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According to Gamespot, it will be on the PC, PS2, and Xbox. |
Does anyone know if Jim is really working behind the scenes for this game? I would be in tears if this is a graphical overlay to FOF with additional options.
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That preview piques my interest. Although I'll probably still wait for impressions here/rent it first maybe.
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My prediction is that this is the game that most of us dream about. It'll be nearly perfect but have some flaws, that while not showstoppers will be annoying. We'll anticipate the next version, but the EA fanbase will do a collective yawn to the title and it'll be either one and done, or last 2 versions. And damn, i wish Sega would port the 2K5 football to PC. Maybe fix it up a touch. Then we could have Maximum Customizability!
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all we are asking for is FOF realism and detail with Madden graphics.
My only concern is EA concentrating on nonsense like "add Deion to the offense" and not getting the core realism correct. The thing that most encourages me is "one level of play". If the game is realistic the concept of levels of play (rookie, all-star, etc) and sliders simply don't apply. |
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Think about it - they have ratings for various categories of player ability and particular ways of calculating what the end result of any play would be, but are they so detailed that they describe a player juking to his left to dodge an OLB pinching in from the outside, then using a particular kind of stiffarm move to knock a CB on his ass before being forced out of bounds at a particular point because of the speed and angle that the FS had on the play? It's possible, but I doubt either sim goes into that much granularity of detail. And yet, that's what you'd need to drive a 3-D graphical representation (of every player on the field no less), and it's why people complain that Madden (and the other 3-D football games) aren't as realistic in their outcomes as the text-sims - it's levels of magnitude more complex to model AI and physical attributes well enough to represent it in a graphical format that has to come close to matching watching a game live on TV than it is to devise formulas to derive realistic results in a text-sim where you don't actually see the play unfolding or extreme detail in exactly what happened on each play. Maybe I'm off-base here in my assessments of the current text-sims, and if I am I'd welcome Jim or Arlie correcting me, but I have my doubts that their sim engines provide enough information to drive a full 3-D graphical representation. |
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For Madden, yes that wouldn't be doable, since people are playing with a joystick. In other words, a person's actions determine how a play turns out. For this game however, the output is coming from the stats. If FOF had a sim engine underneath that, the result would determine how the action is played on the field. In other words, if the sim engine would say that there was a 15 yard rushing gain off the right guard, the graphics would simply be used as showing how to show it and it could have a number of creative ways to show how this person gained 15 yards off the right guard. FOF would already determine the success/failure of a play before it is shown. The job of the overlay is to come up with creative ways to show that success or failure. So let's say that a running back has above average strength, but poor agility. If the FOF sim engine says he went 15 yards and he was tackled by a slow linebacker, it could show this running back running behind some successful blocks as he bowls over a few people along the way. I am not saying this will be the easiest task, but it is doable. It is just a whole different way of thinking. |
This will probably be an egg, If it's anything like this year's superstar/heisman system they implemented into Madden/NCAA iit will be terrible - you wouldn't even know they tested either of those games.
On the positive side, this would be a great year for Jim to release a new FOF so that he could get some of the potential new fan base that comes along with this game. |
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It is levels of magnitude easier to write a sim engine that calculates the outcome in text and numbers based on various factors vs. describing such an outcome in enough detail to drive a realistic 3-D representation of such (what did each of the blocking interactions look like? How exactly did that RB move? How exactly did those LB's and DB's react in reading the play?) |
It's not that black and white, dawgfan.
