$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there.

This is the first link I found when googling:

Job Outlook for 2008 Graduates

assuming this chart is accurate, you're just way off base.

Or giving people crutches allows them to survive the experience and actually get a better job. One of the many things you're forgetting about is that when stuck in a cycle of min-wage jobs people never have time to A) be injuured or recover from an injury, B) get an education, C) look for a better job, D) do anything proactive about their health, their home or their family. People stuck in a cycle of multiple min-wage jobs aren't generally climbing up the ladder unless they get very lucky. They're reading water. Sometimes a boost up is what they need.

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

Its a family of 5 two kids still in school.

Bank Account long gone, several credit cards maxed and in default.

I also recieve 350 a month in food stamps now, lost on car in Feb so everyone has to share 1 car which is a major pain in the ass. I have had a couple of job offers but because of the distance or hours I couldnt do it with only 1 car.

Michigan is a mother to find a job right now, I am 46 and this is the first time in my life I couldnt find some kind of job in 1 or 2 days. I was at several job offers where I was sitting next to guys that use to make 20+ bucks an hour at FORDS or GM. Its crazy you go to places that expect several years of experiance but dont want to pay more than 8-9 bucks an hour.

So unless things change drasticly I have to look for a cheaper place to live or possibly sell car and get 2 junk cars but than you have repair expences.

That 30 Days episode is pretty good, the Nickel and Dimed book is even better for those interested in this topic. Frankly there's a lot that people don't think about, mostly having to do with the difficulty of getting jobs when you have nothing to start with. Most of us started off with a supportive family, perhaps some education, perhaps the right skin color and gender. That's a bigger help than we realize.

If you need a place to stay and don't have a job and are forced to start off staying in a motel until you can get a job and then try to work up a security deposit while you're paying to live in a hotel you quickly dig yourself a hole. If you have to spend the day in the emergency room getting help for an injury and get fired from a job, and then have a hospital bill as well as the need to quickly find another job, and you have no savings, surviving becomes harder. That's hard to see when you have a family you can crash with, or you're healthy from years of not having to do hard manual labor.

Basically I think your assumptions Rainmaker, were faulty to begin with. But if the real point of your thread is that you don't want AC Assistance on the federal dollar perhaps you should start that thread.

True Michigander speak.

Seriously, though, I hope things get better. A lot of my family in and around Detroit are in really bad shape. My uncle does auto design work and has been in and out of jobs for about 5 years. His own brother (my other uncle) had to lay him off before the company went under, and he's been getting hired and laid off every 6 months or so since then.

As someone who has a liberal arts degree (with honors), and as a sibling of someone with a liberal arts degree, and as someone who knows several other people with liberal arts degrees, I am willing to vouch for at least part of what molson is saying. Please do not assume that a college degree is a ticket to a sure $30k/year or even close to that. When you walk in with a communications degree, an English degree, or a history degree, it is hard as hell to convince a lot of companies to even take your work skills seriously, not to mention convincing them to pay you a decent wage if they do choose you.

It's no accident that it took me four years after graduation to start getting paid what many of you would consider reasonable for a college grad. That's just reality for a lot of people with liberal arts degrees. Hell, it may be reality for people with other degrees, too, but I can only speak for the experiences that I know very well.

Agreed with pumpy-

My wife has a history degree with an education minor and has had a hard time finding too much more than 20k/year jobs in our area. I mean, you can apply for everything, but if you're not getting the call backs it gets frustrating.

Not to mention that if you're making an ok, but not spectacular wage, it's not a good thing to be constantly looking or you could easily spook your current employer and be left with a worse job than you currently have.

I know my wife couldn't.

So the AVERAGE starting liberal arts graduate salary is $34,700, which I think supports what I'm saying. Average salaries are very misleading, because there's a lot of room up from the average, but very little room below the average to give you an accurate picture of what's going on. If you get a bunch of people in the low 20s, and then a smaller number in the 50s-60s or higher, you get an average like $34k. (I wasn't saying that most college graduates are in the 20s, but a lot are, especially those at the lower end of schools and accomplishments, though of course these days, people beyond that are affected as well)

Also, I didn't go further into the methodology of those numbers, but they usually only include those that are working full-time. Many recent college graduates are working PT type jobs, both because of the economy, and really to extend the college years a little by easing their way into the workplace. It also doesn't include those that aren't looking for a job, because they think living off the parents for a little longer is better than working for peanuts (or their spouse can support them)

Sorry to hear about the financial/job situation. :( One of my biggest fears is being out of a job for any period of time, especially now that I have actual bills and crap that HAVE to be paid. Good luck with future job hunts.

