Let's examine that a bit. In this case, you're proposing that ranking be done based on unnecessary deaths from Covid - and of course we would wish to include other deaths that are indirectly caused by that due to lack of medical access when hospitals are full, etc. So let's assume those indirect deaths and the covid deaths that aren't preventable have been a wash. That's definitely not the case, but I'll stipulate it for the purpose of being overly charitable to your position. We're now approach a million Covid US deaths, so we'll call that our baseline number. It's a nice round one for comparison.

What other examples do we have of people not preventing preventable deaths? We could easily discuss war or many other topics which would dwarf the covid number, but one fairly non-controversial example is global poverty. It has been a number of decades since there was any reasonable excuse for allowing wide-spread global poverty to continue. Certainly at least since the 1950s developed, rich countries have had the ability to eliminate that scourge if we chose for, relative to the scale and scope of the program, an extremely small hit to our comfortable prosperity. Did we? Of course not. We didn't care enough. Oh we did the odd telethon and drop-in-the-bucket levels of foreign aid, but nothing even remotely approximating a serious effort.

Over time the situation has improved drastically, but even so as of less than a decade ago 80% of the world's population lived on less than $10 a day, 15% or so on less than $2 a day, 22,000 children died daily according to UNICEF estimates because of poverty, over a third of the world did not have basic sanitation, and so on. We could continue citing stats here till the cows come home, but let's just focus on the estimated number of children dying, and completely ignore adults for the time being.

To equal the one million Covid-related deaths discussed above would take a month and a half. We could also note that if we want to get upset about something Covid-related, we should get upset about our failure to do as the WHO recommended and prioritize first doses to foreign countries above boosters for Americans. But just to stick with this comparison, you could even assume that every single worldwide death of Covid is blameable on those who don't take the vaccine and it is till not even in the same discussion as the volume of poverty-related deaths in the poor nations of the world that we have accepted and done almost nothing about for decade after decade after decade because we just couldn't be bothered.

This is our fault as people who live in gross indulgence by any relevant historical and/or global measure. And by comparison we haven't got a leg to stand on. The Covid pandemic is not even worth being mentioned in the same sentence as the level of suffering that we have glibly tolerated. As a result, any moral judgement we may wish to make starts with a mirror. This idea that the supposed indifference to others by people who don't take the vaccine is some new, stunning development is ludicrous on its face.

If we could have drastically reduced and eventually eliminated global poverty just by getting a shot, and people didn't, that'd be pretty fucked up.

I might even say something mean about someone who made that selfish choice. The horrors!

I'm not a great person or anything, but I do a lot more than just get a shot to try to help the less fortunate. A shot would be the least I could do if that was an option. A no-brainer. But that's too much to ask for the truly selfish people. The worst of the worst.

If we had spent the same amount of resources fighting global poverty as we have Covid, adjusted down for inflation, relative value to the economy at the time, all of that, it would have made a dramatic difference. So yes, all of that ends in the same place. We didn't - and still don't - care enough collectively to do it.

We don't care enough about global poverty. But the anti-vaxxers care the least. The least is asked of them. They still don't want to help. That's what makes them the worst people.

That just doesn't make sense. It's a conclusion driving the bus. If I take a vaccine but am in general a jerk to others and selfish with my money etc., compared to someone who doesn't take the vaccine but generally treats people well, donates more to charity than I do, etc, who has the more negative impact on the world?

It's one dimension we can use to measure in this direction, but it's only one. With others that overwhelm its impact. So no, 'anti-vaxxers are the worst people' is not a supportable blanket statement, even leaving aside the differences in motivation that are impossible to know.

As said, works great if your goal is to demonize others whose behavior makes you mad. Works horribly if your goal is to rationally assess the situation.

I don't have time or energy in my life to rationally access everything and seek deeper discourse with people I find abhorrent. That's great if you do. Didn't someone once challenge you and ask whether you would have friendships and rational productive discourse with KKK members about their views and you said of course you would? I may be thinking of someone else. I'm not interested in doing that. I'm not interested in debating and seeking rational discourse about the ethics of adults' sexual relationships with minors with a NAMBLA member. I don't feel I'm required to do that. I don't feel I'm required to do that with anti-vaxxers either. It's an easy litmus test to determine whether they have any value to me at all as person or someone I want to spend any time engaging with on that issue, or any issue of substance, or share any part of myself with.

My napkin math says that for the cost of the F-35 stealth fighter program, we could give a cherry poptart to every person in the world every day for almost two years.

