Oh please, that was a totally kick ass episode!

The dream sequence of Tony's Hell was very well done. Even when he's not in the mob he can't get a break. Lot of symbolism all over the place, from drinking in the bar with a bunch of people he wacked, to all sorts of religious symbols.

And some great performances from Carmela and Meadow. AJ looks like he'll be backing into the business. He's got nothing from school and he's going to wack Uncle June.

Very solid episode. Next week looks like some fun with who's in charge.

Well I didnt like the episode a bit but I totally agree with this part ;)

LOL!!

I totally missed that the people in the bar were people he had whacked...who was it?

Overall I thought the episode was good as far as laying down the groundwork for the rest of the season and lining up the characters/conflicts. I didn't care for the dream sequences, never have, but after watching this show from the beginning, I'm certainly not going to give up now :)

count me as 1 of the people that liked it. I've learned Sopranos is a very long story, and this episode was telling part of the story. There doesnt have to be alot of action, or briliant dialogue to be good.

I hate Janice even more then ever. I thought Paulie was hilarious. Tony's hell was very well done imo.....I actually felt bad for him at the end, he just couldnt go home. AJ actually had to do some acting, and i thought he did it well. I've never seen that much emotion and fire from him before.

This was a good episode...kinda reminded me of "Defending Your Life" with Al Brooks.

There were so many elements to this episode and a lot of symbolism going round. Also, I don't think Tony is in hell, rather he is in limbo.

Heaven was the conference, but he didn't have the credentials to get in. When the elevator was out of service (check out the bear!) he "descends" down the steps, but stumbles and falls before he can go all the way "down" the red steps. Clearly, he isn't meant for hell yet either.

The doctor's prognosis that he has AZ isn't meant to be taken literally; it means he's losing himself (plus the real doctor states Tony may have brain damage).

Remember Tony can hear, his brain can listen to what is going outside...hence we hear at some point "Meadow" tell alter-Tony about "AJ"'s stomach virus (which real AJ was apparantly suffering from).

The last shot is just chilling with the Moby music...but I also liked the Joe Johnson musak ("Always something breaking us in two") which is about distance, things falling apart...to the cold Moby music as he looks out towards the light beacon from the airport.

Alter Tony is what he could have been, he works for Precision Optics (things that make you see clearly) but also as a weapons manufacterer. The one woman he almost sleeps with almost looks like his therapist...in the end though Alter Tony deals with all the problems in a calm manner, and Alter Tony doesn't get the girl at the end either...

I thought Vito was creepy when he was going to give AJ a ride home (in both the fact that I think he's one to flip to NY and not in touch with his lifestyle (as if he could be)...when he talks about Gene's suicide it was both funny and frightening in the way he was so detached speaking about it, -- that Gene could have been gay)) I was glad when the psychopath Paulie took AJ home...

I don't think AJ has the ability to whack Junior; in fact, AJ bottling up emotions is the weakest link amongst the Sopranos and ripe for exploitation. Meadow seems strong and lucid, she's definately the Michael Corleone to AJ's Fredo...Carmella was someone you could have sympathy for.

Next week with be a bang...

I now feel I do not pay enough attention to any TV show I watch. :eek:

I concur with this assessment. The episode was meant to set the table for the final run of the series. There were a lot of subtle things crammed into this episode, it'll take a couple to three viewings to catch it all. Even from the first episdoe of this season, I didn't catch that Uncle Junior shouted "cazzata Malanga" when he shot Tony. That's some true, old school, Italian cussing.

Nah, but you need to watch multiple times to really see everything. I really do like the Soprano's because they cram so much into one hour.

Also, I love how Paulie calls AJ "Van Helsing", what does AJ call Junior "The Mummy"...Not truly connected, but one could see a parallel.

Also, during the start of the premiere you have the weird poem being read, and one of the elements is the Ba. Well this episode, one of the doctors is Dr. Ba.

