Ahhhh, a Star Wars thread. How fun.

Yes, and as I said, I believe the IMDB score is a better metric than the Rotten Tomatoes user score. I won't change that argument if the IMDB score continues to fall. You seem to be tying what you or I think about the movie to what metric we should think is accurate.

You kinda did by trying to counter the RT audience score (which I used as an example of divided reception to the film) with the Cinemascore and IMDB score. Even said it was was weird that it was so different and then indicated that general audiences may be more positive than Star Wars die hards and that explains the RT audience score.

No internet poll has any reliability.

Cinemascore is the a market research firm that polls people at the box office, has been around for 30 years, and is utilized by people in the business and people who report on the business. The A-F scores reported there trend higher than the equivalent ratings or ratings from critics you'd see on internet sites, because I think those who enjoy picking apart movies and explaining their flaws are over-represented on the internet - the average moviegoer is much more forgiving and much happier to go the movies and be entertained in a simpler way (though Suburbicon still got a D-.) And of course, unlike critics (and some Star Wars fans), these numbers are going to be skewed by the fact that most people are only going to go to movies they expect to like in the first place. Star Wars got an A over the weekend.

https://www.cinemascore.com/

Yes, and I pointed out earlier that Phantom Menace got an A- Cinemascore ;).

No, you keep trying to tie my argument to my opinion of the movie. I've made data arguments as to why I think there's a difference in the scores. You have yet to respond to those arguments and keep coming back to my opinion of the movie and/or my opinion of people who dislike the movie.

If I'm wrong, why do you think the scores are different? Even with the falling IMDB score, its 7.9 is still way higher than the equivalent 6.6 from Rotten Tomatoes.


Yes, all three prequels got an A-. Rogue One, Force Awakens, and The Last Jedi all got an A. Eternal Sunshine has a B-. Drive (my favorite movie of 2011) got a C-. Boogie Nights got a C. I think these are good indicators of the general audience reaction to the films when they came out. They are entirely unrelated to my opinion of the films. That seems to be a foreign concept to you.

oh boy...a pissing contest about how people are demanding how good everyone else thinks the movie should be

Roger Ebert gave Revenge of the Coughing Robot three and a half stars :)

:funkychickendance:

It's exactly the opposite . I pointed out the RT audience score as an example of the mixed opinions for TLJ and you countered with Cinemascore and IMDB score. What was the point of countering the RT score? If it wasn't that you were trying to say that there aren't mixed opinions on TLJ or that only a small minority thinks TLJ wasn't good then it makes no sense to trash the RT score and say well the Cinemascore and IMDB scores are much higher.


They are calculated differently, but if you compare the IMDB score to other Star Wars IMDB scores, it is lower than the entirely of the original trilogy, and TFA. I think it is evidence that this film has more divided opinions than other SW films.

Let's not pretend that the opinion over Force Awakens wasn't hugely divided. Remember this thread? I remember a similar reaction on reddit and similar places. People have different ideas about what they want or expect from Stars Wars.

Star Wars: Episode VII - Front Office Football Central

I'm sure I'll love Episode IX, like I loved 7 and 8, and that people who want different things and who picked apart Episodes 7 and 8 will hate 9 and will express that hate loudly. (This is especially predictable with JJ Abrams back in the fold). Has there every been a blockbuster movie, especially a sequel that is part of an existing franchise where expectations and head cannon had time to develop, that had universal appeal in places were movies are discussed critically? I think that's part of the appeal of these kinds of movies, everybody has seen it, so everyone can have an opinion, and everybody can promote their idea about how they would have made the movie better. That's not my cup of tea, but there's more than one way to enjoy movies, and I've learned to filter my own experience and access to this stuff somewhat.

First of all, even if that was my argument, what does it have to do with my personal opinion of the movie? I could make the same argument if I hadn't even seen the movie or if I hated the movie. I hated the Blindside and it would be absurd for me to argue that audiences didn't love it.

I think the Rotten Tomatoes user score exaggerates the divisiveness of the film. I think Cinemascore and IMDB are better metrics. I think they do a better job of finding random samples or correcting for tainted samples. That's my argument. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on my criticism of the RT score, since IMDB still shows divisiveness (as you note below).


You're pretty much proving my point here, since I'm pointing to IMDB as a better metric, eventhough I disagree with its ranking of the SW Films.

I, for one, am happy JJ is doing the third one. I preferred Force Awakens.

I need to see Last Jedi again. A few days later, and I still feel disappointed with Luke's storyline. Would've preferred a grand showdown in Ep. IX with Luke and Rey vs. a more powerful Kylo Ren and his forces.

What do I care about your personal opinion of the movie?

Either my opinion of the movie or my opinion of people who disliked it. That's what I took from your "You kinda did" response above.

