I believe it will. Especially once the Nets move there, too. If folks will go to Newark to watch opera at the NJPAC, I have no doubt they'll go to a Devils or a Nets game there at a brand spanking new arena and avoid the hefty parking prices and traffic in NYC.

So, you don't expect the Nets to end up in Brooklyn?

They've already extended their lease at the Meadowlands until 2010. And state officials are pushing hard to close the arena there once the Newark Arena opens. The only reason the one in Newark wasn't state funded, was because of lobbyists in both the boons of north jersey and south jersey folks, being upset because of course, suburban New Jerseyeans hate their cities and want to forget they exist.

Anyway...no. That arena in Brooklyn was doomed from the start and the only reason Bruce RATner was interested in the Nets, was to get the precious real estate that he's going to bulldoze to build gentrified lots of expensive places that no one currently in that neighborhood could ever hope to afford.

He had no community backing, short of part-owner Jay-Z.

It was DOA and that's why they haven't so much as broken ground ceremonially. Once the Devils abandon the Continental Airlines arena, there will be no reason for the Nets to stay in the boons by themselves.

The Devils already offered them a chance to move there that remains an open-ended invite and well, basketball would play a lot better to the locals in Newark than hockey ever would, plus it'd have all the other advantages such as close access to Newark Penn Station, etc.

It just makes sense. No one thought minor league baseball would work there and it has. The NJPAC was the first major investment at that point in the city and with their new mayor needing real results, etc., having two major teams move to the city will be a PR coup. The Devils are already on board and so, yeah.

I think RATner would need to sell the team though, before they'd move to Newark. No way he wants anything to do with the team once the arena deal in Brooklyn is offically declared dead.

Joe I'm sorry but this needs to be said. "Spoken like a true canadian." It does not need to be cold out for people to enjoy hockey. Tampa Bay not only puts a good product on the ice but they are #3 in attendance right now. They might be the most successful expansion product for the NHL in the last 20 years. Getting rid of them would be the silliest thing the NHL has even done.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2720130

Yeah, it's a hell of a deal it seems. And one of the venture capitalists that helped get the arena built, has an agreement to own any team that moves to KC with the arena. And he and Mario co-own a minor league club.

This deal is as good as done. 30 days and the Pens will make their decision. Hello KC Pens.

I really hope they change the name. KC Penguins is terrible

Agreed. "Hockey Bay" is a good market and they've won a Cup. It's full of northeastern snowbirds. I joked that you know those people have juice when they can get a baseball team for the sole purpose of watching the Yankees and Red Sox play without having to travel north each year.


I hated that Carolina got a team, but if ownership invests and the team wins..I have no gripe. And yes, I know they moved there and it was a sweetheart deal. But hey, if it works...

The Panthers need to go, though.

KC Sunshine

Agreed. But to what? Bring back the Scouts? Probably not. So, I wonder what they'll do with that.

Kansas City Krosbys

So, my guess is KC gets lined up; Mario leverages the offer to the gov't in Pitt; if they don't come close, then the team is gone.

This whole thing makes me sick. :(

The free rent deal isn't as sweet as it sounds. KC will still control most of the revenue due to parking and concessions. Pittsburgh is going to offer the Pens complete control over the revenue due to parking and concessions. Plan B only wants the Pens to pay somewhere around $3 million a year which they can offset with selling the naming rights.

Plus I think the NHL is going to make it difficult for the Pens to be moved. If Plan B is anywhere near feasible Gary Bettman will make it hard for the Pens to be moved. You can knock the Pens play for the past few years, but they still drew good. Percentagewise they are in the middle of the pack and that is with a run down arena.

Now with a good, young, upcoming team and a new arena that place would be filled most nights.

Will the NHL move another team to KC, then? Seems like a dream for that league to have a city that actually wants in. And not just some city with a arena and nothing else to put it in.

On second thought....

The free rent isn't the real sweetner -- it's the one-half management ownership in the building with no buy-in. The Penguins would get one-half of all building revenue, which includes non-hockey revenue. That means the Penguins would get half the revenue from concerts, college basketball games and other events. The Sprint Center has also already sold all of its suites, so they are guaranteeing that revenue. Plus they get a partner willing to buy into the team -- it's revenue bonanza for the team owners.

No doubt that this is a legitimate option if the Pens can't get what they want in Pittsburgh. Anschutz made it clear in they understand that Pittsburgh doesn't need to match this offer to keep the team. And Kansas City isn't going to try and outbid Pittsburgh. So if they pull off Plan B in the next 30 days, the Penguins will stay. But the city has had eight years to put its act together, so who thinks that will happen in the next month?

Public sentiment on sports radio thus far sounds like Kansas City Penguins is great with us -- it's a great name and I wouldn't want it changed.

Yeah, I don't see what's so awful about KC Penguins. Yes, it's not alliterative like Pittsburgh, but as someone on the radio put it, it's not as if there were Penguins in Pittsburgh.

SI

The KC group leader said on talk radio that he believes it's a better than 50/50 chance that the Pens move to KC. He also said that if the Pens don't happen to move to KC, he's nearly certain that KC will have a NHL franchise via a move or expansion for the 2008-2009 season. He said the NHL commish is eager to get a team in KC as soon as possible.