One the problems with degrees is that everyone has them. This is in addition it seems like you need one to even get positions that shouldn't require them (or didn't 10-20 years ago). Throw in the cost to get them, it's tough.

In general, your reasoning is correct. In regards to starting salaries, probably not so much.

I would say NOBODY with just a liberal arts degree and no experience gets more than 68k as a starting salary. Thus, there is just as much room above than below in this case.

It also is probably dragged down from what people really make by sales jobs. My brother's first job was selling insurance. His salary was $12,000 - but he made over 50k.

EDIT: My first point is backed up somewhat by simple googling. The average starting salary of all new grads in wades link was 46,000. The median was 43,000. This indicates a distribution that is only slightly shifted to the lower end - i.e. roughly equal numbers above and below the mean. It would seem to point to the median starting salary for liberal arts degrees at ~33,000.


Well, Wade's data based on actual salaries indicate that a college degree is worth more than ever - at least in terms of raw dollars.

As for what what undergrad psych and English majors make with mediocre grades from crappy schools - sure, they get the bottom of that distribution (someone has to be there you knw). Actually, right now, there is probably nothing for them out there. I would not want to be them right now at all. That's one thing these salaries don't take into account - those who don't get jobs. I never meant to argue that a liberal arts degree was an automatic ticket to a $30,000 job. I think its normally difficult to get a job with that and absolutely brutal this year, but that people who get salaried jobs with l.a. degrees do make quite a bit more than minimum wage.

:(

damn man. let us know if there's anything we can do. what's your field?

It can happen with family businesses and top graduates from elite schools who work in major metro areas. It doesn't take much to skew those numbers upwards.

Matches what I know about it anecdotally. Lots of file clerks with a degree to hang on their office wall (if they ever have an office wall to hang it on that is).

And to go along with my $10/hr fast food workers here, that's also what office clerical workers, AP/AR workers, accounting clerks, etc are getting paid too.

I agree on the first part that I know plenty of 4 year degreed secretaries, construction workers, etc. making $10/hour.


However what I think you may be overlooking is that while to someone making 100k/year there seems to be little difference between $10/hr ($21kannually) and min wage.


21k represents a 30+% pay raise from min wage.

Even if we accept molson's point of view on starting salaries, how is $10/hr plus benefits anywhere close to comparable to $7.50 without benefits? I am assumign a filing clerk gets benefits, but in dollars alone that is, by molson's numbers. That's 33% more than minimum wage. I don't really see how you can compare the two. That also likely guarantees a 40 work week's worth of pay, whereas many minimum wage jobs can not guarantee that.

Ya, there definitely is some difference (less so when you factor in the cost of college and spending 4 years out of the workforce), but I guess I was thinking about it in the context of wondering how much higher people think minimum wage needs to be to create a "livable" wage? Any meaningful increase would push it ever-closer to those low-level administrative jobs. Maybe then those salaries would need to go up to attract graduates (assuming someone with a degree is even desired for those kinds of jobs), but then what does that do to the unemployment numbers?

So I feel kind of like a dick (or Jon) for saying this, but if money is so tight that you can't afford to keep your auto insurance, don't you think it's time for the cable and internet to go? I would much rather deal with a lack of entertainment than get hit with a ticket for not having insurance...

You definitely weren't the only one thinking this. I don't want to do what RainMaker is doing, though, and act like it is easy to figure out unless you're in that situation. However, I think cable and interent would be the first to go if I found myself in that situation. Particularly because I have a laptop and can go somewhere with free wifi if necessary. There's also the library. I don't know -- if I have a family of 5 and I'm struggling to get by, things that prevent catastrophic costs are more important to me than entertainment. But you know your finances and willingness to take risks better than we do.

Is it that easy to go without car insurance? Here, every year we have to pay for registration and must show proof of insurance. Are people faking it, or do most states not require that?

It's required in Texas. Hell, Dallas now has a system where they can run a cars plates and find out if it's insured or not...

The biug red flag I see is not just the lack of auto insurance, but that he also has a car payment. You are taking a big risk, because if the lender finds out, they will come and take your car.

All states require some minimum liability insurance. You can risk yourself and your property by going without collision and comprehensive (though as larrymcg321 pointed out, your leaseholder probably requires it), but you can't put others at risk of your driving mistakes.