But either way, you seem oddly defensive about my criticism of the Rotten Tomatoes user score. I say oddly because you haven't even really defended the RT user score, instead just assuming I'm attacking it for reasons other than the ones I've explicitly stated and responding to that fictional argument.

I have already indicated why. Post #72 and I don't think your response in the subsequent post actually answered my concern. I could say you seem to be oddly attacking the RT user score, holding others are more indicative of the actual appeal (and insinuating the RT score had been hijacked) and then backtracking when one of those is also trending downward. Perhaps it does have something to do with your personal opinion of the film?

Post 72 isn't a defense of the RT user score, but an accusation that I'm claiming there aren't reasonable reasons to dislike the film, despite the fact that I already said there *were* reasonable reasons to dislike the film. And so I explained that even if I thought only 2, 10, 1000, or 1 million people disliked the film, it would have no bearing on whether I thought they had a reasonable reason to dislike it.


Except I have given you reasons why I think the other metrics are better indicators. Cinemascore is a random sample. IMDB has a weighted system to counteract tainted samples. You have not responded to either of those arguments.

Also, I have not backtracked once from saying IMDB is more accurate than RT. I'll still believe that no matter how low it goes on IMDB, as I said previously.

I remind you of your first post on the matter. It was nothing to do with whether RT user score was less accurate, but rather that it didn't match the far more positive Cinemascore and IMDB score (at the time):


You didn't even bring up hijacked RT scores until your 3rd post on the matter.

(and just quickly, IMDB tends to have a higher average rating for a film than RT user score: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ovies-ratings/ )

And on this post, I'll rest my point. If you want the last word, you can have it.

i was REALLY happy it wasn't jj for the second one. I think things are better when they hire other people

As someone who often goes to the ledge here and knows what it is like...

...back away from the ledge, guys. Swallow your respective prides and move on.

That's only due to Lucas and the prequels though. Other movie trilogies have worked really well with the same director - Lord of the Rings, Godfather (ok the 3rd one wasn't great), etc.

A shame, because I felt like we never really had the first word on the matter.

As a sidenote, I'm really blowing through some of these books that cover the events between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, and then between Return of Jedi and The Force Awakens. And I think these stories do work a lot better in book-form. I always found it interesting how exactly Palpatine's new Empire transitioned from its early days, where there was still a functioning Senate, and where Palpatine still kind of acted like a regular, if very conservative, leader of the executive branch, into the full dictatorship it turned into by Episode IV. Likewise, I was very interested to dig into how exactly the New Republic fucked shit up so badly after Return of the Jedi as to get themselves blown up just a few decades later.

Saw the movie Saturday, and I really enjoyed it. Then again, my opinion of The Force Awakens has changed a TON since stepping out of the theater, so time will tell how I feel about when all is said and done. I echo many of the thoughts in the thread already, but here's my list of notable things:

• The movie got progressively better as it went on. The first hour or so was pretty terrible, but the last half hour was fantastic.
• Really enjoyed the humor they injected in small bits (though the first bit with Poe and Hux went on too long). Particularly enjoyed the "I feel it!" part with Luke teasing Rey's hand with a blade of grass. There were moments where they went dangerously close to overdoing it, but I think they hit the sweet spot for me here.
• Thought the scene with Leia flying through space was absolutely atrocious, and nearly had me laughing out loud with incredulity during the film. Completely missed the mark with me, and ruined the moment. Would have been a perfect exit for Leia, in my mind.
• Thought there were some really, really nice callbacks during the movie, particularly:
  [**]Luke and Yoda in silhouette with the burning tree; Luke's long hair made him look from behind a TON like Anakin from the prequels.
  [**]Luke's farewell scene on the rock on the island. The two suns at was an excellent callback to our first look at Luke on Tatooine.
• The visual flair of the salt and the red on the mineral planet was excellent; in particular near the very end when Kylo and his force approach the now opened doors the practically gory red scars all over the ground made for an excellent visual and a nice theme of the violence that had just taken place, especially for a series that is very light on blood and gore.
• The Milennium Falcon flying through the tunnels on the mineral planet and getting Tie Fighters to blow up by crashing into things is tired and overused...but it's still Star Wars at its near best. Despite thinking during the scene how overused it is, I still enjoyed it.
• I am really enjoying the interplay between Hux and Kylo, but I am also very worried about a full movie with Kylo in charge.
• Although I REALLY enjoyed his death scene (the subtlety of Kylo beating Snoke at his own game with resolve and twisting both lightsabers simultaneously, allowing Snoke to read his mind while not knowing what he actually planned, was pretty great), Snoke seems like a completely wasted character. If there is no backstory in IX explaining him, I will be extremely frustrated. It's bad enough that 20-some-odd years after Return of the Jedi we are exactly back to square one with the First Order, but Snoke had to exist during the events of the original trilogy - who is he and how did he get there?

