That is probably the truth.

The only sport where I truly believe guys care for the most part is the NHL. The pride in getting that Lord Stanley is unparalleled.

Random question here, as I don't really follow the NBA (or this thread) a whole lot, but I'm wondering who you guys think are the top 10 or 12 or 15 players in the NBA right now?

I don't really need them ranked or anything, but I was talking to my dad and trying to kind of figure out which NCAA conference (if any) produces the best NBA talent. Or if there is even any type of consensus on it.

Off the top of my head, I think of:
Kobe, LeBron, and Dwight Howard (high school)
Chris Paul and Duncan (Wake Forest -- ACC)
Durant (Texas -- B12)
Wade (Marquette -- BE, although I think he was in CUSA)
Carmelo ('Cuse -- BE)

Who else?

I have always thought Deron Williams (Big 10) is in the top 12 or so.

at the moment i disagree

Deron is having a tough time getting it going after his injury, but I have full faith that he'll be back in form next season at least. He used to be my #1 PG, but I'd say that's he's dropped a couple of spots now.

I think given his situation of one year left, I'd be doing the same thing. Hopefully ferry was planning on this.

I haven't watched that much basketball this year. Isn't hickson potentially going to be a very good player? Obviously the goal is to win now. And entice Bron to stay.

Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Duncan, Joe Johnson, Danny Granger, Durant, Melo, CP3 & Pau Gasol would probably be my top-10, off the top of my head. I could easily rotate 3 or 4 of those guys with someone else if you asked me again in 10 minutes, and I've probably forgotten someone obvious.

Hickson has all the tools, it's just that if real life was a video game, his offensive and defensive awareness would be quite low. I think he *could* get there, maybe, but I don't think he's as good a prospect as Marreese Speights, who got picked a few spots higher.

I'd throw Nowitzki (Germany), P. Gasol (Spain), Pierce (Big 12), Nash (West Coast Conference), and Roy (Pac 10) in there.

Then there's Granger (whatever conference New Mexico is in), Joe Johnson (SEC), D. Williams (Big 10), Bosh (ACC), Yao (China) if he can make it back, and just going with the rest of the guys who made the All-Star team this year (except for Iverson who I won't count): Billups (Big 12), Lee (SEC), Horford (SEC), Randolph (Big 10), Rondo (SEC), Rose (CUSA), Wallace (SEC), Garnett (high school), Stoudemire (high school), Kidd (Pac 10), and Kaman (MAC). That's quite a bit more than 15 in total but there is no one dominant conference afaict.

Regarding Amar'e: I haven't had a chance to read :07 Seconds or Less, which was an inside look at the Phoenix Suns 2005-2006 season (of note this was the season that Amar'e was injured), but the cliff notes from ESPN's reviewer painted the following picture of Stoudemire.

- overall a nice guy
- "absurdly unworldly"
- his teammates generally felt he was apathetic
- he dogged it in rehab

Stoudemire wasn't exactly pleased with his portrayal in the book.

Again, I haven't read the book and I don't follow the Suns closely. However, those few insights along with how absurdly high he values himself would lead me to doubt he places an incredibly high importance on winning a championship.

This will sound bad and I'll get ripped for it, but if I'm the Cavs, I'd rather have Murphy over Stoudemire. Murphy really creates bad matchups for other teams and can spread the floor a lot more for Lebron. Amare is a great offensive weapon but him and Shaq just don't work well inside. Murphy is also a better rebounder than Amare.

If I'm drafting teams, I take Amare ahead of Murphy. But in this situation, I just think Murphy is a better fit and causes some unique matchup problems while opening the lane for Lebron.

It's not bad at all. The Cavs need a guy who can shoot it from the outside. All Amare does is help clog the lane when he and Shaq are in so then Bron is stuck settling for jump shots.

Murphy is absolutely a better fit for them.

I'd be pretty happy with Murphy, my only complaint with him - of course, also kinda applies to Stoudamire too - and it may not even be fair these days as most of what I know about Murphy is from his Golden State days, is that he used to be a very poor defender. The Pacers don't exactly play D either so I can't say if that is still the case or not.