I would love to see Quebec City or Winnipeg.

Just what the NHL needs: more expansion.

Not expansion, relocation.

Mizzou B-ball fan said KC thinks they're a good shot for expansion if they don't get the Pens.

Bettman has been quoted as wanting to 'grow' the league. Privately, they have discussed expansion once a new TV contract is done as they are not happy with the current one.

My two cents is this. I don't think KC would be a good market to go to. The midwest is football and basketball country and while St. Louis has done ok with the Blues (until lately) it is a much larger city than KC and at least has a positive history with hockey.

Regarding teams in the southern US. I have no problem with it but Bettman needs to admit that some markets just are not working. Tampa is solid, I would give Atlanta a thumbs up because they have had nothing but crap teams until this season so let's see if they support a winner before we condemn them. I think the Panthers may be a lost cause. Nashville is a concern because they have had good teams in the last few years and still struggle at the gate.

As for Pittsburgh my gut says they stay in Pittsburgh and I think that is how it should be. Pittsburgh over the years has a solid history of supporting that team and I think it will get done to let them stay. Here is what I would like to see happen (in my wildest dreams).

Pittsburgh stays put.
Florida Panthers moves to Quebec City (Les Nordiques return)
Nashville moves to Winnipeg.

KC had a minor league team for over 10 years during the 90s that averaged over 13,000 people/game on the weekends and 10,000+ on weekdays. Also, every single NHL exhibition game held in KC over the past several seasons has sold out despite no local interest in any of those teams. There's a reason KC is on the top of the NHL 'next up' list. New arena and a huge fan base hungry for hockey. While the midwest is a big college basketball hotbed, the NBA honestly isn't a big sport here. Most don't like the NBA-style of game in the midwest.

Yes I have read up on KC's minor league team and they had success. But that wa sin the 90s and a minor league team. The NHL team would have MUCH more expensive tickets than the $15 (estimated) tickets that the minor league team had. I just wonder if it would be as successful with a much more expensive night out at the game.

The ticket prices are actually pretty reasonable. Season tickets for all home games will range from $350 for end seats in the upper deck (just under $10/game) all the way up to $5,000 for prime seats on the glass. With that said, all 72 of the suites are already sold and they are currently running a season ticket drive. Corporations alone have already pledged to purchase a large portion of tickets in the arena. They'll most likely sell 80% of the arena in season tickets between corporations and individuals once it's all said and done. The NHL is aware of that. It's a big improvement over the revenue situation in Pittsburgh.

Portland always has a loud group of people fighting to bring hockey in. I honestly don't think that people would support the team well enough, but it's possible that the group that owns the Rose Garden could provide a good schedule that might get people in the doors.

On a side note, the Blazers are offering a new ticket package right now:

You get 2 tickets to 3 games (Suns 2/6, Bobcats 3/1, and the Pistons 3/14) PLUS 2 movie passes AND a $20 Gift Certificate for McCormick and Schmick's Seafood Restaurants for $90 - $400 depending on seats.

Quebec City doesn't have an arena and there was a collective yawn when the Nords left. Hartford would be a much better market and I think the promise of a team could get them to get themselves together to get an arena there. And it's not as if any of the NY-area teams could whine, because there was a team there once before and it's a solid market with a good building if they can get said good building.

Umm, it's not like the KC area is poor...look at Michigan, we lead the nation in unemployment, the Red Wings are some of the most expensive tickets in the league, and they still sell-out every game.

Why did the Cheifs fold?

Pittsburgh 'sweetened' there deal when they met with Mario this week. Another thing to consider is that Mario's billionaire partner helped raise a lot of money for PA's Gov. Ed Rendell. They are buddies and Rendell likes to take care of his people. Also, Rendell is close to the Flyers owner and would influence him and other owners to block a potential move (got the info from KDKA.com).

Is Mark Cuban and his group still in the running?

As of now, Mario has taken the Pens off the market. I don't know if this means that he's not listening to offers or not, and I won't believe Cuban is serious until Mario says it himself.

I thought the calls that the Penguins played in a hellhole might have been overstated, until I saw this video today of the visitor's locker room. Damn, I've seen high schools that have better facilities. Just plain sad.

hxxp://www2.sportsnet.ca/video/videoPlayer.php?url=rtmp://38.99.151.50/sportsnet/SCA_MELLON_07_01_21.1.flv

Pittsburgh is quickly running out of time and Lemieux isn't exactly enthralled with the 'best and final' offer from Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania politicians.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2740053

Talk in KC is that Lemieux's patience with the Pittsburgh officials is wearing really thin. It's not like Pittsburgh didn't know it was coming. They've been saying they need to replace Mellon Arena for several years now.

great googely moogely

Alot of this, in my opinion, is the two sides negotiating through the media, so if/when it falls through, they can all point and say "Hey, look, we did the best we could"--from both sides.

More recent, as of this afternoon.
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07024/756398-100.stm

Honestly, I think the politicians have more to lose in this case. No one would blame the Lemieux group if the team ended up leaving. He stepped in to buy the team and keep it in Pittsburgh. The city and state have had plenty of time to get this ironed out and haven't done so. The government officials are playing with fire and risking losing the team.