I probably have more to talk about, but for now that'll do.

Which books would you recommend?

Anyone else think Po is one of the weaker characters/actors in the movie?

I mean he's just so generic. SOOOO trying to be Han Solo. Kind of a Luke/Han cross. I always was reminded of Bill Pullman in Spaceballs which is a parody of Luke/Han.

So he was performing an imitation of parody of the originals.

Then pair him with purple haired annoying Laura Dern and you've got the worst scenes in the film.

are you kidding? the last movie will feature a Kylo/Rey wedding with extra jedi babies!

Agreed. I think it would have been better to have Leia die in the space scene (which would have been a beautiful goodbye I think), and have Poe try to take over in a coup. Would have set up some interesting questions as to how we see the rebels (Poe is a charismatic guy, but are we trading one military dictatorship for another if the rebels under Commander Poe win).

I half expected Lara Dern to be Poe's mother(who from Canon comics was a rebel pilot).

So I'm not the biggest Star Wars person past the old movies but I'll throw this out. It felt like the whole movie was a set up for "9".

I think the casino scene is setting up the final movie as the new Rebel force will probably come those kids in the stables with the final scene being the kid with the ring and them talking about the "legend" of Luke before being ushered out.

My best guess walking out was the next movie is 10-20 years in the future with the kid with the ring being the next "jedi" with the backstory becoming money versus the poor kids(the new Rebels) when they grow up. Luke ends up in blue the whole movie as a ghost to teach Rey and the future Jedi's. Shit, let's go full on and bring every jedi in blue including Vader to make Kilo see the way back to the good side for a happy ending that no one wants.

Yeah I have no idea how they won't time jump like 5+ years at least for chapter 9.

Maybe those kids will be the heart of episodes 10-12

Because every topic has one of these

Me personally, I thought it was a good movie, though the whole we have to go do something to achieve something else, trope is so fucking old at this point. I like the characters, I liked the stuff with Rey, Luke and Kylo. It was fine enough. People need to get over this Star Wars as being transcendent though. Last Hope and Empire were All-Time great movies. That level of storytelling/characters isn't coming back. There's no need to fight over it like it's a fucking third testament.

I don't think that exact kid at the end will be a character going forward, but that the point of that scene was to leave us with the sense that the battle ahead isn't just the entire First Order against the handful of people left in the resistance. But, instead, that the resistance is a bigger idea will always attract new people, and that it can't be snuffed out just by blowing up some space ships.

And I saw this posted around today, it was from Fantastic Films magazine in 1981, even by Empire Strikes Back there were already complaints that the movie "didn't feel like star wars."

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net...2d&oe=5ABBDAF6

Though at least that's actual film criticism, and not just the 2017 version of supplanting the movie's choices with your own and arguing yours are better. Which is really just fan faction.

We will never see those kids again

There's overly-nostalgic homage to the original trilogy which demands everything change and nothing change all at once; there are fanbois in any genre and anything popular. And then there's anything is ok. I'm in the middle. I'd like there to be more focus on storytelling and less on action. Failing that, just don't stomp all over established lore. There's a huge amount of room left within that box, really there is. Making Leia a character who was never trained in the force and then doing what they did with her not-death scene is the most obvious example, but I talked about some of the other stuff back with TFA. I was never looking for something that would be just as good as the originals(whatever that means); I just wanted something that didn't insult those who were fans of them. And after TFA, I knew I wasn't going to get it. The better parts of Last Jedi notwithstanding, it went even further in that direction.

laughable the about and severity of negative trolling about this movie. yes has faults but not terrible.

My biggest thing is that I think is that we've seen it all before. everything is very stock star wars scene at least a lot of bits

Almost a week later, and I still think highly of the movie. Yes, a lot of the hate is a bit silly. I am sure the people that gripe about the lack of depth of Snoke are big fans of Boba Fett who had even less depth in the movies (though he did look a lot more bad ass). It's not my favorite, but it's in my top 4 and I liked it better than Awakens. The self journeys of Rey and Kylo were interesting, even the one for Luke to some extent. The battle scenes were solid, and the ending was good. Yes, Leia's scene was a bit much. I'm not a fan of the Finn/Rose side story. Otherwise, I thought it set up a lot of intrigue for 9 well.

I liked Snoke, hated the name. It sounds like a sad elephant-nosed creature with a cold

I think the thing that bothered me the most about the new movies is that they leapt straight from destroying the Empire in Jedi to the First ORder.

Kinda making that celebration pointless

I liked the movie. In my opinion I would say the first one was better (I loved that one, liked this one), but still I'm not going to jump on the hate wagon.

