Lardass too big of a coward to answer questions today

Maybe 28%.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/polit...val/index.html

Republicans are 58% in favor...

Resign or stfu

I think they know now that with every picture, every audio, every video that this is a PR battle they will not win, and finally shake some of their base, especially evangelicals from their grasp.

Just mandate some church attendance and the evangelicals will be fine.

Why would you think this? He campaigned on this stuff. His Chief of Staff was on TV saying this is what they were going to do.

DHS Secretary says he's considering separating immigant children from their parents to deter illegal immigration https://t.co/VI7iRONztC

— The Situation Room (@CNNSitRoom) March 6, 2017

This becomes more and more like the Simspons Monorail episode every day.

While everyone focuses on this, Wilbur Ross' grift is going well. Some good reporting by Forbes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalex.../#3b685e877e87

the_donald is currently full of posts highlighting crimes illegal immigrants have committed in the past. Fox News top story is currently about James Comey's e-mails. A Fox News story further down appears to be about administration officials "striking back" to defend the policy.

I mean we had a bunch of kids slaughtered in a high school a few months back and they decided the bad guys were the kids who were shot at and wanted to not have other kids shot at.

Heck, one of the talking points this morning was that these immigrant kids were crisis actors.

As it turns out, we were the shithole country all along.

I love you to pieces, man, but you're just dead wrong on this one.

Given your never-flagging kindness, generous disposition, and continued belief in the core goodness of people, you probably can't see it any other way. It's one of the things I admire about you.

I just don't think the evangelicals of your imagination exist any longer. That ship sailed with Ralph Reed and the Christian Coalition in the early 90s. The evangelical bloc of today has shown us who they are by their actions, and it's time we started believing them.

It's one of the reasons I don't call myself evangelical any longer.

My Facebook feed is full of angry white men posting shit like "abortions have separated 63 million children from their parents since Roe v. Wade and you didn't care about that".

Also, this one 5 times:


And this:


I'd ask when they stopped teaching logical fallacies in high school, but I went to school with most of these guys, so I know the answer.

There are some true-believers who do tons of good in their life. But a big chunk of the Evangelical crowd doesn't care about the poor or needy. They're concerned with guns, tax cuts, and taking out their anger that no one wanted to fuck them in high school on today's women.

I mean the Pro-Life movement has been against a lot of policies that would reduce abortions.

Will be interesting to see if this goes through. Not sure Trump wants to fight it as he got the trademarks for Ivanka that he wanted initially. Doubt China is going to revoke them now.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/senate-...ban-1529361710

The funny thing is that my personal experience tells me this isn't true. One-on-one, the people I went to church with were very caring and helpful and kind. They volunteered, formed food pantries, donated their time and financial resources.

It's just that they turned into assholes when they opened their mouths about the general topic of helping. That's when it became about taxes and crime and guns. Eventually, I just had to conclude that there's a ton of resentment that goes along with feeling obligated to be God's volunteer.

But I also think there's an element of being perfectly willing to help people who you want to help and not wanting to help people who you don't think deserve it. Sort of the same way I watched people rant about the evils of divorce and/or abortion until it was their son or daughter (or themselves) who was in an abusive relationship or decided to suction out a kid. Then it was time for compassion and forgiveness.

I get it. My dad was a minister most of the time I was growing up. I know that churches are full of imperfect people. I don't think any of this sort of hypocrisy between the message and the practice is new. We just now live in a world where people don't have the good sense to keep their loud-mouthed prejudices (not necessarily racial) in the inside vest pocket of their Sunday suit like they used to.

This so many times.


I'm generally Pro-Life, but I strongly believe in preventive measures such as birth control, etc., to prevent unwanted pregnancies before they happen. If people really cared about reducing abortions and the effects that they have, why wouldn't you be for birth control? (Of course, I already know the answer to that.)

I agree with this.

And I don't think it either or re:


There are many Christians/Evangelicals etc. that do good but there are times when they don't care about the poor or needy. They are imperfect and/or they probably think (to above post) that some "don't deserve it".

We all differ some on "who deserves or not".

What do you think that answer is? It's not obvious from your post, at least to me.

I'm good with 1. In Virginia.

I'm advocating as everyone has for years, for the sides to be able to be courageous, work toward trust, and forged bold solution. I'm not for the current path where one sideis declared winners and the other "subjugated " to rule.

I know. Seems they decided it was incredibly wealthy people who deserves it as seen by the recent tax cut. Or the bank bailouts. Or the corporate welfare.

The Evangelical stuff is a scam. They proved it when they went on about "family values" for decades and then elected a twice divorced philanderer who bragged about wanting to get his wife to abort his child.

It's just a bullshit way of pretending to have the high ground without actually having to be moral.

::: looks around for the person you described ::: :D


It's hard when you've been raised in a Christian family (Lutheran) where my Dad never said an evil word to anyone, and a mother who donated her time to soup kitchens, and other charities through the Church to not expect any Christian soul to be the same way, but even in my own family there are some "angry white men". so I know that what you say is true. I gave up on religion a long time ago, even before I realized I was gay and saw how most religions view it. But I still think there is a core goodness in many people, regardless of religion or lack thereof, and at times like this, it shines through. So sue me :)

Because they don't care about abortions. They care that women are having sex.

It hasn't worked for 50+ years and it hasn't worked when the US paid attention to it. I hope it works in the near future but I just don't see it as the Palestinians probably have less bargaining position than before (RM note about population notwithstanding).

Hypothetical question - if in 2068, the situation is still pretty much as is, would you think that maybe the Palestinians should have negotiated for a non-contiguous Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its co-capital? e.g. accepting what I consider to be reality and they should move on the best they can.

I'm just wondering if there is an upper limit here.

Maybe its how one defines Evangelical. I assume you are referring to the latter.

Are You An Evangelical? Are You Sure? : NPR

When do we open District 9?

Federal Judge strikes down Kris Koback's voter registration law in Kansas and orders him to take 6 hours of legal education on "federal or Kansas civil rules of procedure or evidence.”


http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...istration-case


In other news Kobach is running for governor of kansas.

An American and former CIA engineer was arrested today and charged with leaking classified info to Wikileaks:


http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...information-to

This. They want control of women, so they say, "You can't have abortions," but "you can't use birth control either." They want women to have 0% control of their reproductive rights.

Maybe I'm influenced by the fact that I had a very pro-life mom(she wouldn't even allow our cat to have an abortion), but that is very much a myth spread by liberals.

How do you explain the approx 38% of women that say it should be illegal or greatly restricted? This is not an insignificant %.

I do think many women honestly struggle with this issue but ultimately believe in anti-abortion (or greatly restricted) because they have moral, ethical and religious concerns and/or believe in personal responsibility and accountability.

I don't think its fair to paint with a broad brush the 38% as being naive and manipulated by a political party.

Every major Pro-Life organization in this country has taken a stand against contraceptives or has actively fought to decrease funding for them. That's not a myth, it's reality.