STOP...WALKING...THEM!!!

I don't really know what Morales was doing.

Well, you know, aside from the fact that K-Rod gets into a Hell of a lot of trouble (though his WHIP is under 1 this year), he has pitched far, far, far better than Marmol makes me think they are different ;).

Well, I am talking about the getting into a lot of trouble.

Everyone knows K-Rod gets out of it. He just doesn't bother to start pitching until two guys are on.

There you go. You f'ers earned it. Take a bow.

Huge grand slam from Clete there, especially stepping in for Miggy. But yeah the Angels pen doesn't exactly send shivers down my spine. Last year I would've said this was over a 5-4 but this time it just seemed like this game wasn't close to done.

The pen has made this season just so extremely frustrating. Especially the walks. I hate walks. There is no reason to give up walks. Every pitcher can pitch a strike if they need to. So pitch strikes. Even the best hitters get hits only 30% of the time. So make them hit the damn ball.

The grand slam was the only hit in the half-inning. Disgusting.

Especially vs Detroit when Miggy isnt in. The lineup just isn't strong, but who did they walk that inning? Rayburn, Everett, etc? You cannot walk those guys, that's just bad.

Exactly. I mean, sure Ordonez is a guy who can do some damage (and they did walk him), but you had to walk two or three guys to even get a chance to get to Ordonez. You have to pitch to these guys. I know he won't because it's not his style, but I hope Scioscia's planning a big meeting with the pen to let them know this sort of thing is just not going to be allowed anymore, and if they can't get the job done, they'll find someone else who can.

Except this year apparently. Removing his sole two inning appearance, he's allowed two or more baserunners six times in 24 outings. He's gone 3-up, 3-down 11 times.

So far, so good.

Better than he's been, but I wouldn't say less than 50% 3-up, 3-down is exactly great, nor that doing the two baserunner thing once every four times is a great thing either.

Two games in one in San Diego today; monstrous 18-inning affair.

It's always easy to say things like this based on the assumption that others are so much better.

There aren't many, but there out there. Come on, would you feel the same "woe as me, the game is over" feeling with K-Rod on the mound, as you would a Papelbon or a Nathan? K-Rod's getting that kinda money, too, but he doesn't produce at that level.

He hasn't done anything this season to prove otherwise.

dola- to say he doesn't produce at that kind of level is insane. You realize how many saves he had last year?

So are we going by general feeling from an opposing fan, or actual stats?

Papelbon: 24 appearances, 4 times faced 3, 12 times faced 5+
Nathan: 22 appearances, 12 times faced 3, 4 times faced 5+

Seems to me people should be feeling a lot better with Papelbon on the mound. And while Nathan's numbers here are slightly better, I'd say the two blown saves (to K-Rod's zero) and higher ERA (2.08 vs 0.68) put him behind.

Hey, if K-Rod has turned a new leaf and is indeed better, kudos to him and to the Mets for signing him. But you're talking to a guy who had to suffer through his appearances as closer for four years. That stuff doesn't just go away. If it does, great. But I wouldn't make any bets on that if I were you.

CR has always been a Krod hater. It is just easier now that he doesn't have to root for him

What do you think? You know what team I am a fan of, right?

Not a K-Rod hater at all. I loved what he did for the Angels in 2002. I loved his fire on the mound. Loved that makeup and his attitude. He'll always be a highly regarded Angel for what he did here.

That doesn't mean he's all that perfect like you guys are making him out to be. Like I said, okay, he's off to a good start, the stats bear that out. But it's a break from the norm then. I hope for your sakes he stays on this run. But in my experience, he won't.

He's still a heck of a lot better than anything you guys have had for about five years, though, so you're better off no matter what happens.

You're probably right, I mean, he never stays on any kind of run, it's easy to get 62 saves without going on some kind of run.

Are you really arguing that saves are the appropriate metric? K-Rod's a very good reliever (and made all the sense in the world for the Mets)
, but he's no longer the "great" reliever he used to be.

Lets play a game:

Pitcher A:
74 Games, 78 1/3 IP, 80 K, 25 BB, 9 HR
- results: 2.9 BB/9, 9.2 K/9, for a K/BB ratio of 3.20

Pitcher B:
76 Games, 68.1 IP, 77 K, 34 BB, 4 JR
- results: 3.9 BB/9, 9.8 K/9, for a K/BB ratio of 2.26



Who's the better pitcher? Is there much of a difference?