I kinda feel like this question hasn't been truly relevant since the late 90s really, once there was a shift from most players going to college for 3-4 years to everyone straight out of high school, or now most of the top players being foreign or 1 and done in college.

I would expect the Big East to come out ahead these days for what little can be measured with a combination of sheer volume and the quality of coaches at the top of the league that is hard to match.

Yeah I don't know why you would get ripped for that statement. It's exactly what we were talking about at work today - if you feel like you have to upgrade at PF why not get a guy with a very unique skillset. Cavs become almost impossible to match up with offensively if they get Murphy, and he's a solid rebounder to boot. His defense is very poor but so is Amare's now.

I think he'd be a great get as oppose to Amare who would make them a worse team overall IMO. I can't imagine how bad that pick and roll defense is going to be with Shaq and Amare on the court and any team with a couple of athletic bigs is going to absolutely destroy them. And as everybody has said, he does nothing to open up the lane for Lebron and he's going to take a lot of offensive possessions away from him. Exactly the kind of guy I wouldn't want if I was the Cavs.

1. Lebron James(High School)
2. Kobe Bryant(High School)
3. Chris Paul (Wake Forest, ACC)
4. Dwayne Wade(Marquette, CUSA)
5. Dwight Howard(High School)
6. Kevin Durant(Texas, Big 12)
7. Dirk Nowitski(Germany)
8. Carmelo Anthony(Syracuse, Big East)
9. Pau Gasol(Spain)
10. Tim Duncan(Wake Forest, ACC)
11. Brandon Roy(Washington, Pac-10)
12. Chris Bosh(Georgia Tech, ACC)
13. Steve Nash(Santa Clara, WAC)
14. Deron Williams(Illinois, Big 10)
15. Paul Pierce(Kansas, big 12)

Honorable Mention:Joe Johnson(Arkansas, SEC), Kevin Garnett(High School), Chauncey Billups(Colorado, Big 12), Danny Granger(New Mexico, Mountain West), Amare Stoudamire(High School)

Looks like High School followed by ACC , Big 12.

Looks like too small of a sample size to really make a judgement

SI

Is the 2003 NBA Draft the greatest draft ever? You have Lebron, Anthony, Wade, and Bosh. Probably 4 of the top 7 or 8 guys in the league. Chris Kaman, David West, and Mo Williams who were or are All-Stars. Some good NBA players like Hinrich, Barbosa, Pietrus, Diaw, Collison. And then a ton of bench guys who get good minutes in the NBA like Perkins, Kopono, Walton, Korver, Ford, Ridnour, etc.

Probably the strongest top 6 in the NBA ever with potentially 4 of the top 5 players being Hall of Famers. As well as being a rather deep draft that produced a lot of NBA starters and bench guys.

This might help a bit.

http://rpiratings.com/NBA.html

Cool! Hard for me to believe Pac-10 has the highest percentage of NBA Players. I would have guessed ACC followed by Big East then Pac-10.

PAC-10 has been decimated over the past couple of years by early departures. The current season is the result

Yup, what he said. Consider the rookie-soph game last weekend. Some of the players on that court: Westbrook (UCLA), Love (UCLA), Harden (ASU), Lopez (Stanford), Mayo (USC), Gibson (USC). Jennings never went to Arizona, but he was set to go for a long while before ditching for Europe (so doesn't count, btu one more coulda...).

And that doesn't mention the other guys in the past two drafts who are considered top notch prospects or have played pretty well or were drafted high, but for whatever reason weren't in the rookie-soph game:

Bayless, Budinger, Hill (Arizona); Mbah a Moute, Collison, Holiday (UCLA); Hackett, Derozan (USC); Lopez II (Stanford); Anderson (Cal), Hairston (Oregon), Brockman (UDub). This group--which didn't make it into the rookie-soph game--includes 8 1st rounders.