You cannot mail in your registration? Or do it over the web? Most states you do.

Most places you have to show proof of insurance to register, but not to renew. Most places also do two year registrations now, so you could make one monthly insurance payment, get proof, and then drive uninsured for the next 23 months, or until you get stopped for something.

The insurance company will notify your state agency when they cancel your insurance, but that's just an entry in a computer database, they don't send cops out to apprehend uninsured motorists.

Even at the end of your 23 month registration, you could just not renew (since in most places driving un unregistered vehicle is less serious than uninsured). You'd still have tags, and be very unlikely to be caught, unless there was a spot check, or you got stopped for some other reason.

I got into an accident when I was 16 and my insurance had lapsed. It's not a good idea. I got off easy because the court never found out, but it's a BAD idea. At least in Virginia there can be heavy penalties for driving uninsured (I'm pretty sure there are in every state, really). Virginia requires you to at least pay the state $400 to make sure the other person isn't screwed when you hit them.

Not all states.


In SC you can pay a 1 time $500 fee and choose to be uninsured. But you agree to be personally liable for any damages.

I believe (but could be mistaken) that that is minimal liability, though, because it gives some protection to the person you hit. I could be wrong, though. In VA it's called an "uninsured motorist" fee.

No you can pay the state $500 1 time and never carry even liability insurance again on any vehicle you own. The fee is a documentation fee for them to keep track of your ass anytime you buy a vehicle....

With regards to the whole "person making minimum wage vs. college grad making $10/hour" thing, here's how I see it: The attainable standard of living is damn near the same for both people. Nobody is living a lot better on $21k/year than they are on $15k/year, particularly if you're trying to support more than one person on that income. Be it $21k or $15k, you're still just scraping by. I think it is certainly fair to say that minimum wage is "not much less" than some liberal arts grads are making because there's not much difference in what they're able to do with their money.

To make up an example (and I am just making this up - I am not saying that anyone here has said this - are you listening, internet?):

Sure, it might be easy for someone who makes $75k to say "Well, if I had an extra $6k/year, I could take a vacation or buy a new computer. You can do a lot with $6k extra." What's that $6k mean to someone making minimum wage? Maybe they can afford a little more variety in their dinners. Maybe they can afford to keep up with the maintenance on their car a little more properly (assuming they have a car). Just maybe they're getting a cell phone or basic cable. That additional money is not going to any grand luxuries, though. So my stance is that the person making $10.00/hour is not doing a whole lot better than the person making minimum wage, regardless of how big of a percentage difference there is in salary.

Now, yes, it is somewhat likely that the person making minimum wage is not getting 40 hours per week, but I'm trying to stick at least somewhat to the original topic here. To do that, I'm going to work within the constraints of the post that started this thread, in which it was stated that you're working 40 hours per week with medical benefits through your job. So, given the stated constraints, I just think there ain't much difference between minimum wage and $10/hour.

1997. I can assure you it wasn't much then either. I had a beat up car that was paid for, our rent on the top half of a falling down house was $400 per month. We did not have air conditioning, we did not have cable... heck, we didn't even have a frame for our first bed. It sucked. It also motivated me to work my &*$#ing ass off, and now twelve years later I'd consider us to be upper middle class. Minimum wage isn't an economic death sentence, as long as you avoid too many stupid mistakes and are willing to work long and hard to get out of a minimum wage job.

For comparison purposes, illiterate ditch diggers (Senior Utility Workers, officially, but that's what they do) average around 27k.

And I know they are illiterate because a small part of my job is to train them to use the computer so they can record their hours in the new time and attendance system I'm helping to install. There's one guy in each crew who signs everyone in to class and then I log every one on ("Oh, you forgot your password? Let me help." wink wink.)

Obviously they aren't going to it, but we need to go through the motions.

6.65 in 1997 converts to 8.89 in 2008. That's a pretty significant difference, I think.

And one medical emergency completely fucks all of that up. And all of the hard work might not do you much good if the company decides to lay off/close stores/etc. Then you're fucked because you have no savings.

As far the car insurance thing goes, I know some people that have welfare benefits at least here in hawaii, the government will take care of your car insurance too if you are low income. So maybe he was saying he just didn't pay insurance, but still has it.

