Oh, I'm not sauing they aren';t out there. I consider myself a moderate, I just don't like to see what I grew up knowing to be true be called hateful and bigoted.

I'm aware there is a difference between conservative and christian, but we are talking about the article correct?

Everyone uses something as hate. The crusades, the abortion doctor killers, the missionaries killed in other parts all use something to justify their means. Doesn't mean they were right to use it and also doesn't mean the ideal they used supported their actions.

As a child of God and believer in Jesus Christ, I did not know that the prohibition in the freedom of thought and attempting to understand the other side of a moral issue whether I agree with it or not was part of the deal.

I don't think it is.

This is why the discussion needs to be kept in broad terms, more or less along the lines of points-of-view. To start taking extreme examples just shows your lack of insight in general. An easy response to your comment is the "In-Your-Face" Gay Parade in San Fransisco, not too mention a little organization called 'Queer Nation" that basically ambushes people. How many pedophile stories do you want regarding homosexual behavior? (Don't get on your Catholic Priest horse either, I'm not Catholic and your just proving my point...studies show many gay men become priests to deal with their problems)

Oy Vey BW

Dola

With that, I'm off to work

I'm with Dobbs.

Offensive Myth #1: Gays are pedophiles.

Facts: The large majority of pedophiles are straight. Conservative groups who support the myth that gays are pedophlies by saying a man who molests a boy is "gay" even if he is "straight" with adults. This distortion of statistics supports one of the most offensive myths against gays. Not surprisingly, Bubba uses it.


And you know what I hate - all those "in your face" straight events like homecoming, prom, and marriage. I mean, why don't those people do those things in private?

How did an article about a girl organizing a group about waiting to have sex turn into a "prom oppresses gay people" thread?

We can agree on that! Decentralize the public school monopoly, allow vouchers to let parents send kids to schools that promote their own values and ethics, and your school can do away with whatever it wants. (Don't like the fact that you'd lose your largest vehicle of socialist indoctrination to the young that way, do you?) :D

Just to point out - I was not arguing that - I was being sarcastic because Bubba complained gay parades were "in your face."

Yeah, schools are "socialist." :rolleyes:

And I'm sure the solution is private schools with different values. Imagine that in 1950 - all the blacks go to school a, all the whites go to schools b,c, and d, hispanics and asians can share school e, etc. Yeah, that's a great idea.

By the way, you claim pedophiles being homosexual is a myth, then state something else as fact: you need to site your source, otherwise your just parroting talking points for your point of view from others that support you even though they may not be correct.

I'd say pedophiles come in all shapes and sizes.

That's pretty much the way it is today under the public school system. And fact is, the most highly sought-after private Christian high school in our area (admission is very tough), is also one of the most highly intergrated and diversified schools in addition.

Since you will probably dismiss any gay group I cite, I will cite a Christian one (although you probably won't like the Unitarians either):

hxxp://www.uugroton.org/myths.htm

The evidence is easy to find if you look beyond the homophobe cites.

I'm sorry, was there a cite? Or are you just "parroting talking points for your point of view?"

Its a fact that can easily be checked out. Its not some myth/fact reference that can be anything the poster claims it to be.

Now your ignorance is running rampant. Unitarians are not Christians, their whole existance as a 'church' is to take on the trappings and organization of a Christian denomination while remaining atheist. You either knew that and tried to pull a fast one, or your really behind the curve on the facts. :p

It is a "fact that can easily be checked out" that modern American school systems are tools of socialist indoctrination?

I knew you wouldn't like it, but my understanding is that Unitarians are Judeo-Christian faith that uses the Bible as the source of teachings. Maybe I am wrong on that - I don't know.

Either way, just look at crime stats or 1000 other cites to find the truth on this issue.

Unitarians are not atheists. Atheists are people who do not believe in the existance of a deity. Unitarians, many of them at least, do believe in the existance of a deity, or higher power, or spiritual dimension or whatever. Its just not important to them to have a doctrinaire view of what it is. You can ask ten Unitarians to define what the divine is to them, and you will get ten answers, but most of them will say that they think, or believe, that there is something there.