The Pac 10 has been absolutely torn apart by talent departures. Almost all of these guys were early entries. And I'm going off of the top of my head; I'm probably forgetting some.

Portland apparently is about to get a deal done with the Clippers, sending Blake and Outlaw to LA for Marcus Camby.

Would be a pretty good deal for them. With the backcourt players getting all healthy you don´t really need Blake, especially considering how good Bayless has looked at times.
And Outlaw would play minutes at the 4 mostly when he comes back, at the 3 you have Batum and Webster who are getting the job done and are younger than Outlaw.
Camby at the 5/Howard at the 4 >>>>>>> Howard 5/Outlaw 4

Plus Camby is an expiring, meaning the Blazers give themselves a decent shot at reaching the 2nd round and giving the players, club and fans a good feeling without changing the salary situation.
Although i am not sure if they have any capspace anyway since Roy´s contract extension kicks in next year.

The 2003 draft, along with the 1996 and 1984 drafts, were arguably the top 3 drafts in NBA history.

Budinger: 44th pick
Mbah A Moute 37th pick
Hairston 48th pick
Brockman 38th pick

"top notch prospects" - I don't think this means what you think it means.

Good thing they kept Dunleavy as GM.

Excellent source!

SI

Well, if you look at pure numbers, it's Big East (55), ACC (53), then Pac-10 (50). But then they average it out per team and that's where the Pac-10 takes over.

SI

This makes me laugh as its not only predictable but preposterous. What exactly are you basing this opinion on.

I think Chief meant top notch prospects in the NBA, now. Not at the time. All players (well, not sure about Hairston), are all going to be good players in the NBA

Yeah, all were drafted in the second round and all save Hairston are strong rotation guys. That's fairly impressive:

Mbah a Moute: 26.8 MPG, 6.4 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 49% shooting
Budinger: 20 MPG, 8.2 PPG, 3.0 RPG, 35% 3
Brockman: 15 MPG, 3 PPG, 4.8 RPG

the fact they don't get paid for the playoffs?

Curious...could you expand on this? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Without looking at the specifics, my reaction on instinct is "not bad". Outlaw has always been a guy with some potential, last I checked, and he gives the Clips another option at the 3 or even some 4. With Telfair out, Blake gives the Clips a guy who can do the basic backup PG stuff for now. Moving Camby also allows more time for Craig Smith and Jordan to play more in the big man rotation--both have been fairly strong reserves and Jordan needs the time for his development. Plus, it probably opens up more minutes for Thornton at the 4, to show if he's worth an extension. Doesn't much matter since, presumeably, Blake Griffin's going to be the 4 next year.

I don't know if these guys are on expiring or not (I would guess not), so I can't measure that impact. But if they aren't expiring, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Camby wasn't coming back--not because he hasn't grown comfortable with his role or with being in LA or anything, but because he's an older player and he wants to win. So the Clips need to move him now to get anything. If a big time free agent was going to be lured to LA, then Camby's expiring would be important, but let's face it, what superstar is going to sign longterm with the Clippers until they prove they can shake the loser label? I am a Clippers fan, and I wouldn't do it.

If someone tells me Joe Johnson or Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh is going to walk thru that door, okay, this deal is a mistake. But I'm not buying that.

Dunleavy is an awful coach. But there's a lot of young talent on the team and it's almost all because of him. Hopefully they can get the right coach in there who can establish a tone and work to build chemistry and more work ethic.

This isn't a great move. But I don't see it as a bad one, unless I am missing that these guys are on atrocious long term deals. Like I said, I didn't really research the new players, so I am going off what I can recall off the top of my head.

Yup, Bug and Arles have hit it on the head. As for Hairston, it's potential with him for now. He has always had the athleticism, and he's learning in a great system for players to get accustomed to NBA life, with the Spurs. He would probably be playing more at a forward spot if the Spurs hadn't pulled the Jefferson deal and Blair didn't magically fall to the Spurs in the second round.

And besides, that was a large group of players I mentioned. The fact Samdari could only nitpick at four of them (and, IMO, have an incorrect read on them) says a lot in and of itself.

