You know, it's funny, but I guess it all depends on perspective. As a believer, I sometimes feel that the only religion one can make fun of is Christianity. I mean, it's poked fun of quite often (just see the pic of the tiny Jesus statue on the bookcase earlier in the thread). Did I scream vengeance and hellfire when I saw that? No. I didn't see anyone else, either. Go figure.

I'm always up for a discussion on God and faith. You can ridicule me until the cows come home - it certainly comes with the territory. I will tell you one thing - the answers I give you probably won't smack you upside the head and cause you to believe. Belief in God is based on faith and faith inherently can't be proven or disproven. So, while I probably won't be able to convince you in any kind of debate, my hope would be only to make you think and realize that maybe God's message is a worthy one.

I'll also caveat with - I'm no theologian or Biblical scholar (though I do read it) - and there are others on here that probably know a lot more about the details than I do.

Also, if others have problems with this on the board, you can certainly PM me and we can "talk" there.

Very true that it's not Jesus or God that I have a problem with. The definition of religion extends far beyond Christianity.


I agree that the actions of a minority shouldn't neccessarily reflect badly on the group as a whole, but that's certainly not my reason for not getting to know "Him" or somebody Else - whatever that even means.

I had the same feeling. I agree that the comment probably violated tenets of civility, which are grounds for penalty on this board. But, with that being said, incivility is only inconsistently punished. I would agree that he would be less likely to have been boxed if his comments were made in most any other thread.

+2

This has nothing to do with my affiliation, but I have always thought that somebody who is immature and trollish enough to simply call someone a "fucking moron" and then leave without any other comment deserves a boxing, and that includes anyone who is a known FOFCer. How is something that stupid and brutal not trollish and boxable?

Eh, anyway.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Christians make up the overwhelming majority of people in the U.S. prison system. You can look back to such times as the Inquisitions or Crusades. How people who dared to even question the Church were hung or burned. Red states, which have the highest concentration of evangelicals have higher crime per capita as well as teen pregnancies.

This isn't to say that other religions or non-religions don't have criminals and immoral people. In fact they have have quite a few. But what I'm saying is that I don't consider someone who is a Christian "morally" superior than someone who isn't. I also think morals are something personal. A Christian may believe it's immoral to masturbate. I for one think it's natural.

There's also a possibility that there is a giant flying turd in the Andromeda galaxy that is undetectable to our technology that secretly control the movements of everyone on this planet. You can't prove it's not there, so there is a possibility it exists. But that possibility is incredibly miniscule. I prefer to deal in facts. When there is evidence of a God, I'll be the first one to admit it's there.

I don't disagree with you, but the point stands that we've all seen it happen in many other threads without it leading to a boxing.

like tarcone, who gave birth to this bitchfest and hasn't commented since post #1, despite repeated requests to elaborate on his 'extreme whoring'. i'd be disappointed if he wasn't being literal and in fact did not participate in any extreme whoring in his life.

other working theory: (1) his wife caught him cheating (2) he makes post #1 (3) he makes sure his wife sees the post to get her off his back

Did you seriously just equate tarcone saying he was saved with SCwhatever calling him a fucking retard?

I would bet Jesus has Evasion. He wouldn't take any damage.

Christians definitely don't have it easy... ;)

Why is Pacman eating the Jews?

I always had my suspicions that Pacman was an anti-semite.

Okay. I think we're saying the same thing. Note that I said that Christians have a good OVERALL moral background. I'm sure you can point out the times that Christians have done wrong....however, I think that they've also done a lot of good in the world as well. The same cannot be said for the Tooth Fairy's worshippers who do things based on the Tooth Fairy's tenets.

Do you not recognize the difference? On the one hand you have people who have a set of beliefs that are ostensibly based on the Ten Commandments, which are a pretty good set of rules to follow. On the other hand, we don't know what the moral values of the Tooth Fairy or unicorns are. I was illustrating the difference when people congratulate someone for "finding God" versus (as you said) finding unicorns, the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus.

not particularly serious. :p

Ya, learn to take a joke there, jeez... I'm surprised anyone took that seriously.

For what it's worth, I take things like that both at face value and in context. In this case it was so utterly uncalled for and over the line that it was an instantaneous decision. Religion had less to do with it than someone intruding on a "happy" thread and attacking the poster for no apparent reason other than to be mean-spirited. Pure trolling. Case closed.

But what makes it a happy thread? If tarcone makes the exact same post, but instead commits his faith to the Tooth Fairy or the Washington Redskins or the leftover chocolate cake in his fridge, SCgoatman probably doesn't get boxed.

