Originally Posted by Chubby

what system is this for? pc/360/ps2?

Originally Posted by AgustusM

all we are asking for is FOF realism and detail with Madden graphics.

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I guess Jim and/or Arlie could jump in here and address this, but I have a feeling this "wish" is harder to acheive than most people realize. I don't know to what level of detail games like FOF and TPF go to in calculating all that happens in a particular play in their sims, but I have my doubts that they are as intricate and granular in detail as what would be necessary to drive a full 3-D graphical representation like you see in Madden or 2K Sports.

Think about it - they have ratings for various categories of player ability and particular ways of calculating what the end result of any play would be, but are they so detailed that they describe a player juking to his left to dodge an OLB pinching in from the outside, then using a particular kind of stiffarm move to knock a CB on his ass before being forced out of bounds at a particular point because of the speed and angle that the FS had on the play? It's possible, but I doubt either sim goes into that much granularity of detail. And yet, that's what you'd need to drive a 3-D graphical representation (of every player on the field no less), and it's why people complain that Madden (and the other 3-D football games) aren't as realistic in their outcomes as the text-sims - it's levels of magnitude more complex to model AI and physical attributes well enough to represent it in a graphical format that has to come close to matching watching a game live on TV than it is to devise formulas to derive realistic results in a text-sim where you don't actually see the play unfolding or extreme detail in exactly what happened on each play.

Maybe I'm off-base here in my assessments of the current text-sims, and if I am I'd welcome Jim or Arlie correcting me, but I have my doubts that their sim engines provide enough information to drive a full 3-D graphical representation.

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

For Madden, yes that wouldn't be doable, since people are playing with a joystick. In other words, a person's actions determine how a play turns out.

For this game however, the output is coming from the stats. If FOF had a sim engine underneath that, the result would determine how the action is played on the field. In other words, if the sim engine would say that there was a 15 yard rushing gain off the right guard, the graphics would simply be used as showing how to show it and it could have a number of creative ways to show how this person gained 15 yards off the right guard.

FOF would already determine the success/failure of a play before it is shown. The job of the overlay is to come up with creative ways to show that success or failure. So let's say that a running back has above average strength, but poor agility. If the FOF sim engine says he went 15 yards and he was tackled by a slow linebacker, it could show this running back running behind some successful blocks as he bowls over a few people along the way.

I am not saying this will be the easiest task, but it is doable. It is just a whole different way of thinking.

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

That has always been the case in NFL Europe. Since soccer was so big over there, it was the NFL's way of "pumping up" the importance of the kicking game.

Originally Posted by AugustusM

My only concern is EA concentrating on nonsense like "add Deion to the offense" and not getting the core realism correct.

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Saw this preview on Gamespot and my cautious optimism grows a bit more. I like the idea of dynamic ratings and of course, I've always wanted a great coach mode for Madden in which I could call plays and get realistic results. Maybe this will deliver. Here is the preview:

NFL Head Coach First Look


We stalk the sidelines in our hands-on look at EA's NFL strategy sim.
All off-field activities in Head Coach are calendar-based; you usually have three or four activities to attend to per calendar day. Your morning might be spent going over e-mails and fielding phone calls, while later in the day you'll head to a staff meeting with your coaches, head back to your desk for a meeting with your scouting coach, and then end the day looking at your salary cap numbers and figuring out just how you're going to find the cash to pay for that upcoming first-round draft pick. As the free-agent signing period begins, you'll want to make sure you have your eye on who's available to sign to fill holes in your roster, and, of course, you'll want to make sure you're always up on the latest scouting reports in preparation for the draft. Weekly meetings with your scouting coach help things here, as do handy search filters that let you search among draft players along criteria such as position and skill level.

The NFL Draft itself gives you a seat in your own personal war room as you watch draft picks fly off the board. You can choose to run the draft in an approximation of real time (each CPU-controlled team has 30 seconds to make a pick, while you have a full five minutes), or you can choose to skip directly to your next pick. ESPN's Mel Kiper is also on hand to run down the top draft picks and provide analysis of each and every pick you make. If he doesn't like your pick, you'll know about it.
As the regular season approaches and your roster begins to settle down, you can run your players through a series of practice drills, which are designed not only to help your players improve, but also to give you a better picture of their abilities. Unlike in Madden, player ratings are dynamic in NFL Head Coach, and any particular player has a range in which he can perform. The overall attribute of a volatile player, such as Michael Vick, for example, might fluctuate from the low 70s on a bad day to the mid-90s on a day when everything is going his way. It's an interesting concept that takes into consideration each player's potential for greatness, as well as failure.

As you can tell, there is a lot to do in Head Coach's off-season, but that's only part of the equation. After all, preparation wins games, but you still have to play things out on the field. When coaching a game in Head Coach, you'll be watching the game as you might a regular game of Madden, with some crucial differences. One of the biggest changes is the available camera angles. We counted six available cameras in the game (though that number may change in the final build)--from traditional behind-the-QB looks, to sideline cameras (complete with your coaching avatar roaming up and down the sidelines), to our personal favorite, a high-vantage-point, top-down look at the field, showing the offensive and defensive formations with perfect clarity.