Put another way, Christians pray to God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Jews pray to Ha'shem. (Standard Jewish way of refering to God without actually stating his Hebrew name.)
Islamics pray to Allah
Shintoists pray to a variety of deities.
Members of the American Indian Church pray to the Great Spirit.
Unitarians pray to whatever is out there listening.

I predict that Melissa Millis will become known around the dorms as a crazed sex maniac after 6 months at college. As long as she doesn't go to Oral Roberts or become a lesbian.

I liken it to people who never had a drink in high school and are always the ones who turn into the uncontrollable drunks in college. The craziest person I met didn't lose her virginity until her sophomore year at college.

That was my initial hypothesis that got buried in legitimate discussion...

Sorry, I didn't read the posts before I posted. I had that immediate reaction and wanted to post without polluting the beauty of the image. :)

No actually I enjoyed revisiting it...I pretend she's hot and I'm back in college and...uh...uh...


gotta go.

Wake me up when it is National ButtFucking Lesbians Day...

Bubba, to begin with, there is nothing "anti-christian" about homosexuality, thousands if not tens of thousands of christians are gay. It happens, accept it. Secondly, there is nothing Anti-christian in teaching kids how to not get pregnant if they DO for whatever reason have sex. so frankly, your example is a load of horse shit, please shovel it back into your load where it came from.

People being killed because of their religion is historic, its happened for all time. From my own research and readings on the subject I can promise you that far more have died at the hands of christians than the other way around at this point. The very fact that you bring up this subject tells me just how closed your mind is to other points of view.

And as for the respecting of rights and sensitivities, when christian "bible thumpers" stop mid sermon and say "you know, I'm sorry, you obviously don't want to hear this, I'll leave you alone now" and do so, when they are trying their best to convert me. I'll give them the same respect and not tell them how completely assinine they're being. Religion is a PERSONAL spiritual journey, no single person in the world has the right to tell another person how they should believe. Enjoy your personal beliefs, but don't even think of projecting yours on to my way of life. Just because your religion says its the only true way, doesn't mean its right. it just means its ignorant.


*Edit* sorry i got a bit off track there:

The idea that they want to promote abstinence is fine, its not a bad thing for high school kids, they should grow up more before getting into sex. However, I can see the homosexuals point of view that the wording and perception of this campaign is biased against them. They can't marry, and using the word "until marriage" is something that will hit them straight in the face. Call it abstinance day, and suddenly they'll be being open and accepting to ALL people.

And just to add to this: Being abstinant does not define being pure. Their whole thought process is wrong there.

Outstanding post Aardvark.

At the risk of blowing this thread wide open, I must disagree. The bible states homosexuality is an abomination. YOu cant be Christian and be gay. I fully accept the fact that about half a dozen people on here are going to go berzerk on me for saying that, but the bible doesnt leave much room for discussion on the subject.

You're missing the point. Only you need to cite things, anything he says has to be factually correct.

As I've said in many threads before, it is hardly a settled fact that the Bible condemns gays. There are several books on the subject and translations/interpretations make it quite possible for people to be gay and christian.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...52062?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...52062?v=glance

Also, there are plenty of websites on these issues (many that are balanced and go both ways):

hxxp://www.ambs.edu/LJohns/Homosexuality.htm

hxxp://www.whosoever.org/v2i5/defense.html

hxxp://hem.passagen.se/nicb/bible.htm

hxxp://www.bridges-across.org/ba/herzog-brauch.htm

hxxp://www.jeramyt.org/gay/gaybib.html

hxxp://www.ucc.org/theology/acton1.htm

This is far from an open and shut issue (even though the mainstream conception is like yours). I hope that people learn that there are many paths to christian faith and to wholly exclude gays is just not right.

http://www.bible.org/docs/splife/chrhome/homo.htm

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.
The Apostle Paul, writing by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declares that homosexuality "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9; 10).