WXRL
'05 - 1st
'06 - 1st
'07 - 10th
'08 - 3rd
'09 - 3rd


You will not find a reliever that's been better over the last 4 years and change. KRod has actually become fairly underrated because of all the attention he brought to the ridiculousness of the save stat last year.

I can't tell what WXRL is, but it seems from what you posted that Crapshoot is right, he isn't as good of a reliever as he once (something I can confirm from visual evidence).

Weird, you leave out the most important stat for a closer

FUCKING SAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Enjoy your heart attack.

oh cmon man, I'm just fucking with you


antikrodite

Ugh, I detest the whole saves stat. This has nothing to do with the whole K-Rod debate, I just hate how much money closers make when it's such a misleading stat. For instance, Todd Jones made 8 million last year because he closed games out, but using him as an example, he was called the Roller Coaster by Ernie Harwell because of how ugly his saves could be, but he embraced that.

Well, if that same pitcher is a middle relief guy who routinely gives up baserunners, how much money does he make? Probably not a lot, because he'll be in the Minors before you know it.

I just hate a closer can be rewarded for giving up 2 runs in the 9th in a 5-2 game and be lauded for shutting the door, even if it's ugly, but if it's 5-2 in the 7th and he gives up 2 runs, he's a bum.

Always annoyed me.

Try rooting for the Mets the second half of last year, you'll be singing a different tune.

I remember hearing some closer on a sports show talk about how he just couldn't get mentally prepared unless he was coming in at the end of the game. I somehow bet this psychological bullshit would magically change if they got rid of the save statistic.

I was so happy when Bobby Cox told Bob Wickman to get the fuck out of Atlanta because he didn't want to pitch in a non-save situation.

Heh...lol.

Funny thing is, I really do think the world of him for what he did for the Angels in his time here, and his leaving the Angels was purely a business decision--if my heart had any say in it, I would have rooted strongly for him to stay an Angel for life.

Yep, I remember that. Good for him.

The easy solution is fix the Save stat. Instead of earning a save for 3 runs or less, make it saves are only earned in 1 run situations then we'll see how valuable closers really are.

The irony of Lathum trying to convince CR of K-Rod's value through his save number.

Bastardo puts up another strong outing in Los Angeles. He's only got a fastball right now, but if the Phils ever get him two more good pitches, he'll be a strong starter.

It's a shame about Lidge. If he was right, we could've swept all four games against the best team (records-wise) in the league on the road.

CR, for the better part of a year now you have had your stance that K-Rod doesn't pitch well until there are two guys on, and then he buckles down and gets the job done. My point with what I posted originally, and then the stats to follow, was that the facts show that the thought that there are all these guys out there who don't allow baserunners isn't true either.

Go back to Joe Nathan who you say "gives that feeling"...last year he faced just 3 hitters 38% of the time, while K-Rod, in probably his worst year from a non-saves perspective, did it 36% of the time.

Trevor Hoffman, this year at least, is about the only "lights out" closer in the business.

Is there a worse nickname convention than the current trent of first initial dash first syllable of last name? Where the hell did the fun nicknames go?

99% in agreement, I hate that the Mets top prospect is referred to as "F-Mart"...it makes no sense to me, and it sounds like shit.

The 1% is reserved for K-Rod, which I thought was decently cool given the strikeout aspect and not being an F (and thought that way before he was a Met, FWIW).

I just like the names that are much more appropriate to their skills.

Pete Rose = Charlie Hustle
Joakim Soria = The Mexicutioner

Also, you'd have base stealers with nicknames like 'Wheels' or 'Flash'. Just seems more fun to me. I'm sure there are tons of good examples.

FWIW.....I saw 'F-Mart' and thought it said 'fart'.

They've been doing that since the days of H-Wag and T-Cobb.

Agreed- KRod works because of the strikeouts. However, it's one of very, very few that do. "FMart" just conjures up images of Bruce Campbell with a shotgun saying "Shop smart. Shop S-Mart."

SI

Yeah, one of you guys mentioned The Mexicutioner awhile back...agree on it being awesome.

I don't see the irony in it, but ok.

Definitely my favorite nickname going, but I might be a little biased :)

SI

The Mexicutioner is definitely awesome, but let me throw out my own favorite for Pablo Sandoval - Kung-fu Panda. You have to see his "Svelte" figure to really get it.