What I found funny, and my wife was on the same page: Didn't the whole Rey-Kylo mind connection feel like two millennial talking on Skype? Especially the time it happened and she says "I don't want to deal with this right now" or however she said it. The whole thing makes me really think they end up making out before it is all over.

Hahahaha Skype!!!!!

So awesome

But no one uses Skype now.
It's all discord

And yeah... Jedi babies popping out soon

C'mon, they could see each other. They are obviously using Snapchat ;).

Molson I also would live to know which series of books you are referring g to as that does sound interesting . Could you share some info on which books or writers?

Some thoughts:

- I liked the movie a lot so let's get out of the way first
- the best parts of Star Wars for me are the battle scenes, especially the space battles and that definitely was fun for me
- the Poe growth was nice to watch albeit a little heavy-handed
- the battle scene in Snoke's throne room was hot
- the Yoda scene was really really nostalgic

Here are the nitpicks which make it feel like it missed the mark though:
- Leia in space was BS
- Snokes was a complete waste of time. Seriously, he couldn't sense Kylo's intentions?!?!? Some dark force master he is
- movie felt bloated
- the idea that the First Order fleet should just slowly chase the Republic's last 3 ships for hours.... that's the best they could come up with? If Laura Dern could do what she did, why not do the same thing with an imperial star destroyer? At minimum, why not hyperspace away and back to a closer range or something?
- the design of the republic bomber's seems kinda dumb

I think the biggest issue for me feels like Rian Johnson didn't want to be bogged down with continuity with Episode 7 and just killed off story ideas.

If you notice, Ren is doing the same thing to both light sabres so it's plausible that Snoke confuses the intent. It's actually quite a slick move by Kylo.

I continue to find it interesting the things people like and don't like. Palpatine wasn't exactly expecting Vader to turn on him at the end either, despite all his powers of foresight. Snoke's death scene is a definite strong point of the movie IMO. Agree that not nearly enough was done with the character, but I don't mind how he went out.

The movie was awful.

I could rehash all the plot holes that all the criticisms have pointed out. But here's one I haven't seen anywhere else.

They managed to put out the continuation of the story while Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were still capable and willing to be in the pictures. But they couldn't manage to put any of the two of them in the same scene? Oh wait, they did, but it was another one of Rian Johnson's asinine fake-outs. He, JJ Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy can go F themselves for that level of incompetence.

Lots of thoughts, but overall the recurring theme to me was 'pointless' and 'too long'.

I do sense a bit of a generation gap, and I don't think it's (all) to do with sentimentality. Think it's a change in storytelling in the culture. We oldbies are generally expecting a clash of good/evil, actual heroes & villains, and the modern delivery system is more about greys and subverting the tropes. I just know my completely informal polling of younger/older seems to be a clear divide as to whether they liked the movie or not.

If I'm ranking - and of course I am, because I'm a nerd - I'm thinking

5, 4
R1, 7, 6
3, 1, 8
~big gap~
2

Not true. Fisher and Ford were in scenes together. But yeah that is weird that there wasn't much/ Then again....the busy schedules of supercelebs...

You LIked Send In The Clones better than the original movie AND Empire Strikes back?!?!? You are point blank wrong.

Sorry, I was going with original releases. I can see where that may anger a lot of people. :D

So -

5, 4
R1, 7, 6
3, 1, 8
2

Corrected in original post.

holy shit, she DIED for chrissakes. Sorry they didn't have time for the masturbatory canon-worshiping scene all the fanboys were owed.

She died after filming. I think it's a valid criticism. If you're going to bring these characters back, at least have them interact with each other for what feels like more than throwaway scenes.

I've now seem the movie three times and I think it's biggest obstacle was all the positive hyped up reviews it had before hand. Compared to the reviews I was underwhelmed, but now viewing it a third time I think the movie was just fine.

I didn't like it at the time but Rey's parentage now makes sense. I really think Disney is trying to get away from the Skywalker bloodline in every story and this sets up different stories to go with (especially for Rian's next trilogy.)

I do wish we knew more about Snoke but I actually liked Kylo outsmarting him by performing the same acts with both lightsabers. And his room and guards were so cool.

I think the light speed into Snoke's ship is one of the all time coolest scenes I've seen in any movie. Just the cinematography and the way the audio was set up was so well done.

Anyone notice in the final Luke battle scenes, he never got any of the red salt on him and they even show a quick shot of him sliding his feet and nothing shows up? Something you may not have noticed the first viewing but notice when you already know he's a hologram.

Overall I'll give it a 7. Solid movie, just wish I didn't go in thinking it was going to be a 9/9.5.