Yes, this debate doesn't need to be polar. Of course plenty of people work their way up from crappy jobs and crappy lives to climb up the economic ladder. And yes, hard work and determination is important. That doesn't have to mean that we assume the only difference between people who do that and people who don't is how hard they work. Not everybody's in the same situation or has the same luck or chances, even if they're both working low-paying jobs. As I've stated above a lot depends on where you start, for one, and what sort of external support you have. A lot of people can't even dream of paying security deposit on even a crappy place to live. That's a hard hole to climb out of, and just one of many that a person can find themselves in.

Minimum wage

+



=

Semi-survival.

Not everyone has the same abilities or intelligence either. Some people work their butts off, but aren't capable of moving up like others. I do believe if you work hard you should be able earn a livable wage.

What would you consider a livable wage in the U.S. right now?

Ya, ideally, there could be a "minimum working hard wage", but that's not really possible.

The people with better abilities and intelligence should be better off. I think it's problematic when they drift too low towards the bottom and are just combined in this giant blob of lower-level workers.

Exactly. There are jobs that I'd be able to get that others couldn't, jobs they could get that I can't. I might be able to understand the job and move up in management, someone else may not have the abilities to do that.

Also, the OP allowed the person to live anywhere, but in reality most people are constrained by where they live, most cannot afford to move or don't wish to. And that can put someone in a hole depending on where they are.

I used to live in Vermont, which has a very active livable wage campaign. The legislature had a detailed analysis done to determine a livable wage for people in different situations:

2008 Livable Wage Figures

Purely anecdotal, and only semi-related, but the more a job has paid me, generally the easier the work, and the less of it I am expected to produce.

Yeah, I'd say I work about 1/5th as hard as the average minimum wage worker.

Only semi-related again, but this topic and some of the responses remind me of people (stupid friends, of which I have many) who insist that panhandlers are calculating scam artists, making $200 an hour, and living it up when out-of-sight.

Regardless of if that dude makes $5000 dollars an hour, he is still a fucking bum, who spends twelve hours a day standing on an overpass with a cardboard sign, begging people for money, and/or rooting through people's trash for bottle returns. He likely sleeps under a bridge, spends all of his time with other depressed, homeless and/or mentally ill people, and drinks himself to sleep at night on crappy fortified apple wine. He's not really 'pulling a fast one' on you, and even if he somehow manages to magically panhandle for 10 times your income, the salient point should still be that he is a bum, his life sucks, and you would never ever change places with him.

I feel much the same about minimum wage workers. They're getting paid for work done, and I don't think we even have the right to talk about "the ones who work hard" because there are plenty of people who work just-hard-enough in every sector or class, and so long as your working hard enough to keep your job, that's really all that should be expected of you (from me and joe public, at least, your employer may not agree), regardless of your wage. If some dude is mailing it in every single soul-sucking shift he has at McDonalds, doing just barely enough to keep his job, and then he takes every bit of his disposable income and dumps it entirely into luxury items, more power to him. Sounds like half the people I know, except for the wage. Now, I will agree that those are some very low standards, and perhaps now is the time for America to tighten-her-belt/pick-herself-up-by-her-bootstraps/your-grandfathers-favorite-cliche-goes-here, but there's no good reason that burden should start (and apparently end) with the folks making the LEAST amount of money.

I believe the documented cases of successful scam artists tend to go back to an apartment as nice or nicer than the suckers who gave them money.


Right up until he looks to take cash from other people at gunpoint, i.e. via the government. At that point, fuck him & the horse he rode in on. Matter of fact, in that case, skullfuck his corpse too.

That's an extremely complex event where little accurate data exists. The 739 number was just the number of deaths above the average. It includes people who died of heat stroke who were both inside and outside. Unfortunately heat will always kill people whether it's in their home or at a high school football practice. Unfortunately in Chicago, we don't have the experience that many down South have with this kind of heat. Just as an inch of snow down South can set off Armagedeon.

The deaths were primarily elderly who I have no problem with helping get A/C. But the issue wasn't necessarily lack of A/C, it was the fact that many in crime ridden areas were too afraid to leave their windows open at night. An A/C would have helped in that position, but so would having less crime in their neighborhoods.

Since that time the city has implemented cooling centers throughout the city as well as services that will pick up and check on elderly people and get them to a cooling center. We aren't setup like 1995 anymore.

We differ on what a necessity is. I certainly would agree that for the elderly and some others with disabilities or conditions, A/C is a necessity. But I don't think the average person "needs" A/C to survive. I lived many years in my life without air conditioning and while it can suck, I learned to adapt and get by. I'd imagine many of your parents and grandparents lived without it for good portions of their lives.