Perhaps it goes without saying, but in Head Coach, you're responsible for calling the plays (which you can do with either standard controls or via voice commands using a headset) and snapping the ball. Once the play begins, the game is more or less out of your hands. Before the ball is snapped, however, you can do things like call audibles and change protection coverage, but you'll have only a small window of time to make that happen (that is, before the play clock runs down or your opponent snaps the ball). However, your responsibilities in-game go a bit deeper than simply calling the play and watching how things unfold on the grass. At any point in the game, you can choose to talk to the players on the sideline to provide either strategic advice or specific motivation (and by "motivation" we mean a good dressing down). The amount of depth here is impressive--if you choose to talk to your quarterbacks, for example, you can choose to talk to either the entire group or to one particular QB. From there you can choose specific areas of focus to discuss, such as pass height, patience in the pocket, whether to focus on the number one receiver or spread the ball around, and so on--you can even tell your QB to take your advice to heart for the next play, the next drive, or the rest of the game.

This kind of coaching depth is available for every position on the field and will ensure that you will be very busy on the sidelines. Even better, as you hold these impromptu coaching sessions, your assistant coaches will take over play calling and the game will continue progressing. You can then choose to take back the reins at any time. Another factor weighs into the mix here: trust. How much your players trust you will determine how willing they are to follow your orders and how positively (or negatively) they respond to your motivation.

In practice, we found that the amount of time split between calling plays and coaching players on the sideline was about 70/30--depending on the results we were getting on the field. If our team was blowing it, of course, we spent a good deal more time trying to coax good performances out of them; if we had the game well in hand, it was simply a matter of calling smart plays and winding the clock down.

Head Coach will feature only one difficulty level, pitting your strategic football mind against the artificial intelligence or against a buddy online. The game will have some interaction with the next version of Madden, mainly by letting you export your current Head Coach team into Madden; certainly it would be nice to see more synergy between the two games, but perhaps that's an issue best left for future iterations of Head Coach.
By blending the in-depth details of traditional management sims with the familiar look of the Madden game engine, EA Sports is looking to craft NFL Head Coach into a management sim that is quite a bit different from the stat- and text-intensive Championship Managers of the world. The real challenge will be in delivering a game that is approachable enough for folks who have perhaps outgrown the "twitchier" aspects of Madden, while still providing NFL fanatics with an interesting--and, more importantly, authentic--twist to their favorite sport. Head Coach is due for release in June 2006.

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

My cautious optimism is growing.

Originally Posted by ice4277

I am starting to get a little nervous. I am getting more and more excited for this, which only means the letdown will be that much greater.

Originally Posted by MalcPow

This is exactly how I'm feeling, a sort of sick internal interplay between naive excitement and cynical pessimism. I can't wait until we get closer to a release and my boyish optimism and condescending sarcasm grind my life to a halt with an epicly navel-gazing battle in my own mind!

Originally Posted by John Galt

Joe Stallings is reading this thread. I feel a chill down my spine.

Originally Posted by MalcPow

This is exactly how I'm feeling, a sort of sick internal interplay between naive excitement and cynical pessimism. I can't wait until we get closer to a release and my boyish optimism and condescending sarcasm grind my life to a halt with an epicly navel-gazing battle in my own mind!

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

http://pc.ign.com/articles/699/699431p2.html

THE COLTS O-LINE COACH IS HOWARD MUDD NOT HOWARD BUTTER :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Delayed Dola,

So, work is VERY slow today and the last hour or so at work is dragging. I decided to visit Operation Sports. They mention quite a few things that are definitely increasing my desire to check this out:

- QB's now have accuracy ratings for short, intermediate, and long throws. QB's have a rating for accuracy while throwing on the run. There are other new ratings as well.

- The previewer told Lynch to go for big hits because the Broncos were down late, and he noticed that Lynch played differently and made more mistakes but did make one big hit.

- Similarly, he told Bailey to gamble for picks more and he noticed a change in the manner in which Bailey was covering his guy.

- Many options when talking to the QB including: Throw it to the #1 receiver more, scramble more, stay in the pocket more, focus on throwing it underneath, throw it quickly, etc.

Assistants are fully licensed (each team has their real coaches when you start the game - unless the coach isn't in the union such as Bill Parcells) and include: Offensive Coordinator, Defensive Coordinator, Special Teams Coach, QB Coach, RB Coach, WR Coach, TE Coach, Offensive Line Coach, Defensive Line Coach, Linebackers Coach, and DB Coach!

- No Sliders! No difficulty levels. The game is just supposed to be calibrated for realistic stats by the time it is released.

A few negatives:

- "I don't believe they are trying to be in depth as Front Office Football or Championship Manager."