I believe your reason, WSU. But I think the thread seemed so "happy" because it was filled with (mostly) other Christians congratulating tarcone for his decision, a self-serving support if well-meant, and the point that was made that this would not happen in other contexts is correct. SCgoatman is in the box because he challenged the groupthink of Christianity in a vulgar manner.

What's wonderful about this thread is that if there is a God he can clearly delineate between the folks who seem to have a moral center and those he'd burn or turn to salt.

I'm undoubtedly in the salt category, but I understand the fretting. There was a time most of this thread wouldn't have been muttered in serious adult company.

It's hard enough to be happy. Tarcone, if believing in God gives you hope and strength, good wishes. Zeus knows the bitterest here would love to have that kind of certainty.

we all know there are different rules for different posters around here.

That being said I think Scgoatman should just be banned, he doesn't really add anything to the community

:+1:

He never used it, and have never asked him about it. He (being half latino) was afiliated with well know local latino gang and had planned on using it if the shit ever hit the fan with thier rivals. Hell, I wanna know now...I'll ask him next time our kids have a playdate. He's far less touchy about his past now.

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Christianity is a well-established, complex belief structure in a way that unicorns, fire breathing dragons, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are not. And I speak as someone who's not a big fan of organized religion in general.


A lobotomy is an extreme example, though. There are many ways for someone to find peace, and while I think we'd generally take issue with those that have clearly detrimental side effects (i.e. a lobotomy), I'm not convinced tarcone suddenly believing in Christ has a clear, demonstrable, and guaranteed downside. That's what makes it different. Perhaps an obvious negative example would be if he suddenly declared he was going to be a Scientologist.


I don't know. I think it's all about context. Usually around here we call each other fucking morons either a) in the midst of a long-standing debate that's gotten abrasive and where common principles are not shared (i.e. politics debates, but also plenty of sports ones) or b) as good-natured abuse. I don't think it's particularly common around here for someone to come completely out of left field and call someone else a fucking moron with absolutely no preamble.


Ah so.

Saw him on a plane the other day, or maybe it was Elvis...

Instead of the tooth fairy or something like that, what if he announced his conversion to Islam? Would that change reactions from some?

Of course, I think we've all accepted that. It is what it is.

That said, nothing wrong with calling the practice out, if we find issue with it...

I don't completely agree, I am fairly religious but I also frequently debate the merits of religion and things the bible says with others from a scientific standpoint. I guess my stance would be somewhere around middle ground, somewhat skeptical, but open minded in that I enjoy going to church and I always take something out if it. Faith to me is important, no matter how it is manifested, again as long as it does not hurt, or intrude on others.

In regards to your examples, if someone posted any of them it most likely would have been as some kind or parody and solicited a like reaction, which most likely would not have been anywhere as near mean spirited and if it was would likely have been in a TIC context.

Since religion is a lot more serious to some people than Chocolate Cake, the Redskins or the Tooth Fairy, a better comparison may have been if someone had posted about the joy they have found in being a new parent or getting engaged or seeing their child graduate from college. If someone had just come out of left field and called them a fucking retard with no provocation, then the exact same thing that happened to SCgoatman, would have and should have happened to them.

I was not offended at all he attacked religion, because I really don't care and have thick skin. I was offended he attacked someone who made life altering changes, was happy about it and just felt the desire to express that to a community he belongs and probably considers several others friends. There are also plenty of non-believers in the thread, who expressed their stance in an articulate, respectful manner and yet still wished Tarcone well. To me that they desereve respect for that, because they gave respect, even if they think religion is a joke.

All in all, it's just not a big deal however you find happiness as long as it is not harmful to those around you. Live and let live and if you can't be anything but intentionally over the top malicious then consider just moving along.

They were used in an off the cuff manner by people for amusements value imho - if you want more serious figures then consider failed (ie. out of use) religions, any from the medieval times would suffice to give you what was a well established, complex belief structure that is accepted today as no more 'real' than faries or Santa.

I've seen negative aspects to Christianity in some believers - normally this equates to them doing nothing to improve their situation because its 'Gods will' or equating everything bad to the work of the devil and everything good to 'God' rather than accepting that they have free will and can influence things themselves.

(please note these aren't criticism of Christianity itself (and indeed can be applied to all relgiions) - just comments on mankind when given a handy excuse to lean upon)

Since this thread, for the most part, has been positive and thoughtful, I thought this might be the place to ask a few questions that have been rolling around in my head recently....