You have to add in other factors though. The minimum wage worker is getting Earned Income Credit (especially if they have a kid). They are not paying any income taxes at all as opposed to the guy making $30k. The minimum wage person also potentially qualifies for food stamps and other government assistance programs. At the end of the day, it may look a lot closer than it is.

Well, I'd guess in those cases, the apartment would be nicer, and their friends would then be other scam artists and/or scammees. But their job still consists of begging for money in public for hours a day. I suppose the life of a scam artist pretending to be a bum might be better than that of a bum, but it would be a matter of degrees, and I certainly don't expect those people are anywhere near healthy and happy either. Even with the promise of a six figure income and a nice apartment, I don't think anybody (happy and healthy) would gladly take on either role.


Agree with you there, but I think minimum wage on it's own is still a separate issue.....assistance, on the other hand, is hard to separate from minimum wage. It's like Dr. Seuss'es Star Bellied Sneeches. Just about everybody on assistance is making minimum wage (assuming they're working at all), but that doesn't mean that the majority of minimum wage workers are on assistance (admittedly, I have no idea what those numbers are).

so 3 pages in we've all pretty much rebuffed your initial question RainMaker, and yet you're still at it hmm?

Isn't that a tad racist though? That because we are American we can't possibly put ourselves down to the level of a Central American in this country? We can't car pool to work, have multiple roommates, or grow our own vegetables in our backyard?

I'm much more worried myself about all the rich fucks who work less than the working poor, yet make much, much more off of the government.


As was said before, I think most of the poor who have minimum wage jobs are trying at least as hard as the rest of us. We're not talking about "welfare mothers" here, we're talking about people with a job trying to make ends meet. I'd rather throw them a bone than the bums on teh plush.

I was able to live on less than minimum wage for a few years. I honestly feel I could do it again if I had to. Some roommates in a shitty place, public transportation, no luxuries, and a budgeted diet.

My experience has been to the contrary, YMMV of course.

Some are, without a doubt, several specific examples come to my mind right off the bat. But I don't agree with "most", not even close.

I don't think that's so much racist (as the phrase simply seemed to be a convenient shorthand most everybody would understand with no malice intended) as realist.

What that descriptive phrase brings to mind is a significant increase in both violent crime & the suicide rate in the U.S. if you applied it broadly. I already have to ask myself whether it's worth continuing to breath every day under better circumstances than that, I don't know if I'd like to see the answer to the question otherwise.

Nothing to do with Mexican immigrants. Typically if you are working a minimum wage job, you are probably unskilled. I'm not talking about someone working minimum wage to get by temporarily if they are out of work or in a career change. I'm talking about people who can only find those kind of jobs.

Back in the late 1980s, I worked a series of factory jobs to help pay for college.

About 3/4 of the other workers were central Americans, probably illegals. They showed up on time, every day--the least hard-working of them were rock-solid responsible, and the most motivated worked like lunatics.

I found that the older whites and blacks worked hard, too--the younger ones, though, not so much, and a lot of it had to do with alcohol and drugs.

As they say, YMMV--it was just a couple of factories, and my hometown certainly had problems with MS-13 and other gangs, but I never thought about immigration in the same way again.

My apologies if some people find this racist, but I don't think any part of America should be using any part of Central America's living standards as a goal. Yes, we are supposed to be above that level of living as a country, and even if we're not, we should certainly be aiming beyond that level, rather than setting our goals at our neighbor's lowest common denominator, and below our current standard of living. As a country, personally I think one of our ultimate goals should be to enable/promote the best standard of living for as many of our residents as possible.

Yeah, my experience has been that people who aren't hard workers and going to be stuck working mulitple minimum wage jobs -- they just won't work. Why bother when ther'es welfare for family or friends. If someone is actually supporting themselves and/or a family and working for near nothing I've found it's because they're trying to get somewhere.

That would be your first thought the cable/internet goes but first its all one package Cable/internet/phone. Since most job applications are done online plus working on resume and sending it email to people . than the phone incase SOMEONE calls you for a job.

Hell I jump every time the phone rings but its usally a bill collector.

Than with 4 kids if I had no internet/cable we would have to play board games all day and if you have kids from age 13 to 21 you know what would happen they drive you nuts...LOL

No "welfare" does not pay for car insurance or car payment for that matter, they gave me some food stamps but are reluctant to help with anything else because their is income comming in. I would have to get an eviction notice before they would step in and help.