- Stat tracking isn't as deep as most text sims.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I'm going to be such a fan-boy if they can get this right. The big question is how big will the bugs be? It is EA, so you know there are going to be bugs (both on the computer and console versions), so it is just a matter of if they will be gamestoppers are not. My guess is there will be at least one that will be super annoying and never fixed. Like O-linemen getting a billion pancakes and over-developing, or not getting any and not developing at all.

Originally Posted by Surtt

I hope I am wrong, but I really have little hope for this.
I don't think we (the text sim community) are the target market for this, it is the current madden players. The type who just want an ubber team and would scream bloody murder if a #1 pick went bust. Going by the madden franchise mode, it will not be realistic or offer much of a challenge.
After saying that, I'm sure I will buy it anyway

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I actually think it's more of a "middle ground" thing. My guess it is made for older Madden players whose button-mashing skills are behind them and need more of an intellectual challenge. It may not be directly marketed to the text-based crowd, as in the "give me spreadsheets or give me death!" kind of person who is more interested in stats than the actual game. But I do think it is for guys like me. I like stats, but the actual games are more important to me. Simming through 10 seasons a night bores me. I want to see the games, and make a real impact on them. I want to see the players on the field, and what I tell them to do to make an impact (positive and negative) on the field. The idea that this might happen excites me to no end.

This game is going to market right to the old FBPro crowd that has been without representation (well, except for the travesty which is Maximum Football) for many, many years. Please Joe, don't let this suck.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I actually think it's more of a "middle ground" thing. My guess it is made for older Madden players whose button-mashing skills are behind them and need more of an intellectual challenge. It may not be directly marketed to the text-based crowd, as in the "give me spreadsheets or give me death!" kind of person who is more interested in stats than the actual game. But I do think it is for guys like me. I like stats, but the actual games are more important to me. Simming through 10 seasons a night bores me. I want to see the games, and make a real impact on them. I want to see the players on the field, and what I tell them to do to make an impact (positive and negative) on the field. The idea that this might happen excites me to no end.

This game is going to market right to the old FBPro crowd that has been without representation (well, except for the travesty which is Maximum Football) for many, many years. Please Joe, don't let this suck.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

This game is going to market right to the old FBPro crowd that has been without representation (well, except for the travesty which is Maximum Football) for many, many years. Please Joe, don't let this suck.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I like stats, but the actual games are more important to me. Simming through 10 seasons a night bores me. I want to see the games, and make a real impact on them. I want to see the players on the field, and what I tell them to do to make an impact (positive and negative) on the field.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It's not that black and white, dawgfan.

Some of the finest minds in the programming world are tackling the issue of how we walk. Only in the last few years have robots been developed that walk like we do.

There are collision and reaction algorithms for walking and rolling robots that allow them to maneuver in increasingly large worlds. Some of that is trickling into our domain, like vacuum robots.

Madden is a fine achievement. But it is not intended to do anything more than simulate movement in a very rough manner. It's just a few shades of grey closer to real football, and its algorithms make assumptions about football, just like the most simplistic 3-D programs and text sims which just say "I know my guard took on your linebacker with a block, and he was successful, so my running back gained more yardage."

If you want to go into specific realistic blocking interactions, we are a long, long way from getting that done. Do Madden offensive linemen, much like sumo wrestlers, maintain a successful pass block by being better at keeping a constant low center of gravity than their peers? Or is success of a pass block simply a die roll based on ratings, like what I do?

Originally Posted by stevew

One thing that struck me was that there are supposedly only 40 different draft classes that Kiper does commentary for. If that means that there are only 40 different possibilities, then this game could be very underwhelming. Hopefully they mix the classes up some, and hopefully there is a variance on the players meaning one time a guy is a star, and another time not so much. Still, I'm hesitantly excited, and will probably give this a shot.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

40 draft classes=40 year career cap

which IMO should be plenty, especially with the on-field depth. i rarely get through 10 years of madden careers, and even my longest ever FOF career is only like 56 years.

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

Yeah the number is plenty, but what I'm worried about is if they are preset. Then you will have potential spoilers from others to avoid, not to mention zero-replay value at all. It would be cool if you could turn that feature off and just have random draft classes without kiper's input or some generic descriptions or something, but I am worried about the scripted draft classes. Lots of other things in this have me excited, I would be disappointed if something like this nearly ruins it.

Originally Posted by stevew

One thing that struck me was that there are supposedly only 40 different draft classes that Kiper does commentary for. If that means that there are only 40 different possibilities, then this game could be very underwhelming. Hopefully they mix the classes up some, and hopefully there is a variance on the players meaning one time a guy is a star, and another time not so much. Still, I'm hesitantly excited, and will probably give this a shot.

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Why can't this be on the psp? :(

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

It sounds like it is the same class each time from the previews I've read. The 2007 class will always be the same. However, if a game takes 45 minutes to play out (which I'm assuming it will since Madden usually takes at least that long) there is plenty of action packed into a 40 year career.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

. and if the game is $50 that's still...just over $1 a year. which is quite good value if a year takes you...20 hours of gameplay - conservative estimate (let's just say...45 minutes a game x 16 games + assorted non-game tasks).