It goes back to the point about civility and building civilizations. We all have ideas about which issues are important and why. But those often differ.

It's when we allow ourselves to get so caught up in our specific morality that we give ourselves permission to call someone immoral or an idiot that we lose our ability to reach each other.

With the COVID issue, like many issues involving science that few of us understand on a molecular level, I think the best way to have influence is honestly communicating the latest studies and aggregate analyses, calmly responding to questions that might seem dumb or might seem trolling.

Once we permit ourselves to "go nuclear" on the dissent, we're part of the problem rather than part of the solution. I think the media's done that. I mentioned the electrician who worked on my house a couple of months ago - I don't think he's immoral or a bad person or stupid. But he does not trust the media or the government one tiny bit, so he thinks the vaccine is harmful. He's closed off.

That's unfortunate, but I think while he might or might not be causing harm through his views (it's entirely possible he has natural immunity without even knowing it, and/or has never spread COVID), it's the lack of civility out there that prevented us from reaching him.

In my opinion, and it's just mine, those out there who lose that veneer of civility are responsible for as much harm as anyone.

It's unfortunate that social media, made even more essential by COVID, makes it so easy to be anonymous and uncivil. You can write things to people that you would never say to them in person. One, for fear of starting a fistfight. But two, because standing in front of someone physically is a reminder of their humanity. You read their facial expressions, their reactions to you, their tone of voice; you can communicate quickly and more effectively.

As an aside, this is part of why you might call me anti-mask (I think it's a more nuanced argument). Kids need to learn to read facial expressions - that takes a long, long time. They need face-to-face socialization and there's a huge cost to closing the schools or making them wear masks in schools. I am hearing impaired myself, and I did not realize how much I depend on facial expressions to "tune in" on voices. I don't read lips, but I really struggle to understand someone who is wearing a mask until I can reliably sort out the pieces of the noises they're making from the environment around them as part of a continual voice.

Would you engage in that level of thoughtful resigned discourse with a proud antisemite? To hear where he's coming from? To reach common ground? Maybe you're part of the problem if you're too mean to them and don't assume validity in their position. Maybe it's really your fault than anti-Semitism exists because you're too mean about it and you're not willing to give them a big enough platform so they feel validated about their views.

Edit: If you think that's distinguishable, you're admitting there's a line somewhere. And for some of us, more and more mainstream voices and major politicians are crossing that line all the time. Imagine how concerning that is. And the response is that we just have to accept it and be nicer about it and that it's kind of our fault it happens at all.

You see, we agree. That's exactly the point I'm making. How does someone allow himself to become an anti-semite? At what point does he or she lose the ability to see people of Jewish heritage as fellow human beings?

Of course I'd be willing to have a calm discussion with a bigot. I have no tolerance for the views themselves, but I do have an understanding of the underlying issues. If I can't calmly relate why I am against bigotry, then absolutely I am part of the problem.

Would you say the Jewish people cause or aggravate anti-Semitism because they don't seek out enough rationale discourse on the subject?

No. I wouldn't. I was reading a very interesting essay just a couple of hours ago from Coleman Hughes about Black History Month. His point was that Jewish people have done very well to illustrate the positives about their contributions to the world, and what he loved about the spirit of Black History Month was that it had the same approach.

It's not so much an aggravation, but an unwillingness to challenge that causes problems. If we don't speak out because we're afraid those who disagree with us will be uncivil, then do we bear a certain responsibility for problems?

Maybe. The "heckler's veto" is often out there. But we can't stop trying and we can't lose sight of what's good within ourselves.

I guess that's admirable, but I don't think I'm morally required to do the same. There's a lot of shit I want to do that I don't find time for, "having a calm discussion with a bigot" isn't a big priority. There's so many non-bigots in my life I don't have as much time to spend with as I'd like.

I don't think you're morally required to do so, either. And that doesn't necessarily mean you're part of the problem.

I feel happier challenging myself not to get stuck in a philosophical rut, because my own disability isolates me from so much in life. It helps me to remember that everyone has to decide for themselves what's moral.

So that leads us, naturally, to try and figure out what's more important in life. What positions do we feel are so out there that we don't trust the morality of those who hold them?

We might well, then disagree on what's bad enough to warrant inclusion on such a list. I think bigotry belongs there. I also think those who are truly bigoted probably can't participate in that calm discussion. I had that experience not that long ago with a minister who happens to be in my family. I don't agree with his sense of morality and when I tried to have that discussion, he became very angry. I'd hesitate to reduce him to a cartoon and call him a bigot, but part of me wonders. He certainly wouldn't think of himself that way.