Also Kevin Finnerty seems to be a play on words...Kev Infinnerty or Infinity...at least that's what some webboards are saying...but I like how Kevin Finnerty shows up...Tony is indeed inert right now...lost.

That was something from William S. Burroughs, a truly strange dude. One of my roommates in college would play his spoken word stuff over and over.

I agree with the symbolism and explanations that you offered QwikShot, but stick to my own assessment that this episode was dreadful. Perhaps deeply symbolic and even cleverly so, but still dreadful.

Well, as a guy who doesn't pay attention enough I guess...I did enjoy the episode some.

And yes I felt that A.J. was on his way into the family business with this episode, or maybe I am just letting my hopes get the best of me.

Dreadful how though, not enough action, poor acting, poor writing?

I think this was the Emmy episode for Carmella. This is all setup, I think next week the bickering is going to be even more intense.

I like how Finn (Meadow's beau) was surrounded by a sea of teeth (dental school)...without Tony, he's fair game to Vito. Vito is trying to be a major player, and that he's cousins to NYC Phil...well, the waters are chummed. Especially since he's coming back to see Meadow after being out in the MidWest.

I'm betting next week we lose someone big.

Great catch! Forgot that he didn't get all the way down the red steps, but I wonder what the bar is supposed to represent. It was interesting that on the TV Casta Mesa (also the name of the bar) was shown to be engulfed by wildfires (indicating Hell).

From what I gather from other boards...Costa Mesa is between San Diego and LA. It's pretty much a weigh station. Having only been to LAX, I can't vouch...but once again, it's a place in between (I won't speculate on LA or San Diego being heaven and hell).

The fires obviously infer hell. There is much speculation as to whether the airport beacon is heaven...I'm thinking it's the way home (from which Tony can't get to just yet).

The conference was Heaven, and he couldn't get it, in fact, he needed to leave the hotel (which oddly enough looked like the same place he woke up in).

I like this episode because the symbolism isn't so over the top like the prior episodes, and not as creepy (any one recall when Tony is in the dream, knocking to get in the old house, and Livia or something like her is coming down the steps). One had a sense that this was about helplessness...just like when at the end, not long before looking longingly out the window at the beacon (home), he puts down the receiver of the phone, he cannot connect with his family (I really had a sense that he was contemplating jumping out the window - like Gene taking the "easy way out").

Remember, for Tony, family is the biggest thing in life...he is on the other side of the coast, without an identity, and can only be with his family via telephone (his wife is just as unsympathetic as Carmella) -- the line about this being his fault because he works too much -- is gotta be an inference that he's with the mob...and just like telling Gene that he couldn't go to Florida (making Silvio tell Gene), Tony was saying the same thing to himself...he won't break free.

Ultimately, Tony isn't dead yet, but by the time he wakes, he may just wish he was.

And perhaps, one can argue that that is Tony's Hell. He's used to getting what he wants, but he can't do anything as Alter-Tony. He can't tell anyone what to do or have people respect him. He's all alone and stuck in a situation he can't get out of.

Though it was amusing when the bartender said that Costa Mesa was "dead". Heh.

Likewise. I can appreciate all of that stuff, it just doesn't sit right with me. That's not what I expect out of The Sopranos, anyways. It's almost as if the writers are tired of writing The Sopranos and want to be creative - and this is how they're doing it.

yeah, like with Xena: Warrior Princess. i didn't watch the show all that much, but every now and then (towards the end of its run) they'd have some zany episodes. i'm talking straigth up zany. got the impression the writers were bored of doing the show and would use those outrageous episodes as a way to stretch their creative legs out.

Agreed completely. I thought the symbolism was pretty obvious, but I also felt like we were wasting a lot of time.

::shrug::

There are people who like that sort of stuff... like on another forum I'm on (SDMB), where the guys who thought it was boring are a very small minority.

First episode I've seen in probably 4 seasons. I guess that keeps the story line moving, didnt really interest me all that much. I guess it will set up someone getting whacked down the line.