In the Bible, marriage is a divinely ordered institution designed to form a permanent union between one man and one woman for one purpose (among others) of procreating or propagating the human race. That was God's order in the first of such unions (Genesis 1:27, 28; 2:24; Matthew 19:5). If, in His original creation of humans, God had created two persons of the same sex, there would not be a human race in existence today. The whole idea of two persons of the same sex marrying is absurd, unsound, ridiculously unreasonable, stupid. A clergyman might bless a homosexual marriage but God won't.

My two favorite quotes so far from that cite:

"The word "gay" means merry, exuberant, bright, lively. More recently it has been adopted by homosexuals. In its original use it did not have this double meaning. The clever adaptation of the word "gay" by homosexuals has robbed it of its pure meaning, thereby corrupting a once perfectly good word. I never use the word "gay" when referring to homosexuals. There are many bright, exuberant, merry people in this world who are not sexual perverts."

"However, religious sex perverts are plentiful among protestants."



And one key point in all of this: the key quotes that are used to condemn gays are in Leviticus, yet Chrisitians seem to have no trouble ignoring all the other different parts of Leviticus (especially the dietary ones). Look at the bibliography cite I listed. 100s of articles and books both ways have been written on this subject. It is far from settled and certainly not by the bigot who authored the cite you listed.

I'm more than willing to believe the Bible condemns homosexuality, but I think it is hardly clear and I don't pretend to know the answer.

More "fun" quotes from Noble's cite:

"Yes, I believe there are. I have not done much research in this area, however, studies made by others showed varied deviations from the average or normal parent-child relationship. For example, clinical cases show that some homosexuals have not had a normal or natural relationship with the parent of the same sex. In some instances there has been a wide gap between father and son. There are those boys who have been neglected by their unaffectionate fathers. The boy who has not had a good and wholesome relationship with his father could have an unfulfilled need for a father relationship with a man. Now that need will not start out as a sexual one, but there are cases on record in which the sexual relationship has developed. I know one case of a homosexual adult who seduced a 13 year old boy whose father had forsaken him. Before the boy's contact with the older man he had no knowledge whatever of homosexuality. The older man seduced the boy."

"Studies" - sounds impressive.

"Q. Does the Bible tell us how the church should deal with sexual sins?
In Old Testament times in Israel God dealt severely with homosexuals. He warned His people through Moses, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). Every Jew knew that homosexuality was an abomination, a disgusting practice to be loathed, hated. This was God's attitude toward that evil practice. He hated it to the extent that He considered it worthy of punishment by death."

Gays should be killed. That's nice.

"Q. Have you personally counseled with homosexuals?
Yes, in two pastorates over a period of twenty-five years. In each instance the homosexual was a man in his thirties who had seduced teen-aged boys. The seduction of younger persons is a pattern most homosexuals follow. They seem to prefer gratifying their lust with youth. This is a pattern typical of men who marry several wives. Men who do not respect their marriage vows pursue women younger than themselves. "

This guy is just on crack now.

I often wish to bring my perspective to these types of threads, but then I remember the wisdom of Matthew 7:6 and go back to my corner.

I see, since the author of the site I listed doesnt agree with you he/she is a bigot. Also, I hardly see how its the author who is a bigot, unless you mean the author of Leviticus.

I chose the site I did for the scripture verses, not their spin. It came up first on google. Why not read the bible verses and take them for what they are instead of looking to discredit the author

Read the quotes I listed above. When asked how the church should deal with gays, he goes into a rant about how the bible says they should be killed. He later gives the platitudes of loving the sinner, but when asked a direct question on how to deal with gays, he says, "kill, kill, kill."

He also propogates every offensive myth about gays - seduction, molestation, promiscuous, etc. He bases them on "evidence" that is never producted. That is bigotry.

I'm not denying there are good arguments for why the bible condemns homosexuality (if you actually read my links, you'll see plenty of arguments both ways), but the cite you picked is from a bigot, plain and simple.