I like Fat Ichiro.

That depends, where are the hit numbers? I want to see pure baserunners, I don't care how many he walks if he's only allowing 30 hits out of the 60 innings he pitches.

Nyjer Morgan, aka Tony Plush. Don't think that one is fairly common yet.

If Kung Fu Panda catches on for him, that's great :D

SI

Interesting battle between current and previous Pirate CFers. McCutchen 3-4 with 2 triples. Mclouth 3-4 with a homer.

McCutchen had four hits tonight (albeit in an extra inning game). Yup, I'd say he's ready for the majors.

Game is now in the 13th.

Onto the 14th now

SI

Sigh

Well it looks like the newly acquired Charlie Morton goes in weds game

That triple was a thing of beauty. McCutch can fly.

The Baseball Tonight guys clocked him at something like 10.4 seconds from home to third. On his second triple they said McCutchen had to slow down so he wouldn't pass Eric Hinske on the basepaths.

Saw him play in Triple-A Indianapolis a lot. Very exciting player. Kind of upset he got called up to be honest! :p

You should get Brad Lincoln soon to AAA. Righty is tearing up AA with a ERA near 2.

But I was thinking if I still lived in Norfolk I'd be pissed to see weiters and reimold both leave the tides.

Johnny Damon's HR last night was a joke. He popped up to RF and immediately reacted with a disgusted look on his face and tossed the bat, and then about 5 seconds later realized he could trot around the bases. He was yukking it up in the dugout afterwards, like he knew he hita short pop to RF in every other major and minor league park in the country. Except Yankee Stadium.

The new stadium is going to help send Johnny Damon to the HOF.

He'd better need a lot more than a new stadium to get to the HOF. He's not even close right now or at least shouldn't be by the numbers.

SI

I have to think that HOF comment was hyperbole. Kind of hard to imagine him making the Hall when his most comparable pairing is Cesar Cedeno.

The new stadium will help keep him viable longer than he would have been otherwise as he ages but that's about it I think.

He's a FA after this year but is dying to stay, I'm sure. Given the Yanks' treatment of Abreu last year, I'm sure Damon doesn't have high hopes for sticking around. But maybe they'd consider him on a 1-year deal. For such a stacked team, the Yanks' OF is pretty sparse. If they don't sign Holliday in the off-season (or trade for him this year), they might need Damon next year. Otherwise, I guess they could start 2010 with Swisher, Cabrera (assuming he continues hitting like he has), and Austin Jackson.

I would be shocked if that were the Yanks OF next year. There are going to be free agents, and the Yankees will have money to spend.

Cashman's smart, and Austin Jackson's tearing up AAA right now. So I think he'll at leasat be on the club next year, if not handed a starting job. The other 2 will be on the team, barring a trade.

Here's the list of OF/DH FAs for 2010. Not a pretty list:

Left fielders
Garret Anderson (38)
Marlon Anderson (36)
Jason Bay (31)
Emil Brown (35)
Carl Crawford (28) - $10MM club option with a $1.25MM buyout
Johnny Damon (36)
David Dellucci (36)
Cliff Floyd (37)
Matt Holliday (30)
Jacque Jones (35)
Gabe Kapler (34)
Greg Norton (37)
Wily Mo Pena (28)
Manny Ramirez (38) - $20MM player option
Dave Roberts (38)
Fernando Tatis (35)
Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (30)
Rocco Baldelli (28)
Marlon Byrd (32)
Mike Cameron (37)
Endy Chavez (32)
Coco Crisp (30) - $8MM club option with a $500K buyout
Darin Erstad (36)
Ryan Freel (34)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
Reed Johnson (33)
Andruw Jones (33)
Gabe Kapler (34)
Mark Kotsay (34)
Corey Patterson (30)
Scott Podsednik (34)
Right fielders
Bobby Abreu (36)
Jermaine Dye (36) - $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Brian Giles (39)
Vladimir Guerrero (34)
Eric Hinske (32)
Geoff Jenkins (35) - $7.5MM mutual option with a $1.25MM buyout
Gabe Kapler (34)
Austin Kearns (30) - $10MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Michaels (34)
Xavier Nady (31)
Magglio Ordonez (36) - $15MM club/vesting option with a $3MM buyout
Randy Winn (36)
Designated hitters
Hank Blalock (29)
Jason Giambi (39) - $6.5MM club option with a $1.25MM buyout
Ken Griffey Jr. (40)
Aubrey Huff (33)
Hideki Matsui (36)
Gary Sheffield (41)
Matt Stairs (42)
Mike Sweeney (36)
Jim Thome (39)