I really like Claudia Gray's perspective of the Star Wars Universe of the eras I mentioned - post-Revenge of the Sith and slow rise of the empire before before the end of the Senate, and the first seeds of the rebellion (Leia, Princess of Alderaan), and post-Return of the Jedi and hints of trouble in the Republic and beginning of the First Order (Bloodline)

These are very simple reads, Harry-Potter-esque kind of young adult writing, which makes them very fast and fun to get through. And they actually have relevance in the Star Wars cannon, things move forward, characters you know die, they're not just side-adventures where everything ends up back where they started.

Lords of the Sith by Paul S. Kemp is fun too - Vader and the Emperor are the protagonists, and the book delves into that relationship and some of the inner workings of the Empire

I read Tarkin but didn't like it as much as the others. That one felt more like "A day in the life of Tarkin" and didn't really advance anything.

Right now I'm reading, From a Certain Point of View, a cannon short story compilation that answers some of those mysteries of the early movies (today we'd call them plot holes), like why exactly did that imperial officer not shoot at the escape pod just because no life forms were aboard?

Awesome thanks and Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays

ah! Machete order :D

I've read a few of the canon books already and find that most are filler (Catalyst / Battlefront / Lost Stars). And even worse, going back to periods that had been comprehensively covered already and retelling them (Tarkin / Lords of the Sith).

I am looking forward to reading some of the books where they are actually filling in the blanks and adding to the lore. Where did Snoke come from? I'd love to see Kylo Ren become the person that he is now. When did Han and Leia break up? Things like that would be interesting to me, and hopefully with this movie over, they will be cleared to go back and tell some of the stories.

My favorite part is when someone deletes the 'arguing back and forth' posts in this thread.

Wait, that's yet to happen...

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Just got back from 2nd viewing ! IN 3D!!!!

I usually don't give a wampaa's ass about 3D but it really was even more fun.
Everything in space is better in 3d

The parts I liked before I REALLY REALLY liked this time around. THe parts I didn't like before were even more grating this time. But overall I enjoyed it.

And seriously I have never seen an actor more outacted by their costume than Laura Dern in her swoopy back dress.

My second viewing was also yesterday, also in 3D. My favorite use of 3D since Avatar.

There is an audience pattern I see developing though....that scene near the end with the 10 seconds of silence after the light speed jump - both viewings those 10 seconds were filled with whispered inane commentary by people in the crowd. "Damn, how 'bout that!", etc. Are people whisper-muttering nonsense out loud throughout every movie and I've just never noticed due to the general lack of silence?

probably.

I saw the 11 o clock showing and was in a HUGE theatre with just 4 other people :) nice private screening. When the credits rolled I heard some of them making comments and also wondewred if they'd been doing so the whole time.

So:

Things that really bothered me after the 2nd viewing. Some of these I noted something odd about and figured I probably missed something.



1. How did Finn and ROse get away to go to the casino? Why weren't they blasted out of the sky? If they could just sneak away, why didn't everybody do this? And how far away was this bloody casino? was it right nearby? It couldn't have been. So how long did it take...

2. Others pointed out...now it bothers me...but I'm less bothered than others: Luke at the end is just a projection of Luke. So how did LUke kiss Leia on the forehead without her realizing? It's been pointed out that Leia should realize that's not really LUke because she also uses the force. Two possibilities of this...LUke is a much more expereienced Force user, a jedi even, capable of doing things Leia didn't realize he could do. Maybe even better than her abilities can pick up. Or maybe she DOES know it isn't really him...and she's okay with that. As that's the closest thing to really being there...she is just happy to be "in the moment"

3. I am NOT bothered by Leia in space at all. Leia can use the force. She used it. End of story. No we haven't seen Leia use the force much other than sensing things, but this is a life or death situation and jedi are pretty darn good with those. I would be and I don't even have the force. And levitation/flying seems pretty basic. It was one of LUke's first lessons to lift rocks and yodas...and he did a version of it at the Sarlacc pit in Return of the Jedi. So nothing Leia did was against canon. Really if she DIDN'T do anything I'd be more annoyed.


4. The room where Poe and ROse were about to be executed was FILLED with Stormtroopers. FILLED. And Phasma was RIGHT THERE! Why did ALL OF THEM die in a fire so intense that it completely disintegrated them (or blew them to space) and those two not get dinged with a scratch...and why is Phasma suddenly WAYWAYWAY across the room already ready with a battalion in perfect alignment. Why aren't they scattered to the wind running around chaotically trying not to die?


5. Meh. Kind of annoyed that Benecio del TOro's character was even in the movie.

6. Why is Vice Admiral HOldo there? How did she survive? I thought ALL the leaders were on that bridge. Did I miss something?

7. The writing or the first quarter of the movie was REALLY lame. THe gags and jokes were definitely not needed because they are not funny and it isn't necessary to be funny. Especially everything Poe says really.
And repeatedly calling him "flyboy"

8. Yes, getting all the bombers and most of your fighters destroyed to kill one ship is stupid. You'd think he'd realize that since he's such a good pilot.