If a city like KC can give $500 million to the Royals and Chiefs to renovate their stadiums and build a brand new $250 million arena at the same time, surely Pittsburgh can find money to build a new arena. If they can't, they maybe the Penguins shouldn't stay, which may be the conclusion that Lemieux and the other owners may be coming to at this point.

I assume you're asking about the Scouts, our short-lived NHL team in the '70s. They left town for several reasons, the significant issue being that leagues across the board were struggling in the '70s, the NHL specifically. It's important to note that the Scouts left for Denver to become the Colorado Rockies before failing there and winding up in New Jersey. Denver seems to be doing OK second time around. The No. 2 issue is that Kansas City built its old arena in the absolutely ghetto part of town in the middle of a rundown industrial warehouse area that was a pit. The Kings left in the mid-80s primarily because of the arena -- support for the team was strong, but the arena was a shithole. The new arena is going to be crown jewel in the middle of entertainment district in the heart of dowtown.
No doubt that's exactly what is happening. Pittsburgh's latest proposal still isn't as good as Kansas City's -- I'm seeing what looks like the Penguins having to lay out about $10 million a year to buy out Isle of Capri's deal and contribute to the building before they start getting revenue in addition to giving up development rights on the ground they currently own. In, KC they will pay no money and get half of all building revenues.

I think Mario is playing hardball. If Pennsylvania doesn't sweeten the offer, I think KC has a chance. But I do think the posturing is to get the best deal in Pittsburgh.

Houston is also in on the game as a possible relocation site. Evidently Mario is planning on making a couple of visits since he is in Dallas for the All-Star break.

Sadly, your logical thinking would be lost on a good percentage of the Pittsburgh population. Somehow, they'd see it as Mario owing it to them (much in the same way Cowher owed the fans to not quit/tell us why he's leaving/blah blah blah). They expect the politicians to be liars.


The most recent development--Don Barden, whose group won the Pittsburgh casino license and has pledged $7.5M a year towards a building, is now involved in the sharing of revenues. In the original meeting, Barden was not present or his participation, outside of the slots revenue funding (which is technically with the state, not the Pens). The second meeting he is there, and this splitting of parking and redevelopment revenue is added. Also, yearly rent of $2M, not discussed in the first meeting, was added.

I am not saying the deal itself is not pretty sweet. However, when you put your "best deal on the table" in the first meeting, and then add a $2M a year rent AND split of previously undiscussed revenue...you've changed the deal.

My gut feeling is the deal is good enough that, if it comes to it, the NHL would step in and say a fair enough plan is in place to block the relocation.

Not true. No one would have blamed him if the city/state hadn't put forward a good offer, but from what I've seen, the deal on the table now is pretty good. And you'd better believe that a lot of us that love Mario would turn on him in a heartbeat if he moves our team.

I think involving Barden in the mix is what's really irked Pens ownership. It wasn't a smart move by Rendell to invite him to the meeting. But what can we expect from the Governor of Philadelphia? You know that if this was the Flyers, there never would have been any talk of the team moving. Rendell would have ensured that the state found a way to build them a new arena a long time ago.

Right...the question comes down to:

50% of all building revenue in KC <=> 100% of building revenue + portion of parking revenue/arena development revenue + naming rights $$$ - $2M/year rental - 18% (most recent number) of total arena cost - $10M up front IOC buyout

They know, with the current market for Pens fans, and team pointed upwards, they are guaranteed many sellouts. Plus all the other revenue that comes with a new building (suites, etc). While the rent free building in KC sounds nice, if they are playing to a 60% full building, how long before it is a loss compared to what would have been generated in Pittsburgh?

And that $10M...that might be the stupidiest thing I've ever seen. Why in the world the ownership agreed to that with IOC is beyond me.

If this is true, it is probably the stupidest thing ever. Almost like Mario and company wanted an excuse to get out of town if the IOC deal didn't come about. However, didn't the Pens keep $10 million from Balsillie when he withdrew his bid?

It should also be noted that the Nordiques walked into Denver and promptly won a Stanley Cup, then continued to be one of the half-dozen most dominant teams in the league for a decade. This is a pretty good recipe for success regardless of the location. If you send Winnipeg to Denver and Quebec to Phoenix...

Thankfully, for whoever gets the Penguins, there is a half-decent chance of experiencing something similar, so I could see the Penguins working in KC (just as I could see that team working in a lot of places). Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury... good grief, that's a goldmine Pittsburgh is letting slip away.

Yes, allegedly, they did. But, they didn't know that would happen when they signed the IOC deal. Still doesn't change the fact that was a dumb ass move.

Apparently, Bettman loves the city for a relocation.

Lemieux is in Dallas for the All-Star game...however, it appears there are no plans to visit Houston while in Texas.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07025/756612-61.stm

Word this morning on the airwaves in KC is that the other cities are no longer being considered as a choice for a move per one of the members of the relocation committee here in KC. The Pens are either staying in Pittsburgh or they're moving to KC. This would seem to correlate with some comments from reps in Houston and Winnipeg.