I've always been curious about this sentiment. If a believer that believes (to some degree) in order to prevent and/or gain something (eternal reward) the same as a believer with no expectation (worthiness) of reward?

What other, if any, function does the Jesus story serve other than the way to decide ones eternal fate? If so, how important are the other functions compared to eternal fate? Are they dependent upon believing in eternal rewards?

Thanks.

As I understand it Christians are meant to fear God (as well as love him) and its seen as perfectly acceptable to become a Christian out of fear - indeed a lot of churches do big 'end-times' promotions for just this reason.

(similarly many are presently encouraging non-believers to God through fear of job loss etc.)

Its always been one of my big problems with 'organised religion' along with the rather obvious .... if the word of God is so inspiring why is church so bleeding boring (and yeah I've been to a big range of churches from traditional to happy clappy).

PS - But anyway congrats for being saved, I hope it brings you much success and happiness in life - I really don't want to turn this into a religious debate thread ... apologies for taking it off course.

I pray for everyone on this board to open a Biology book.

Thats not entirely a workable analogy though RM. Biology and Philoshophy have very little in common.

I think what cougar is trying to explain is that he was boxed for trolling, specific over the top trolling. It wasn't based on the thread topic at all.

Elvis isn't dead, he just went home.

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me if you'd like to" than one who says "Come with me or else".

Its one of the greatest fallacies of any "God's love" based faith.

Not sure I understand why.

According to the Bible, God gave the world to humanity. Humanity screwed up by sinning, and we are all born with it. Sin is an affront to God's perfection and is punishable by death. Even so, God loves us and sent his Son to die for us. Now, all we have to do is accept this through faith.

Sounds like He digs us a lot.

I wouldn't say God is trying to gain followers through fear. That's kind of what Marc said - though I'm sure there are probably churches out there that go about such things.

And, in a way, God IS saying, "Come with me if you'd like to." He's offering you the choice, and it sounds like you made it. I mean, if He really wanted to He could surely do much more than write a book and leave the choice in your hands, couldn't He?

In a series of books I've been reading (the Sookie Stackhouse Chronicles by Charlaine Harris) Elvis is actually a vampire, which she uses to explain the mysterious sightings. Great books BTW, much better than the Tru Blood adaptation on HBO.

No, what God is saying is, "Believe in this book, even though its contents go against nearly every widely regarded scientific fact known to man. If you don't believe it you will go to Hell."

Yes, if there were really a God, he could do a Hell of a lot better at letting us understand how this all fits together, but most of the Bible sounds a lot more like Apollo pulling the sun across the sky in his chariot than anything based in reality as we are able to perceive it using the senses "God" gave us.

There was an ironclad inevitability about the direction this thread turned. There are dozens of religious ideology threads floating around here. I suppose I am naive and idealistic, but can't one take five seconds to surmise the intent of this thread and either say "Cool, man, great for you" or just move on? The thread isn't called, "I've been saved, let's discuss your thoughts on God AGAIN."

The whole point is that Tarcone has made a profound change in his life. He feels his life is much better and he wanted to share that with the community.

If the thread was called "I gave up crack and got a full-time job" or "I feel great since I started studying Buddhism and running 5 miles a day" or "My life is terrific since I became a vegan and started receiving treatment for depressions" I'd like to think it would not invite the same flurry of scrutiny and dismissive responses.

Anyway . . . .

I also have trouble with a merciful god condemning folks to hell for eternity based on a very finite lifespan. Seems to me that mercy would be to let nonbelievers just die, rather than torturing them for all of time.

Saying "hell is a terrible alternative" was pretty much an invitation for people to debate the merits of religious belief. IMO.

I'd be curious to hear about the process from going from not being saved to being saved. When you hear people talk about out, they always talk as if a light switch got flipped and enlightenment happened. Is this really how it works? Does something just "click" and everything makes sense? Or is this a longer process of just deciding to believe and noticing later that life has gotten so much better?

I'm the type of person that is spiritual but not necessarily religious, and I'd love to hear how people made that change.

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.


That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

call him a fucking retard and lets see what happens.

Heh. Nah. I don't think he's a fucking retard. Just misguided and gullible.

:)

Why? It's all make-believe anyway, right? So, you infer you're going to a place that doesn't exist. What's the big deal?

Yes, actually... given that the original poster announced that a decent chunk of this board and a huge chunk of the world's population is going to hell, the fact that there has been only ONE extremely hostile comment in 145+ responses speaks extremely well for FOFC. If all that results is some religious debate, color me impressed. Try taking that sentiment elsewhere on the net and see what it gets you.