I think it's less the writers getting bored and more them taking the opportunity after the long break to reassert characters - some in different ways.

I personally never cared for the dream related sequences - especially the first time they did it (before this season)... but tonight's episode wasn't too bad as you can see the story developing instead of just sitting there til next week.

Guess he was in purgatory after all... though I guess I figured that out with the beacon in the previous episodes part. Great part where Buscemi was grabbing onto the briefcase, while Tony was grabbing it back.

Paulie annoying Tony in the dream was great as well :).

Paulie and Vito are total weasels, btw. Vito looking sad when Tony was ok. I think it'll get 'em in the end, especially if Carm tells Tony how Paulie and Vito looked downtrodden in the elevator.

Looks like Sil isn't cut out for the big man job if Tony get wacked somewhere down the line.

glad to see Tony will be speaking again next episode. those hospital scenes were just boring. the emerging storyline with Paulie and his tension within the family next episode looks pretty good.

Great episode.

Dreadful episode.

Why..??? I feel it's going to start to get good and last night was just a taste of what's to come.

I prefer watching "good" episodes rather than "oh, I see ... this might lead to future episodes actually being good." Personal preference. I do see how this iss etting up, and it's fine... I just thought the last two espisodes were a generally inefficient and self-indulgent way to get us there, especially considering the show only has a pretty finite number of episodes remaining.

Here's the thing:

I hated the episode initially but like Lester Bangs with "Exile on Mainstreet", I today, liked it.

I missed the first part with Paulie, but my assumption is that Vito just didn't give him bad advice, he did it on purpose to potentially get Paulie killed. Typical setup to remove problems, and Vito wants to remove those potential allies to Tony. --we'll get back to Vito vs Paulie in a sec.

Purgatory, whatever...Altertony was going for the light. I liked how he met with the monks ("Caucasians all look alike" BWAH). They wanted someone to take responsibility...it seems alterTony doesn't want to take responsibility. Slowly alterTony was beginning to believe he was someone else (Kevin Finnerty). The ever present briefcase...I loved Paulie's talk annoying him, making him angry) I loved how while talking on the phone he asks about the beacon, but doesn't get an answer (least not one which we can hear).

Getting to the house...shivers...remind anyone of "the shining"...the outward facade (just like when Melfi and Carmella were talking one on one about facades) belied something far more sinister. Cousin Tony as the gatekeeper whom alterTony did not recongnize (and was listed in the cast as "man" not Cousin Tony) And the quick shot of Livia turning into the house (Tony Soprano's mom is far sinister in death) definately told me that was bad juju...Meadow pulling Tony back ("Am I dead?") was heartwrenching.

The side stories weren't that interesting...Silvio knows his place and was a fish out of water as "boss", Vito is just plain creepy (RUN FINN RUN!) and munching on carrots when he realizes that Tony is awakening. Chris movie idea is bordering on whacking...you don't talk about the family, and his ultimatum to Tony is bad bad bad. A.J. is a moron (shades of godfather going on here).

But more interesting is Vito vs Paulie...here are two guys that are just as greedy and conniving. Vito is definately behind the scenes; while Paulie is brash and in your face. Both hated parting with the money to Carmella for their own selfish reasons, and when Carmella sees their real faces after giving money (the facade dropping down), she realizes how ruthless the family is. Vito wants power, Paulie wants money; their fear of reprisals was what caused them to give up their cuts. Chris is obsessed with movies to the point of blackmailing his boss (probably off the wagon). Only Silvio seemed genuinely upset for Tony (and the only one who seemed to be appealing for calm, which in the den of socio and psychopaths, just isn't going to work...even Phil L who wants revenge understood the reasoning to giving Carm a cut but was so obsessed about revenge that he and Vito "forgot what they were talking about"). Bobby seems to be running ragged thanks to Janice (blocking the ambulance and yelling at Silvio who is being carted away is not normal thinking).

I agree with Quiksand though, this should be the tip of the roller coaster before the drop now, we've had enough side story...time for action.

Still I liked this episode.