9. Just what did they think they were trying to do by ramming speeders into the canon at the end? I still don't get that? How exactly was driving a vehicle into the front of a firey hot canon supposed to destroy it when it sure looked like they would be destroyed by the blast by it before they got there? I really don't understand this plan.

10. Laura Dern.

11. The resistance is now a very very small group of people. So why are they running around stunning and knocking each other out? From shooting Poe to tasering Finn....really the whole Rose running around stunvning people thing was silly. There could have been a much better way for them to do that scene without the slapstick and tasers. Save that for the honeymoon.

12. The whole black hole thing. Was the black hole actually on the island? Is it in her mind? I don't get that at all. Is she "traveling there by force?"

13. The Ice thing with the echoes of Rey. Yes all very matrixy but what's it supposed to be? Also the parents thing. I'm still not sure I understand it. She's trying to see her parents. Who they were. And she sees...herself. So she's her own grandma?

She was commanding another ship, I believe. She was shuttled on board the flagship after Leia was in a coma. The rest of your concerns I totally agree with.

okay then...so there are other leaders on other ships...so they couldn't get a better actor from ANY of the other ships? :)

HA! I generally like Laura Dern, but I do somewhat see your point - her skill set didn't really match the character that well.

(edit: someWHAT, not someONE, d'oh)

Lucas and Lucas world has always been about very STRONG choices for character and makeup design. So her hair looking like she colored it herself at a trailer park really really bothered me considering she's wearing the most fancy clothes on the ship. Seriously why isn't she in a uniform?

Oh yeah...killing Ackbar was stupid and I will never forgive them for that :(

That's a trend in returning/rebooted series is killing off minor character favorites for no reason. You'd think he'd have long been retired and marketting his "Squid-O's cereal" franchise. "Squid-O's! They're so tasty IT'S A TRAP!"

FWIW, the character existed in Star Wars cannon prior to this movie and it seems like the casting of Laura Dern made them change the character somewhat. In the books, she's kind of a spiritual, eccentric, happy, hippie goofball. So they kept the colored hair and non-conformist clothes, but gave it to the much more stern and serious Laura Dern who played it as a super-serious military officer.

Well THAT makes sense. And IS INDEED a very strong choice! I really wish that character had been an alien in superduper makeup. NOT CGI.

But even actually getting the dyejob right and making it solid bright purple would have been better...and maybe a more hippee hairstyle. And definitely not brown dress but something colorful


But happy hippee goofball being all condescending and hippee-in-charge would have been GREAT for those scenes. And they could have cast any number of people...Sarah Jessica Parker....Meg Tilly...Kathy Najimy...Lauren Graham...the list goes on...

They mention later in the movie that smaller ships weren't being tracked by the Empire.



I think the second one fits best, because she doesn't even try to stop him from what would be a suicide mission for even a super powerful Jedi if he really was there.


Yeah I never understood why people have a problem with her having the ability to do this. We don't even know that she never underwent any kind of Jedi training. That's just being assumed by everyone. Also, when I watched the second time, there is a quick shot of her preparing for that blast. (I do understand why people don't like the visual of her floating back, but that's a different complaint than the one I'm addressing here).



Yeah, this was always a weird part to me. It depends on how the collision affected the ship. Could have sent some of them into space, but also could've sent people flying/sliding into different directions. Finn was regaining consciousness when he sees them marching towards him, so they could've initially been scatttered and then regrouped by the time he woke up.



I liked him. He seems like a classic type of morally dubious Star Wars scoundrel. And I think he has the potential to pay off nicely in episode IX.



They mention she was being moved from her ship.


Disagree. I thought most of this was really funny.


Agreed that this was a dumb plan, just like the codemaster plan was dumb. The whole Star Wars saga is filled with really dumb military errors. I view this as a flaw for Poe (and others), not for the movie.


Dumb plan made out of desperation, and they realize it. They had no other choice but to wait for the Empire to slaughter them. If only Luke had arrived sooner.


Thought she was great.


Tasering Finn because he was trying to escape. The resistance being small is even more of a reason to stop deserters.



Good question. I assumed she physically went down there, but I have to check again when I see it a third time.


I think it was just refusing to give her what she desired most, so she would keep wanting it.

I just saw The Last Jedi for the first time. Though there are definitely some head-scratchers, overall I quite enjoyed it.

A bunch of thoughts:

- I think Snokes was pretty cool and really, what did we know about "The Emperor" before the prequels came out to fill in all that back story? Maybe there are some good Snokes stories to tell, but this trilogy isn't about him. He served the purpose of being the Sith Master that trains and then is killed by his apprentice, as is tradition. The way he manipulated Kylo by tearing him down at times and building him up at others was neat.