Who do you go for on this list? Crawford is going to get extended, so he probably shouldn't even be on the list. Bay, Holliday, and Ankiel are probably the only guys who might be worth more than a 2-year contract. And you have to assume the Red Sox will do everything in their power to keep Bay, particularly if the Yanks are out there looking for OF help. So that leaves Holliday/Ankiel. Frankly, if the Yanks want to go after any of the others, then that will make me, as a Yankee Hater, very happy (although a few of them might give decent value on a 1-year deal, but that's not how the Yanks usually operate).

He's 35 and has 2,300+ hits already. 3,000 hits gets you a ticket. It's not an exaggeration at all.

The new stadium suits him perfectly. Why wouldn't the Yanks keep Damon around if he's hitting well and why would he leave?

I would assume either Holliday or Bay will be playing LF for the Yankees next year. Bay resigning with Boston is far from a sure thing.

Because he's already 35 and I don't see him having 3 more 200 hit seasons, not even in that park. I figure he ends up in the 2800-2900 range and misses the Hall easily.

Yeah, it is. His great start this year coupled with their need to replace both him and Ortiz if he were to leave makes his re-signing a must. Unless they finally decide to part with some of their pitching and pick up a couple of long-term options (like trying to get Hanley Ramirez back from the Marlins).

Well, considering that no one knows what Bay's market looks like, it is not a lock. No one here in Boston considers it a lock. Despite the resources Boston has, they do not go above what they consider "good value": just look at Teixeira (and Damon, and Pedro...). How much is Bay worth? 13m? 17m? What will the market look like this winter?

How much time would they have to resign him anyway? I would assume after the All-Star Break Bay would not be interested in discussing an extension.

Because he's now just an average fielder with one of the worst arms in baseball, and doesn't give you corner OF production.

There is absolutely no chance Johnny Damon gets into the Hall of Fame. None.

Unfortunately for Boston, they overpaid JD Drew, so his contract is the starting point for Bay. I have a hard time believing they'd let him go to NY, given their situation right now. Tex was a different scenario - from what I've read, there was some gamesmanship going on there, to the extent that he may have been using the Sox to get the Yanks involved and only would have signed with the Red Sox if the Yanks didn't follow through.

He may make unreasonable demands that they just don't want to meet (or can't agree on a compromise), but they'll need an OF, a DH, and a SS (and probably a 3B, too) in the off-season, and that's a lot of positions to fill when the FA market is crappy and you don't want to trade any of your pitching.

If he somehow got 3K hits, he would be the test case that some thought Harold Baines would be if he had gotten there. Does 3K hits automatically mean HoF? Possibly.

Two words: designated hitter. Also check out his home stats this year. If he can end up with 80% of that, it's plenty good enough for a corner.


I'd happily take that bet. Glad to know you're open minded about it.

Whether Johnny Damon is a HoFer or will make the HoF are 2 different issues. Even with 4 more consistent seasons, 3K hits, etc., there's no way I'd consider him a HoFer. Doesn't mean he won't make it.

Personally, I wouldn't vote for him if he got to 4K hits just because he throws so horribly it would be an insult to baseball players everywhere to put him in the HoF. I've heard people say he throws like a girl, but having coached 9-10 year old softball, I'd say that's an insult to girls. My daughter's got a better throwing motion than Damon, and probably just as strong an arm, too.

Two words: Ha ha.

I'd say there's about a 5% chance they bring him back. And about a 0% chance that they bring him back just so they can DH him.

Feel free to bump this post during the winter.

OK...Matsui's contract expires this year too. He's got to be less likely to return than Damon, no?

There is zero chance Matsui returns, and a nonzero but still small chance Damon returns IMO.

Yeah they're done with him too.

Matsui won't be back. Have you seen him try to run lately? His knees are not in good shape and he's not contributing much at DH of late.

Damon is making a good case to stay, offensively anyway. I do think they want to move another one of their defensive liabilities, Jorge Posada, to DH most of the time. With Austin Jackson waiting in the wings, that would mean Damon is out. Nady is a FA and he won't be back with the Yankees next year. It'll definitely be interesting to see what they do with Damon and Jackson next year, but I think they go with Jackson.