Power.

I'm just the opposite. I'd rather have a God who gains followers through terror and fear than peace and love; at least that's more believable.

What would be more realistic? A truly omnipotent being who needs followers to love him for some inexplicable reason or a truly omnipotent being who wants followers to fear him so he can rule over their lives?

I'm sorry - you'll have to help me out on this one - not sure I get what you're driving at.

Ok, is there some sort of mandatory black out period or something when someone has just been saved?

I sure would like to see tarcone at least make a comment or two regarding some of the questions he was asked. Otherwise, now it's just starting seem like a drive by prothlesizing.

Old Testament fan? :D

I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.

You have to understand where I'm coming from - God is THE supreme being who created everything.

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?

The Bible discusses a lot of Biology from the age of the Earth, to the Sun, to how long the planet took to be created.

Who created him?

The one thing I never understood about "being saved" was the idea that God cared. I mean he has this enormous Universe he created which we are hardly a speck of dust on. He spent billions of years just fucking around with sludge, then various life forms. Finally he creates apes for awhile, but got bored and decided that he would morph us into what we are today over the course of a few million years.

After all this, are we really to believe that he cares about the day to day happenings of individuals? Seems a tad narcissistic to believe that with all these things on his plate, he's concerned about whether you got laid or had a beer last night.

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

Some would argue we already do that ;).

I don't think he meant to be provocative. I think, in balance, his post is about his life taking a profound turn for the better. It's a joyful post, not a wrathful or condemning post.

When he typed "I hope you guys find Jesus," in my mind it had about as much malice as somebody saying, "I hope you guys listen to the new Los Campesinos album. It's amazing."

I suppose you could focus in on that one point, but I don't think that's REALLY his point.

/agreed :)

According to the Bible, 6000 years ago was when things began. For when it will end, there are a lot of different answers to that in the Bible. Guess you just have to pick whichever contradiction you think is best.

That's because most of us see time as a linear progression of cause and effect. Actually time is more like a big ball. A big ball of timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly...stuff.

Well, good thing we have had Einstein, Newton, Salk and a host of others that tried to answer those difficult questions.

Absolutely, and I think it would be cool if those questions are someday answered.

As you suggest, in the religious context, a non-Christian shouldn't care if a Christian tells him/her that they're going to hell, since according to that non-believer, hell shouldn't actually exist.

But, as mentioned in an earlier post, religion is also a manifestation of the worldly. In the case of the USA, Christianity is the dominant religion. Though the strict secular nature of the country's governance is generally accepted, the respect accorded to the secular state varies from region to region. There is a small but significant number of Christians who channel their beliefs/ideologies into political action in ways that seem threatening to the secular state. They have every right to be politically active, but that activity can be considered threatening by some secularists.

What Tarcone said was probably innocent, and I am glad that he's doing what he needs to do. But, in the context of the type of power-relations in some parts of the country where non-religious folks have traditionally and constantly had to accept what they have to accept from the majority (from the mundane "playing along to get along" situations like participating in grace before meals instead of raising a stink, to the more significant reintroduction of creationism of some form in science curricula to name a few examples), I also do understand why a non-believer can get upset at Tarcone's comments.

I can understand this, though it's certainly a two-way street. As a Christian I certainly feel threatened by the secularists and their political activity (and, just like Christians, they have every right to this activity).

I've noticed that a lot of the barbs directed at me are science related, and I have no problem with that. I believe there are a lot of things we just don't understand at this time.

Regarding schools, I have no problem with them offering a curriculum based on science as we know it. It's our best guess - so be it.

I agree with you--everyone has the right to leverage their political power, exercise their free speech, etc. I just wanted to point out how they may be perceived by those on the other size (and as you mention perception is a two-way street).

Firstly, I'm a non-christian. I don't believe that Christ is my savior, and the bible is nothing more than fiction/propaganda, IMO. I lean toward scientific theory to make sense of most of life's questions.

There are a lot of things that can be explained by scientic theory. But there a lot of things that cannot. Tarcone is being thrashed relentlessly for his beliefs in christian theories, but the thrashers are acting just as preachy as he was. His "hell" comment is subjective and wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Maybe he meant the hell that was his former life. He never said that we're all gonna burn. I've seen some of you folks trampling all over him and criticizing his new-found stength. It doesn't matter why, or how...the guy has turned his life around.