And, of course, we have the COVID issue. Does that rise to the same level? In many ways, yes, many ways no. But probably one difference is that there's more room to communicate, hopefully less emotion. So I won't stop trying and hopefully everyone on both sides is still open to learning more.

Dare I say there's no shortage of bigots or antisemites in this country, so folks framing "I certainly would/could have a calm logical discussion about bigotry with a bigot" as some kind of hypothetical is suspect. What's been stopping you so far?

Nothing. I've tried and will continue to try. Just because something is important and I will make time for it doesn't mean it's a 24/7 activity. I'd have approximately 35 children and not enough time to eat, sleep or write "hello, world" if that were the case.

Yes I did. I've also talked about people who I've been 'friendly' with who are Q.

I understand what you're saying about not wanting certain people to be part of your life. I disagree with that - we've been down that road before and reached the agree-to-disagree point - but what I've been talking about here isn't that. You can say 'I don't want anything to do with anti-vaxxers' and that's not the same as saying 'anti-vaxxers are the worst people'. I mean, if what we're saying is we're going to claim that and at the same time say we don't have time to rationally assess it; if so, then we have no business making that claim and it makes no larger point than 'I hate you'.

/thread

It sure sounds like you've given yourself all the moral credit for something you do occasionally, at your own convenience. It's not exactly soapbox material.

Ah yes, I do remember your position that you think you should have some say who I connect with in my life. That was a good one.

Edit: We've all learned more about mental health over the last couple of years, and what our own struggles are. I know I don't have the mental health to have certain types of people in my life, or to even engage with them over a certain level of substance. It's one of those rules based on self-awareness that has helped me do just a little better, and in a better position to take on other mental health challenges.

And if a goal should be to have or express less hate (or "nuclear dissent") generally, for anti-vaxxers, or whoever, and maybe it should be - not engaging with them is the very best way for me personally to move towards that noble goal.

Who said it was? What have you done in the last 24 hours to justify your existence?

We all have to live with ourselves. No matter who you are, this likely requires considerable mental gymnastics.

This has dissolved into a pissing match. Not exactly political but can you guys take it to the Biden or Trump thread so we can keep this focused on Covid.

I for one would like to better understand the impact of Covid on pop tarts.

Agreed with Edward. There's clearly legs to the whole "where do you draw the line with civility" thing (though it feels like we've had it several times before, with the same outcomes).

Iran returns donated vaccines because they were made in U.S. - Los Angeles Times

Solecismic can you talk to these guys please?

ETA: Despite the snark of this post I do agree we need to be willing to talk to our fellow human beings more.

I did not know this about Measles...That's really pretty scary coupled with covid.

Measles and Immune Amnesia

Israel and preliminary results of 4th shot. Basically, 4th shot helps but not that much. Hopefully more to come from Fauci, CDC etc. to provide more context.

Will a 4th shot boost your protection against COVID-19? : Goats and Soda : NPR
I hope Pfizer & Moderna are analyzing why it doesn't seem to help as much and streamlining their processes so a "new vaccine" can be made in shorter time for the next mutant.

Flying for the first time since covid started. Lots of creative mask wearing in the airport.

I think the biggest issue is that the vaccines were made for OG COVID, not Omicron. The virus has changed a lot since then.

In NFL terms, that's like a defensive coach who is amazing at neutralizing 2020's offensive packages, but hasn't adapted to anything that's happened since then.

One of our local hospital's new cases of COVID count is down to 6, 5 unvaccinated, 0 with 2 shots, 1 with the booster. I hope this trend continues and there's not yet another variant on the ay

More at-home testing probably has an impact, but the official reported new case counts are down about 95% in the last month. Maybe Omicron was a blessing, and very quickly gave the population a lot of immunity without killing or hospitalizing many vaccinated people at all.

For anyone in health care, Texas was the last state to pass the first of two CMS deadlines on 2/22. March 21st is the final deadline. https://www.cms.gov/files/document/h...n-timeline.pdf

SI

Petition to make this a new Olympic sport?

I've heard it's the 4th shot that is going to kill the population so....

Each shot is just a new battery for the tracking device.

Biden is ahead of (my) schedule from a couple week ago. Missus and I are planning to shop at Costco this weekend. I think I'll go in without a mask.

Yay for normalcy.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...y-us-rcna17686

I plan to keep masking at the grocery store, because people have other germs and aren't shy about spreading them.

Costco was madness yesterday. Store employees wore mask and prob 50% customers wore masks. I didn't.