I went 4 months with no insurance but recently got your basic coverage since kids are driving the car, of course the bank is bitching I dont have FULL COVERAGE on the car now.

Realy this situation has allowed my kids to HELP and its probibly the best way for them to learn what it takes to support yourself, its kind of cool to see one of them with the little extra money they have left over buy their sibling a birthday gift without anyone asking them, not many kids now a days would do that.

If they learn anything thru all of this is that FAMILY takes care of each other first and screw everyone else.

very true.

I'm not alluding to how they live down there. No one wants clay huts and dirty water. I'm talking about how they live in the U.S. They are fiscally responsible, stretch their dollar as far as it goes, and work their asses off.

i can show you a guy right now in Charlotte, NC that drives a 5 series BMW, parks in a wal mart parking lot....walks a scant .25 miles and begs all day. We often mee up in this same parking lot and I buy some of my guys breakfast at an IHOP, we have watched him daily, every time we are there. Gets out in jeans and a t shirt, adds some top rags and grabs his sign out of his trunk...



I pulled up to him one day on the exit ramp he hangs out on, and rolled the window down, held a $100 out and said if you empty your pockets for me its yours....he pulled out a few dollars and some crackers and a prayer book someone handed him. I asked for the "bimmer keys" he smiled and said, "get on outta here its bad for business"



Of course not all are this way but I know one that is.

Which is why you should verify they pass the smell test before giving out any money

that's crazy!

As I said to Jon, even these dudes, as the extreme exception to the thousands of panhandlers who genuinely are sleeping under bridges, are still spending every day all day begging on a street corner, and a life and relationships built around spending all day begging on a street corner, pretending to be a bum. He sounds like king of the panhadlers, and I may envy the dude's car, or his other possessions, but I still don't want any piece of his life.

total side story to the main thread, but when I was at Georgia Tech I would pass 2-5 people begging for money on the way to the train station every day. For awhile I gave some change away on occasion but quickly became jaded with that whole idea. The Varsity was on one side of the street and there was a BP station on the other. If I had the time and cash on hand I would turn down the request for money but offer to buy a snack/small meal instead. One of the beggars took me up on it and we went into the Varsity and I got him a burger and fries. All others turned me down, "I don't need food man, I need money"

(Atlantans insert jokes about Varsity food here)

Yep. There are no guarantees in life, and sometimes really shitty things happen to really good people. My mom grew up dirt-ass poor (didn't even live in a house with running water until after she graduated high school), eventually raised three kids with my father in a nice middle-class lifestyle, did even better after they divorced, only to lose it all when I was 18. For the last 15 years of her life she lived in a series of smaller and smaller apartments, went from a Cadillac to a entry-level Saturn, and eventually declared bankruptcy a week before she died of pancreatic cancer.

That's life, unfortunately.

Is there a public library near you? They surely have computers where you can work on your resume, e-mail it off, and fill out applications. And they carry these things called books, which are great for kids. And of course they also have videos and DVDs, though not usually of the latest releases.

And while the internet/cable/phone are bundled, surely you can break the bundle and save at least a little money. Maybe even ditch the phone as well and get a cheap cell? I dunno. Like was said before, you surely know what's best for your family and I'm an outsider looking in. I'm sorry that you and your family are in the situation that you're in...

Thinking about this, it ties back into the "does your job define you thread". Most get up, go work 7-12 hours/day then come home to your life. Seems to me in a lot of ways we sell our bodies and our time in exchange for life goodies and toys. I can almost imagine this dude laughing over a cold beer with his friends talking about a tough day at the office...And these guys sit on exit ramps and hold a sign, a far cry from laying on a sidewalk and even interacting with your contributors.

My wife is in the same boat as well. She's very good at her job as an editor but it's a skill just not that highly valued money-wise.


If I'm looking at the wording there, that survey doesn't read as they are trying to portray. It claims that's the starting salary companies claim to give to people who have bachelor's degrees. But that could be a starting salary they hand to someone who has 10 years of experience who also has a bachelor's degree.

However, it's not the average starting salary for people coming out of college, walking right into a job. And it sure as hell doesn't measure the legions of college grads that I know who are excitedly plying their trade at places like Panera and Target because no one else is hiring.