If you read my links, they discuss those versus and why they don't necessarily condemn gays and/or why they aren't important in the bible. I'm willing to say that the bible is a book of interpretation and that many people read it without finding homosexuality wrong (while others do). Acting like it is a settled issue without reading the other side just doesn't make sense to me.

:eek:

Oh yeah - here is another site that is pretty comprehensive in favor of the gay christian position:

hxxp://www.lionking.org/~kovu/bible/toc.html

:D

As I have said before, quoting the Bible on subjects such as homosexuality is very iffy. There is very solid evidence and many religous scholars agree that portions of the Bible were rewritten after originally put to paper. Who is to say that a person translating the Bible who was very homophobic didn't just rewrite portions of it.

The simplest response to this is this:

Christians believe in the diefication of christ through the crucifiction, that in its most basic form defines a christian.

There are untold numbers of versions of the bible, every sect of christianity uses its own preference for its services. The BIBLE does not make you christian. The bible used by your denomination simply gives you the reference works to build sermons on.

Christ and belief in him makes you christian, and you had better learn to accept that gays and lesbians have every right to believe in it just like you or any other christian does.

Sorry Matt, this didn't come across the way I was thinking it. Its supposed to read more along the line that the church says this is the only true way, and you actually believe it is the only true way, then perhaps your ignorant of the reality that is the fact that there is a true way for every single person and no-one can tell you what that is but you.

this sounds all nice n stuff. I apologize if I offended anyone with the previous.

Sorry. Fact is, the Bible states early and often that the physical world we see around us is less important and real than the spiritual one behind it. "God is spirit, and desires to be worshipped in spirit and in truth."

The Bible details who God is, and just as importantly what God's relationship is to be with us (of our own choice), and how we are to be obediant to God's plan. The Bible is under the guidance and witness of God's presence on earth today, His Holy Spirit. You can find certain factual errors in certain verses (devil's myth about the horns comes from the horn representing political power on earth.) But the overall thread of the Bible will always remain consistant and without error. (New International Version is actually a more accurate translation than the King James, from what I understand.)

Homosexuality is always pointed out in the Bible as a consequence of individuals or even nations turning their backs on God and the consequence of their sin. History shows us that when homosexuality becomes an accepted norm in society then that society is nearer its end than its beginning. "God is not mocked."

The Bible also shows those who care to learn from it that homosexuality is actually spiritual in nature, and it results from the presence and even pocession of a person by unclean spirits. These spirits, like all other anti-Judeo-Christian forces in the world since ancient times seeks to raise the physical over the spiritual. But as God clearly tells us "There is a way seems right unto a man, but the ways therein are the ways of death." God refers to not only physical death but spiritual death as well.

YES! We have a winner!

This is real convincing. I wonder why when people quote I Corinthians 6:9-10 to condemn homosexuality, they don't quote the rest of the verse. According to the King James Bible, that passage reads:

"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolators, no adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inhereit the kingdom of god"

Okay, so let's go with your argument -- homosexuals are ineligible. But, let's also not forget that anyone who has committed fornication (consensual sex between a man and woman who are not married) or is covetous (one who desires the material posessions of another), just to name two easy groups, is also ineligible. My guess is that makes 90% or more of Americans ineligible, probably including everybody who as posted in this thread (have you ever fornicated or coveted? See you in hell).

Leviticus is another one. People reach way back to Leviticus to pull out verses to condemn homosexuals but never mention all the other wacky things found in Leviticus. Some of these things were pointed out in a clever "letter" ot Dr. Laura Schlessinger back when she used Leviticus to condemn homosexuals a few years ago:

"Dear Dr Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you however, regarding some of the specific laws and how best to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:&. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15: 19 - 24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev 25: 44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

f) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

g) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev19:27. How should they die?

h) I know from Lev. 11:6 - 8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves.

i) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24: 10 - 16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? Lev 20:14.

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan..... "

Yabanci,

That is a beautiful, brilliant post.