- Leia should have died in space. Yes, she has force powers, but that whole scene of floating in space was just dumb. Nothing she did after was necessary to the story. Would have been a nice exit as opposed to a scene up there with "Noooooooo!" or "I have the higher ground".

- I enjoyed most of the humour stuff, even the little bird things with Chewbacca. My kids got a huge kick out of those. I think we sometimes forget that these movies aren't just aimed at people born in the 70's.

- Pretty much all of the battle plans, by both sides, are laughably dumb. And I have lost all understanding of what these gigantic ships can and cannot sustain for damage or block with shields.

- Kylo and Rey are both great, and the scenes together (via Force-Skype or in-person) are awesome.

- Everything about the casino world scenes should have been cut, including the Benecio Del Toro character (that stutter was awful). If they need to keep the overall stupid plan to get Rose and Finn on the ship just make it so Rose can do the parts the "codemaster" knows. You can still have the part at the end with the kids acting out Rebel scenes and using the force if you want, it doesn't really need the 'backstory' of the casino/prison breakout.

- I also really enjoyed Hucks and all the scenes with him and Kylo.

- If Snokes was the one who created the Force-Skype connection for Kylo and Rey, why did they get one at the end after he was dead? Call history?

- Enjoyed Luke, and I'm sad to see him go. Was cool how they set him up to go out like Obi-Wan but then faked us with the hologram.

- The hologram explanation was also super awesome because for a minute there I was pretty annoyed that Luke somehow had become so powerful he could withstand the firepower of the entire First Order war fleet.

- Why doesn't the Laura Dern character just tell Poe her plan? Once he hears it later on he's like "that could work!". For all they tried to do to make that character out to be in the right (and a selfless hero), that's basically the worst leadership ever. What's the harm in telling people the plan? Why should he just have blind faith?

- Those red guys in Snokes' throne room were pretty awesome fighters. Six of them almost took out two overpowered Jedi/Sith's. What are those guys? I always thought they just had cool red uniforms. I want to know more.

- The whole Laura Dern character introduction is awful, and the hair/dress is so bizarre (was she at some strange Rebel ball?). As is the reason she needs to stay behind on the ship (couldn't a droid sit in the chair and wait to die?). Everything about that character was basically awful.

- Someone else mentioned it earlier but the visuals on the salt mining planet were gorgeous.

- Rey casually lifting like 50 boulders at once seemed unnecessary and felt like it sort of minimizes a lot of the cool stuff from the original trilogy (Vader tossing a box or two at Luke, Luke using all of his efforts to lift the x-wing). I think maybe I just feel like everything force-related has come too easy for Rey when compared to Luke or even Anakin, who were both generational talents before her.

- Phasma is/was so cool.

- Phasma was used very poorly in this movie.

- Part of me really wanted a good BB-8 vs. bad BB-8 fight (unless I missed it? My youngest son had to use the bathroom twice so I did miss a few minutes in spots).

- It's probably really good that there wasn't a good BB-8 vs. bad BB-8 fight.

Great Stuff Fidatelo! I predict all your feelings above will intensify after your second viewing :)

I do love phasma and her cape. Her death was cool but yeah...wanted her more in the story.

The red dudes, yeah that's something. One of those characters that always scared the crap out of me. Like huge red evil aliens or devils even. Them jumping around fighting actually made them less scary, less imposing. Same reaction to peaceful mystical yoda suddenly getting angry looks and jumping around with a light saber. I liked them as menacing giants. THey are much shorter now. But yeah...they ARE guards.

Snoke is cool for sure. Still laugh at the name (don't let him hear me)

Agree on the casino. Yeah maybe rose is the codebreaker and has a harder time of it. Cause Del Toro doing it was like "BING!...done".

oh yeah BB8 fight! That would have been cool. I did like everything he did. Altho plugging the "holes" of electricity was funny on first watch...second watch was like...HUH?

yeah Kylo and Rey are really really great

My favorite scene of the whole movie was when she blasters the wall and he 's like..."Luke..."

Luke comes out and says "What's the about?"

And we see the outside hole with the natives complaining about it. We see what we would see not what she sees. And we aren't quite sure which Luke sees. Luke later sees them touching hands. So that was wonderfully ambivalent. Did Luke see Kylo or not? I'm glad they did not actually admit either. Nice bit of intrigue.

My kids and I have talked a lot about this, but there really hasn't been the discussion here. I strongly believe that Rey should have joined with Kylo when she had the chance. You couldn't really say that she was joining the dark side or that he was turning. It really could have turned everything on it's side going into the last movie. Have I played too much KotOR, or did anyone else see this as a solid plot possibility? On the other hand, this is the second major tease of Kylo turning and the second time they've pulled it back deeper. It does leave some intrigue into where he's going, doubt about whether or not he can ever get back, and hope that he is still capable of being turned. So there's that.