I just don't see how Damon is considered a Hall of Famer by any measure. For the record, Baseball Reference rates him as good player but not Hall of Fame worthy. You can read more about the methodology behind the equations on Baseball Reference.

Black Ink Batting - 9 (250), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 76 (312), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 74 (242), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 36 (182), Average HOFer ≈ 50


Here's the link to the definitions of each term.

I looked at that when I was getting his total hits number this morning.

3,000 hits = In the HOF. Damon has less than 700 to go. That's literally the whole argument. All the stuff you cite simply says he'd be below average compared to others in the hall which is indisputably true.

Over the last three seasons, he's averaged 181 hits/yr. So, it all comes down to whether he can play 3.75 seasons at that pace. It's not out of the question, he's always had good health. I still don't think the Yankees resign him, though.

I don't think he's a full time player next season on any contending team. It will come down to whether or not he's willing to get his at bats in relative obscurity for that sort of shot. And to ask him to do that for that many more years, sorry just don't see it.

Going to play devils advocate a little here.

Johnny Damon and Craig Biggio are pretty close comparably when it comes to their offensive stats. Now I realize defensively there is a major difference, but offensively, Damon is going to be very close to what Biggio put up, in about 4 years...

Also looking at Robin Yount... pretty close comparison offensively. Not that Damon has ever won 1, let alone 2 MVP awards.

Im going to stray from the Yankee talk.

Cardinal fans are getting testy about the lack of production of the lineup. Duncan and Ankiel need to go for a 3rd baseman or an OFer with RHed power.

And back to Yankee talk. You dont want Ankiel. He is a #4 OFer.

Biggio is one of the best defensive/offensive second basemen in history. He is a HoFer regardless of 3K hits.

He's kinda like the opposite of Damon, in a sense - if Biggio hadn't hung on just to get to 3,000 hits, and hadn't piled up several shitty years at the end of his career, he still would/should have been a no-doubt HoFer. Damon, OTOH, could have 4 more solid 175 hit seasons and should not be in a legit discussion about the HoF.

I want them to have him then. And to pay him a lot of money.

Forget about the 3000 hit mark for a second. Go through Damon's year by year numbers and see how many can be considered HoF worthy. I think that's the criteria we'll start to see used more as we get more compilers eligible.

Anyone have the list of the factors to consider for HoF that I'd posted here once (can't find it). It pertains to things like was the player consider the best at their position while they were playing, best in all of baseball, etc. It's a list of like 12 or 15 things.

Found it.
Care of Bill James...

I don't know what's considered "HoF worthy," but the dude's got a 104 career OPS+ and never had an individual season above 118, until this year (141!). If he somehow keeps that pace up and either leaves or the Yanks change teh RF dimensions and his numbers drop off, then I think we can attribute 2009 to the stadium effects.

Either way, he's had a nice career, but he's barely above replacement level according to OPS+ - and that doesn't figure in his defense which has been below-average for several years.

Lidge to the DL. As a Phillies fan, I'm happy to see this, TBH.

I'm not a Damon fan nor do I give a shit about the HOF.

1) There's not going to be a smattering of guys with 3,000 hits any time soon.
2) If Damon gets 3,000 hits, he'll probably get in.

All this other stuff you guys are spouting won't matter even though it's all correct and accurate. Apologies for the honesty.

Brad Lidge was placed on the 15 day DL.
Phillies Place Lidge on Disabled List

If Damon limps to 3k hits, like Biggio did, he should be in the HOF.

Both belong in the Hall of Played a Long Time.

Like Julio Franco.

I'm stunned that Damon's numbers are across the board so similar to Biggio's. Park effects play a huge role in that - Damon's played in extreme offensive environments for virtually his entire career, while Biggio spent nearly 7500 PA of his prime hitting in the Astrodome. Unfortunately this concept will almost certainly go right over the voters' heads.

Biggio is obviously a lock, though I was disappointed he hung around several seasons too long just to get 3,000. Damon will be an interesting case since he will have a pretty weak argument other than 3,000 (assuming he gets there of course).

Dola

I'm with you on the OPS+ argument (104 is almost immediate grounds for dismissal), but it also doesn't account for speed. 400 SB at an 80% success rate is pretty valuable. But not enough to make up for the pedestrian batting & fielding IMO.