A lot of the scientific juggernauts have rather large holes in thier theories, as does the bible. Darwin's theories have been called into question lately, what with the weird bugs and their non Darwinistic form of evolution.

The truth is, that none of us will evr truely "know." We'll cling to beliefs and theories to try and make sense of it all, but "it all" is far too complex for our human minds to every fully comprehend. Cut the guy some slack and be happy that there's one less reprobate in the world. As I said, I don't think it matters why. He's changed and that's good.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.

When a christian tells someone that they are going to hell, what they are saying is this: "I am right, and you are wrong, and because of your shortcomings/ignorance you deserve to be punished for all of eternity."

It is a staggeringly opinionated, judgmental, and arrogant statement. To believe that their god - or Jesus - or whatever - is the only real god and all others are false, and whose followers will suffer? It is hypocrisy at its worst.

At the point tarcone said he wished everyone would believe exactly like him or suffer the alternative, he stopped being just happy for himself and instead judged all of us.

I'll stop here before I earn myself a vacation as well... :rant:

Another way of asking that question might be: Why do believers care about converting non-believers?

Granted a lot would say to share the love and joy they have. But the psychological aspect also cannot be ignored. Getting people to share your belief in the unbelievable makes it less unbelievable.

What if I live the same lifestyle as tarcone except i do not believe, I do not act out of a fear or love of the eternal. Would that life lead be considered any less spiritual or worthy of rewards? What if religion was just a means for something bigger, and now we have other means to achieve the same thing, without so much damage? Shouldn't we let go of religions?

What is threatening to you from secularists? It seems that the secularists want everyone to just do what they want and Christians want to control what other can do.

Ha ha, it seems that an atheist just got insulted by another atheist (okay, I'm really an agnostic, leaning towards atheism). ;)


I stand by my statement. If I don't believe in god, why should I care what Christians or anybody else says about god? But what does matter is how the dominant religion can impact my day to day life--sometimes it doesn't at all, sometimes it matters a great deal.

An additional edit to add: the differences in opinions we have probably stem from the differences between atheists and agnostics. I remember someone telling me some time ago that agnostics were the most arrogant of them all, since they are "too above it all to even bother defining their beliefs". I generally disagree with this, but I do understand the perception...

1. I never said that "because of your shortcomings or ignorance you deserve to be punished for all eternity." I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible says we all have shortcomings and the only way to get "right" with God is by faith in Jesus. Do I think you serve to be punished for all eternity? I can't make that judgment.

2. The height of arrogance: we all have our beliefs. To not believe is a belief as well.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes - I get Christian bonus bucks if I sign-up 5 FOFC members! Who wants a membership form?! :)

Pat Robertson is worth hundreds of millions. Lives on a mountain in a mansion with a private air strip. But he's really just in it for the salvation. :lol:

I saw the article you are referring to with the helmet fly's or whatever. This doesn't actually contradict the theory of evolution as much as it helps validate another theory(cant remember the name).

I will also say that its not very fair to compare a scientific theory supported by evidence and tested to a book that is essentially a hole with very few real world references that make people think its a textbook. The bible is nothing but stories that give promises of rainbows, puppies and sunshine. All vague promises. This morning I saw a billboard that said, "He is the Answer". What the hell does that mean? Its like a damn horoscope.

I'd laugh if in the end, we find out that Tarcone's post was just a troll attempt. Hey, watch what happens when I post that I've been saved.

If that happens, then Goat's comment will probably be shared by a few people.

I already addressed this earlier in the thread (I think, anyway). But, bear with me here - let's just say for a second that I'm right. So...in my heart I know the one way to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ, and Christ himself states that he's the only way. So, I believe in a heaven and a hell - and I have friends and family that I love dearly...wouldn't it behoove me to tell them about God/Jesus?

While it's hard to believe for the non-believer (hey, there MUST be some ulterior motive - money! power!), sometimes it's as simple as that.

Mind you, this is all with the caveat I spoke of earlier (probably on page 1 or 2) about man and humanity. Once you add man to the equation, there is the potential for all kind of garbage to occur. However, the message behind it still remains.

To put a more human front on things ... most Christians believe in a loving 'fatherly' God and ascribe fatherlike characteristics to him with us as his children.

The idea is that he welcomes us with open arms back into the church family, however it appears there is a point at which our hearts harden to him and he accepts that we will never accept him, effectively turning our backs on us forever.

This is what many churches believe is 'Hell' - that is dying without knowing God and thus being condemned to never know him, its not a fire and brimstone place - more a self chosen prison without your heavenly father.