I mean that's twice now Kylo wouldn't kill the person he was supposed to. I'm telling you...Force-wielding babies...

A new era of Space Druids

I did see that and made the comment to my brother and our kids on the drive home. I think it would have been a really interesting way to go. Maybe they could do a 'What If?' TV series (like the old Marvel comics) where they address those kinds of things, that could be kind of fun.

Yes, I agree. If they had joined, wouldnt they have brought the universe together? Would the rebellion end? I think so. Because there would have been strong leaders, and they were not on the dark side type leaders.

Not that simple really. The First Order would try to blast them to smithereens and the jedi /resistance would not want any part of it. Which actually would start a REALLY REALLY COOL conundrum for the third movie

Star Wars has always had a clear preference for democracy. Ending with a Ferdinand and Isabella pairing ruling with near absolute authority would be counter to the political philosophy of the other seven films.

That was my thinking as well CF. Would have completely turned the entire thing. Now you have 2 potential protagonist groups, against an antagonist, but also potentially against each other. Would have been a great lead up to the last movie.

Except they wouldn't be ruling. They would be attempting to bring order, but more than likely, without legitimacy. You've already got a strong leader opposing in the First Order, it's a natural foil for the whole thing. They'd probably be on the run immediately.

am not seeing the analogy. But by coincidence I saw both movies on the same day ;)

For those old enough to remember, was there a similar religious debate over Star Wars / Jedis when it first came out like there was the Harry Potter series

But they would be the heroes, and we'd be expecting them to win. Even if they were unsuccessful, the film would still be saying that being ruled by benevolent dictators is the "right" outcome.

Would it? Why couldn't the film(s) have them come to realise that it isn't the "right" outcome and they turn away from that path in the end? Or maybe one of them comes to this realization and they end up splitting and fighting again?

What, like Luke? ;)

And to me it seems like this might be a possible direction to take it too. You end up in that place, but not after some really incredible swings involving flirting with the line and the grey space. I mean, the whole scene where Luke is done with all of it. He has realized that it's not the best path, that it needs to end as it's been taught. They left a perfect opening and opportunity to change it and evolve it organically and they completely missed it or shit on it.

When did Luke rule the galaxy or attempt to rule the galaxy? The only thing Luke ruled was the Jedi school and that turned out to be a disaster.

Having a pairing that then splits off because a dictatorship is wrong would fit well within Star Wars. I just don't think the trilogy can end with a benevolent ruling couple. Star Wars has always promoted a more democratic ideal, even though the weaknesses have been recognized.

Well Luke beat the Empire for Leia to rule it appears, who was a literal Princess ;).

YEAH! Yoda came to the same conclusion. Burn all the old crap. It doesn't matter anymore. The answer isn't in the old ways.

But the government was a republic.

Possibly a constitutional monarchy, but regardless, some sort of representative organization.

No guarantee for it to continue as a Republic. Just as there would be no guarantee that Kylo Ren and Rey would have created a joint Monarchy or Dictatorship.

And as we know from the prequels, the Republic was a terrible bureaucratic mess.

Right, but all I'm arguing is that an ending with a ruler or rulers is contrary to the spirit of the rest of the films. Distributed power, even with all it's flaws, has been preferred over consolidated power. How you get to that ending is wide open and could include an intermediary step of flirting with absolute power, but an ending with benevolent rulers would be a big change to the political ethos of the series.

Exactly. I think they have room to return to this, the door is still open, but will they pursue it, or will it just be a rehash of the old ideas in the end?

Spirit of the prequels perhaps. There is no reason to think that it's some democratic governance that comes after Return of the Jedi.

(though, to be fair, the prequels even have an implicit argument against Republican form of government - the series kind of says Philosopher Kings would be best)

Why do the ideals of the prequels, or even the original trilogy, need to remain in place by the end of the new trilogy? Wasn't there a time when a great deal of people saw Communism as perhaps the best form of government? Ideologies shift over time based on the pros and cons exhibited through practical applications. I don't see anything wrong with Luke or anyone else from the Star Wars universe deciding that the idea of ruling an entire galaxy via a democracy or republic or whatever is not the only 'right' way of doing things. If anything all of the current characters have only ever seen those forms of government repeatedly fall prey to corruption, war, and tyranny.

Adam Driver is a very good, compelling actor - but the most unconvincing 'villain' I've ever seen. Totally lost any interest in Ren as a baddie the second he removed the helmet in TFA.

All in all, I hope part IX does its best to erase this one. Just felt like a lot of huge missteps. Pointless, at best.

oh I am POSITIVE they will do everything that has been done before yet again. So we're talking another space ambush fight and shooting some space laser down a space hole causing a michael bay space explosion