Some of the finest minds in the programming world are tackling the issue of how we walk. Only in the last few years have robots been developed that walk like we do. There are collision and reaction algorithms for walking and rolling robots that allow them to maneuver in increasingly large worlds. Some of that is trickling into our domain, like vacuum robots. Madden is a fine achievement. But it is not intended to do anything more than simulate movement in a very rough manner. It's just a few shades of grey closer to real football, and its algorithms make assumptions about football, just like the most simplistic 3-D programs and text sims which just say "I know my guard took on your linebacker with a block, and he was successful, so my running back gained more yardage." If you want to go into specific realistic blocking interactions, we are a long, long way from getting that done. Do Madden offensive linemen, much like sumo wrestlers, maintain a successful pass block by being better at keeping a constant low center of gravity than their peers? Or is success of a pass block simply a die roll based on ratings, like what I do? I couldn't disagree more about the concept that throwing enough engineers at a project ensures its success. That's what managers at corporations do, and it doesn't work in practice. It takes a long time to get up to speed with code, and some projects are best suited for one person or a small group. |
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More on topic, what Antmeister describes is similar to what a couple of the older soccer sims already had about 10 years ago. There were games with preset 'movies' to show as the highlights of a game. 'Movies' presenting the actions preceding a shot wide or saved looked so similar to the goal 'movies', it was almost impossible to tell what the outcome would be while watching the game unfold. It's basically what Ant's asking for, but he wants it in fancy Madden 2006 graphics. But that would mean making two inconsistent chunks of code, instead of creating logic of how a game plays out. Quote:
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Actually it was a little more subtle. Each NFLEU team has to have a number of national players (where national != american). Every other offenseive and every other defensive series needs to have a national on the field at all times. Similarly, field goals under a certain distance (30yrds?) and pat's are done by national kicker. For the claymores, they had ex-rugby guy Gavin Hastings kick for a while. |
ah good ol' Gavin Hastings, my favorite Scottish rugby player! What a class act he was!
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That just sounds too good. It has got to suck for it to sound that good. |
Another hands-on preview:
http://xbox.ign.com/articles/699/699404p1.html Mel Kiper recorded info on 40 draft classes. That's insane. |
Best line from the preview:
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:D |
Did I read that preview correctly? They are going to let you create plays as well? My cautious optimism is growing.
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Why exactly isnt this on the 360. I doubt it will be backwards compatable either, which totally sucks.
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I am starting to get a little nervous. I am getting more and more excited for this, which only means the letdown will be that much greater.
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Why can't this be on the psp? :(
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You should see a doctor about that... ;) |
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This is exactly how I'm feeling, a sort of sick internal interplay between naive excitement and cynical pessimism. I can't wait until we get closer to a release and my boyish optimism and condescending sarcasm grind my life to a halt with an epicly navel-gazing battle in my own mind! |
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Joe Stallings is reading this thread. I feel a chill down my spine.
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I've been wandering for a few minutes if he will post in it. |
Delayed Dola,
So, work is VERY slow today and the last hour or so at work is dragging. I decided to visit Operation Sports. They mention quite a few things that are definitely increasing my desire to check this out: - QB's now have accuracy ratings for short, intermediate, and long throws. QB's have a rating for accuracy while throwing on the run. There are other new ratings as well. - The previewer told Lynch to go for big hits because the Broncos were down late, and he noticed that Lynch played differently and made more mistakes but did make one big hit. - Similarly, he told Bailey to gamble for picks more and he noticed a change in the manner in which Bailey was covering his guy. - Many options when talking to the QB including: Throw it to the #1 receiver more, scramble more, stay in the pocket more, focus on throwing it underneath, throw it quickly, etc. Assistants are fully licensed (each team has their real coaches when you start the game - unless the coach isn't in the union such as Bill Parcells) and include: Offensive Coordinator, Defensive Coordinator, Special Teams Coach, QB Coach, RB Coach, WR Coach, TE Coach, Offensive Line Coach, Defensive Line Coach, Linebackers Coach, and DB Coach! - No Sliders! No difficulty levels. The game is just supposed to be calibrated for realistic stats by the time it is released. A few negatives: - "I don't believe they are trying to be in depth as Front Office Football or Championship Manager." - Stat tracking isn't as deep as most text sims. |
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Well said, my friend. This game is on my "to be determined" radar. Screaming into a headset at my quarterback sounds almost liberating. |
http://pc.ign.com/articles/699/699431p2.html
THE COLTS O-LINE COACH IS HOWARD MUDD NOT HOWARD BUTTER :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: |
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Did you not read the part about non-licensed coaches? |
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I'm going to be such a fan-boy if they can get this right. The big question is how big will the bugs be? It is EA, so you know there are going to be bugs (both on the computer and console versions), so it is just a matter of if they will be gamestoppers are not. My guess is there will be at least one that will be super annoying and never fixed. Like O-linemen getting a billion pancakes and over-developing, or not getting any and not developing at all. |
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I agree with all points. My optimism is growing and will probably be crushed by one of those super annoying bugs. |
I hope I am wrong, but I really have little hope for this.