None of this equates to "top notch prospects"

What was funny to me was that they were top notch prospects that "somehow did not make the rookie/sophomore game". Those rosters are 10 players? Roughly where I would draw the line at top-notch prospects in each class. None of the guys I listed approach the top 10 potential in their class - that's how they managed to avoid being picked for that game.

I agree with Arles that most seem destined to stay strong rotation guys. But, I was just pointing out none of them - at the draft or now - approached the level of top notch prospect.

Semantics.

Whatever, they're NBA level talent, and now they're no longer in the Pac 10, which is suffering. That was the point.

I'll say again, if you're nitpicking four players on a list of what, 12? 13? of "top prospects" that didn't make the game (on top of the several that did), well, really, you're just reaching to try to make a point.

Seems Camby wasn't too happy to receive the news. He was more settled and willing to return to the Clips than I had thought. Definitely a different sorta cat than most (which I knew, but I had aways been under the impression he was biding his time to get back to a championship contender).

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

FWIW, while I have some sympathy, because I like Marcus and his game, it's clear his teammates like him and I always want to have that rare guy around who wants to be a part of this franchise (for a change), but, basically, screw you to the rest of the players getting upset.

Listen up, kiddies. If you play without heart and chemistry and pull the kinda crap like you did at Golden State last week, well, this is what happens. If you don't want to have close friends traded from your team, here's a hint--sack up and play up to (and beyond) your talent. Listen to your coach, learn and play hard, every damn night. By and large, GMs don't break up winners.

Until that happens, you can all go bleep yourselves until you're traded for guys who do care.

I don't see much in the way of pride in most NBA players, so sue me. Look at the Olympics right now. Guys kill to be represent their nation in hockey, meanwhile in the NBA guys have to be coaxed just to play and if they lose they don't care. It isn't much different in the NBA playoffs. Maybe it is just the old school in me but every NBA playoff game is the same as a regular season game. Guys laughing it up, hugging before and after games with guys they just played against. You just don't see that in the NHL playoffs because there is a singular focus for most players to hoist the Cup.

The tradition is unparalleled.

Hell I'll take it a step further. The Pistons won their 04 title because Kobe and Shaq would rather fight then actually go out and win a title. Stupid shit like that literally cost 13 other guys an NBA title. It's unbelievable.

Seriously? Are the NHL players grittier and more hustlers, while the NBA players are relying on "talent" as well? You may as well go all out with the cliches.

You could say that about NBA players awhile back, not right now. There are an overflowing of superstars who want to play for USA basketball right now. It's the biggest of stars in the game. Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Melo, and others are linings up for the chance to play again. Many USA NBA guys will try out for the team and not make it.

I keep highlighting USA, because the NBA athletes from other countries don't have that problem. Manu, Tony Parker, Gasol, Yao and others have always played on their national teams.

As for the playoffs being like regular season, I just don't know what you are watching. the playoffs in the NBA are vastly different than regular season games. You seem to point out every cliche imaginable to justify why hockey players are different than basketball players, but sadly miss the make on most of them.

FWIW, I love the hockey playoffs. Nothing in sports matches the drama of an OT hockey playoff game. But to say the NBA guys don't want to win? Sorry, that's BS.

I'm sure a hockey team's success has never been undermined by the inability of certain players to mesh due to personality conflicts which in turn adversely affect the team concept. I think this is just a common case of perception over reality. There are selfish jerks in the NBA, there are jerks in the NHL, there are also dedicated team players in both leagues. Seeing as this is real life there are probably players who started off on one side of the spectrum and evolved to the opposite side over the years. Your anecdotal reports of one league being constituted by a greater proportion of one or the other are not swaying.

Yeah, Kevin Garnett didn't really give a shit about winning a title.