But we got the $1.50 hot dog special (and slice of pizza) and I wiped the table with the supplied clorox wipes.

Mask compliance has been pretty good here (Raleigh and Raleigh suburbs). But this weekend it was noticeably down. I don't think that people have been formally following the CDC, but I do think that the CDC coming out mask-optional sent a pretty strong signal that filtered down in a hurry.

dola:

The few mandates that isolated part of the country had are going away. And I am starting to see the anti-mask/vaccine crowd saying "Getting rid of the mandates are not enough! The government must pay for what it did!"

It reminds me of the post-vaccine/pre-Delta period when we all started taking off our masks, so the previous anti-mask crowd suddenly couldn't make a political statement by not masking. So some of them starting making yellow Stars of David that said anti-vax.

I don't think that it applies to most folks here, but there's a decent percentage of the anti-mask/anti-vax/anti-mandate crowd that has enjoyed this, as perverse as that sounds. And now that they have basically won, they can't even enjoy the victory because they are upset that their faux-outrage game is ending.

They haven't even won, really. I guess they probably like to think they did, of course. But the virus is receding, like it did last summer. Nothing they did convinced anyone it was time to get rid of mandates or masks. If we were in the middle of delta again, there'd be all sorts of restrictions. I think as far as being tired of masking, that's pretty much everyone.

I will admit that I've started losing the mask when I'm not in crowded indoor places the last week or so. Part of that is the virus receding and part is because my MIL had hip replacement surgery last Monday so we were extra cautious leading up to the surgery.

Kentucky is just under 10% positivity rate, which a year ago would have been awful, but considering we were just pushing 30% a few weeks ago, it feels like we're near zero. I'm vaxxed and boosted. We don't do much socializing or partying, so we're limited on how much face-to-face time we have with strangers. I feel pretty comfortable without a mask right now.

I want to see the placard "The government must pay for taking measures to try and keep me, my family & friends healthy & alive"

What is the convoy going to protest when they reach Washington?

We want an end to mask mandates!

We did that last week.

uhhhh. CRT!!!!

I drive Uber so I get to see all walks of mask life and listen to it constantly. It’s tedious. I don’t really care anymore about the passengers, I’d prefer they wear one but it is what it is. At this point I want to personally mask if it reduces the chances of catching some other super rhinovirus shit flu as well Covid. It’s amazing how people wanted to dunk on society so bad by not wearing masks but their attempted recourse is to take it out on service workers as if we make the rules. And no I don’t know when Uber is changing it’s masking rules, dunno why riders would expect me to know that.

Apparently kids 5-11 dosage levels is not yet optimized.

They were approved back in Oct/Nov before omicron really ramped up so guess that is understandable. I'm more focused on hospitalizations so 100% to 48% is still pretty decent.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/28/pfiz...udy-finds.html

Well, they are currently testing a 3-dose regime.

That checks out with my family. My 5-11 year old got it despite being vaxxed (mild symptoms). The three of us who live with him are all boosted, and none of us caught it from him.

At the time, I thought that a lower dose was kind of silly--seemed like it was just catering to the anti-vax crowd by trying to minimize harmless side effects. I wish they had just let people who wanted to protect their kids get the full dose and understood that would mean a couple more kids with slightly sorer arms for 12 hours.

Another covid side-effect.

Buy stock in the makers of sildenafil....

My daughter is experiencing lightheadedness, dizziness and shortness of breath again. This happened a couple of times playing basketball within a couple months of getting over Covid at the end of 2019, and seemed to have gone away. But it came back (or something similar) the last two games of her career, sadly.

Now, we're not ruling out some sort of anxiety/panic attack because I could totally see that happening given the coincidence of it being the last 2 games of her career. The doctor is sending her to the same cardiologist she saw the first time around. We'll see what comes of it. But it's certainly possibly that it's some sort of reoccurrence of the long Covid symptoms she experienced the prior year, possibly sparked by some anxiety? Not sure. We can't tell if it's caused by anxiety, or the panic attack is what comes on in the moment she realizes something is off and she's seeing stars.

But what sucks is that she's sitting on the sidelines for softball right now until this gets cleared up. And of course, it's not like doctor appointments for specialists are easy to get. So it's possible she won't play much this season and end on an anti-climactic downer.

It should come down to the parent's choice he said.

'This is ridiculous': @GovRonDeSantis scolds students for wearing face masks during his @USouthFlorida visit https://t.co/v9XLjueCYi pic.twitter.com/TFeC6t6wL9

— WFLA NEWS (@WFLA) March 2, 2022