Self-indulgent is a good way to describe the last 2 episodes. The writers' heads have swollen a bit over the last 2 years.

This week was not quite as tedious as the week before, but I would definitely say both episodes represent the low point of the series. I hope that they can resolve the series without delving too much into religion, but it looks like that is the way things are headed.

I wonder how much we will be hearing Tony whine about his dream to Dr Melfi over the next couple episodes?

Why is it that every dream sequence ends with someone saying "the writers' heads have swollen", not just this season, but every freaking time there is one? I mean, I really do like these dream sequences. I realize that people just want to see killing and blood, but I enjoy learning about Tony's inner motivations and I found the last two episodes riviting. They were chock full of symbolism and very interesting to piece apart.

Haha no doubt!

I like the show and I have liked dream sequences in the past, but this last dream just kept going on. I felt like the writers were having too much fun trying to be clever while dragging out a dream that should have taken half the time.

I just watched it tonight...and I remain in the QuikSand camp basically. It was better than the prior episode, but it was esentially a two-parter. The one thing I did kind of enjoy was how Tony was not Tony in the dream at all. No accent, more articulate, etc. Some pretty nice acting touches that could be totally overlooked.

But anyway, I can't help but fell they are ultimately just wasting time when we're now down to 9 more episodes in this season and just 15 overall.

I thought it was the worst episode they have ever made.

I liked all of the symbolism (and "cleverness"). One of the reasons for dragging it out as well, of course, was to see how everyone reacts to it. Tony's internal struggle may indeed end up being significant. He was right there in purgatory, given the choice to give in, join his cousin and mom, and he didn't want to let go of the briefcase. Brilliant scene there.

One of the reasons I like the Sopranos is that it isn't just action, action, action. It goes deeper. It looks at the family, it looks at the inner motivations of the characters. It makes it the best drama on TV today.

Though, I must say it is very interesting to see how two seperate forums can have totally different views of the same episodes (another forum I post on had a vast majority of people saying they liked the last two episodes).

Great episode tonight IMO.

I'll respectfully and completely disagree. Give me the episodes of the last 2 weeks over one like this anyday.

meh.

Significant plot line progressions actually happened tonight. I cant take dream sequences for the better part of episodes, let alone back to back espisodes.

Did I miss a significant progression besides the Barone deal?

The first half hour was just painful. What the hell was with the rapper? Was that Massive Genius' protege?

**spoilers**












An improvement over the initial two episodes. Carmella warning Tony to watch out for Vito was interesting. The stuff with Paulie and his mom also. The part where Bobby shoots the rapper (Snake from OZ) in the ass was pretty damn funny.

Vast improvement over the last two episodes IMO.

The warning about Vito.

and

Paulie's story, with the ending where he is laying it to the kid for $4000 a week and telling him not to tell Tony.

Both those are going somewhere.

I also wonder if Bobby has the balls to press the rapper for more money if he somehow has a big album by the end of the season. (I doubt it, but it would be funny to me)

The guess here is that getting shot in the ass will hurt the rapper's career, not help it. He might want a refund or perhaps some payback on Bobby.

I think it might mean nothing. I thought it was just being Bobby getting creative because Tony gave him the speech about the brother in law angle wearing thin.

While I didn't care much for the dream episodes, I didn't think this was much better. I found it slow and mostly uninteresting. There were a couple minor plots that moved along, but I thought overall it was a pretty mediocre episode.

I thought 6.4 was a little slow, but it was a step forward (to me) over the extended dream sequences (a.k.a. symbol-a-thon) of the previous two. I'm not all that captivated by the various plotlines that seem to be developing from all this, and so far I still question whether we needed all the extended sideshow to get us to an epiphany for Tony, or whatever all this is leading toward. Have hopes that we'll be back to business next week.

I think it's more likely we never hear anything from this storyline again.

the episode was a good one in that it had some awesome one liners from paulie (had me laughing a few times).. I'll be jotting those down come the encore presentation...