I know I've never personally made $50K a year with my computer science degree. If I had moved out to the west coast, I probably could have gotten that but I would have had crushing bills to offset the increase in pay and never would have paid off my student loans as I'm about to.

When I got out of college, I bounced around for about a year and a half before getting a job even remotely related to my field and I have one of the "high demand" degrees.

SI

I barely made $10/hr after I graduated from Clemson with a history degree. When I quit work to stay at home with my kids and go back to school, I made $12.75/hr.

No offense, but I find it shocking that at, I'm guessing, 5+ years out of college and a CS degree, you haven't made 50k+. Keep in mind I know the market you live in - I find that completely shocking.

I'm not quite sure how not knowing how to use a computer makes someone illiterate. Are they unable to read the words on the screen?


So, I want ot tread likely here, as with the response regarding BigDawg's situation, particularly because I like you a lot and hope to hit up a Nats' game with you :), but I'm with Wade a little bit here. I have been very fortunate in my life and have made some risky decisions that have, thus far, been beneficial. Having said that, my first full time programming job I had two years of college and no experience (outside of an internship) and I was offered $50k (I took $45k + stock options). Here I am 10 years later and I have never had a job under $50k and I never got a degree. I have surpassed that number by quite a bit, I am living in my second house (condo) in a major city in a good neighborhood. I didn't have to move to the west coast and I am not underneath a cloud of debt (the only debt I have is my mortgage).

FWIW, if you just go up 95 a bit you would live in one of the best cities for tech jobs. The 10 Best Cities to Find Tech Jobs - PC World

I don't mean to either brag or put you down, but I wonder if a relocation would help in anyway -- certainly you have to check cost of living and whether you would be happy in another area, but never making over $50k seems very low to me.

You seem to keep missing the point. When you add in ROOM MATES you are no longer living on YOUR minimum wage RM. You're undercutting the cost of living entirely by doing so.

Surviving on min wage means using anything and everything to make ends meet, so you could survive that way, sure.

Living is not surviving, living is having your own life on your own terms in your own place without having to rely on room mates or parents or anyone else to pay the excess in your bills.

You cannot LIVE on Min wage in this country.

No one requires you to live on your own in your own place. If you are making minimum wage in this country, you shouldn't be living by yourself. I still think you can "live" and have a couple roommates.

Your definition of "living" would seem to preclude government assistance as well. Or is it fine for the taxpayers to chip in and help you live your life on your terms, as long as you're not relying on roommates or parents?

I can't agree with you on that one, RendeR. Living with others and splitting costs is a compeltely acceptable way to live on minimum wage. I need to do some research (which probably wont' happen) on the different tax brackets before addressing a lot of what RM has to say, though.

I kinda wondered about that too....I mean once you log the guy in, he's still illiterate, I'd think his password would be just the first of many stumbling blocks. But maybe they're just logging in to play a Blues Clues game, or watch Baby Genius videos.

I saw an interesting article in our local paper today about health care statistics. It made me think of this thread. It stated that in my state the average person pays over $15K a year for their health plan, which it stated was about equivalent to a year's salary on minimum wage.

I think health care is the biggest problem in this issue. When you're young, single and willing to go without it, things get a lot easier.

In a state that allows it, you could be domestic partners and cut down on a bunch of your expenses and taxes ;)

Bad comedy movies have been made about less (or even about this)

SI

On the screen, on the paper we sent them with their login info. They didn't bother to keep the manual, either. They can't locate their names on an alphabetical list, so they can't 'make their mark' on the sign up sheets.

Basically they sat quietly for the presentation, obviously not paying any attention to our talk at all. I'd been tipped off ahead of time not to expect much and not to try to engage anyone not paying attention or following along as it would embarrass them.

Got it. That wasn't clear to me based on the story -- I wasn't sure where the connection was.

AC is definitely not a necessity. You guys have a warped view of what need really is. If hot temperatures kill you, they kill you like anything else. Try living in Iraq without AC and I guarantee you it's hotter than anything in the states.

and how many 75+ year olds live in Iraq without AC?


Oh right, we are only talking about young extremely fit people, not everyone fits that category

How did humanity even survive before air conditioning?

I don't even remember anyone having it when I was growing up, and that wasn't all that long ago.

AC may not be a "necessity", but it is ridiculously judgmental to criticize someone for having it, no matter how little they make. It is certainly not a frivolous expense, especially in the south.