The Camby you guys have has to be vastly different than the one the Nuggets had a few years ago. The Camby on the Nuggets was not a respected player. As for the Clippers as a team, I think Camby was gone this year at some point. Kaman is the center. Blake will be the PF. Jordan is a decent project guy. There was no need to keep a 35 year old on the roster. Unless they were gunning for a spot in the conference finals, they needed to ship him out. (and even with a healthy Blake, they would not be contending for that spot yet)

Yup, I agree 100%, although I still don't know much about the Camby in Denver. I know you were not a fan of his. I have seen merit in some of your arguments about Camby's play; that said, I always thought you held him in far lower regard than he actually deserved, even in Denver.

Definitely, this Clips team wasn't contending on that level this year. I think with the right coaching and a healthy Blake and a good team attitude, they would have been a playoff team, but that didn't happen, so they're not. I have some hope that the talent is now here to one day reach that level, but it will still take finding the right coach, right system and right team leaders to make it happen.

As you note, the writing has been on the wall for Camby with the Clips for a while now, really since Griffin was drafted. Not sure why it should catch Camby and the players sideways now. It's a pretty obvious move.

I know, my opinions of Camby and Iverson both have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. You aren't the only one who thinks I've been to hard on either or both of those players.

All I can tell you is that despite the obvious rebounding/blocked shot statistics, Camby and Iverson both hurt teams BADLY in spots not so obvious on the box score.

Camby cannot play man on man basketball. So if you have a scheme that lets him fly around, he wins the DPOY awards and peole think he's great. Those of us that watched Al Jefferson go 16-18 against him in a game know otherwise. On offense with the Nuggets, instead of getting under the boards and banging on the offensive glass, he was content to sit at the top of the key so he could take ugly ass jumper after ugly ass jumper. (and despite his position on the floor, he routinely wouldn't get back on defense to even slow down a fast break)

He's the most selfish defensive player I have ever seen in NBA basketball. If there is a blocked shot in it for him he's going to go 150%. Trying to get around a screen on a P&R from the top of the key? Not so much. Rotating on a guy to challenge a 15 foot jumper? Screw that, I'll sit under the basket and hope I can pad my rebounding total.

After the first round beatdown a couple of years ago, I wished for two things. Camby to be gone (and I said at the time that I didn't care if we got anything back for him or not) and Iverson to be gone. (for a true PG)

I feel like I'm in a Windows 7 commercial. Because the Nuggets did both of those things and went to the conference finals. People tried to attribute their success to a ton of factors. To me it was really simple, addition by substraction. The two selfish jack asses are gone and now they play like a team. (although they can still be wildly inconsistent at times, nowhere near the way they were with Camby walking the halls)

Sarcasm, yes. I just think that in a league where an expiring contract has value regardless of whether or not he could walk...to get what the Clips got back for an expiring contract who actually can play and help a playoff contender is pretty weak.

But I'm not a big NBA guy, so I could be way off.

If you disliked Iverson and Camby for being selfish you must feel some of the same feelings for Anthony?

A lot of times when the Nuggets do struggle it is because the black hole wont pass the ball.

I think the Clips probably could have got a little more for Camby. But of course it's Sterling and he gets cash instead of a pick or a young guy who they can develop. No big surprise there.

I know that's the myth that a lot of people want to believe, but it just isn't true. Melo's actually had a better passer rating than Iverson for three straight seasons.

Melo has a passer rating of 7.1 (down from 7.7 last year) Here are some comparables

First we'll go with other SF:

Durant (2.9)
Pierce (4.1)
G. Wallace (2.1)
Lebron (13.4)

Now for some other players:

Kobe (8.0)
Wade (9.8)
Joe Johnson (7.0)
Dirk (2.8)
Roy (7.3)


OK, when we get past the fact that Lebron is on another planet, Melo stacks up pretty well with the other guys. His passing is actually an underrated component of his game. One of Denver's few problems on offense is when Melo has the ball and nobody cuts down the lane. When they get tired they stand around the three point line and that absolutely kills them. If Melo has the ball, you cut and you are anything close to open, you will get the ball.

Melo's selfishness still comes on the defensive end more than the offensive end. He's one of the worst help defenders I've ever seen. (man to man, he's pretty good surprisingly)