I don't think we (the text sim community) are the target market for this, it is the current madden players. The type who just want an ubber team and would scream bloody murder if a #1 pick went bust. Going by the madden franchise mode, it will not be realistic or offer much of a challenge. After saying that, I'm sure I will buy it anyway |
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I actually think it's more of a "middle ground" thing. My guess it is made for older Madden players whose button-mashing skills are behind them and need more of an intellectual challenge. It may not be directly marketed to the text-based crowd, as in the "give me spreadsheets or give me death!" kind of person who is more interested in stats than the actual game. But I do think it is for guys like me. I like stats, but the actual games are more important to me. Simming through 10 seasons a night bores me. I want to see the games, and make a real impact on them. I want to see the players on the field, and what I tell them to do to make an impact (positive and negative) on the field. The idea that this might happen excites me to no end. This game is going to market right to the old FBPro crowd that has been without representation (well, except for the travesty which is Maximum Football) for many, many years. Please Joe, don't let this suck. |
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This is along the lines of what I am thinking as well.......(again, I sense that my sn is being taken is vain) :) Looking forward to this one and will likely get it on day one(UNLESS I can resist). |
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This is what I'm thinking as well. |
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Exactly my viewpoint. |
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Ditto. I like to feel like I am actually a part of the game world, not just some guy reading through stats. |
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Now, I may be wrong on this, but I suspect that your sim doesn't actually calculate exactly where the ball and every player on the field are at all times but is making more generalized predictions of probably outcomes given the input of play type preferences and the ability ratings of the players on the field at that time. Does your sim provide enough information to drive the level of detail you see in action in a 3D football game like Madden (flawed though that action can look at times)? Quote:
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Will this game support multi player?
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Trying to not to get my hopes too high, less I be massively disappointed - but the latest review has me harder then chinese math!
starting before the draft create you own plays no slider, or levels - thus the implication of "real" results madden level graphics I have honestly never had more anticipation for a video game ever. I might need to take a week off when this is released. |
One thing that struck me was that there are supposedly only 40 different draft classes that Kiper does commentary for. If that means that there are only 40 different possibilities, then this game could be very underwhelming. Hopefully they mix the classes up some, and hopefully there is a variance on the players meaning one time a guy is a star, and another time not so much. Still, I'm hesitantly excited, and will probably give this a shot.
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40 draft classes=40 year career cap which IMO should be plenty, especially with the on-field depth. i rarely get through 10 years of madden careers, and even my longest ever FOF career is only like 56 years. |
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Yeah the number is plenty, but what I'm worried about is if they are preset. Then you will have potential spoilers from others to avoid, not to mention zero-replay value at all. It would be cool if you could turn that feature off and just have random draft classes without kiper's input or some generic descriptions or something, but I am worried about the scripted draft classes. Lots of other things in this have me excited, I would be disappointed if something like this nearly ruins it. |
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oh i see what you mean, because then anytime you get to a certain year you know the draft class outcome. i THINK ea is smart enough to avoid that. that's never been a problem for Madden. What I assume that means is that Kiper recorded script for 40 draft classes worth of players, or 40 draft classes worth of generic scripts that can be mixed and matched. like i said, it's never been a problem in madden so i wouldn't think it'd be a problem here....but who knows |
I too am highly anticipating this game after reading the previews. If done even halfway decently this game could be the game of my dreams. I think the graphical side of playing the games will really add to the immersion. Holding my breath...
I do hope they've revamped the contract system a bit. I play madden with a buddy where we each control a franchise during franchise mode and then play 2 divisional games against each other every year. Its waaaay too easy to cheat. Addressing one of the questions above I did read something about the draft classes being "dynamic" meaning that players won't always progress the same. (Cmon, just call it X-factor EA!) Has anyone heard anything about multiplayer? (Not on xbox live...) |
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It sounds like it is the same class each time from the previews I've read. The 2007 class will always be the same. However, if a game takes 45 minutes to play out (which I'm assuming it will since Madden usually takes at least that long) there is plenty of action packed into a 40 year career. |
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That would be so wonderful. |
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. and if the game is $50 that's still...just over $1 a year. which is quite good value if a year takes you...20 hours of gameplay - conservative estimate (let's just say...45 minutes a game x 16 games + assorted non-game tasks). |
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I'm still a little disappointed, but it won't be too bad if there is some randomness to how the players develop. |
I don't think I would come close to hitting a dozen seasons, much less forty.
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