Yeah...and if they don't have AC and they live in the south...better not do something crazy like venture into the world of wearing dress clothes for a profession. You'll be soaked with sweat before you even leave your house (even if you did just take a cold shower).

It might be a regional thing though...I grew up in Florida and there is no way you are going to survive without AC. I have never known anybody who did NOT have AC when growing up, and I grew up lower middle class (or "working poor" is probably what its called today).

I'm living in the north now, and while I really really really prefer to have ac...I could likely do without if it wasn't affordable. Heat on the other hand...not so much.

There are a ton of things that humanity survived with at one point that we wouldn't subject anyone to today.

Yes, this is the sort of hidden thing that makes it even harder for poor people to work their way up. It's harder to get a good job when you already look poor.

I wonder if there's any other "necessities" I should know about.

I never knew I grew up so poor.

To me it comes down to a sense of entitlement about a certain kind of lifestyle that our society can't currently maintain for everyone. We're eventually going to have to accept a lower standard of living in this country.

I don't think it's an "entitlement" issue as much as...our society/culture doesn't allow for "stinky & dirty" professionals any more (and reference stinky & dirty standards to 60-70 years ago...not what we consider it to be today). At least not in the general sense.

You (figuratively you) wouldn't shop at a grocery store where the manager, cashier, etc. walks by and smells profoundly bad...or the waiter/waitress serving your food looks/smells like he just got his shirt out of a salt-filled washing machine. It's just unacceptable these days. So expecting a minimum wage person to not have these things (again...I'll speak for living in the south and namely Florida) and ever progress beyond that is like a one-legged man in an asskicking contest.

This (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view) is what our society has become. Similar to the "too big to fail" syndrome...we have created (seemingly) unsustainable standards that likely need to be adapted. Unfortunately...who's going to be the first one to voluntarily shut off the AC? Or who will be the first 4-person family to volunteer to leave their >1600 sq ft home for a more sustainable 1000 sq ft condo?

I agree overall lifestyle standards are unsustainable in this country...but I think AC/Heat is likely one of (if not THE) last thing we should expect people to drop or accpet reduced standard of.

I don't have AC and I most certainly can afford it. But shit, I'm plenty comfortable in humid 90 degree heat. I've got fucking fans for god's sake.

Farmers don't count...you'll be here long after the nuclear winter that all of us society-folk cause. :)

I'm still astonished that there's criticism of people who spend on AC as if it is some frivolous expense for a luxurious lifestyle.

I mean, I get it that people didn't have it in the past, and yeah I know many of you walked up the hill in the snow to school (BOTH WAYS!), and at different times in this country things like electricity and plumbing were not considered necessities, but I always thought it was a good thing that standards of living increased in this country. I consider that progress. Going backwards would seem to be an epic failure.

Shit like penicillin. You might not need it now, but when you do, you do. Plenty of people 'get by' without penicillin everyday, and humanity 'got by' just fine without, 'cuz those that didn't weren't part of humanity anymore. Nobody 'needs' air conditioning when they're growing up, nor do they need phone assistance, nor food stamps...but that's because you're growing up. When you're 80 and on your death bed, you might actually decide you do 'need' A/C, whereas some dude 200 years ago didn't have that option, but he was probably dead long before 80, because he couldn't get any penicillin.

Are you my Dad?

I'm perfectly fine when it gets 90 here too. Again, we don't need to polarize everything. People who live in Maine don't really *need* AC, yet plenty use it because it makes them comfortable. Yet there are places where it's more akin to our heat, which certainly is a necessity that the government pays for when people can't afford it. I also imagine that there are places where a lot of people live now that were left pretty much barren before AC, just like there are places now that only exist because we pipe water there.

I'm much more bothered by middle class people using up all of our resources in order to maintain their comfort than I am some poor people in Phoenix who want to stop sweating. I mean is our problem really poor people getting some sort of AC credit? If the American lifestyle is a problem it's because of the mass of rich and middle class people who are enjoying the most luxurious standard of living in human history, not because some poor people want a piece of it. Let's start by having the people who can afford it make some sacrifices for the good of all.

Standards of living can increase without the increased standards becoming necessities. I find it odd that you consider something that most of the world's inhabitants don't have to be a necessity for humans to survive.

I don't think I'm criticizing. I'm just saying that you don't need it in your lifestyle. If I was living on minimum wage, A/C would be real low on my priority list. The issue is whether it's a necessity or a luxury. I personally don't believe it's a necessity for most people.