(personally I have a hard time ascribing fatherly aspects to an omnipotent diety who has regularly done such things as 'wipe out nearly all life on the planet in a flood' as part of his ocassional daily routine ;) )

To not believe is to admit ignorance. Its not the same thing. Its not a belief. Religions use convenient answers. Why is the sky blue? God did it. Why did all those people die in the hurricane? God has a plan. Why can't I masturbate? Its selfish and sinful. Atheists and agnostics choose to just wait for the answers and realize that its OK to not know.

And your point is? We could also list CEOs from charities that siphon funds, or, heaven forbid, politicians that accept kickbacks. I already said that we're all human - we're all greedy, we're all selfish to a degree, we all have our faults. Pat Robertson's no better than me or you (and I'm sure a lot would say he's worse than us, but who are we to judge, right?).

I meant to add to that last post is basically there are 2 different kinds of people. Those that have have an answer and those that don't. Those that don't may or may not research them but they don't need some lame explanation to call it a day.

this is wrong.

To not believe is by definition, to question. it is not a belief in and of itself.

True and pure Atheism is indeed a belief, the belief that there is NO god or high power in the universe.

But simply not believing is ont a belief system, its a position floating amongst all the belief systems.

Yeah, I was talking more about leadership of the church.

My dad's church meets in homes. While I'm not a member and think they have a few kooky things, I always respect that they don't baptize until adulthood and don't beg for money every turn.

According to some late night cable TV I've seen while working there is one out there ..

Apparently he's the God of the bible but appears to be available only via. subscription and regular payments to specific ministries ;)

I'm begining to think that's what it is.

If so, then would Goat be unboxed????

Not true. Denying God exists based on observations isn't a belief. Atheism isn't a religion where people blindly accept no God exists. Just like Catholics and protestants are all Christians. Anyone who doesn't believe in a theistic God IS an atheist. The includes all you agnostics. Atheists is not a closed minded system. If God shows his face tomorrow I assure you I will no longer be an atheist.

That's not true. The average CEO for a non-profit makes $150k. They aren't living in huge mansions and flying private planes on to their property.

Robertson is a shitstain to the highest degree. Goes on TV begging people for cash to help the poor while he sits on a pile of dough. He pushes pseudo-science into the schools and discrimination in society.

I'd venture to say the average pastor doesn't make that much money either.

But really, I'm not defending him nor am I a fan of his.

One reason I don't believe in a 'personal' God rather than one who made us, gave us freewill and let us get on with things is simply the following -

Two sports teams, both full of christians who prayed for victory before the match - why does one team win, the other lose (similarly I remember reading reports on the shock of English troops during World War One when they realised that the German soldiers weren't baby eating humans but were also Christians who believed that God was on their side).

Only one set of prayers can be answered obviously and expecting both to be answered just isn't practical/possible - yet we have sportsmen and women frequently thanking God for their achievements ... yes we get it God created us all, but its your dedication and perseverance which gave you victory - promote that.

It should be a victory for mankind and used to inspire others to also try hard at what they do imho rather than just offer prayers up to God and expect him to do the hard work ...

If people didn't truly fall for the pray and it'll all be ok, you wouldn't get half as many Cable Preachers asking people to send in their $14.99 for their latest instructions on salvation/finding success/spouse/whatever.

Not to be pedantic but you already have made that judgement - you decided the bible is correct, therefore you've decided that everyone who doesn't believe in it is unsaved ...

(personally I have my own faith and really couldn't care less what anyone else believes will happen to me - each person will recieve their own judgement and I'm content in recieving what is mine and fully expect to have a few choice words with God once I get there ... not least that next time I want a d**n instruction manual rather than having to make things up as I go along ;) )

Same can be said for a lot of events. Why does a sweet little girl get taken, molested, and buried alive in a sexual predators front yard? God can "save" people, but not her? Why don't we ever hear answers for this when it comes to God?

It's why I was pissed to hear all the "Miracle on the Hudson" talk last week. It wasn't a miracle, it was a kickass pilot. If he had crashed the plane, would God have been responsible? Or does he only get credit for the stuff that goes right?

None of it makes sense.

Thats why God works in mysterious ways

We're not talking about what is a religion, we're talking about having a "belief" Atheism IS a belief system.

Atheism is not a religion, nor a dogma, but it IS a belief. Atheists choose to "believe" there is no theistic god.

You can't just total up religious followers on one side and everyone else on the other, thats not how it works.

well put, sir.

:lol: